Another SJW hoax.
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@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
If someone asked me "What does 'cultural appropriation' mean?" and I replied "It's when one culture copies elements of another culture, like white people with dreadlocks", now I'm an SJW without ever having said dreads are bad.
What you need to say, is that in the absence of any context, ...
@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
white dreadlocks are stupid and often done for racist reasons
This actually just reinforces what I'm saying.
Outside of context, how could it possibly be racist or stupid for a white person to have dreads? Dreads weren't "invented" by black people, and even if they were, is it wrong for a black person to wear a double-breasted suit?
@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
I'm arguing a very specific point here, and I'm not going to get dragged into a larger argument right now.
You can't dissect the two.
If I said, proselytizing is bad, am I referring to simply telling someone what I believe, or Bible bashing?
Once you get into philosophical/social arguments, its imperative to specify.
@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
If someone asked me
They'll usually indicate the context for you.
What is a "hot dog"? Is it just a dog that's hot?
In practice it almost always means the food. And you know this because context. If a dog was on fire, you wouldn't associate with the food (and you might even slap the person for making the terrible joke).
We know what "feminism" means, in context. If it's a 70 year old woman talking about it, it probably means something different than if a girl that lives with her mother taking gender studies talks about it.
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@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
Right. And if you said "The kind of people who say Yoga is wrong because of cultural appropriation" I'd see your argument. But you didn't say that, did you?
No, I said what I meant and I meant what I said. The "is wrong" is implied in the use of "cultural appropriation."
@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
I'mma be blunt here: the way you talk, you give the impression all liberals are SJWs and it's impossible to talk about racism without being one.
I can understand why you might think the first bit "all liberals are SJWs," but I don't understand the second bit about not being able to talk about racism. I'm just of the opinion that many people I'd identify as SJWs have ridiculous opinions on that subject.
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@boomzilla said in Another SJW hoax.:
I'm just of the opinion that many people I'd identify as SJWs have ridiculous opinions on that subject.
What is that even supposed to mean?
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@boomzilla said in Another SJW hoax.:
not being able to talk about racism
I say "racism is bad"
You hear "Every white person is racist and Yami's an SJW"
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@xaade said in Another SJW hoax.:
Dreads weren't "invented" by black people
If you don't even understand how hair works, I'm not talking about this with you either.
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@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
If someone asked me "What does 'cultural appropriation' mean?" and I replied "It's when one culture copies elements of another culture, like white people with dreadlocks", now I'm an SJW without ever having said dreads are bad.
Because you're not defining the term correctly. There is a very negative connotation to that term. The wikipedia link you provided definitely went into that.
@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
@boomzilla said in Another SJW hoax.:
not being able to talk about racism
I say "racism is bad"
You hear "Every white person is racist and Yami's an SJW"
No. If you said "racism is bad" I'd agree with you. I've said that myself many times.
@aliceif said in Another SJW hoax.:
@boomzilla said in Another SJW hoax.:
I'm just of the opinion that many people I'd identify as SJWs have ridiculous opinions on that subject.
What is that even supposed to mean?
For instance, opinions like, "Black people can't be racist."
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@boomzilla If I thought you actually wanted to know, I could have a long discussion about the various types of racism. But I suspect you'd just brand me an SJW and start trolling me constantly until I shut up.
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@boomzilla said in Another SJW hoax.:
For instance, opinions like, "Black people can't be racist."
That was not an answer to my question.
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There you go again.
Please, use facts.
@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
I say "racism is bad"
You hear "Every white person is racist and Yami's an SJW"Generally no.
But when [person] is frothing at the mouth on YouTube, I'd generally make that association because of the context.
If @boomzilla were to say "racism is bad", I wouldn't expect all that context.
@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
I could have a long discussion about the various types of racism
Well, let's go with the dictionary definition and see if any of them fit.
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.Now, go ahead and list all of your types of racism.
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@xaade said in Another SJW hoax.:
go ahead and list all of your types of racism.
Fuck off, I know what you're like when you get your dander up and I'm not interested.
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@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
@boomzilla If I thought you actually wanted to know, I could have a long discussion about the various types of racism. But I suspect you'd just brand me an SJW and start trolling me constantly until I shut up.
If you engaged seriously, so would I. I couldn't possibly comment on your opinions without knowing them.
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@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
I know what you're like when you get your dander up and I'm not interested.
