My first look at an inherited project
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Yeah, but by the time you're in the subjective bit, you're already at the good enough level.
The flood of "Discourse is TRWTF" on this site would like to disagree.
You can subjectively argue whether you like it or not, but clearly we're already firmly in the Quality Art region.
I would agree, but then what about, say, Jackson Pollock? And lets not even get started on "performance art" and other modern abominations.
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"use Python" == "art class"?
You'll have to elaborate a bit further.
There's a way to learn to draw will work initially but limit you going forward (using a projector), and another way that takes more work initially but will eventually allow you to reach your full potential (going to art school).Now replace learning to draw with learning to program.
@dhromed said:I would like to do you one better:
@antiquarian said:Had she started using Python instead
...she would have had no application because she might have given up, regardless of her programming capabilities.At least, that's my Haskell story. Looked like a fun, compact language, but pretty high barrier to entry-- and that's not just the language, that's everything around it.
Python has a very low barrier to entry, and I've seen code that reflected that. However, a developer who wants to learn can read their tutorials and will be guided toward best practices.
Unfortunately, Haskell doesn't have that yet because they're still working out what their best practices are. Also, Haskell doesn't really want a low barrier to entry. They've (maybe) jokingly prided themselves on not ever being ready for production use, as it allows them to keep their "purity".
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The flood of "Discourse is TRWTF" on this site would like to disagree.
We can argue the design decisions, but it's difficult to argue that @codinghorror and @sam are terrible shit programmers that should be filtered out and rejected during a hiring process.Jackson Pollock?
I try to not think about that.
"performance art" and other modern abominations.
I'm limiting myself to the draws on the papers.
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I would agree, but then what about, say, Jackson Pollock?
Are you alluding to the sort of art school Tracey Emin clearly attended?
'Real Art Exhibit 1':
'Real Art Exhibit 2:
What #2 could have looked like:
Filed under: FFS, Why do I have to underline my links to visually show that there are two in a row?
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I have Art in my room and didn't even know it???
Indeed. Selling it for £800K-£1.2m is another matter however:
...he thinks the estimate of £800,000 to £1.2 million is too low for such a significant work. “It’s historic,” he said. “It’s priceless.”
... gushed her New York dealer David Maupin.
The lot of them need to get real jobs. Or die in a fire. One of the two; I don't mind.
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The lot of them need to get real jobs.
And make up their bed. Didn't their mommy learn them anything?
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And lets not even get started on "performance art" and other modern abominations.
I, for one, find vaginal knitting to be very artistic.
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Are you alluding to the sort of art school Tracey Emin clearly attended?
Absolutely. And probably every "artist" who would use the word "challenge" when describing their goals in creating art.
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@faoileag said:
I have Art in my room and didn't even know it???
Indeed. Selling it for £800K-£1.2m is another matter however
Of course. I would probably aim at £2.0m and let myself get talked down to £1.7m. That way the customer thinks he's got a bargain, I can stop working and develop my own forum software in Haskell and everyone's happy.And should Tracy show up there's always the couch to sleep on.
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There's a way to learn to draw will work initially but limit you going forward, and another way that takes more work initially but will eventually allow you to reach your full potential
Ok, I accept that this is true in the general sense, but I'm not sure that starting with VB is clearly the limiter, and that Python is clearly the grand realizer of potential.
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every "artist" who would use the word "challenge" when describing their goals in creating art.
Right or wrong, you have to agree that a constant stream of ridicule presents a challenge.
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I, for one, find vaginal knitting to be very artistic.
You may find "The PlopEgg Painting Performance # 1 - A Birth Of A Picture" interesting then.
"Milo Moire" for those wanting another (piss) 'artiste' to ignore. Searches for the above may contain images NSFW.
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I would agree, but then what about, say, Jackson Pollock? And lets not even get started on "performance art" and other modern abominations.
That's easy. Use the Rush Limbaugh Test. If Rush Limbaugh can do it, it's not art.
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Ok, I accept that this is true in the general sense, but I'm not sure that starting with VB is clearly the limiter, and that Python is clearly the grand realizer of potential.
It's not always inherent to the languages themselves, the community makes a difference and there is self-selection involved. VB with its instant gratification GUI tended to attract developers who just want to get something working and don't want to do the extra work needed to reach their full potential. Python doesn't get as many of those.
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Right or wrong, you have to agree that a constant stream of ridicule presents a challenge.
Nah, it's actually pretty easy to keep it going with those artists.
Filed Under: Challenge: Missing the point deliberately? or not?
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I do see what you did there.
But it presents a challenge to me, though. My stream eventually ends. I don't have that kind of stamina.
ladies...
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Basically, I'm using a type safe MVC framework, which is built upon a fast app server.
