America vs Europe
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Actually, the Netherlands is going to get some money back from Brussels anyway so that might help.
As the leader of 'De Nederlandsche Bank' said on the news last week: the Guilder was not sold under its value, and I tend to believe him. The fact that all the bars and pubs doubled their prices is not the fault of the euro. Stuff like home appliances (TVs, washing machines, etc) actually got cheaper, but people don't seem to notice that.
And even if everything has gotten more expensive, it's jsut natural inflation. I'm not stuck for money and I do not have the greatest paying job in the country, that's for sure. Still I can spend it on a lot of things I consider fun and still save up too, which I could not do at the time of the Guilder (but I had a different job then).
Drak
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@Katja said:
@Drak said:
I haven't thought much about this. Voting... It's still new for me. [:P]So how are you all going to vote on the European Constitution?
Personally I have not decided although I have debated about it with a few people.
Drak
But I do know that I don't like our current government since it's too Christian. Especially with out prime Minister "Harry Potter" Balkenende. I don't like them to succeed so I probably vote 'NO'.
Then again, there's also some referendum site here where you can answer several multiple-choice questions and see how well this constitution complies to my ideas about what it should be. I barely scored a 50% so I confirms that I am against it. To have any doubts, I would have needed a score of over 75%. (And over 90% for a definite yes.) But with 50% my vote will be 'NO'...
That's something that I can't understand... I mean - you vote "NO" cause you don't like your government, not because you dont like the European constitution. That is imho a pritty stupid thing to do - and they did the same in France...
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This seems to be a common problem; the governments are often leaned on
to promote it by Europe, and the government is often unpopular. They'll
have the same problem in the UK if it comes to a vote there; they're
still no the most-loved after the Iraq thing, and recent torture isn't
helping. Our (Ireland) government is just generically untrustable.
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Well, there were a lot of no's here in the Netherlands, and the top 5 reasons for saying 'No' made me want to cry.
Drak
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@Drak said:
As the leader of 'De Nederlandsche Bank' said on the news last week: the Guilder was not sold under its value, and I tend to believe him. The fact that all the bars and pubs doubled their prices is not the fault of the euro. Stuff like home appliances (TVs, washing machines, etc) actually got cheaper, but people don't seem to notice that.
Yeah, but the difference is that you might buy a TV once every 10 years, same for washing machines and other appliances. Yet my weekly day out in the city has become a bit too expensive for my liking. Paying about €4 for just a glass of cola isn't that unusual anymore. In the local supermarket I can buy about three large botthes for the same amount. So this means me and my friends just won't go out that often anymore. It's sad but true.
Besides, combine this with the fact that we also have to pay quite a bit to park near the bar or pay a lot for just a cab drive, it's just no fun anymore. And our public transport? Well, maybe a good place for the guys but if you have to get in a crowded night bus around 1 in the night, you can just feel how much attention a girl can get in town... And I mean literally... If you're lucky, you can find a place to sit. If you're unlucky, some jerk just starts rubbing against you all the time... So no thanks, no bus for me...
It's quite sad, though. If I don't go out a whole month, I can buy a new TV for all the money it saved me...
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@KoFFiE said:
That's something that I can't understand... I mean - you vote "NO" cause you don't like your government, not because you dont like the European constitution. That is imho a pritty stupid thing to do - and they did the same in France...
No, I voted "No" simply because that referendum site told me that my ideas are about 50% of what the constitution would be. On the other 50% the constitution and I just had different opinions. This too helped me to decide to vote no.
And it is more than just disagreeing with our current government. Then again, such a thing is easy to claim since anyone who disagrees with a governmental decision is technically against the government, right? The things I also fear is that the Netherlands would just lose it's identity. If you look at the numbers, the Dutch people are contributing the most to the EU per citizen! We are the ones who pay the most per person! I think every citizen in the EU would have to pay the same amount. As it is now, the system is too unfair. Since we just have a few citizens, we would not have much influence. Yet we are the ones who have to pay the most in our contribution.
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But the amount you pay isn't actually going to change because of the constitution, you know...
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@rsynnott said:
But the amount you pay isn't actually going to change because of the constitution, you know...