You're not interested in being intellectually honest?
We were just talking about how dictionary definitions matter. So, please, show me how you're suddenly going to hand-waive the definition and generate 10 different types of non-racist social faux pas and label them all as racism, under the assumption that they MUST be occurring because of deep-embedded racism you have never proven even in psychology.
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@aliceif said in Another SJW hoax.:
@boomzilla said in Another SJW hoax.:
For instance, opinions like, "Black people can't be racist."
That was not an answer to my question.
Sorry, I thought it was. Could you rephrase or expand on your question (assuming you're interested in an answer)?
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@xaade said in Another SJW hoax.:
You're not interested in being intellectually honest?
I'm not interested in your bullshit. You like to pick out a single word from a sentence and go on a giant barely-coherent rant about how that makes your opponent the scum of the earth, and I'm not in the mood. I haven't even said anything about it, and you're already so smugly sure you know what I'm going to say, that I'm a liar, and I'm referencing... what the fuck does psychology even have to do with it? I literally only said "types of racism" and you're off on a tangent.
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@boomzilla
You said:I'm just of the opinion that many people I'd identify as SJWs have ridiculous opinions on that subject.
When do you think someone is an "SJW"?
Could it be that your criteria for SJW-ism are related to the "ridiculous opinions" part?
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@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
so smugly sure you know what I'm going to say
It's built into the context you provided.
There's no "different types of racism".
Racism has only one definition, and so any action you say is racist must lead back to the actor's personal belief that their race is superior.
Because that is difficult to prove, any list that has forms of racism almost always makes assumptions about deep-rooted racism that can never be disproven, making the whole exercise non-falsifiable and meaningless.
@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
the scum of the earth
Being intellectually dishonest doesn't make you the scum of the earth. Refusing to re-evaluate your position is terrible, but it still doesn't make you scum.
You become close to scum when you start trampling over everyone's rights and justify it with privilege hierarchy concept.
But even still, that wouldn't make you scum.
You haven't done any of this, so I most certainly don't think of you as scum.
@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
does psychology even have to do with it
Psychology is the study of human behavior under the pretense of a scientific pursuit of that knowledge.
Social Justice is almost always feelings-based arguments that take data and work backwards to non-sequitur presumptions.
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@boomzilla said in Another SJW hoax.:
If you engaged seriously, so would I
Bah. I'm not in the mood to be attacked by the legion of Xaade and Xaade-like crusaders today. Maybe in private someplace.
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@aliceif said in Another SJW hoax.:
When do you think someone is an "SJW"?
Could it be that your criteria for SJW-ism are related to the "ridiculous opinions" part?Yes, it's absolutely related to that. When the subject is something like racism or sexism or some type of *-phobia, typically, though historically it's been seriously wrapped up in anti-capitalism, and I think typically still is.
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@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
Bah. I'm not in the mood to be attacked by the legion of Xaade and Xaade-like crusaders today. Maybe in private someplace.
I can sympathize with that.
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I think this topic needs a 🔥.
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@anotherusername Or a general time-out for everyone. Go and do something useful for a while, folks.
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@Yamikuronue Ok. I'll leave you alone.
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@boomzilla
You didn't answer my first question.
Is advocating "anti-capitalism" a requirement for being an SJW?
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@boomzilla said in Another SJW hoax.:
*-phobia
Attributing mental disorders to shame political opponents.
Pretty sad, since they'll often talk about able-bodied-privilege.
I suppose social-justice privilege is the privilege to use mental conditions as slurs and not be called out on it.
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@anotherusername said in Another SJW hoax.:
I think this topic needs a 🔥.
Shock horror, news at 11: TDWTF thread about "SJW"s gets flamey.
In other news, Blakeyrat isn't too keen on open source
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@anotherusername said in Another SJW hoax.:
I think this topic needs a 🔥.
I disagree. It has been pretty fine for 100 posts.
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We're getting off topic, and onto topics that we disagree about more.
I think it's pretty fair to say, faking a slur on a cake for media attention is bullshit.
The debate was whether said person is doing it to promote social justice by lying about scenarios.
I've heard, straight up, that this was ok because the real scenarios must happen somewhere, and in a vacuum I can understand that argument. However, when it comes to determining how widespread the problem is and how to resolve it, those actions skew the information.
And MOST of the debates aren't the problems themselves, but the solutions for the problems. People just.... don't realize it because they're too busy mud-slinging.
