npm
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@lucas1 said:
It like a saying a carpenter shouldn't know how to use a chisel
More like saying that soldering irons ought to be designed in ways that make it harder to pick them up by the hot end.
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@lucas1 said:
Like with any project there is a finite amount of resources, most of their users don't use Windows and most of their contributors don't either. So I am not surprised Windows bugs aren't a priority.
if you support windows, you support windows.
NPM explicitly supports windows. if they deprioritize windows bugs then they should remove windows from their list of supported platforms because they don't support windows anymore.
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@lucas1 said:
the argument you are making is essentially I shouldn't have to know how to use the tools of the trade.
The problem is that there's that many cases of tools being layered on tools, and these stacks are getting really deep. Should wanting to get a bulletin board going require learning the algorithms that
npmuses to manage its local cache? One of those is really quite far removed from the other…
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@accalia said:
NPM explicitly supports windows. if they deprioritize windows bugs then they should remove windows from their list of supported platforms because they don't support windows anymore.
This argument would be fine if they are selling it, but they are not.
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@dkf said:
Should wanting to get a bulletin board going require learning the algorithms that npm uses to manage its local cache?
I am not saying that. This is software defect and I certainly never experienced it and doubt that it is exceedingly common.
What I am saying is that to use npm, you really only need to know and handful of commands, same with Git (as it was mentioned). I don't think it is onerous to expect someone to learn the very basics ... which is what is being argued here.
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@RaceProUK said:
The problem with a lot of open-source software (and to a lesser extent, closed-source), is that not enough attention is paid to the UX; the developers work on what they're fascinated by i.e. the new shiny, but few take the time to work on what is necessary i.e. UX and documentation.
The thing that bugs me is, why aren't more developers interested in the UX? That's by far the most important and interesting thing about building software.
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@boomzilla said:
What the fuck is wrong with developers like you using cloud based crap that doesn't work with open source based crap that's designed not to work‽ You all should feel horrible life quenching shame.
This was both not hyperbolic enough and insufficiently spittle-flecked. 7/10, room for improvement.
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@Yamikuronue said:
It pointed out something I think a lot of developers overlook: nobody wants to spend time learning tools, they're forced into it by bad interaction design.
Raymond Chen had a great article once about the "wizard" interface Windows introduced back in Windows 95, and how all developers (even those on the Windows team) hated them, but every time they tested the wizarded-task (like setting up a printer) against the same task without a wizard, it worked like a thousand times better.
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@blakeyrat said:
That's by far the most important and interesting thing about building software.
I agree; as frustrating as it can be sometimes, it is a lot of fun. I think though that a lot of devs don't like it because, when it comes to UX code, you can't really write the sort of code devs measure their e-peens with.
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@cartman82 said:
Hmm... isn't it the other way around? Linux commands can switch execution mode, on Windows you need to restart the application with elevated permissions?
All I can tell you is when I was using Ubuntu server, pretty much every task was, "run a command. Get a vague error message? Well 99.9% of the time it turns out that was because the guide you're reading forgot to mention sudo. use sudo, no vague error message."
Maybe the Ubuntu CLI is technically capable of doing it better, but it certainly didn't use that capability back when I was trying it in 2013 or so.
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@flabdablet said:
there are more and more tasks that no amount of careful interaction design is going to make any easier.
Example?
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@blakeyrat said:
But if I work from home I won't be able to talk to the one other guy in the company who's gotten it working.
If you get it working, are you going to document it for the next people who have the same problem?
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@lucas1 said:
It like a saying a carpenter shouldn't know how to use a chisel ... it is ridiculous.
I'm trying to sit on the chair (simply run the application.) If that task requires a chisel, then someone somewhere fucked up a lot.
I don't do FE development, I don't want to do FE development, and the FE guys at my workplace probably wouldn't let me even if I wanted to. BUT I STILL NEED THE CHISEL! WHY!?
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@blakeyrat The thing that might have been what tripped you up, and 99.9% of all fucking instructions forget to mention, is that when giving instructions most authors use the convention of:
$ <command>means "execute as user
# <command>means "execute asroot"To people used to Linux and instructions for it it's obvious after 10th time they encounter it, but most people are terrible at mentioning this anywhere on their site/blog/docs.
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@accalia said:
NPM explicitly supports windows. if they deprioritize windows bugs then they should remove windows from their list of supported platforms because they don't support windows anymore.