Isn't it? Apparantly it has become part of the new negotiations now. The Dutch people has shown that they dislike the EU as it is right now. The French has given a similar example. And in Italy, some plan has been suggested to reintroduce the Italian Lire again, to fight their weak economy or whatever.
And it is clear that the average civilian in the EU is barely committed to the EU as a whole. And why not? Things haven't really improved in the Netherlands after the Euro was introduced. The constitution doesn't promise more improvements either. Not for the Netherlands, at least. It just means that we lose more control about our own country. And that is unacceptable for me.
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@rsynnott said:
But the amount you pay isn't actually going to change because of the constitution, you know...
The constitution is an important step in EU:s develpopment, it will make EU more unified and more powerful. For instance in article 11:4
The Union shall have competence to define and implement a common foreign and security policy, including the progressive framing of a common defence policy.
Personally I find that stuff quite scary, they are building a super state and I'm gonna be a part of it. Personally I'd much prefer more loose cooperation of the states.
And it's not the fact that it costs our nation more than a billion euro per year, even though we'd have much more use of it to improe our health care or our schools. It's more about that a democracy can't handle that amount of people, just look at the election participation, in the EU-parliment election the numbers are much lower than in the local elections, the same thing goes for USA. When the power gts to far from the people we can't really call it a democracy any more.
So I'll do anything in my power to stop and halter the develoent of EU, sadly I don't think we have much chance, unless people in general get more involved in politics they won't even know what we are standing before. And to hope that all peopele would care about politics is like hoping that all vb coders care about making good, senible code.
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And here in sweden our government doesnt even dare to let the people
vote, because we would vote no. And if we had a vote about leaving EU,
we would leave ASAP.
And the governmets reaction to this? "We have to educate the people,
they do not think as we do". Thats democracy for you. The ruling few
decides what the people should want. And if we dont, then its education
time. The soviet regime comes to mind.
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Don't you Europeans get tired of the secret police hounding you?
I imagine the Gestapo tactics would get old after a while. 8-)
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@CPound said:
Don't you Europeans get tired of the secret police hounding you?
I imagine the Gestapo tactics would get old after a while. 8-)
Well, yes. In sweden we've had an increase of people who thinks we
should reinstitute our king. After all, he only costs about 3 billion
every year. Our government costs 300 billion. And its so much easier to
revolt against a stupid king. (only one guy to kill, heh)
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@Katja said:
And in Italy, some plan has been suggested to
reintroduce the Italian Lire again, to fight their weak economy or
whatever.
The economy will be in better shape if they would let their corrupt
little souls be a little bit less corrupt. Dare I mention the
whole banking fiasco and which ABN AMRO may now buy after all?
This will mean a huge improvement for Italy already.
And it is clear that the average civilian in the EU is barely committed to the EU as a whole. And why not? Things haven't really improved in the Netherlands after the Euro was introduced. The constitution doesn't promise more improvements either. Not for the Netherlands, at least. It just means that we lose more control about our own country. And that is unacceptable for me.
The draft for a constitution was anything but a constitution. The people from the Renaissance would've wiped their collective butt with it.
Anyway, I feel connected to Europe, but the strength lies in utilising the various differences of the people, there's no common 'European'.
Of course, the Netherlands will now be one of the EU countries paying the most contribution per capita to the EU to get the other member states up to par on economical level. Wonder if it will help in the end.
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@Ulvhamne said:
And the governmets reaction to this? "We have to educate the people,
they do not think as we do". Thats democracy for you. The ruling few
decides what the people should want. And if we dont, then its education
time. The soviet regime comes to mind.
Hej,
hur står det till?
Seems the Netherlands is not the only EU country with its parliamentary
head up its own arse. I seriously wonder how narcistic you have
to be to act so darn patriarchal.
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@rsynnott said:
Sorry, what? Secret police? We don't have those
in this country, haven't since the 30s. You live in a country where you
can be detained indefinitely without trial, and tortured (I'm assuming
you're American).
Actually, you do have a point. When I wrote that email things were not
as bad as they are now. I have heard so many stories of people being
"detained", personal mail being searched, and of course the whole
torture fiasco.
It's amazing how the extreme right has come to power. It's very scary.
Not that I have any sympathy for the extreme left...I prefer something lukewarm in the middle.
