The "Everything Zenimax has Done Wrong with ESO" digest.
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2) The social features in ESO are shit,
Probably true -- making a hash out of chatsystems seems to be a MMO specialty.
There's no RP in ESO, just like there's never been ANY RP in ANY MMOs ever built.
FWIH -- you are correct about ESO. However, the latter half of your statement is demonstratably false -- RP subcommunities pop up in MMOs, but issues of perception and agency keep them firmly flying under the radar in just about all cases.The problem is that every game wants to claim you can build your way, but it will never come to fruition, because it's a logical impossibility.
The only alternative is to make the decisions meaningless and trivial.
Like, give you a bar, make you pick one defensive, one aoe, and one single target ability. Balance the defensives, and make your damage abilities all average out in DPS, with ZERO utility in the game.
Otherwise known as Fable 3.
Why is it that games insist on tying builds to character identities?
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However, the latter half of your statement is demonstratably false
Then please demonstrate it.
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Then please demonstrate it.
Challenge accepted. Would forum threads and chatlogs be sufficient evidence, or do you need a live demonstration?
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My go-to Elder Scrolls character does not use spells. ESO is the first game in the Elder Scrolls brand where that character cannot be successful.
Then 2h has an ability that heals based off stamina.
And there's another ability that uses stamina to heal inside the pvp skill-line.The fact that they locked it so deep in pvp, is fucking frustrating as hell.
But, once you have those two, you can effectively run a no spell build.
You can also use abilities that generate shields and other mechanisms to act defensively.
But it's pretty realistic to recognize that a person that chooses only the bow, cannot effectively solo ALL content.
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Why is it that games insist on tying builds to character identities?
Not following?
You want a rogue that doesn't use stealth in combat?
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You want a rogue that doesn't use stealth in combat?
I want to be able to switch from being a sneaky rogue which relies on crowd-control-like disabling/incapacitating abilities to a full-bore party healer/tank, or vice versa, while still playing the same character, or perhaps even in the middle of combat. EVE lets me do this and more.
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But it's pretty realistic to recognize that a person that chooses only the bow, cannot effectively solo ALL content.
BUT THE STORY MODE IS FORCED SINGLE-PLAYER!!!!! Are you seriously saying I should be punished for choosing this build by not being able to finish the single-player story missions?????
Goddamned, you are an infuriating person. You must work for Zenimax.
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I get your frustration.
But my problem is I honestly cannot come up with an idea that solves this problem. I have a few ideas that may solve the problem for some people. But if people are so stubborn as to forgo ability synergy, or ability diversity, then they have to accept that they built a glass cannon and that there is content they won't be able to complete.
tl;dr edition
- The only possible way to balance the game for bow-only users, and not make content trivial, is to offer some defensive abilities in the bow skill line.
- Would you be willing to take these abilities, and how can they be themed in such a way that they are acceptable for your bow-only user?
- If that idea fails, the only alternative left is to make the single-player-story content trivial.
Can you come up with some other possible outcome to this? Because I'm out of ideas at this point.
long edition
I typically don't like forced single player any more than I like forced multiplayer. So, I don't like the idea of changing the forced single player, to let someone have the excuse to say, your build must be forced to team up.
Now, whereas I would think a bow only based build should be able to compete in the single player missions on equal footing, by doing more damage in exchange for having less defense.
However..........
How do you balance that?
You still haven't answered the question.
I can come up with worse scenarios.
How about someone who drops all their abilities on healing? Do you think you should be able to compete in damage using only light/heavy attacks with a healing staff?
I suppose you might be thinking, well completing single player missions is enough. And a healer like that, probably can. But there's invariably going to be some boss somewhere, where DPSing ASAP is going to be the most effective, or only effective, method.
That said. Unless they offer some form of defensive abilities in the bow skill line. I doubt you'd be able to compete fairly with someone who balances their abilities for multiple scenarios.
Now, if they did have some defensive ability in the bow line, how could it be themed in such a way to convince your bow-only user to take that ability?
The only options left are to make the single player story missions entirely trivial.
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The only options left are to make the single player story missions entirely trivial.
Or to make the single player missions different according to class. I don't know how to even reliably detect what class someone is with the Bethesda levelling system…
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Or to make the single player missions different according to class.