There's still priorities. And one can imagine how a bug that affects a relatively small number of users on a particular platform could be triaged below many other things. That said, I don't know the details of this particular thing, so maybe that doesn't really apply.
It's all probably bad hardware anyways.
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@lucas1 said:
I don't think it is onerous to expect someone to learn the very basics ... which is what is being argued here.
What you're ignoring is that I know the basics, I executed the commands exactly as instructed, and the program didn't work. Not only did it not work, but it also threw up an error that's basically impossible to diagnose. (And not only by me; Google it. You'll find the most common solution is to wipe everything, reinstall it all, and start over from scratch. Which is, indeed, what I had to do.)
The "wrong command" in the OP you've been bitching about was simply a typo. I can't keep CLI commands straight; that's why I try to avoid the thing whenever possible. And yes, it's possible the first time I had a problem with NPM it was also due to a typo; I didn't keep enough history to be sure.
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@FrostCat said:
If you get it working, are you going to document it for the next people who have the same problem?
Yes I am. I already have the Confluence up, it's not completed for obvious reasons, but the first few steps are there. Including a fix for a grunt problem that a co-worker and I figured out after a lot of trial and error but I didn't post here because fuck all y'all.
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@blakeyrat said:
@RaceProUK said:
The problem with a lot of open-source software (and to a lesser extent, closed-source), is that not enough attention is paid to the UX; the developers work on what they're fascinated by i.e. the new shiny, but few take the time to work on what is necessary i.e. UX and documentation.
The thing that bugs me is, why aren't more developers interested in the UX? That's by far the most important and interesting thing about building software.
Because it's fucking hard and even minor changes can result in hours of soul destroying work. When you're on the backend you can work mostly alone and everyone has a good understaniding of the work involved. But with UX you're in constant communication with users that don't understand that moving a button to a different position isn't as simple as a drag and drop.
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No you are building the chair, the chair isn't finished, and
younpm is the tool.
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@blakeyrat said:
What you're ignoring is that I know the basics
I wasn't replying to you and you are taking that out of context.
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@DogsB said:
But with UX you're in constant communication with users that don't understand that moving a button to a different position isn't as simple as a drag and drop.
Is in WinForms. And WebForms, more or less. Was in HyperCard. Why are we using such poor tools? Why were tools for GUI layout better in the mid-90s than they are now? Ask yourself that.
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@DogsB said:
Because it's fucking hard and even minor changes can result in hours of soul destroying work.
UX may be the most important but it's certainly far from the most interesting work for most people. Some people are really good at re-engineering stuff, some aren't. I enjoy it sometimes, and even sometimes I've done a good job of it, but I've also failed miserably at it.
I'm mostly "interested" in solving problems. Sometimes those are UX issues, but a lot of the time they aren't. And it's often totally not obvious when you've come up with something that other people hate.
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@boomzilla said:
And it's often totally not obvious when you've come up with something that other people hate.
That's why you always test with your actual users. (Or as close to "your actual users" as you can get.) First before you implement it (using PowerPoint or flash cards.) Then after you have the skeleton working. Then again when you're finished.
There's never any mystery if you're doing it right.
EDIT: I should also add that virtually never is "like" the goal. The clearest example is the Ribbon when it was added to Office 2007. People hate the Ribbon. Some people still do a decade later. But everybody they tested using it (including those who hated it) perform the task faster than those not using it.
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@blakeyrat said:
That's why you always test with your actual users.
Ugh...like users know what they want. Seriously. They are often horrible about telling you that they don't like something.
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@boomzilla said:
Ugh...like users know what they want.
They know what they want. They don't know what they need.
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@boomzilla said:
Ugh...like users know what they want.
I said you TEST with them, not you let them design it. Please read the words on the screen without adding your own words, thank you.
And generally you have a goal you're working towards which isn't whether they "like" the task. Typically the goal is "can they complete the task at all", followed by, "how quickly can they complete the task".
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@blakeyrat said:
fuck all y'all.
First off, since I don't use node or NPM, your lack of help affects me not at all. Second, I hope you enjoy being exactly what you complain about in others. You're just about as much an asshole as Linus Torvalds.
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@blakeyrat said:
Why are we using such poor tools?
Must be because you haven't written good ones yet.
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@blakeyrat said:
And generally you have a goal you're working towards which isn't whether they "like" the task. Typically the goal is "can they complete the task at all", followed by, "how quickly can they complete the task".
Ah yes. The stopwatch and cattle prod theory of UX design.