I'll be quiet now.
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You might take comfort in the fact that the People's Republic of Europe is becoming a police society at lightning speed. Here in the province of The Netherlands we're pretty close to having biometrics on our ID cards [:#] (EU mandate), we nearly made it mandatory for ISPs to log all e-mail subjects and other traffic data for 2 or 3 years [:#] and the nicest one is this: you now have the right to freely express yourself, "as long as you don't insult other people." Because somebody might brutally kill you for your insulting opinion, you see. [:#]
As the Students for an Orwellian Society say: because 2005 is 21 years too late!*
* Not that I have anything against Big Brother [Y].
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I have an interesting situation...
I was born in France...I'm half French, half German, (my biological mother was French and my father was German, ironically) and I was adopted at birth by my American parents.
I've lived here in California my entire life, and I know no other family than here. I don't know how to speak French, or German, but in school I learned AP Spanish.
I consider myself an "American" in general, but I'm honestly disgusted by the mega-super-size-ultra-giant proportions at fast food restaraunts! People complain about obesity in America and they wonder why.
And theres a book called Why French Women Don't Get Fat...I havent read it, or seen this, but i heard that in France, everything is a little bit smaller portions than here in the states.
Even the King Sized Hershey bars have a few ounces less than the ones here, apparently.
And living here in California, I've seen this for myself...nobody gets off their butt and walks anywhere. People GET IN THEIR CAR to get to the mailbox a few houses down, and they GET IN THEIR CAR to go to a neighbor's house for a block party.
sigh [^o)]
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@RawritsMelissa said:
And theres a book called Why French Women Don't Get Fat...I havent read it, or seen this, but i heard that in France, everything is a little bit smaller portions than here in the states.
Even the King Sized Hershey bars have a few ounces less than the ones here, apparently.That's perfectly true. The biggest portions aslo ain't available (or only became available recently).
Example: I went to a trip to the western half of the US a few years ago (Yellowstone => Grand, Bryce, Zion Canyon => Phoenix => LA, basically). One thing they had at the Mac Donalds was the 20pcs nuggetts. The biggest portion I had seen in france was 9 pieces... (haven't gone to McDonalds in a long time so I'm not sure wether the 20pcs finally made it's way to us or not...)
There is also the already cited facts that the french culture considers a meal as an event to be enjoyed, not as some duty that has to be done.
Quite a lot of french people, even with the americanization of the culture, still don't consider that they had a "good" meal unless it lasted at least an hour to an hour and a half (bottom line). The length of the meals with the low quantities of food ingested (compared to american meals) actually means that the digestive system has more than enough time to kick in and cool down, is never overworked and has the time to efficiently and patiently process everything, it doesn't need to "waste" anything just cause it has too much on his hands and just doesn't have the time to do it's tasks.
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You certainly had not come to Portugal !
Portugal has so much variety that from North to South it has more 10.000 diferent meals, it's impossible to say bad things about Portuguese food.
I challenge you to come to Portugal :)
... and you will have a different picture of Europe!
:)
@Anonymous said:
<FONT size=1>
I find interesting the differences between the American and European cultures, especially in regards to food and eating. I was in Europe not too long ago and was shocked at how people viewed the dining experience over there. Their portions were so small. Their drinks were small. Everything was smaller. And they didn't quite grasp the idea of an all-you-can-eat buffett. I received a lot of odd stares at a pizza shop because I was going back for my 4th, 5th, and 6th slices when most people were still nibbling on their first. Also, in some areas it is common to have a glass of wine with a meal. In the U.S. it's a glass of wine and then down the whole bottle. Another time I went to a European burger king and got their "large" coke, which equates to a super-small in the U.S. I wanted to ask for a refill but I felt so out of place doing so...so I never found out if Europe even allows them. The Europeans must view the American dining experience as "binge eating". They must think that every meal we have it has to be a feast. (Which in most cases is true.) Whilst in Europe I wanted to supersize everything. I wondered why everyone over there was so stingy with the food.
Hey Katja, what do you think about this?