You mean scale them to the capability of the combination of skills they selected?
So if they don't have a heal or bubble or some method of recovery or defense, then scale down the enemies damage.
And if they have too much defense and not enough damage, scale down the enemies health?
In other words, make the content trivial?
I mean, seriously, when's the last time someone's played a shooter, and said, hmm the shotgun isn't working...! But my class is a shotgun only user. I don't know how to use a machine gun!
Like I said before, we can add some kind of "medic skill" and let a person heal using stamina. Potions are already available. And Ultimates make up for not having certain defenses on your bar if you really want to avoid using "magic", but will dissenters choose to use those options.
blakey could similarly say, my character would never use a potion. Then we'd be back at square one.
Even though, if someone did exist in a real life version of the ESO universe, and they didn't have the ability to cast spells, they most certainly would bring potions.
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In other words, make the content trivial?
I was actually thinking about giving totally different missions to the different classes. Some which require out-and-out DPS, possibly with sneak bonuses (which ought to be possible to do with bows if you're good at thinking about the environment), others which need heavy tanking. I've no idea how this would work in reality, especially with a mainly class-less system.
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In that case, there are examples in Skyrim.
You walk up to the Captain of the squad in front of you. He points to the structure behind it.
"We can either use bruteforce and seige the main gate while you sneak through the back. Or you can draw them out of the fort while we sneak through the back."
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Even though, if someone did exist in a real life version of the ESO universe, and they didn't have the ability to cast spells, they most certainly would bring potions.
Or would need to Git Gud. :D
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Going up against a Daedric Prince, just how far do you expect your natural skills to take you?
Oh, and before we go any further. I had only one class skill on my bar when I owned him. Critical Surge. Which healed me for every crit I did. All of my other abilities were dual wield abilities. Except for that ability that I learned from the fighter's guild that taught me how to attack the vital points of a daedra. It made sense to equip that in my fight with a prince.
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Are you saying I'm not "1337" enough to memorize controls, like an insult, or... why did you post this?
No, I was quite honestly figuring that you really wanted the icons. It makes sense. But it's just not important to me.
I'm sorry. I suppose that you are justified in your frustration. I'm not attacking that.
I should rephrase. This argument is not convincing enough for me to complain about it myself. It just doesn't bother me.
But it is a convincing argument for you, and therefore you are justified in being frustrated.
I'll be more careful in the future to make it clear that I'm not trivializing your complaints, but simply commenting on the fact that it doesn't bother me.... specifically.
But trust me. As much as you've complained here, I've complained to them directly and on their forums.
I want the game to be successful. So it is terribly unnerving to watch them make so many mistakes, like a sitcom episode.
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Here's the thing -- a bow comes with an inbuilt defensive ability, and that's the ability to stand off from your target. With that, in a MMO context, comes kiting -- so why is a kiting pure archer not workable for the content in question?
This also illustrates the virtue of not building content in such a way that you can only beat it in one way, which is a common flaw in MMO boss design, IMO. Railroading people tactically and strategically is just as bad as railroading their stories.
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The bits I'm complaining about are all in the forced single player parts of the game. So the answer is easy: adaptive difficulty. You know, the feature that has been an Elder Scrolls staple since Oblivion?
Duh?
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What if they just took combat out of the single player missions.
Make them all quicktime or puzzles.
They have the tech, the last mission shows they do.
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What if they just took combat out of the single player missions.
Sure, why not? I just want to finish the story. I don't give a shit about the combat. Or if you try and fail 3 times in a row, just have a "skip combat" button. People who want the game to be "hard" could click no, and I'd be able to click yes without wasting even more of my time.
Make them all quicktime or puzzles.
Quick time events are significantly worse. Fuck QTEs.
No problem with puzzles, as long as they're reasonably self-contained.
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Arrange these items in order of their respective teams as they won the superbowl from 1990 to 2000.
....
, How would tamriel characters know this information?Look up.
What?
Oh the answer is arranged on the wall behind the spinning pedestals.
Damn you Skyrim.
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Quick time events MUST DIE!
What about the interactive QTE in Metal Gear Rising.
It's still live action, but the controls or perspective shifts when doing things like running down a building.Now, Single Button Activated QTE, are horrible.
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Quick time events MUST DIE!
