I am on the ground I am on the ground I am on the ground I am on the ground HEY LISTEN
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@blakeyrat said:
Yes, obviously any world simulation is going to start being CPU bound if you do ridiculous things in the world. Your argument is llike a 5-year-old saying, "you can run a mile? Well can you run a HILLION MILLION JILLION MILES!?"
So your point is that TRWTF was when you compared two things that shouldn't be compared even though they bear some passing similarity because of their completely incongruous scales?
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@blakeyrat said:
You could also write a mod for Skyrim that's CPU-straining (although it would be tough, frankly the game engine and/or Creation Kit would probably crash before you reached that point.) Who cares?
But that's the thing, in Minecraft there is nothing ridiculous about it. You're talking about mods while I'm talking about basic game mechanics. By its very nature Minecraft needs to be able to do "ridiculous" stuff like this which in a technical sense sets it apart from most games. And so regardless of whether games are CPU bound or not you have to acknowledge the fact that in this case maxing the CPU at least every now and then is par for the course regardless of how well optimized the code is.Yes, obviously any world simulation is going to start being CPU bound if you do ridiculous things in the world. Your argument is llike a 5-year-old saying, "you can run a mile? Well can you run a HILLION MILLION JILLION MILES!?"
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@DOA said:
But that's the thing, in Minecraft there is nothing ridiculous about it.
Bullshit. You contrived an example. I'm pointing out it was a contrived example. That is, indeed, ridiculous.
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How is it that werewolves jump higher if the jump height isn't tied to the character in Skyrim? This is not an argumentative query.
How is it that New Vegas runs like total shit compared to Skyrim if they share so much code, etc.? I can actually run Skyrim on a $450 HP Pavillion G6 on medium settings at 800x600 just fine. New Vegas runs like shit on a hexcore Phenom II "Black Edition" with an $800 nVidia video card. One of those big fuckers I had to move my hard drives so it would fit in the case.
The Radiant mission system is total shit, but a nice try.
Minecraft is a fun game, but it's clearly a completely unoptimized cluster of shit in the code. Runs about like New Vegas (relatively). New Vegas should not run as slow as it does. Minecraft should not run as slow as it does. It runs about as good as Skyrim on the previously mentioned laptop. And it really should be running quite a bit faster considering the graphical detail alone. Quite a bit of stuff is not simulated unless the chunk is loaded. Chunk generation is done one time. I expect it to be memory hungry, but it shouldn't use so much CPU unless running the server component.
Then you have the fucking changelog. Implement one feature and it breaks something else. Some of these things, I can't imagine how the code must be structured to even cause such a bug. You have shit like chests getting fucked up because of a new weather effect. I'm not checking the changelog to give real examples. You know they're there.
The wireshark screenshot explains why my 3 Mbps upload bandwidth could not handle a server with 6 people. Holy shit. And all the TCP overhead. Fucking Quake 3 used a UDP stream and implemented its own fragmentation handling and out-of-order packet handling (whatever the technical term for that is). It would have been perfect for Minecraft. The code has been available for this for years and the algorithm explained in detail all over the place. I implemented it myself once (without the compression). The network code in Minecraft is how you don't do multiplayer.
Terarria (sp?) is damn fun. I think it was written in C# using the XNA framework. But I could be totally wrong about that. It seems like it required an XNA runtime to run, but I could be wrong about that too. Guess it doesn't have to be C#. Never had an issue with the way that game runs.
Nice thread.
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@blakeyrat said:
@DOA said:
But that's the thing, in Minecraft there is nothing ridiculous about it.
Bullshit. You contrived an example. I'm pointing out it was a contrived example. That is, indeed, ridiculous.
It's obvious at this point that you know jackshitall about the Minecraft community. They do "ridiculous" things in it on a regular basis. It's part of the appeal of Minecraft that it allows doing ridiculous things (like, say, using its basic signal-passing functionality to build a functional 8-bit adder). Its gameworld is essentially a gigantic cellular simulation, so it requires decent CPU grunt to keep things ticking along.
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@Zylon said:
It's obvious at this point that you know jackshitall about the Minecraft community. They do "ridiculous" things in it on a regular basis. It's part of the appeal of Minecraft that it allows doing ridiculous things (like, say, using its basic signal-passing functionality to build a functional 8-bit adder). Its gameworld is essentially a gigantic cellular simulation, so it requires decent CPU grunt to keep things ticking along.