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@xaade said in Another SJW hoax.:
faking a slur on a cake for media attention is bullshit.
I agree, in case it needed to be said. There's dipshits in every group, and I have no problem calling liberal dipshits SJWs, so long as non-dipshit liberals aren't tarred with the same brush.
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@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
I agree, in case it needed to be said
I have to do that all the time, because I'm usually responding to the extreme, and otherwise, people wouldn't be able to tell how moderate I am.
@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
There's dipshits in every group
And that's why I focus on what they're saying and pull the good points out. Almost every single group in history had a good point, at least one. Even Hitler talked about the importance of family being the backbone of society.
On the flipside, I'm more than willing to point out when people say one thing and do another.
@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
so long as non-dipshit liberals aren't tarred with the same brush.
Humans like to categorize.
But at some point they filter down the category to good/evil, take what they like/hate, and then disregard everything else as Not-A-True-Scotsman.
I'm at fault for that too, and I try to correct it where I can.
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@xaade said in Another SJW hoax.:
I try to correct it where I can.
Protip: You're not doing a very good job.
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I think I've made it a point that I don't see you as belonging to the group that say one thing and do another.
But to clarify.
If you were to say, "racism is bad", I wouldn't suspect all the context that I have from people who have made it a point to be intellectually dishonest.
However, "types of racism" is a really big red flag.
I apologize for assuming.
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OTOH, I was pretty sure we were discussing whether political activists do this, and whether it's ok to assume context that doesn't match the dictionary definition.
And that's what I reacted to.
My fault for projecting that onto you.
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@another_sam said in Another SJW hoax.:
What does SJW mean to you?
I'll expand on a definition I gave earlier. I will talk about Culture Warriors here instead of SJWs because Culture Warriors have historically existed on both ends of the "false dilemma" continuum we normally call Left/Right.
If you dismiss everyone who disagrees with you as either uninformed, deluded, or just plain evil, you may be a Culture Warrior. Granted, some people are uninformed, deluded, and just plain evil, but if you see everyone that way, the problem is most likely you.
If you use that judgement that someone who disagrees with you is evil to justify positive action to somehow make life worse for that person, you are definitely a Culture Warrior.
Please note that the above is my personal definition and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of anyone else. YMMV IANAL OMGWTFBBQ
@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
I'mma be blunt here: the way you talk, you give me the impression all liberals are SJWs and it's impossible to talk about racism without being one.
FTFY
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@aliceif said in Another SJW hoax.:
@boomzilla
You said:I'm just of the opinion that many people I'd identify as SJWs have ridiculous opinions on that subject.
When do you think someone is an "SJW"?
Could it be that your criteria for SJW-ism are related to the "ridiculous opinions" part?It is for me. I'll go a little further and state that the ridiculous opinions are often counter to their stated goals.
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@aliceif said in Another SJW hoax.:
@boomzilla
You didn't answer my first question.
Is advocating "anti-capitalism" a requirement for being an SJW?It's not a requirement, but it doesn't hurt. Maybe think of it like a test where you get points for certain things and then if you pass a threshold, you're an SJW. No, I don't have explicit numbers in mind, but that's kind of the idea. It's a fuzzy classification.
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@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
so long as non-dipshit liberals aren't tarred with the same brush.
We have plenty of different brushes.
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@antiquarian said in Another SJW hoax.:
and just plain evil,
That's rarely rarely the case.
People that do everything for selfish reasons are really rare.
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@xaade said in Another SJW hoax.:
However, "types of racism" is a really big red flag.
I would disagree. I think there are certainly different types or ways to think about things / people that are racist.
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@xaade said in Another SJW hoax.:
People that do everything for selfish reasons are really rare.
They generally convince themselves that they're not doing what they do for purely selfish reasons, but I don't think that really changes anything.
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Example, because I really struggle with that...
To me, it's either racist or not, and actual racism is a much smaller slice than people generally accept today.
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Meh, I'm willing to believe that there's always a sliver of a reason for what they're doing, at least initially.
Can they lie to themselves that they are not mostly selfish or mostly attention seeking? Yes.
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@boomzilla said in Another SJW hoax.:
We have plenty of different brushes.
That brings to mind another possible test to see if someone is a Culture Warrior. Tarring everyone who disagrees with the same brush is a pretty good indicator.
