Fuck this place
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@Polygeekery said in Fuck this place:
These fucking retards have recreated the garage on Discord, and made their own echo chamber, and think they have any room to talk about us. Unbe-fucking-lievable. You couldn't make this shit up. The lack of self-awareness is staggering.
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@Rhywden said in Fuck this place:
You may recall that I don't exempt myself from doing this. I'm fully aware that I'm not blameless.
So I'm not sure why you feel the need to point this out when I've done so myself already?
Because you appear to be incapable of disengaging from your lizard brain and confining that bullshit to the garage. You acknowledge that you are at fault and it's detrimental but you don't take the responsibility upon yourself not to contribute to polluting the rest of the forum. In the next couple weeks you're just going to continue polluting the forum with Brexit bullshit.
The point is that I chose my previous example of "laissez-faire parenting" not by chance. Pretty much anyone should recognize that this style of "anything goes" parenting has disastrous results. The complete opposite, authoritarian-style parenting is equally atrocious. The middle is where it's actually at: Firm but fair rules.
That is difficult and harder, of course, because it always requires fine-tuning, introspection and reflection and is an ongoing process and does not have a static set of rules. Mistakes will be made, yes, but that's the case with anything that's complicated.
If we're thinking about the same set of posts, from my perspective it came down to the individual parents to provide those firm but fair rules and it was not the purview of the state to get involved with their failings. Noone said it was easy and it will probably be a problem until the heat death of the universe. Fun to ramble about if you like but spin it out to its own thread.
This absolute freedom some of you guys demanding is a sign of cowardice or laziness: You don't need to think about what you're doing, you can just give in to any impulse that comes to mind immediately, ruled by your lizard-brain. It's easy.
And you keep overlooking that we advocate that you have the responsibility to behave like an adult. You have the freedom to do what you like but you are responsible for those actions. The repressions of which could be legal, financial or social. You've made a very broad statement here that could cover anything. If you want to ramble, narrow the focus and spin it off into a thread in civilized salon. An invitation that I suspect will go unanswered.
That's all it boils down to: You've been so indoctrinated with a fear of "oppression" that you go completely overboard in the opposite direction. This binary, black-and-white thinking is a rather tried-and-true hallmark of US'ian mindsets.
We're back into pot kettle black territory. You're presenting this as : You think they're heading towards anarchy. They think you're heading towards an over legislated tyranny. The funny thing is one side in bringing in a wanking license and the other side likes living with a constitution. Look in the mirror before making grandiose statements.
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@e4tmyl33t said in Fuck this place:
@Cursorkeys said in Fuck this place:
The garage has been leaking a lot and the easy solution for that is for the mods to do their job and put it back there. And it is a job, in reward for the poistion you have to donate your time, if you don't want that then elect another mod(s).
I don't agree at all with @Weng that he's powerless to act without some form of forum constitution, I've been a mod on a decently large forum and we didn't have a hard list of rules, you talked with other staff if it was something that might be borderline but otherwise you just acted with your best judgement. There doesn't seem to be much point in you existing as a mod otherwise?
It doesn't have to always be the stick either, edit the offending post and just warn the user, most people can take the hint.That would probably require more mods around here...
Is that a bad thing? I have 2 or three people I'd recommend without hesitation.
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@MrL again though, is like Demolition Man all again. It doesn't have to be like the surface, but it doesn't have to be like the sewers either. In my experience, gratuitous insults and yelling at each other is juvenile fun that gets old fast, but most of all brings nothing to the table, leads to eventual stalemate because nobody is going to concede victory or simply the participants grow bored, but most of all it's pointless for the bystanders because it looks like two (or more) mongoloids spittling over each other (so it stops being a forum and it's a rhetorical fight between few people picking sides, reducing engagement and eventually devolving into an echo chamber - and the Garage is an "edgy libertarian" echo chamber).