I know they do, I just don't care because those people aren't playing a video game. They're doing something else entirely. So I don't see that as being relevant.
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@blakeyrat said:
@Zylon said:
It's obvious at this point that you know jackshitall about the Minecraft community. They do "ridiculous" things in it on a regular basis. It's part of the appeal of Minecraft that it allows doing ridiculous things (like, say, using its basic signal-passing functionality to build a functional 8-bit adder). Its gameworld is essentially a gigantic cellular simulation, so it requires decent CPU grunt to keep things ticking along.
I know they do, I just don't care because those people aren't playing a video game. They're doing something else entirely. So I don't see that as being relevant.Can you explain why you think they're not playing a video game while they are playing the video game called Minecraft?
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@DOA said:
I'm not sure why we're discussing Skyrim mods.
Have you tried the Minecraft mod for Skyrim?
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@Zylon said:
It's part of the appeal of Minecraft that it allows doing ridiculous things (like, say, using its basic signal-passing functionality to build a functional 8-bit adder).
Does your mother know that you are "passing signals"? Tsk tsk.
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@boomzilla said:
Can you explain why you think they're not playing a video game while they are playing the video game called Minecraft?
Blakey's goalposts come with rollerskates pre-installed.
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@Zylon said:
@boomzilla said:
Can you explain why you think they're not playing a video game while they are playing the video game called Minecraft?
Blakey's goalposts come with rollerskates pre-installed.Logging into a video game and designing a 8-bit CPU using its tools is not playing a video game. It's making a pointless thing with a shitty tool for no reason. No reasonable person would call that "playing a video game", even if the shitty tool they happen to be using happens to be a video game.
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@blakeyrat said:
Logging into a video game and designing a 8-bit CPU using its tools is not playing a video game. It's making a pointless thing with a shitty tool for no reason. No reasonable person would call that "playing a video game", even if the shitty tool they happen to be using happens to be a video game.
You're so cute when you're wrong.
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@blakeyrat said:
Logging into a video game and designing a 8-bit CPU using its tools is not playing a video game. It's making a pointless thing with a shitty tool for no reason. No reasonable person would call that "playing a video game", even if the shitty tool they happen to be using happens to be a video game.
What is the difference between [a construction] in Minecraft and [a construction] in Terraria (such as your very own submarine?)
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@dhromed said:
What is the difference between [a construction] in Minecraft and [a construction] in Terraria (such as your very own submarine?)
Building player housing is a game mechanic and required for advancement in the game.
Building a scientific calculator in Minecraft is not part of the game and serves no purpose.
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@blakeyrat said:
@dhromed said:
What is the difference between [a construction] in Minecraft and [a construction] in Terraria (such as your very own submarine?)
Building player housing is a game mechanic and required for advancement in the game.
Building a scientific calculator in Minecraft is not part of the game and serves no purpose.
OK, so open ended games are not really games? And doing open ended type of stuff is not fun?
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@blakeyrat said:
@boomzilla said:
OK, so open ended games are not really games?
That's your assertion, not mine.
Sort of. It's my assertion about what you assert is or isn't included in "playing a video game." I don't see a contradictory assertion to mine based on your assertions.
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For a second there I forgot it's pointless to ever engage Boomzilla in any form of discussion. Sorry all.
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@blakeyrat said:
For a second there I forgot it's pointless to ever engage Boomzilla in any form of discussion. Sorry all.
Thank you for finally conceding that you were wrong.
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@boomzilla said:
Can you explain why you think they're not playing a video game while they are playing the video game called Minecraft?
Some games only allow you to do one thing -- play the game. Other games allow you to to do al sorts of other stuff. You might technically be "in" Minecraft but you're not actually playing the game. Building a scientific calculator or 8 bit CPU in Minecraft might be really fun and/or interesting (depending on your definition of fun and interesting) but it doesn't constitute "playing a video game" by any reasonable, non-trolling, non-pedantic dickweed definition.It's like using a video game to make a music video. It's really fun and cool and interesting, but it isn't really "playing a video game".
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@El_Heffe said:
@boomzilla said:
Can you explain why you think they're not playing a video game while they are playing the video game called Minecraft?
Some games only allow you to do one thing -- play the game. Other games allow you to to do al sorts of other stuff. You might technically be "in" Minecraft but you're not actually playing the game. Building a scientific calculator or 8 bit CPU in Minecraft might be really fun and/or interesting (depending on your definition of fun and interesting) but it doesn't constitute "playing a video game" by any reasonable, non-trolling, non-pedantic dickweed definition.Eh, no. Playing around inside of a video game is "playing a video game" in the non-pedantic dickweed / non-trolling world.