</FONT>
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I'm not "americano" but must say that my best years were the ones I spend in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State><st1:place>California</st1:place></st1:State> in the 80’s. It's all about leaving the moment, about experiencing life to its fullest. You know, principles are justified by their position in experience and not by anything external. So, maybe <st1:country-region><st1:place>America</st1:place></st1:country-region> to you is all bad or not, for me is a great place, for some one in the mountains of <st1:country-region><st1:place>Pakistan</st1:place></st1:country-region> means nothing at all. But I miss it, I obtained in the <st1:country-region><st1:place>US</st1:place></st1:country-region> what I couldn’t in <st1:place>Europe</st1:place>, <st1:place>Europe</st1:place> might be now a great place is it? But it wasn’t like that always, or have you guys forgotten the 30’s and 40’s of this past century? But I belong here and so here I am. [:D]<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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@Katja said:
I also just drink tap water. They've even done a quality test here in the Netherlands, comparing several brands of bottled water and tapwater. They wanted to know which was cleanest. I believe tap water here made it to the top-5 of best types of water. [;)]
They actually did a test in the UK a few years ago and found that over half of all bottled water wouldn't pass the quality standards for tapwater, there were way too many contaminants (especially heavy metals).
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bsorter - Urquell (sp) is getting really big in the U.S. We love that clean taste!
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Well my ex from Berlin told me that American men are better looking and European women are better looking, but I'll take her word for it
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Now, are European women better looking than American men?
Your ex probably felt secure in her knowledge that you're unlikely to leave her for a European woman, yet not so secure as to want to mention that you're not much of a looker compared to some of the men she met over here [H]I've seen some good looking men and women on both continents, and some you'd rather forget about too.
I've not kept track of the percentages of each though [:P]
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@aogilmor said:
I never had trouble getting enough to eat in
Europe, but the drink sizes were very stingy, especially juice, soda or
water. I also noticed that everybody drank bottled water -- never
tap water -- a practice that has unfortunately made it to these shores
in recent years. I was told that the reason is they didn't have
safe drinking water from a tap until fairly recently, and so were
just in the habit of buying bottled water.
Here in Vienna, the tap water quality is excellent - it's brought from the alps through aqueducts - but you are never quite sure about "the last mile"; many old houses have lead pipes for the water.
@Anonymous said:
<font size="1">
<font size="3">And they didn't quite grasp the idea of an all-you-can-eat buffett.</font>
</font>
Many Chinese and sushi restaurants offer them in Vienna.
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I don't want to get too political here, but does anyone here think Condolezza Rice would make a good president? Does anyone think she would be good for the interests of the European Union? She speaks Russian fluently...
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@CPound said:
I don't want to get too political here, but does
anyone here think Condolezza Rice would make a good president? Does
anyone think she would be good for the interests of the European Union?
She speaks Russian fluently...
If think she is very clever. This would probably make her a much better
president than the current one. That said, I wonder where the US
militarism is heading too. Why do the US spend so much money on their
armed forces when there is no rivalling superpower left? I cannot
believe this is necessary to fight terrorism. Terrorists don't have
heavy weapons, fighter planes or ICBMs.
If Condolezzar Rice was president, would she continue to reduce social spendings and spend it on weapons?
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@ammoQ said:
@CPound said:
I don't want to get too political here, but does anyone here think Condolezza Rice would make a good president? Does anyone think she would be good for the interests of the European Union? She speaks Russian fluently...
If think she is very clever. This would probably make her a much better president than the current one. That said, I wonder where the US militarism is heading too. Why do the US spend so much money on their armed forces when there is no rivalling superpower left? I cannot believe this is necessary to fight terrorism. Terrorists don't have heavy weapons, fighter planes or ICBMs.
If Condolezzar Rice was president, would she continue to reduce social spendings and spend it on weapons?One thing to consider - Presidents come from Governorships by a large margin. It is theorized that being a Governor, wielding executive power, gives them more "experience" to be President. (Of course, this is only a good theory if the public actual shares that perception when voting.) Had he not gone insane, Howard Dean may have fared better against Bush than Kerry.
As far as I know, Ms. Rice has always been appointed, never elected to so much as magistrate. (I could be wrong here.)
ammoQ raises a good point about weaponry. There is an old saying that "the military is always fighting the last war," meaning as a large institution, they have a hard time adjusting to new threats. By implication, of course, this might mean our military exertions should concentrate more on spying and covert operations. And look how popular those activities are among the intelligentsia. [:D]
I think he's a good president doing the best he can. The term "crap magnet" comes to mind, though...