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@blakeyrat said:
I said you TEST with them, not you let them design it. Please read the words on the screen without adding your own words, thank you.
Your words here don't make me want to change what I wrote at all. Maybe you just have better users than I do.
@dkf said:
They know what they want. They don't know what they need.
I think my statement about blakey's users probably applies to you, too.
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@flabdablet said:
Ah yes. The stopwatch and cattle prod theory of UX design.
As opposed to what?
Look, the purpose of software is to do a task. So why wouldn't you measure:
- Whether the user can do the task
- How long it takes them
I'm open to all kinds of testing philosophies, but I think they should all include at least point 1 above.
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@boomzilla said:
Your words here don't make me want to change what I wrote at all. Maybe you just have better users than I do.
If you're not going to take the discussion seriously, just stop replying.
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@blakeyrat said:
If you're not going to take the discussion seriously, just stop replying.
Why do you think I'm not taking this seriously? Most of my users are shit when it comes to feedback of any sort.
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@boomzilla You're not asking them for feedback, you're measuring their performance.
Look, whatever, it's obvious you don't care. I give up. You win again.
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@flabdablet said:
there are more and more tasks that no amount of careful interaction design is going to make any easier.
That's fair, but also, no reason to give up. If the software is harder to use than the task is to complete, you've made the user's life worse. I mean, let's say the software is for doing rocket science; it can't make someone without rocket science knowledge an expert, but you shouldn't have to be an IT guru to make the software work, you know?
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@lucas1 said:
This argument would be fine if they are selling it, but they are not.
I was going to reply to your earlier post, but then I saw this and now I'm convinced you're just trolling.
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@DogsB said:
But with UX you're in constant communication with users that don't understand that moving a button to a different position isn't as simple as a drag and drop.
That's not UX. That's front-end development. UX is the process of interaction design and usability testing. Nobody does it anymore, they just wing it as they do front-end development.
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Nice way to shut down the conversation.
Let me re-iterate. I think it is quite acceptable that most people learn the basic usage of the tooling they are using. Because you are paid to.
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@blakeyrat said:
Look, whatever, it's obvious you don't care.
For a guy who hates when people read meaning into what he wrote, you sure do a lot of that yourself, you hypocrite.
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@lucas1 Yes, but apparently you think quality is directly indicated by price tag, so...
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When did I say that?
I implied the complaint is more legitimate, I never said anything about price being an indicator of software quality.
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@lucas1 You literally said that the argument that they should support the platforms they claim to support is invalid because they're not selling the product.
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@blakeyrat said:
@flabdablet said:
- Whether the user can do the task
- How long it takes them
2 is probably the most overlooked point. If I can write a once off xml diff script faster than it takes using the tool I'm working on something is very fucking wrong. Which incidentally is what I'm doing at the moment.
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No I didn't.
It quite a valid complaint to say "Windows support isn't as good as Linux or OSX", however because it is an open source project they are going to prioritize users on the more popular platforms in this case Linux and OSX because they have the loudest voice. I think that is fine as for all intents and purposes node and the tooling is free of charge. They don't have any obligation to you.
If they were charging a license to use and they were charging the same whatever the platform, I would fucking well expect them to fix defects on my platform of choice in a timely manner.
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@Yamikuronue said:
@DogsB said:
But with UX you're in constant communication with users that don't understand that moving a button to a different position isn't as simple as a drag and drop.
That's not UX. That's front-end development. UX is the process of interaction design and usability testing. Nobody does it anymore, they just wing it as they do front-end development.
If you can help me sell the idea please God do. Refer to post above.
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@lucas1 said:
No I didn't.
Are you sure?
@lucas1 said:
This argument would be fine if they are selling it, but they are not.
Was in response to
@accalia said:
NPM explicitly supports windows. if they deprioritize windows bugs then they should remove windows from their list of supported platforms because they don't support windows anymore.
So
@Yamikuronue said:
You literally said that the argument that they should support the platforms they claim to support is invalid because they're not selling the product.
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Did you read the rest of my reply? Obviously you didn't.
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@lucas1 I did actually, and it changes nothing
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So you think then that you exactly the same expectations of something which costs nothing and something that is a few hundred dollars / pounds?
I certainly wouldn't.
As far as I am concerned node works well enough on Windows for the majority of use cases. I use it every day and I don't have any problems.
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@lucas1 Don't twist my words; you know damn well what I mean