@El_Heffe said:
It's like using a video game to make a music video. It's really fun and cool and interesting, but it isn't really "playing a video game".
Well, playing a video game is certainly part of that activity. The video couldn't exist if someone didn't "play the video game." Next you'll tell me that a professional baseball player isn't "playing a game" because it's his job.
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Minecraft is a sandbox game. By definition anything you build in it is playing the game.
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@Zylon said:
So if I build a giant dick, it can play with me?Minecraft is a sandbox game. By definition anything you build in it is playing the game.
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@boomzilla said:
Well, playing a video game is certainly part of that activity. The video couldn't exist if someone didn't "play the video game."
This is entering the realm of Uninteresting Philosophy
Let's boil it down:
1. Do you like Minecraft? Y/N -> play it or not
2. Do you like Terraria? Y/N -> play it or not
There, I fixed all of you. Now pay me moneys.
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@DOA said:
As an example I dare you to come up with an algorithm that allows you to detonate a couple of hundred of TNT blocks and calculate their effect on their enviroment in a world that is populated by about 10 million interactable objects at any one time (you were saying about Skyrim?) in a way that's not CPU bound.
Someone managed to make TNT explode at ~500 explosions/second.
And not crash the game by running out of memory. Why would too many explosions at once run out of memory? Turns out there's a global pool of VECTORS. All vectors come from the pool, which is expanded if it's not big enough, and it's reset each frame. Too many vectors used in one frame = crash.
There's a lot wrong with Minecraft besides Java.
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@immibis said:
Turns out there's a global pool of VECTORS.
:O what, seriously? Can you give me a link to that, because that's insane and I want to make fun of it.
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I've heard that the next version of Lotus Notes will be built in Minecraft
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@RTapeLoadingError said:
I've heard that the next version of Lotus Notes will be built in Minecraft
I've heard that the current version was already built in Minecraft. And that's not playing around.
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@boomzilla said:
@RTapeLoadingError said:
I've heard that the next version of Lotus Notes will be built in Minecraft
I've heard that the current version was already built in Minecraft. And that's not playing around.
Man, it's like it's just a game to them.
One that you don't play when you play it.
It's very meta.
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Minecraft might actually have CPU-intensive physics and AI quite like the way Dwarf Fortress has. From Nth-hand hearsay, DF manages water (and magma) with complex fluid mechanics and it's one of the more CPU-hungry parts.
This is pure speculation because I have neither of the three, but I could see Minecraft having this, and Skyrim not needing it due to not having stuff like:
- Ability to dig or otherwise change the course of a river,
- Water pumps and wheels.
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@boomzilla said:
Eh, no. Playing around inside of a video game is "playing a video game" in the non-pedantic dickweed / non-trolling world.
There's a line you cross where you are no longer playing the game, but using the game to do something else. When I'm modding Skyrim, I'm not playing the game, I'm running it as a development tool. (Although of course I play-test afterwards.) When this guy logs into Minecraft and builds a scientific calculator, he's not playing Minecraft. I would also argue that people doing tool-assisted speed-runs, for example, are not playing the game. (Normal speed-runs are more iffy.)
I don't have a word for what they are doing. And I freely admit that the line is fuzzy. But its definitely there. No naive person would walk up to scientific calculator guy, look over his shoulder, and say, "oh that looks like a fun game." They'd probably say, "oh your circuit design simulator is shit."
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@Medinoc said:
This is pure speculation because I have neither of the three, but I could see Minecraft having this, and Skyrim not needing it due to not having stuff like:
- Ability to dig or otherwise change the course of a river,
- Water pumps and wheels.
Skyrim does a shitload of other stuff that Minecraft and Dwarf Fortress don't even attempt to do. It is true that Skyrim won't "settle" water, but it can pump it (see the last quest of the Thieve's Guild quest line, for example). It can also do things like create a sphere of water hovering in the air which you can jump into and swim through. (Not really that impressive; Serious Engine could do that in like 2002. But still.) It also models physics on pretty much everything except water. It even has some code that ensures a creature's feet are on the ground when they're walking. Even up stairs. (Although it doesn't work with sabrecats for some reason.)
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@blakeyrat said:
When I'm modding Skyrim, I'm not playing the game, I'm running it as a development tool.
I would agree with this. You're coding / developing something to be used while playing the game.