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@R.Flowers said:
One thing to consider - Presidents come from Governorships by a
large margin. It is theorized that being a Governor, wielding executive
power, gives them more "experience" to be President.
Good point. So should we prepare for President Schwarzenegger?
BTW: Do Americans generally know that Schwarzenegger is still Austrian citizen? What do you think about his dual citizenship?
ammoQ raises a good point about weaponry. There is an old saying that "the military is always fighting the last war," meaning as a large institution, they have a hard time adjusting to new threats. By implication, of course, this might mean our military exertions should concentrate more on spying and covert operations. And look how popular those activities are among the intelligentsia. [:D]I think it's inevitable that there will be more wars for resources, especially oil. The US prepare for those wars. But they are not alone. The same is happening in Europe. Europe is united, even the USSR is no longer a threat - but nonetheless the European countries intensify investments in weapons.
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@ammoQ said:
So should we prepare for President Schwarzenegger?
BTW: Do Americans generally know that Schwarzenegger is still Austrian citizen? What do you think about his dual citizenship?I think the politically astute do. Most others probably don't know who the governor of California is. (Of course, being politically astute, we know that Schwarzenegger can't be president unless we amend the Constitution. I'll just put it here for everyone's benefit, though.)
@ammoQ said:
I think it's inevitable that there will be more wars for resources, especially oil. The US prepare for those wars. But they are not alone. The same is happening in Europe. Europe is united, even the USSR is no longer a threat - but nonetheless the European countries intensify investments in weapons.
I hope you're wrong about this, but I fear the worst. One thing to keep in mind is that huge quantities of oil are to be found in the Ukraine, Canada, and Venezuela. So why are not invading those countries to "get their oil?" Because those countries sell oil without killing Americans (even Venezuela!). Arab governments do want to do business with anyone who wants to buy their oil. However, those countries have extemist elements that don't want anything to do with "the infidel." So you have a very bad situation of mid-east oil. That's where the conflict arises - not from America wanting to rape countries and steal their resources. We've always been good about buying what we need.
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BTW, should we start a new thread? If we're going to be talking at length, it seems ridiculous to have to jump to the end of the 3-page thread.
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@R.Flowers said:
I hope you're wrong about this, but I fear
the worst. One thing to keep in mind is that huge quantities of oil are
to be found in the Ukraine, Canada, and Venezuela. So why are not
invading those countries to "get their oil?" Because those countries
sell oil without killing Americans (even Venezuela!). Arab governments do want to do business with anyone who wants to buy their oil. However, those countries have extemist elements that don't want anything
to do with "the infidel." So you have a very bad situation of mid-east
oil. That's where the conflict arises - not from America wanting to
rape countries and steal their resources. We've always been good about
buying what we need.
Yes, you are good about buying what you need - as long as you can pay in USD.
Both the US and Europe depend on oil being traded for USD. If the
oil-producing countries started to sell their oil for EUR, the USD/EUR
exchange rate would collapse; that would badly hurt the economic
systems in the US (sharply rising prices for resources) and the EU as
well (exports collapse).
Coincidentally, the same countries that officially hate(d) the infidels, considered listing their oil in EUR.
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@ammoQ said:
Yes, you are good about buying what you need - as long as you can pay in USD.
Both the US and Europe depend on oil being traded for USD. If the oil-producing countries started to sell their oil for EUR, the USD/EUR exchange rate would collapse; that would badly hurt the economic systems in the US (sharply rising prices for resources) and the EU as well (exports collapse).
Coincidentally, the same countries that officially hate(d) the infidels, considered listing their oil in EUR.I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Wouldn't the value of oil (or any commodity) stay the same (within market considerations of course) irrespective of what currency it was traded in? I've always been terrible understanding the disparities in exchange rates.
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@R.Flowers said:
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Wouldn't the value of oil
(or any commodity) stay the same (within market considerations of
course) irrespective of what currency it was traded in? I've always
been terrible understanding the disparities in exchange rates.
Currently, the exchange rate EUR/USD=1.2
If Iran stars trading oil in EUR, and other oil producing countries do
the same, this might change to EUR/USD=2.5 or so. (Consider the huge US
budget deficit, the trade balance...)