That old meme, "winning an argument on the internet is like winning the Paralympics", gets even more true when it's unbridled, "disrespectful" debate. But again, this isn't a problem for the participants, but for the forum's overall health. I can definitely see an argument for somewhat heavier moderation (based on good will, common sense, "feeling" the context - because not all interjections are offensive, and on the other hand certain behaviours that may be acceptable to some people may particularly irk others - and not simple rules and "netiquette"). Maybe an "elder" member who has little desire to actively intervene in certain topics but is widely considered to be reasonable. All assemblies have moderation. Why should a forum be exempt?
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How's the forum collective ego challenge processing going? Still going, I see.
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@Weng said in Fuck this place:
I'm also wondering why you think eunuch is an effective insult in the first place.
I'm wondering why you believe he thinks it's an effective insult.
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Like, for example. A sensible rule, or an experiment at least, could be to remove voting in the Garage, as the mere presence of votes may provide feedback for certain "garage-style" behaviour that may be seen as more toxic.
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@Cursorkeys said in Fuck this place:
@e4tmyl33t said in Fuck this place:
@Cursorkeys said in Fuck this place:
The garage has been leaking a lot and the easy solution for that is for the mods to do their job and put it back there. And it is a job, in reward for the poistion you have to donate your time, if you don't want that then elect another mod(s).
I don't agree at all with @Weng that he's powerless to act without some form of forum constitution, I've been a mod on a decently large forum and we didn't have a hard list of rules, you talked with other staff if it was something that might be borderline but otherwise you just acted with your best judgement. There doesn't seem to be much point in you existing as a mod otherwise?
It doesn't have to always be the stick either, edit the offending post and just warn the user, most people can take the hint.That would probably require more mods around here...
Is that a bad thing? I have 2 or three people I'd recommend without hesitation.
Oh, absolutely it'd be a good thing. Hell, I'd probably volunteer, since most of my interaction here is reading with the occasional interjection and the periodic updating of my Lounge post with more WTFHelpdesk shenanigans.
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@Rhywden said in Fuck this place:
The middle is where it's actually at: Firm but fair rules.
I respectfully disagree, firm is unnecessary but fair is extremely important. What people hate is capricious enforcement of rules, like banning @Polygeekery right now. Unless there was something happening on a side-channel it smacks of sudden enforcement of arbitrary rules for the sole reason that nothing was done until something reached a crisis point, i.e. poor management of the situation.
I had you blocked for a while because I thought you were being an arsehole. But that's exactly how it should normally work. Mods should smooth over the top of that and ensure things don't get out of hand.
And I later realised that it was mostly just me being a grumpy
anyway, it's sometimes hard to deal with the fact that you don't get any body-language online. Some things that are just indifference come across as grave insults etc...
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Yeah I'd say the @Polygeekery ban deserves an explanation, given he was a long time, prolific poster both in and outside the Garage, and had a massively positive karma score which means most locals liked him. Did he spam @Weng's messages with goatse or something?
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@blek My guess is he deliberately went over the line in a frothing rage.
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@HardwareGeek said in Fuck this place:
@MrL said in Fuck this place:
Why would you want the forum to do anything?
Because doing something is the point of a forum.
Not this one.
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@admiral_p said in Fuck this place:
Like, for example. A sensible rule, or an experiment at least, could be to remove voting in the Garage, as the mere presence of votes may provide feedback for certain "garage-style" behaviour that may be seen as more toxic.
No? If anything, it gives a way to engage with another person in other ways than slinging shit back at them - so it's REDUCING how much shit is being slung.
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@Gąska it's the upvotes at question, downvotes are fairly rare.
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@Gribnit oh, you're one of those who think that internetpointzzz are what inducing this behavior? No, honey, it's really not. It's just people being assholes. As this forum's history shows, you don't need upvotes for that.
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@Gąska Oh honey? Seriously? You think point systems don't influence behavior then you don't know landapes.
