Java is on crack
-
@Bulb said in Java is on crack:
files are not strongly typed
Early filesystems did strongly type files. It proved to be not a very good idea, and had thoroughly fallen out of favour by the time microcomputers started to get access to storage systems that could hold meaningful numbers of files.
-
@levicki You know that Windows had alternate file streams for ages? Sure, you do.
And you also know that they still use file extensions instead of attaching meta-data? Because that would break everywhere.
Also, pretty much every program besides Explorer will ignore the alternate file streams and when you open a file and save somewhere else, it will have no clue about them and thus discard those alternate streams.
This would be horribly fragile, and horribly non-portable.What are alternate streams used for at all? As far as I can tell, the only common usage is browsers attaching a "I downloaded this from the web, warn the sucker" stream to files.
-
@topspin If you download a webpage, it'll use an alternate stream to mark what folder is associated with the html file so wherever you move the file the folder goes with it.
-
@topspin said in Java is on crack:
This would be horribly fragile, and horribly non-portable.
It's used quite a bit more on macOS, so it isn't impossible. The problem on Windows is that software traditionally hasn't used them (probably due to the long hang-over from relying on FAT), so there's not an expectation of needing to actually support them anywhere in third-party apps.
-
@dkf And if I move a file from Mac to Windows back to Mac? Poof!
-
@dkf said in Java is on crack:
@topspin said in Java is on crack:
This would be horribly fragile, and horribly non-portable.
It's used quite a bit more on macOS, so it isn't impossible.
I seem to recall stories of copying files from MacOS onto flash drives irrecoverably corrupting them.
-
@topspin said in Java is on crack:
@dkf And if I move a file from Mac to Windows back to Mac? Poof!
Does it have special characters (Non-BMP, IIRC) characters in the filename?
-
@Gąska There probably have been flash drives corrupted, but the worst I've seen is that the drive gets spammed with a bunch of
._
files and folders.
-
@hungrier bad wording. I meant the files got corrupted due to missing alternate streams.
-
@levicki said in Java is on crack:
After all you are programmers, they are known to be bad at making choices and making time and effort estimates.
Unlike the non-programmers, who think those features they want appear out of thin air just because they want them / announced them to customers.
-
...
-
@Gąska Let me guess,
PrivateProfileString
? That's... old.
-
@topspin nevermind, I've got people mixed up.
-
@topspin said in Java is on crack:
@levicki said in Java is on crack:
After all you are programmers, they are known to be bad at making choices and making time and effort estimates.
Unlike the non-programmers, who think those features they want appear out of thin air just because they want them / announced them to customers.
Don't forget: "This would be so easy to implement!"
-
@dcon said in Java is on crack:
@topspin said in Java is on crack:
@levicki said in Java is on crack:
After all you are programmers, they are known to be bad at making choices and making time and effort estimates.
Unlike the non-programmers, who think those features they want appear out of thin air just because they want them / announced them to customers.
Don't forget: "This would be so easy to implement!"
if (going_to_crash()) { dont(); }
-
-
-
This post is deleted!
-
@levicki said in Java is on crack:
As I said in the post you downvoted because your ego is hurt
I didn't downvote shit. I will downvote this one for that!
edit: And when I posted that, it was a generic comment on users requesting features.
-
@levicki said in Java is on crack:
it has already been implemented over the network and across platforms which means it wasn't that hard now was it?!?
It has been implemented in the two protocols in which it was designed from the start. And even in them it is often set wrong. And sometimes it is not even well defined what would be right. Adding it to an existing system which does not expect it anywhere is a wholly different issue.
-
@levicki said in Java is on crack:
100% finished, 200% defined, and 500% bug free.
Yes, let's replace a working system with something that loses information every time it crosses an interface, just because it's not "500% bug free". Who cares, there's two systems that do it, so it's easy to get the whole world on board.
-
@levicki I rate this rant 4.5 blakeys out of 5.
-
@Gąska Dang it, I was honestly just about to write
contrary to what @gąska said, you seem to be more Blakey than Anti-Blakey.
But with the time to type that additional sentence, you'd have
'd me anyway.
-
@levicki said in Java is on crack:
@topspin said in Java is on crack:
Yes, let's replace a working system
What working system? The one where you can change file name to make OS and apps unable to interpret it anymore?
Look. It works. It's not perfect. But it works. People usually don't have problems with extensions going awry. As opposed to MIME types.
-
@Gąska said in Java is on crack:
@levicki I rate this rant 4.5 blakeys out of 5.
No-one got called a moron, at least 1 blakey should be deducted.
-
@levicki said in Java is on crack:
You are all 1,000% full of shit.
I'll have you know that that's not true. Some of us also have pizza in us.
-
@dkf said in Java is on crack:
@levicki said in Java is on crack:
You are all 1,000% full of shit.
I'll have you know that that's not true. Some of us also have pizza in us.
Some of us are currently working on the coffee.
-
@dkf said in Java is on crack:
@levicki said in Java is on crack:
You are all 1,000% full of shit.
I'll have you know that that's not true. Some of us also have pizza in us.
Pizza is just shit in the making.
-
@dkf said in Java is on crack:
@levicki said in Java is on crack:
You are all 1,000% full of shit.
I'll have you know that that's not true. Some of us also have pizza in us.