Currently, a barrel of oil costs about 60 USD (=50 EUR). Then, it
would cost 125 USD (=50 EUR). Currently a European product, e.g. a car,
costs (say) 24K USD (=20K EUR) in the US. Then, it would cost 50K USD
(=20K EUR), but obviously no-one pays that much for a medium-class car.
But if the European manufacturer keeps the price of 24K USD, that will
be less than 10K EUR. By far not enough to cover the production costs
in Europe.
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I get the impression that Condolezza Rice is extremely intelligent, and she is just biding her time under the buffoon until the right moment when she will make her presence known. Someone mentioned how the US is becoming militarized. Do you think Rice will be some sort of benevolent fascist dictator? I say benevolent because I don't think she would agree with all of this spying "big brother" stuff. I can sort of see the dictator part though...she seems quite militant herself. She might be the type to strengthen the US because she knows the inner workings of the EU and would use that to the country's advantage.
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@Katja said:
Basically, the important thing to learn is how to deal with those homosexual feelings when you discover you have them. Learning that it's not a bad thing. Learning that you are not damned in any way for making love with anyone else of the same sex.
Learning that it's not a bad thing? That's an opinion, not a fact.
sincerely,
Richard Nixon
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@Jacob K said:
(This next part is pretty much intended for Americans, but foreigners to the States can listen in)
What if we had not helped stop Hitler or Kaiser Wilhelm? Or how about
King George? Why would you deny another country the same freedom that
we have experienced over the past 238 years? Saddam Hussein reigned in
the same fashion that Hitler did. He needed to be brought down. The
rest of the world just does not have the testical fortitude that is
needed to actually make a change upon the face of the earth.
We have liberated two countries of tyranny and oppression of what we
once were. Elections have taken place in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
So, I pose this question Katja and others: What would you do if you
were suddenly forced to wear a veil and stay at home your entire life
and be a slave? What if you were scared of your leader because he might
have your entire family slaughtered in an instant? You would call upon
the United States... again.
YEAH RIGHT! Cause u'r such heroes! I can name a few countries wich have
a dictatorship and u don't fucking care! Take north Korea for
instance!Why don't u go there and save them? Oh... i forgot .. They
Don't have OIL! ups.. my bad..
What u can't understand is that u havn't entered a single war without
selfish interest, so don't give me that crapish we're_heroes_atitude.
You did it in WWII because if you didn't you would be massacrated if
2/3 of the world were against u. And you went to Iraq because you have
to justify the manufacturing of those multi-million-dollar missiles,
boats tanks and crap that u make. Oh since you were going there why not
establish some OMFG democracy so that you can move all your oil
companies there? Quite profitable hã?
Don't take me as an extremist, I don't hate nor jealous the US. But i
can't agree with your foreign policy, and quite franqly I think your
comments are just stupid but i can understand since u are constantly
bombarded w/ first class propaganda. "Terrorists don't like america!"
... maybe because you ARE terrorists to the eyes of the majority of the
entire world!
Dude seriously, quit that attitude, don't vote on G.W. jackass Bush and
start living and ACTING like a civilized country, cause civilized means
tolerance and definitely not 14th century cruzades...
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hi all, i've red the first 2 pages of the topic (1,5 :P ) and i'm amused on how much huge our cultural differences are.
I'm also astonished by the absolutely-no-knowledge we have upon the counterparts.
We are in the siotuation where Americans think that EU are tiny people with tiny stomachs and probably holds big baguettes with theyr arm. Europeans on theyr own think that american are oversized people always thinking about oil, how to make money faster and where to fire the next bullet or missile in the name of freedom)
I'm Italian (spaghetti, pizza, mandolino and ferrari :@ ) and in these last few days i' ve really thought about this situation.
Berlusconi(our "Principal" that IMHO is a complete idiot) has came in the US to talk to the congress and to recive that "interpid" prize(sounds like a mikey mouse comic gift).
I've listened to the words that berlusconi spoke at the congress, and i can hardly believe that an American can really believe in that amount of banality.
i'm really intrested in your opinions American guys. Has anyone heard about Berlusconi?
