Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!
-
@Mason_Wheeler said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
It's literally mandatory virtue signaling.
Making it mandatory does bad things to the signal-to-noise ratio...
Virtue signalling is all noise either way, so…
-
@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Mason_Wheeler said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
It's literally mandatory virtue signaling.
Making it mandatory does bad things to the signal-to-noise ratio...
Virtue signalling is all noise either way, so…
The noise is the signal.
-
@Grunnen said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
It leads to an overload of the medical system so that triage becomes necessary
Particularly tricky is that it tends to infect medical personnel more often (because they're often in close contact with the infected) and there are some debilitating post-COVID chronic effects. The obvious effect of those two is to reduce your healthcare capacity, and if you're counting on infecting a great many people and surviving it, that could go massively wrong. (It's not a good idea to run spare capacity down to zero, as then any other little thing will kill lots of people who would otherwise survive.)
Have a citation:
The debilitation is also not going to be a good thing economically — increasing debilitation is pretty obviously going to cause problems because the affected people are simply able to do less while it lasts — but the scope of the effects there are deeply unclear; there's a lot of other economic factors too. (There will be so many economics PhDs written on this!) Still, it seems like a Bad Idea to make people sicker (on average) at a time when there's likely to be other increased economic stress.
-
@HardwareGeek said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
In my experience (watching others on Zoom; I've never tried messing with my own background), it's more likely that part of your face will disappear into the background than that the real background will show through the virtual one. Also, good lighting seems to make a huge difference in how well the software is able to differentiate foreground and background.
I’ve played with it a bit with Photo Booth (else I wouldn’t even have known such a feature exists) and have watched others do the same, and that is also my experience/observation: the software is likely to see part of you as part of the background and fill it in accordingly. I’ve even watched people use that for amusement, trying to get it to obscure specific parts of their faces.
-
@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Grunnen said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
It leads to an overload of the medical system so that triage becomes necessary
Particularly tricky is that it tends to infect medical personnel more often (because they're often in close contact with the infected) and there are some debilitating post-COVID chronic effects. The obvious effect of those two is to reduce your healthcare capacity, and if you're counting on infecting a great many people and surviving it, that could go massively wrong. (It's not a good idea to run spare capacity down to zero, as then any other little thing will kill lots of people who would otherwise survive.)
Have a citation:
The debilitation is also not going to be a good thing economically — increasing debilitation is pretty obviously going to cause problems because the affected people are simply able to do less while it lasts — but the scope of the effects there are deeply unclear; there's a lot of other economic factors too. (There will be so many economics PhDs written on this!) Still, it seems like a Bad Idea to make people sicker (on average) at a time when there's likely to be other increased economic stress.
What they describe sounds a lot like "regular" pneumonia. I definitely had fatigue and dyspnea for months after getting over it a few years ago.
-
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
What they describe sounds a lot like "regular" pneumonia. I definitely had fatigue and dyspnea for months after getting over it a few years ago.
Maybe it's related? CFS has never been fully understood anyway.
-
@dkf it went away after a few months. But I was not recovered for quite a while after the infection had been dealt with.
-
@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
There will be so many economics PhDs written on this!
And like all Economics dissertations, few if any will be worth the
treeselectrons killed to create them.
-
@Mason_Wheeler said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Heck, those of us on this side of the pond could even make a case for it being a proud American tradition. Before going into battle, George Washington deliberately exposed his entire army to smallpox, of all things, so that they would be inoculated against it!
You're conveniently forgetting that even with the crude understanding of diseases at that time, it was known (and expected) that variolation statistically produced a much weaker form of the disease (still unacceptably dangerous by modern standard, of course).
A quick search gave me a mortality rate of about 5-10% for the variolation itself (and later a 0-2% mortality rate when exposed to "true" smallpox), compared to a 30% mortality rate for smallpox, so at least 3x less dangerous.
Unless you know a way to get a significantly weakened form of the coronavirus, your example is simply not relevant.
-
@remi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
a significantly weakened form of the coronavirus
If the existing 0.5% mortality rate isn't weak enough for you already, what will ever be
-
@remi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Unless you know a way to get a significantly weakened form of the coronavirus, your example is simply not relevant.
"Give it to" young, healthy people seems fairly equivalent.
-
@Mason_Wheeler said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@remi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
a significantly weakened form of the coronavirus
If the existing 0.5% mortality rate isn't weak enough for you already, what will ever be
"weak" != "weakened"
My point is not that your idea might not work. My point is that your historical comparison is not an argument relevant to your idea.
-
@remi My point is, why does it need to be weakened? It's not smallpox!
-
@Mason_Wheeler Then use an example without smallpox, and don't try to make a variolation example say things about smallpox itself.
-
@remi ...so you completely missed the entire point of my example, then? Got it.
-
@remi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Mason_Wheeler said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@remi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
a significantly weakened form of the coronavirus
If the existing 0.5% mortality rate isn't weak enough for you already, what will ever be
"weak" != "weakened"
My point is not that your idea might not work. My point is that your historical comparison is not an argument relevant to your idea.
I think you're focusing on "weakened" vs "a relatively safer way to get enough people with immunity." The examples are a bit different in the details, true, but so what?
-
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
The examples are a bit different in the details, true, but so what?
YMBNH
(or, in emojis: / / )
-
-
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Yikes.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/13/cdc-mental-health-pandemic-394832
young adults
Generation snowflake?
minorities
Why?
-
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Yikes.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/13/cdc-mental-health-pandemic-394832
How does that compare to other years?
-
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Yikes.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/13/cdc-mental-health-pandemic-394832
How does that compare to other years?
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/fastfact.html
So, that's 10 out of 200 million total, which is about 5%, compared to the 10% overall. So roughly double in those last 30 days compared to the survey for (presumably all of) 2018.