I did. Then I was full of shit. Now I'm full of neither.
-
@loopback0 It's all in the timing.
-
-
Since this is now the Official Shit Status thread:
Greetings from the porcelain throne!
-
@levicki said in Java is on crack:
As I said in the post you downvoted because your ego is hurt -- it has already been implemented over the network and across platforms which means it wasn't that hard now was it?!?
No, it's not hard to do it for one tech stack. But doing it for all possible combinations and getting every relevant install updated to the fixed versio s. Now that's Sisyphean levels of work.
-
@Carnage said in Java is on crack:
But doing it for all possible combinations and getting every relevant install updated to the fixed versio s.
And getting everything to actually agree on what the metadata is (as opposed to using “megaphone diplomacy”) makes bringing everything up to date seem easy and reasonable.
-
@dkf said in Java is on crack:
@Carnage said in Java is on crack:
But doing it for all possible combinations and getting every relevant install updated to the fixed versio s.
And getting everything to actually agree on what the metadata is (as opposed to using “megaphone diplomacy”) makes bringing everything up to date seem easy and reasonable.
Yeah, the never ending bickering among software developers is why we need benevolent dictators to get anything done ever.
-
@Carnage said in Java is on crack:
Yeah, the never ending bickering among software developers is why we need benevolent dictators to get anything done ever.
The problem is that there's multiple ways of doing it, and it's not just a potential multiple ways, but rather there are multiple ways actually widely deployed (because of various BDs deciding to at least enforce something in an area they controlled and to stop agonising forever over abstract shit), and the people most likely to force things and actually set about formally standardising everything (as in actual de jure standards) are bureaucratic in the extreme and likely to cause immense pain for everyone else. It's fucked up, and it will get worse.
-
@dkf said in Java is on crack:
@Carnage said in Java is on crack:
Yeah, the never ending bickering among software developers is why we need benevolent dictators to get anything done ever.
The problem is that there's multiple ways of doing it, and it's not just a potential multiple ways, but rather there are multiple ways actually widely deployed (because of various BDs deciding to at least enforce something in an area they controlled and to stop agonising forever over abstract shit), and the people most likely to force things and actually set about formally standardising everything (as in actual de jure standards) are bureaucratic in the extreme and likely to cause immense pain for everyone else. It's fucked up, and it will get worse.
Yeah, if there was a single, correct way of doing it, we'd only have about three wildly different ways of doing it implemented. All wrong of course. With a host of adapters for the different implementations that are all slightly broken.
That's how software gets built, after all.(I wish at least)
-
@levicki said in Java is on crack:
change file name to make OS and apps unable to interpret it anymore
Changing the filename does not affect any software's ability to process the file whatsoever. The extension gives you a hint as to what the contents might be, and Windows can use this information to determine what software to launch when you double click the file. Renaming a
.txt
to.ass
doesn't change the file contents, and you can still open it in Notepad or any other text editor.
-
@hungrier said in Java is on crack:
Changing the filename does not affect any software's ability to process the file whatsoever.
Not always. Sometimes programs depend on the patterns in the filename as well as the contents of the file (the canonical example is an evil bit of C that does something slightly different when compiled as C++) but that is fairly unusual in practice.
It's much harder to write such things now that both C and C++ have the exact same syntax for comments…
-
@dkf said in Java is on crack:
the canonical example is an evil bit of C that does something slightly different when compiled as C++
How it is compiled is, however, controlled by the compiler options. Most build systems are set so they by default compile files with extension
.c
as C and.C
,.cpp
and.cxx
as C++, but it can be overridden.
-
things that work differently when compiled as C++ vs C
using file extensions to determine which compiler to use
using capitalization of file extension to determine which compiler to usePR request: topic title should be changed to "C++ is on crack"
-
@hungrier And PHP is logically therefore on PCP…
-
@levicki said in Java is on crack:
@Carnage said in Java is on crack:
No, it's not hard to do it for one tech stack. But doing it for all possible combinations and getting every relevant install updated to the fixed versio s. Now that's Sisyphean levels of work.
If engineers in the 80s and 90s had that same defeatist mindset Internet would have never happened.
If internet had never happened, your idea would be much more practical.
-
@levicki nice try equating your dumbshit idea of making file data unusable without separate metadata with "everything". No, I'm not opposed to "everything". I'm opposed to your dumbshit idea. And not because I couldn't develop it - I'm opposed because it's a dumbshit idea. It would require humongous amount of work to work reliably over internet, and the benefit would be minimal. Compare to rewriting everything in thd world in Rust, which is something I support, and would require much more work than your idea, but would provide an actual benefit, and it would be really huge.
-
@levicki said in Java is on crack:
If engineers in the 80s and 90s had that same defeatist mindset Internet would have never happened.
Internet only happened because the engineers had that attitude. Otherwise we'd still be waiting for Xanadu and using Multics 0.3215-beta.
-
@hungrier said in Java is on crack:
PR request: topic title should be changed to "C++ is on crack"
Request declined. I would consider renaming to @levicki is on crack though.
-
@Bulb
E_CANT_NAME_EVERY_THREAD_THE_SAME
-
-
@levicki less bugs.
-
@Gąska Providing users are willing to pay the massive cost of the rewrite. They've historically not been keen on that at all…