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Another question....
Really u all belive in George Without-a-second-expression Bush?
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@theproject said:
What u can't understand is that u havn't entered a single war without selfish interest, so don't give me that crapish we're_heroes_atitude. You did it in WWII because if you didn't you would be massacrated if 2/3 of the world were against u.Point taken. Quite a selfish attitude, not wanting to be run over by facism. Is there no end to our self-interest?
@theproject said:
And you went to Iraq because you have to justify the manufacturing of those multi-million-dollar missiles, boats tanks and crap that u make. Oh since you were going there why not establish some OMFG democracy so that you can move all your oil companies there? Quite profitable hã?
Don't take me as an extremist, I don't hate nor jealous the US. But i can't agree with your foreign policy, and quite franqly I think your comments are just stupid but i can understand since u are constantly bombarded w/ first class propaganda. "Terrorists don't like america!" ... maybe because you ARE terrorists to the eyes of the majority of the entire world!You talk of propaganda, then turn around and call Americans terrorists. (Well, we do have a few, but we don't hold benefits and telethons for them.) Maybe your opinion is the product of propaganda?
@theproject said:
Dude seriously, quit that attitude, don't vote on G.W. jackass Bush and start living and ACTING like a civilized country, cause civilized means tolerance and definitely not 14th century cruzades...We can't vote for Bush again, as the 22nd amendement to our Constitution forbids a person more than 2 terms as President. (If you would bother to study a culture outside your own, you might learn that.) We could repeal that amendment, although it's a long process, and I'm not at all for it. But when I read shit like this, it makes me want to do it out of spite.
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I'm putting on my flame-retardant pants.
<a href="http://www.miltpriggee.com/cartoons.php/1/5297">How I feel about the USA</a>
I'd say that sums it up better than I could, but I'll give it a chance anyway. I live in the US, and I'm proud of my country. We have pushed forth a number of great, useful ideas in the last 100 years [fewer recently]. We have a society that has cleaned up a large number of infractions against large segments of our populace [which shouldn't have existed in the first place]. We often try to help grant 'our' basic freedoms in the rest of the world [even when we shouldn't be, and there are plenty of examples of that, too]. And, yes, there is a level of economic freedom here, where I could grow up to be a CEO, or at least a doctor or a lawyer [though, arguably, there are problems within our system]. There are a number of reasons to be proud of my country, and I am, within limits.
But I'm also scared. When I see who is running my country, I worry. I don't mean Bush, and cadre: they're a symptom of larger, overall problems. I worry each time I see John Smith, who has problems with basic math but runs a large company, daily making decisions that affect thousands of other employees. I worry when I see little Johnny peer-progressing through school, barely able to read, because teachers are worried about his self-esteem. I worry when I meet college students who do not know who the governor of their state is, some of whom aren't even sure which is their state! When I meet the soccer mom that is voting "Bush" because he "killed all them terrorists that caused 9/11", I worry. When I see Kansas attempting to push through what is, in essence, little more than a government sponsered psudoreligion, I worry.
I think it was Robert Heinlein who said that "People generally get the form of government that they deserve." That, along with, "[those] who make up the government are reflections of the general public, only more so." pretty much describe how I see the current people in government. Lax education combined with misinformation or lack of information altogether, combined with widespread public apathy. I'm sure I've read about other countries with similar symptoms, somewhere.....
The problem isn't that I think these problems exist. These problems are going to exist, to a greater or lesser extent, in any modern country. It's that I believe the problems are getting worse here. Every morning, I wake up to find that the law has been redefined in some slight way to benefit a company at the expense of an employee or the taxpayers. Or that funding for some project is being cut... but the directors over it are getting a minor 'bonus'. Or that someone is suing a tire company because the tires don't say, "Do not eat" or "Do not insert into ears." Or that someone has patented the tire-swing. Or someone suing diet coke after eating 3 quarter-pounders with cheese with a diet coke each day doesn't help them lose weight. Makes me wish I had decided to be a lawyer instead of a computer programmer.
"98% of the population is asleep. The other 2% are staring around in complete amazement, abject terror, or both." I'm not sure it's asleep anymore. On my less cynical days, I tend to believe they're just apathetic to the point of senile docility. The rest of the time, I simply think, "Take your average person. Now realize that HALF of the population is less intelligent..."