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Is that like Rule 34?
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it's really easy to see whether art is very good
I was going to say "unless it's modern 'art'", but that seems to have been covered already.
Filed under: Posting while people in other time zones are asleep is a barrier to... uh... something.
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The primary difference being that it's really easy to see whether art is very good. It's very hard to determine if a program or code is very good.
Rubbish. A significant number of highly influential artists, whose work is now considered "classic", have found themselves in the classic "artist starving in a garret" position, as their art has not been considered as anything better than mediocre during their lifetime.The quality of art is subjective, and largely subject to the mores of the time.
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The primary difference being that it's really easy to see whether art is very good. It's very hard to determine if a program or code is very good.
Y'know, that's probably the first time I've heard anybody say that...
I mean, a program either works or it doesn't, it either can be maintained at a reasonable cost or it can't, but how do we say whether one painting is better than another?
Filed under: Check if it's modern art.
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I guess I'll have to elaboratify!
bad art:
good art:
( http://mandrykart.wordpress.com )You'll notice the obvious difference in quality.
The thing is that if this was programming, the first picture is seen time and time again (hence the website TDWTF), and produced by people who are receiving money for it.
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Given that the art business (in a somewhat broader sense than coloured splotches on paper) is something I happen to be pretty familiar with, I believe that the situation is not dissimilar.
The key difference being that in art the WTF is built in - witness posts higher in the thread.
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bad art:
I've framed and put similar pictures on my walls when my children did them, and I still love the pictures. This picture kind of looks like a younger version of my dad.
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Technical quality does not make art "good" or "bad". Technical quality is like vocabulary -- a means of expression. It is not expression.
The cowboy is vapid. It says nothing. It's just an advertisement for the artist's technique.
The Hank Hill painting is clearly personal. It means something to somebody, even if it doesn't mean too much to me personally.
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The thing is that if this was programming, the first picture is seen time and time again (hence the website TDWTF), and produced by people who are receiving money for it.
But, to drag the analogy, the hacky, ugly code often serves a critical purpose, while the pretty-looking code adhering to all styling guidelines can still be crap.
I'm sorta on the fence in that matter, but ultimately I think art doesn't need to be pretty in itself, if it conveys an interesting message.
Then again, you could argue "I can paint a black square on a white background and be called an artist, suck my dick" is also kind of a message...
Hank Hill
Whew, so it's not just me.
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I'm sorta on the fence in that matter, but ultimately I think art doesn't need to be pretty in itself, if it conveys an interesting message.
I agree with this, though I might stretch the vocabulary a bit and say that something communicating an interesting message is its own sort of beauty. Postmodern bullshit is still bullshit. If it requires explanation from the creator, it might be some sort of inside joke, but most likely it's someone trying to get paid without doing anything useful.
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someone trying to get paid without doing anything useful
So... just like internet startups, then?
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That's true. But for some reason, they're still able to get government grants to produce their (sometimes literally) shit.
From what I've seen, government grants are often related to bad code.
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I agree with this, though I might stretch the vocabulary a bit and say that something communicating an interesting message is its own sort of beauty. Postmodern bullshit is still bullshit. If it requires explanation from the creator, it might be some sort of inside joke, but most likely it's someone trying to get paid without doing anything useful.
I agree in principle, but the average person is just too uninformed to get the message unless it is right in their face, about a subject they know. Everybody in America would get the message behind a stylized picture of Oscar the Grouch, done in the style of a "HOPE" poster.
On the other hand, the black square painting was a part of a triptych, which included a red square. It was about communism dominating Russia. It is an expression of its time. But it still gets reduced to "fuck you I'm an artist".
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I agree with this, though I might stretch the vocabulary a bit and say that something communicating an interesting message is its own sort of beauty. Postmodern bullshit is still bullshit. If it requires explanation from the creator, it might be some sort of inside joke, but most likely it's someone trying to get paid without doing anything useful.
That type of "art" is simply an opinion, nothing more.
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I agree in principle, but the average person is just too uninformed to get the message unless it is right in their face, about a subject they know.
I don't think I'd apply an "average person" test.
On the other hand, the black square painting was a part of a triptych, which included a red square. It was about communism dominating Russia. It is an expression of its time. But it still gets reduced to "fuck you I'm an artist".
That's probably on the verge of reasonable. It doesn't require typical postmodernist leaps of faith. And I suppose a little context about the artist probably helps, too.
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I can't find a good enough quote to continue on so fuck it, hitting the thread reply instead.
I work in PHP daily. Yes, shit is broken and inconsistent. Yes, I hate it for that. IMHO, they should've just made a clean cut with PHP5, backwards compatibility be damned.