-
@boomzilla while I agree the spike in all adults is very significant and sad, it's been known for decades that teens and young adults are very prone to thinking about suicide even with no real reason. They make a really unique demographic regarding this kind of statistics, so much that it's almost certainly wrong to apply the overall trends to them.
-
@Gąska what's your point? Are you saying that you don't think there was a spike in that demographic?
-
@boomzilla yes.
-
@Gąska why?
-
@boomzilla because 25% sounds right on par for that demographic. Although I admit I might be a little biased by growing up when the emo subculture was all the rage (hundreds of thousands of teenage girls were cutting veins on regular basis. I know that's far cry from suicide, but so is thinking about suicide.)
-
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
because 25% sounds right on par for that demographic
Not to me. Certainly not for a 30 day period.
-
@boomzilla that's why I was asking if maybe someone knows the stats for previous years. You see, I'm too myself to check. So while I'm not saying there definitely wasn't any spike, I'm quite skeptical of inferring that from the data for general population.
-
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
because 25% sounds right on par for that demographic
Not to me. Certainly not for a 30 day period.
I assumed every teenager thinks about suicide at some point. Also, thinking about suicide because either “OMG, the world is going to end” or “OMG, I’m so bored” is definitely a teenager thing to do.
-
@topspin most of these studies differentiate between the idle teenage angst and serious suicidal ideation.
-
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
because 25% sounds right on par for that demographic
Not to me. Certainly not for a 30 day period.
I assumed every teenager thinks about suicide at some point. Also, thinking about suicide because either “OMG, the world is going to end” or “OMG, I’m so bored” is definitely a teenager thing to do.
Yes, at some point. This was a particular 30 day period though.
-
@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin most of these studies differentiate between the idle teenage angst and serious suicidal ideation.
How do they do that? Genuine question.
-
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Much data, very breakdown, wow. I've never been so happy to say I was wrong.
-
Well, is it better if people have suicidal thoughts or if people actually die?
-
@Grunnen what?
-
@boomzilla Don't say you post that statistic without a reason
-
@Grunnen said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla Don't say you post that statistic without a reason
Don't say that I ever did or ever will say that I posted that statistic without a reason.
I just can't explain what you thought you were asking with your question, "Well, is it better if people have suicidal thoughts or if people actually die?"
Do you really think I want people to die? I assume not, so what was your actual question, if you don't mind?
-
@boomzilla In my country we had quite some excess mortality, but thanks to the lockdown, our health care system was not completely overburdened, which probably saved an order of magnitude more of lives.
Sweden did not have a lockdown, but, according to the numbers that we have seen today, the economy there contracted similarly to here (and the death toll has also been similar), simply because people were afraid of the virus and afraid to go outside.
So, we went through quite a terrible situation. And it's logical, unavoidable and sad that a number of people got very depressed from it.
-
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Do you really think I want people to die?
-
@HardwareGeek reading that article really hurt. It was written by an exceptional idiot. Everything that could possibly be wrong, was wrong. Not even one of these 10 reasons are correct - they're all either entirely nonsensical, or they sound somewhat logical but are completely contradicted by facts.
-
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@HardwareGeek reading that article really hurt. It was written by an exceptional idiot. Everything that could possibly be wrong, was wrong. Not even one of these 10 reasons are correct - they're all either entirely nonsensical, or they sound somewhat logical but are completely contradicted by facts.
I only read the headlines, but those seemed boring. My thought would be more along the lines of "what happens in a trillion years when the universe is dying and you're still drifting around in the void, forever?"
-
@Grunnen said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla In my country we had quite some excess mortality, but thanks to the lockdown, our health care system was not completely overburdened, which probably saved an order of magnitude more of lives.
Sweden did not have a lockdown, but, according to the numbers that we have seen today, the economy there contracted similarly to here (and the death toll has also been similar), simply because people were afraid of the virus and afraid to go outside.
So, we went through quite a terrible situation. And it's logical, unavoidable and sad that a number of people got very depressed from it.
I don't know where you're from, but our lockdowns don't seem to have worked any better than our non-lockdowns. Which isn't to say that we handled things well in every situation, but to point out that your dichotomy is definitely false. Indeed, statistics from around the world seem to say that lockdowns are relatively orthogonal to deaths.
-
@Grunnen said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
simply because people were afraid of the virus and afraid to go outside.
This isn't how life in Sweden had been. People has on the whole pretty much kept doing things as they did before, the population basically got over the fear part after a month or so, when it turned out to be mostly nothing too bad.
Our economy has mostly been hurt by that the rest of the world went full derp, and Sweden is heavily dependent on exports.
-
@Carnage "But the main factors behind the drop in GDP according to Statistics Sweden were a decrease in household consumption and exports, which suggest a change in people's behaviour."
-
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
reading that article really hurt.
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I only read the headlines,
That's more than I read.
-
@Grunnen said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Carnage "But the main factors behind the drop in GDP according to Statistics Sweden were a decrease in household consumption and exports, which suggest a change in people's behaviour."
That suggests a change in behavior by people in the rest of the world.
-
@HardwareGeek Both, of course.
But I'm really getting a bit tired of people claiming that COVID is "mostly nothing too bad" etc. after our IC units were completely full and, even with a lockdown, the excess mortality exceeded that of the worst normal flu seasons.
-
@Grunnen of course it very much depends on which age group you're talking about. For very young people it's much less dangerous than influenza.
Too many people look at some small aspect of this thing and lose all ability to think critically.
-
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Too many people
look at some small aspect of this thing and lose allhave never had any ability to think critically.FTFY
-
@boomzilla Those young people live in something called a society, where they meet other people of other ages. Colleagues, employees at stores, teachers. Parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles. Which they can infect.