@blakeyrat said:
No naive person would walk up to scientific calculator guy, look over his shoulder, and say, "oh that looks like a fun game." They'd probably say, "oh your circuit design simulator is shit."
"That looks like a fun game" is obviously a bad criterion here. Is a sudoku game not a game? Crossword? Any other puzzle sort of game? Lots of people think those are not fun. There's no accounting for taste, but building interesting things with the tools in Minecraft sound like a lot more fun than exploring Skyrim to me.
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@boomzilla said:
"That looks like a fun game" is obviously a bad criterion here. Is a sudoku game not a game? Crossword? Any other puzzle sort of game?
That's why those are called "puzzles" and not "games". (To contrast, Bejeweled is a "puzzle game" because it is both a puzzle and a game. Your examples are merely puzzles.) Nobody has ever referred to Sudoku as a "game", as far as I am aware.
@boomzilla said:
There's no accounting for taste, but building interesting things with the tools in Minecraft sound like a lot more fun than exploring Skyrim to me.
That's fine. You can do whatever the hell you want. I would (and have) even argue that building interesting things (like my submarine, which is far too fancy to meet the minimum requirements of player housing in Terraria) is playing the game. Even the people who turned Portal 2 into a roller coaster simulator using its mod tools, I'd say opening up Portal 2 and riding a roller coaster is playing the game, even though it's not even close to what Valve intended.
But a scientific calculator is not an "interesting" thing. It's not art. It's not beautiful. It's not creative. It's not original. It's just a really slow, bloated, hard-to-use scientific calculator. Do you honestly think, "making a scientific calculator with a really shitty tool" is gameplay? Even if you consider that fun (and if so, please point out where you lie on the autism spectrum, because shit man) you can't say it constitutes gameplay.
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@blakeyrat said:
But a scientific calculator is not an "interesting" thing. It's not art. It's not beautiful. It's not creative. It's not original. It's just a really slow, bloated, hard-to-use scientific calculator. Do you honestly think, "making a scientific calculator with a really shitty tool" is gameplay? Even if you consider that fun (and if so, please point out where you lie on the autism spectrum, because shit man) you can't say it constitutes gameplay.
See, "interesting" is not the same thing as "interesting to blakeyrat." And being interested in working on things like this is not synonymous with autism, no matter how far beyond your comprehension it is. Why isn't it creative? I'm not terribly interested in your idea of what constitutes beauty, either. So far your definition of "gameplay" comes down to "amuses blakeyrat."
Once again...the blakeyrat word of the day is, "parochial."
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@blakeyrat said:
But a scientific calculator is not an "interesting" thing.
To you.
@blakeyrat said:
It's not art.
Bad question.
@blakeyrat said:
It's not beautiful.
Yes it is.
@blakeyrat said:
It's not creative.
It is wildly creative.
@blakeyrat said:
It's not original.
Who cares? Just build it and have fun.
@blakeyrat said:
Even if you consider that fun (and if so, please point out where you lie on the autism spectrum, because shit man)
What is this nonsense.
@blakeyrat said:
you can't say it constitutes gameplay.
Sometimes I think playing From Dust is never actually playing a game but rather finding out how its surface simulator works.
I picked From Dust because it's a strangely transparent case of a solution looking for a problem: take an excellent simulator, add a thin veil of goals and backstory, call it a game and sell it.
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@boomzilla said:
"That looks like a fun game" is obviously a bad criterion here. Is a sudoku game not a game?
What about thrones?
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@blakeyrat said:
Building player housing is a game mechanic and required for advancement in the game.
Building a scientific calculator in Minecraft is not part of the game and serves no purpose.
What? No, the only “advancement” in the game is the construction of progressively more advanced tools. Beyond that? No point. Nothing. Progression in the game can be boiled down to requiring three actions: mining, crafting better tools with the new minerals you mined, and occasional woodcutting. To that end, building player housing is as useless as scientific calculators.
What I think I'm trying to get at is: just as you may not enjoy things others derive enjoyment from (the act of constructing ridiculously complex Redstone mechanics), others may not enjoy the results of that from which you derive enjoyment (pedantic dickweedism).
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I don't particularly enjoy playing first-person shooters. I only do so at the insistence of friends when we hang out. I do, however, enjoy finding bugs in first-person shooters, and I actively seek to do so. ... So... am I playing a game or not..?
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@Mr. DOS said:
@blakeyrat said:
Building player housing is a game mechanic and required for advancement in the game.
What?