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@Gąska I see your point, but on the other hand I feel it depends on the community (this is a closed community, with fewer participants, this is not Reddit where, by the way, karma fishing is all over the place). In fact, voting may encourage the kind of snarky, offensive behaviour that is often seen in the Garage. Voting carries the risk of making interactions a popularity contest and providing motivation for the authors of certain posts. Furthermore, in the heated debates you see over there, it is usually few active participants. The others may not have the desire to actively participate and gang up on a certain user. They limit themselves to voting. I believe it is worth trying.
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@admiral_p it was tried. For almost 10 years. It didn't work.
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@Gąska according to the posts in the thread, the situation has become worse in time. In my own experience, voteless forums tended to be a bit more civilised.
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@admiral_p according to the posts in the thread, there's much disagreement what happened, or even whether anything happened at all.
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@admiral_p said in Fuck this place:
It's just as I wrote: you think that having civil conversation in inflammatory subjects is possible, but it's not.
Same arguments I've seen dozen of times. People are feeling hurt, it's toxic, we have to moderate like the society, it's only to protect the forum, maybe more mods, maybe someone we all trust.
Results are always the same - boring forum I don't want to participate in.
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@MrL it could be argued that you're just a horrible person.
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@admiral_p said in Fuck this place:
They limit themselves to voting.
I do this a lot. This isn't because I'm disinterested in taking part, it's just that I believe the "don't repeat yourself" programming principle extends to forum interactions. Given my location, often times when I log on the discussion is long over. The vote button gives me a convenient way of interacting after the fact without having to dredge up old posts just to say I agree with @Gąska.
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@Gąska said in Fuck this place:
@MrL it could be argued that you're just a horrible person.
I'm actually a wonderful individual.
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@MrL said in Fuck this place:
@Gąska said in Fuck this place:
@MrL it could be argued that you're just a horrible person.
I'm actually a wonderful individual.
Are the two mutually exclusive?
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@Deadfast if voting were disabled in the Garage what would you do?
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@admiral_p I'd probably lose interest in participating altogether.
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@MrL said in Fuck this place:
@admiral_p said in Fuck this place:
It's just as I wrote: you think that having civil conversation in inflammatory subjects is possible, but it's not.
Same arguments I've seen dozen of times. People are feeling hurt, it's toxic, we have to moderate like the society, it's only to protect the forum, maybe more mods, maybe someone we all trust.
Results are always the same - boring forum I don't want to participate in.No, I don't think that the conversation shouldn't be inflammatory (because that means it would be restrained). I think it could be less pointlessly snarky and "offensive". There are lots of pointless posts in the Garage whose only purpose is the "lol" factor. You're making the wrong assumptions.
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@Deadfast considering the aims of the Garage, that's not necessarily a problem?
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@admiral_p "let's make unproductive things unenjoyable - that way people will stop doing unproductive things! Success!"
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@Gąska you're looking at the issue from the wrong side.
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@admiral_p what's the right side here?
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@Gąska Yeah, now you're doing it. Fuck this place.
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@admiral_p said in Fuck this place:
@Deadfast if voting were disabled in the Garage what would you do?
It would make no difference because no-one posts shit just for likes and it'd disable the ability to downvote a post if you disagreed with it sufficiently.
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@Gąska the right side is that the whole point of this thread is that the Garage has become too "toxic". And the fact that a person who usually only votes and can't interact through voting would stop interacting isn't really a large loss of value (and would steer his contributions and interactions towards other less controversial aspects of the forum, possibly?). On the other hand, the people regularly actually posting in the Garage will carry on posting, maybe limiting their snarky behaviour that amount to name calling and burrrrns and mic drops because they're not getting the cheers from the public.
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@loopback0 my argument is that people do post shit just or at least also for likes though. See: Reddit. (Not saying that this forum = Reddit, I'm saying that you can see this behaviour clearly over there).