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@xaade said in Another SJW hoax.:
Example, because I really struggle with that...
For instance, the white supremacist vs the supporter of quota style affirmative action.
@xaade said in Another SJW hoax.:
To me, it's either racist or not, and actual racism is a much smaller slice than people generally accept today.
s/racis./crime/Now you'd be saying that shoplifting is the same as grand theft auto or murder. There are still useful distinctions to be made even if it's all bad.
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I think most things people classify as racism are actually not so much discrimination against others, as it is preferential treatment for people who have traits you are familiar with. It's just that people of other races tend to have other cultural preferences.
To me, these forms of "racism" are really no different from referring a friend to a job, or hiring your family member without opening the position up to interview.
I mean, can you hire someone just because they also have blonde hair, or green eyes? How is that any different than race?
@boomzilla said in Another SJW hoax.:
There are still useful distinctions to be made even if it's all bad.
In that case, the term "racism" is less important, and we're actually looking at a spectrum, on which some actions are actually neutral.
At that point, the difference between me and a hardcore sjw, is that they have the bar well past what I'd consider a neutral action (one that doesn't discriminate against a minority but doesn't benefit them either).
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@boomzilla said in Another SJW hoax.:
There are still useful distinctions to be made even if it's all bad.
I'd argue that racism is a class of discrimination that's pretty atomic.
Either you think you're superior than the other person because of your race, or you don't.
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@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
(FWIW, white dreadlocks are stupid and often done for racist reasons
Great, nice to know you're impartial in the whole thing as usual. I've known several people who did it for no other reason than that they liked the look, in multiple countries, and I've yet to see any racism involved. Yet I saw what happened when a young blond girl got cornrows.
There's a reason the people who freak out about this stuff are hated.
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In her defense.
@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
white dreadlocks are stupid
Personal opinion.
@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
often done for racist reasons
Could be tested for if we had an objective measurement of "racist reasons". However, "often" leaves it open to even the majority of cases being non-racist.
However, I would find it hard to make a case that someone hates black people and adopts a "black hairstyle".
@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
but Yoga's pretty much cool in my book, as it's usually just done for exercise
OTOH, I don't know what the distinction here is. Again, how would people do Yoga for racist reasons? I suppose if you did it in a mocking manner?
I think the line gets fuzzy somewhere around, "I do it therefore it's probably not often done for racist reasons" being heavily implied when I read the comment.
This is where I'm getting the hypocritical undertone from. But I don't know if that's what's being done here in this comment.
That's, I feel, is an honestly impartial query, or at least an honest attempt at one.
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@xaade As one can see, the ambiguity that identity politics creates, makes it really hard to determine the context, and therefore makes it really easy to just suppose what arguments people are using based on patterns in their construction.
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@xaade said in Another SJW hoax.:
someone hates black people
Racism isn't always hatred. It's the belief that they are inferior. You can think dogs are inferior to humans and still think they're adorable and want to wear a puppy costume for Halloween. Adopting that mentality toward black people is racist. Dreads are not inherently racist, but you can adopt the hairstyle for racist reasons. "It looks good on me" is not a racist reason, but "I want to look like a thug and black people are all thuggish brutes so I'll dress up like one of them to make me look tough" is.
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@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
Racism isn't always hatred. It's the belief that they are inferior.
Good point.
@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
You can think dogs are inferior to humans and still think they're adorable and want to wear a puppy costume for Halloween.
But you can also think they are adorable, but not inferior.
I hypothesize that typical sjw logic is that this is not possible. Adorable assumes inferiority. Which is why, I've observed, they make every case of appropriation into an evil act.
@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
Adopting that mentality toward black people is racist.
As a thought experiment, I agree.
@Yamikuronue said in Another SJW hoax.:
Dreads are not inherently racist, but you can adopt the hairstyle for racist reasons. "It looks good on me" is not a racist reason, but "I want to look like a thug and black people are all thuggish brutes so I'll dress up like one of them to make me look tough" is.
At the point where you begin to suppose that motivation based solely on skin color, you've become discriminatory.
Also, I don't believe I've seen an example that proves a person to be wearing dreads under the pretense of "I like it but they're still inferior".
I'd venture to say that every case I've ever witnessed had no evidence that such a thing was occurring.
Also, if you like dreads because some old Gaelic culture wore dreads, and you're a racist. You aren't adopting dreads for racist reasons. You're just a racist.