Meh...I just associated VLC to the
.movextensions and it's not too bad. Now if every fucking iPhone user wouldn't take every other movie upside down or whatever the fuck is the problem there.
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well now i'm not angry anoymore... it took me a good thirty seconds to figure what you were talking about....
well played good sir.
/me puts on a monocle for extra class
I say, well played old chap. well played indeed.
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You mean that iPhone doesn't flip the recording input when the phone is upside down.......
Dodged that bullet.
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I have no clue. My sister sends a lot of movies with her baby, and I end up having to correct the orientation of a lot of them. When it comes to audio / video encoding, I'm like the grumpy cat firefox guy, I just want to watch my niece, not fiddle with shit in my player.
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Do you send the baby back? Or do you just have like a big pile of babies now?
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I just have the cat who got me on tape pooping deal with them. Very talented, that one.
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At the risk of taking a rerailing frog to this thread -- I still haven't heard from @blakeyrat as to how much evidence he wants that there are people out there who RP in MMOs...
Filed under: preempting the
No problem with puzzles, as long as they're reasonably self-contained.
Yeah -- puzzles get rote and trite quickly though, at least in their typical dungeon-crawl form. Either that or they resort to riddles and such, which start falling down when you go to internationalize your game.I personally prefer puzzles that are math/science based, or full-on minigames, but the former are good for freaking people out, and the latter can backfire quickly as well...
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which start falling down when you go to internationalize your game
Hell, they start falling down before that.
The last puzzle I played in ESO, I gave up.
Hint was, arrange these in order of time.
Scroll of Discipline (Rain's Hand)
Scroll of Devotion (Sun's Height)
Scroll of Wisdom (Hearth's Fire)
Scroll of Sacrifice (Frost's Fall)But you were supposed to arrange them in order of the season, as a hint of how the second set were to be arranged in following a martial art.
I mean, some places have seasons that don't follow that weather pattern.
And how was I supposed to associate Hearth's Fire with fall.I had wisdom and discipline backwards as my last guess. (We rain a lot in the fall in my area.)
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What's worse is FFXIV, where they have forced party missions as level gates.
I gave up, because my level range didn't have anyone queuing up for the mission for days.
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Words words words words words words words fucking iPhone user words words words problem words .
Agreed.
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Meh...I just associated VLC to the
.movextensions and it's not too bad. Now if every fucking iPhone user wouldn't take every other movie upside down or whatever the fuck is the problem there.I think this is the archetype "you're holding it wrong" problem.
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I still haven't heard from @blakeyrat as to how much evidence he wants that there are people out there who RP in MMOs.
Zero. He wants no evidence.
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Giving iPhones to babies.
Man,
has this world come to?
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HEY, that's my baby sister you're talking about.
I thought your sister was the one with the baby, not the actual baby...
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Meh, I just felt like yelling or whatever.
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I run a very reasonably priced "getting on people's lawns" service...
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Meh, I just felt like yelling or whatever.
So instead of "iPhone user" he should've ftfy'd "you kids get off my lawn"
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So instead of "iPhone user" he should've ftfy'd "you kids get off my lawn"
Are upside down movies a thing the kids are into these days?
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I don't know, but here's an onion for your belt.
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Are upside down movies a thing the kids are into these days?
You mean they've moved on from uploading vertical videos to YouTube so they have massive black blocks on either side?
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You mean they've moved on from uploading vertical videos to YouTube so they have massive black blocks on either side?
I don't know. I was talking about movies that my sister sends out via email. Hers are all correctly horizontal. Just sometimes upside down.
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So anyway! ESO, gives you a cuirass but no pants.
It's the no-pants MMO.
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I had wisdom and discipline backwards as my last guess. (We rain a lot in the fall in my area.)
Yeah -- some folks don't get the same weather as the developers. :PWhat's worse is FFXIV, where they have forced party missions as level gates.
I gave up, because my level range didn't have anyone queuing up for the mission for days.
Ick! BAD MMO DESIGNER! BAD BAD BAD!
For contrast: EVE's sov system redo proposal
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Reading the last three posts (before this one) in sequence makes me think of MMO designers spanking people without pants. I hear that there are websites for that sort of thing.
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I don't know, I just keep reading 'cuirass' and then I have to stop reading and go away and giggle like a teenager...
Filed under: cuirass