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@loopback0 said in Fuck this place:
no-one posts shit just for likes
Haw haw haw. You're right (maybe) but you're missing the point that when likes are present, they influence behavior. No they don't determine it, but they influence it.
FOR THE RECORD: I disagree with removing voting in the Garage, I just want to make clear that voting does make the Garage worse.
FOR POSTERITY: If you want to see what kind of deranged assholes people on this forum really are, check out the garage. The depth of head-up-assedness will stun you. You will find yourself wondering how people managed the sane posts you had seen elsewhere. Also you'll be really surprised how closely libertarianism can align itself with the far right.
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@admiral_p said in Fuck this place:
@Deadfast considering the aims of the Garage, that's not necessarily a problem?
Isn't it? If you're intentionally making it inconvenient to use in order to disincentivize people from using it, you might as well just drop the facade and shut it down altogether.
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@admiral_p said in Fuck this place:
@Gąska the right side is that the whole point of this thread is that the Garage has become too "toxic".
That was the OP's thesis. Many people disagree.
And the fact that a person who usually only votes and can't interact through voting would stop interacting isn't really a large loss of value
That depends on how much value they get from reading and only voting. Looks like they enjoy it this way.
(and would steer his contributions and interactions towards other less controversial aspects of the forum, possibly?).
Or MtG collecting. Who knows. There are many ways to fill void in life. If someone gets driven away from something by a change... under normal circumstances, it means the change was bad. Unless you approach from the PoV that the entire thing is bad to start with, so driving people away is a net positive. It's a valid attitude for something like cigarettes or pollution - but a forum category? Who are you to decide in the name of all people around what's good for them?
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@Gąska said in Fuck this place:
Who are you to decide in the name of all people around what's good for them?
And you jumped the shark with this sentence right here.
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@Gribnit so?
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@Gąska said in Fuck this place:
@Gribnit so?
So as far as I can see, the problem with the Garage is that it is too small and represents too few opinions. It is insular and therefore grows to resemble itself more and more. That can't really be fixed, so fuck it.
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@Gribnit that's a valid point, except not as an answer to the question asked.
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@Gribnit said in Fuck this place:
@Gąska said in Fuck this place:
@Gribnit so?
So as far as I can see, the problem with the Garage is that it is too small and represents too few opinions. It is insular and therefore grows to resemble itself more and more. That can't really be fixed, so fuck it.
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@admiral_p said in Fuck this place:
too "toxic"
Too toxic for what? The general public sections? That's exactly why the Garage exists separately.
People who don't want to put up with the "toxicity" don't have to. In fact, if I remember it right, you actually have to opt-in in order to view it.
If people are too offended by the idea that somewhere conversations they don't appreciate of are being held, the real world must be a severely unpleasant place for them.
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@Gąska it was just an idea, man. Who am I to enforce rules? Why did it always have to be so "serious" with you? By the way my measure wouldn't make the Garage dead, people who want to say shit that does not belong in the other parts of the forum would still do.
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@Rhywden said in Fuck this place:
in the meantime you'll drive away the moderates and people who like discourse without being insulted. We've seen that multiple times. Look at Yami or Arantor. They've washed their hands of this place exactly to that level of shittiness.
Yeah, that's a problem.
I went away for a bit (for unrelated reasons) and came back and a load of people had gone. There were always unwritten rules that we just sort of followed generally and somewhere along the way it seems something changed. What and when I have no idea.
It's not the Sodom or Gomorrah here that it's being made out to be though, and there's still plenty of reason to be here IMO.
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@Gribnit said in Fuck this place:
You're right (maybe) but you're missing the point that when likes are present, they influence behavior. No they don't determine it, but they influence it.
I agree with that, although it's not the likes directly, it's the approval they signify.
Also you'll be really surprised how closely libertarianism can align itself with the far right.
And now you've lost me.
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@loopback0 said in Fuck this place:
a load of people had gone
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@Polygeekery said in Fuck this place:
The lack of self-awareness is staggering.