When someone starts saying, in essence, that freedom of speech doesn't cover saying that you disagree with your government or a part of it, I really worry. That's not an insult, it's the reason I responded to this thread at all. I suggest a few books, probably starting a Thomas Hobbe's Leviathan, on through the collection of Benjamin Franklin. Some CS Lewis and Jefferson is nice, too. That is, simply, the one thing that it should always cover, from homeless guy on the corner to the President himself. I'd start screaming Ben Franklin's liberty quotes, had I not gotten tired of doing that 5 years ago.
European WTFers: I suggest you do watch our country. If we stop the million little things that are hurting our country, it'll be an excellent demonstration of what to do if our positions are ever reversed. If it continues going downhill, it'll be an excellent demonstration of what not to do. And save a programming job [something dealing with C++ and perl] for me: I'll be on the first plane over if I ever believe that we're not longer capable of being salvaged.
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Menzel,
I'm not sure what to think about your description of the effects of the
Muslim population on language and attitudes in Amsterdam. It sounds
interesting in an academic sense, but also a bit disturbing in the
sense that Western culture seems to be getting damaged by this rather
negative outside influence. I've heard about a lot of problems the
immigrant populations have created in the Netherlands, as well as
Belgium, France, Sweden, and the UK. Who know where it all will lead?
Katja,
I'm sorry to say so, but the general tone of your comments juxtaposed
against the extreme courtesy of your signature makes me laugh. But on a
positive note, your bluntness is very consistent with American culture
and behavior, so maybe the trans-Atlantic differences are not so great
after all.
I don't know where some of my fellow Americans get their funny notions
about Europe...that the French don't drink water, for example. And the
all-you-can eat buffet concept...where do you think smorgasbord came
from, Japan? Are you guys serious, or are you just making bizarre
statements to see what the Europeans will say in reply?
Regarding freedom...IMO freedom may be perceived differently in Europe
and America. Here we value the right to say whatever we please, and
we'll let neo-Nazis speak openly in order to preserve the same
privilege for ourselves. It doesn't imply agreement with their views.
In a sense, isn't it better to know where people stand than to force
them underground? At least you know who is who.
OTOH, we're not as free as we like to imagine. There are many things we
cannot say out loud because they are "politically incorrect." We can be
fired from our jobs or harassed on the street if we say "certain
things." In western Europe there are also "certain things" that cannot
be said. The difference is simply in the particular things that are
forbidden. Is one region more or less free than the other? I don't
think so.
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I think it would be funny to visit one of these European police states (yes I know, they don't exist - wink wink) and run up to a member of their secret police and yell "Hiya Mr. Secret Police man! I'm an American! Whaddya think about that?"
It would be funny to see their reaction. Being a secret policeman and all.
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@CPound said:
I think it would be funny to visit one of these European police states (yes I know, they don't exist - wink wink) and run up to a member of their secret police and yell "Hiya Mr. Secret Police man! I'm an American! Whaddya think about that?"
It would be funny to see their reaction. Being a secret policeman and all.
What states do you think of when you say "European police state"? GB? Belarus?
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@ammoQ said:
What states do you think of when you say "European police state"? GB? Belarus?
Any Nordic country qualifies.
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@CPound said:
@ammoQ said:
What states do you think of when you say "European police state"? GB? Belarus?
Any Nordic country qualifies.
Why? I haven't heard anything specific about those countries in terms of "police state".
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@ammoQ said:
Why? I haven't heard anything specific about those countries in terms of "police state".
I was just kidding about the Nordic countries.
When I talk about a police state I am referring to Belarus (obviously).
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@CPound said:
@ammoQ said:
Why? I haven't heard anything specific about those countries in terms of "police state".
I was just kidding about the Nordic countries.
When I talk about a police state I am referring to Belarus (obviously).
It's not that obvious. Anyway, people get arrested in Belarus for lesser crimes than being Americans, so better be carefull.
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What is with this tendency for European countries to become police states?
What makes Europe so "police state-ish"?
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@CPound said:
What is with this tendency for European countries to become police states?
What makes Europe so "police state-ish"?
The same like in the USA: The Fear Of Terror(tm)