He meant building living rooms in Terraria, not Minecraft.
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@Xyro said:
I do, however, enjoy finding bugs in first-person shooters, and I actively seek to do so. ... So... am I playing a game or not..?
You enjoy playtesting, which probably places you a step up from a solution of free organic compounds.
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@dhromed said:
He meant building living rooms in Terraria, not Minecraft.
Aw, and I was so satisfied with the vitrol in my summary...
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@dhromed said:
@blakeyrat said:
It's not creative.
It is wildly creative.How? Using a shitty tool to do something it wasn't designed to do it just... using a shitty tool to do something it wasn't designed to do. It's not an act of creativity.
@dhromed said:
I picked From Dust because it's a strangely transparent case of a solution looking for a problem: take an excellent simulator, add a thin veil of goals and backstory, call it a game and sell it.
I haven't played it, but if it has goals then it's obviously a game.
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@Mr. DOS said:
What? No, the only “advancement” in the game is the construction of progressively more advanced tools. Beyond that? No point. Nothing. Progression in the game can be boiled down to requiring three actions: mining, crafting better tools with the new minerals you mined, and occasional woodcutting.
Yes, that's why it's a bad game. EVE: Online is similarly a bad game. I think we've already tread this ground at least once in this thread.
@Mr. DOS said:
What I think I'm trying to get at is: just as you may not enjoy things others derive enjoyment from (the act of constructing ridiculously complex Redstone mechanics), others may not enjoy the results of that from which you derive enjoyment (pedantic dickweedism).
I didn't say anything about enjoyment. If they enjoy it, fine!
All I'm saying is logging into Minecraft and building a graphing calculator isn't playing a game.
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@Xyro said:
I don't particularly enjoy playing first-person shooters. I only do so at the insistence of friends when we hang out. I do, however, enjoy finding bugs in first-person shooters, and I actively seek to do so. ... So... am I playing a game or not..?
Kind of.
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@blakeyrat said:
I didn't say anything about enjoyment. If they enjoy it, fine!
All I'm saying is logging into Minecraft and building a graphing calculator isn't playing a game.
We know. All we're saying is that you're wrong. The enjoyment factor is the closest thing you've given as far as justification for your opinion.
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@boomzilla said:
We know. All we're saying is that you're wrong. The enjoyment factor is the closest thing you've given as far as justification for your opinion.
Here's a handy reply just for Boomzilla! Since no matter what I type, he'll completely ignore my text and reply to something he made up in his own skull, I've taken the liberty of just leaving blanks for Boomzilla's skull to fill in. Enjoy!
The real problem is that _____ and when you _____ it leads to a situation where _____ _____ _____ _____. I think a better way of _____ at the problem is to _____ _____ _____ and _____ about how it _____ in the first place. What you're _____ is that when _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ penis. So in conclusion, _____ you and _____ in a fire.
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@blakeyrat said:
@boomzilla said:
We know. All we're saying is that you're wrong. The enjoyment factor is the closest thing you've given as far as justification for your opinion.
Here's a handy reply just for Boomzilla! Since no matter what I type, he'll completely ignore my text and reply to something he made up in his own skull,I've taken the liberty of just leaving blanks for Boomzilla's skull to fill in. Enjoy!
Excellent.
The real problem is that _you talk out of your ass_ and when you _get angry_ it leads to a situation where _you_ _are_ _obviously_ _wrong_. I think a better way of _ranting_ at the problem is to _think_ _instead_of_ _emoting_ and _talk_ about how it _actually_works_in_the_world_of_reason_and_cause_and_effect_ in the first place. What you're _complaining_about_ is that when _people_ _do_ _things_ _that_ _you_ _don't_ _understand_ _you_ _can't_ _help_ _but_ _worry_ _about_ _the_ _burning_ _in_your_ penis. So in conclusion, _thank_ you and _play_ in a fire.
It's sad that you can't comprehend ever being wrong, or other people knowing something that you don't.
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@boomzilla said:
All we're saying is that you're wrong.
No I'm not actually saying that, because I kind of agree that a huge-ass redstone contraption that re-implements a common processing device isn't really fulfilling the obvious goals that the game sets, such as mining; and crafting.
It's totally cool, though.
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@blakeyrat said:
How? Using a shitty tool to do something it wasn't designed to do it just... using a shitty tool to do something it wasn't designed to do. It's not an act of creativity.
Using a shitty tool in a nonstandard way has no bearing on whether an act is creative or not.