But you know, I can work with mysql_real_escape_string_wtf (well, I don't I use PDO, but that's beside the point). You know what pisses me off the most? You can't override functions properly: PHP doesn't differentiate between different function signatures. So here I am, declaring protected functions and using reflection to get the damned thing to call the right one when it should just be a matter of declaring it with different parameters.
And if I can do that kind of stuff, regardless of how stupid that is, that means you can do some wild things with it, there is a potential.
And while there are a lot of instances where you can blame PHP itself, it's biggest flaw are it's users. Not inexperienced ones, but the ones who outright refuse to learn anything new ("prepared statements, what's that? just use mysql_real_escape_i_mean_it_this_time and ignore all other benefits of prepared statements. durr.").
Unfortunately, it would seem those assholes write most of the PHP tutorials out there...
Filed under: dooomeeeed
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I hate to say it but function overloading always seems like a WTF to me. I've come across it in C# and I don't like it. It feels so ambiguous to me but maybe it's just me using it wrong, I dunno.
The problem with using PDO is that there's still ridiculous hosting out there that doesn't support 'modern' features. FFS, 5.3 is officially 'maintenance only' and yet there are hosts I know of that still offer 5.2. Heck, some hosts are still offering 4.4 as an option even though that EOL'd in 2007. But yes, the users are by and large the worst. Not all of us, just most of us.
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Technical quality does not make art "good" or "bad". Technical quality is like vocabulary -- a means of expression. It is not expression.
The idea that art is primarily about expression killed poetry and classical music, and set painting and sculpture back at least 100 years. We had much better art back in the Renaissance and Baroque periods when it was about creating something beautiful (but not necessarily pretty or pleasant to look at).
The expression will happen whether you want it to or not. I read a book a few years ago written by a professional artist about how to get into the business. He described going to Japan with his portfolio to meet a collector. The collector could tell just by looking at the paintings what was going on in the artist's life, including a divorce.
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I hate to say it but function overloading always seems like a WTF to me. I've come across it in C# and I don't like it. It feels so ambiguous to me but maybe it's just me using it wrong, I dunno.
I like to use it, but only when the situation clearly calls for it. I never try to force it, and I think that's where most people that use it go wrong.
You do have to get in the mind of the person who will be calling the different signatures, and use the overloaded methods to get them to use the correct arguments for what they want to accomplish.
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What irks me is that folks who go on about "expression" seldom have anything of interest to express.
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I like to use it, but only when the situation clearly calls for it. I never try to force it, and I think that's where most people that use it go wrong.
To clarify, my problem weren't necessarily signatures. I know I had some problem with overloading a parent method in a child class. I think it was because I was using __call as well and it got called when it actually had a matching function to call.
Can't remember what the actual problem was off the top of my head. I'll look into the code tomorrow, right now I have a headache and I don't think PHP is gonna help.
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To clarify, my problem weren't necessarily signatures. I know I had some problem with overloading a parent method in a child class. I think it was because I was using __call as well and it got called when it actually had a matching function to call.
Can't remember what the actual problem was off the top of my head. I'll look into the code tomorrow, right now I have a headache and I don't think PHP is gonna help.
Overloading, or overriding?
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That just solved a whole bunch of confusion.
Overloading doesn't work either though. But I think I needed it a grand total of one time so I just made it a new method.
Filed under: copy-paste counts as code reuse, right?
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Overloading doesn't work either though. But I think I needed it a grand total of one time so I just made it a new method.
function doStuff2() { ... }
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Haskell is the vim of languages, so let's not go there.
That, or Scala is. I mostly grok what's going on in Haskell (provided I think very carefully and take my time) but Scala's foncusing.
Filed under: I tell a lie above; there's APL and J…
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If only that were true. They added all sorts of "helpful" features, such as having your GET, POST and cookie data be automatically escaped (you know, so you can't forget when you chuck them straight into a SQL query).
Of course, they've deprecated and/or outright removed those shitty things, but it sure took them a long time.
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Disagree. Renaissance and Baroque (and Rococo, for that matter) art most definitely had a message.
Continental art was Roman Catholic, and consistently included religious tropes to affirm the religious message. Baroque art was a reaction to protestantism. The ornateness of it was literally a message of rejection of simple protestant aesthetics. (A shaker dresser is definitely beautiful, but it is not Baroque.) Rococo is interesting, being more baroque than baroque. It's kind of the first "modern" art movement. I'm not prepared to talk about rococo right now, though.
That said, there is what is called "experimental art", which is the study/practice of new theories of aesthetics. It does not have to be "pretty" -- it just has to try to be beautiful, in whatever twisted way the artist wrote in his manifesto. Some of this is really good "weird for weird's sake" stuff. Very challenging to appreciate.
YBlog - Haskell web programming
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