Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant
-
@wft Remember: if you say Linux is bad, someone will swoop in from the heavens and instantly go "but Windows is also bad!"
The thought that, hey, maybe ALL computers are shitty and broken all the time never seems to occur to these brave noble Linux defenders.
Nor does that thought that, hey, maybe Linux should improve so that it's BETTER than Windows at some things, instead of just stopping at the point where Linux fans can point and say "but but but Windows!", which I guess is the current quality target.
Fans of OS X don't just constantly post on forums with "but but but Windows!" posts. They treat their OS as its own thing. It gives me the sense that most people use OS X because they want to use OS X and most people use Linux only because they hate Microsoft, which they likely spell with at least one dollar sign.
-
@blakeyrat said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
@wft Remember: if you say Linux is bad, someone will swoop in from the heavens and instantly go "but Windows is also bad!"
The thought that, hey, maybe ALL computers are shitty and broken all the time never seems to occur to these brave noble Linux defenders.
Nor does that thought that, hey, maybe Linux should improve so that it's BETTER than Windows at some things, instead of just stopping at the point where Linux fans can point and say "but but but Windows!", which I guess is the current quality target.
Fans of OS X don't just constantly post on forums with "but but but Windows!" posts. They treat their OS as its own thing. It gives me the sense that most people use OS X because they want to use OS X and most people use Linux only because they hate Microsoft, which they likely spell with at least one dollar sign.
If even it were so... what's your point? To be honest Microsoft's underhanded tactics back in time are a perfectly good reason to wish they cough, wheeze and die. (I use Linux because, whatever fuckery there is, it's usually somewhat more "logical" than on Windows, an OS that at times seems to be possessed, and I refuse to be locked into Apple-land, and however pretty may OSX be, I dislike its internal logic).
-
@blakeyrat and you're also wrong. Mac users shun "PCs" because <made up reasons>, even if their needs actually point to a Windows/Linux PC as a better choice.
-
@wft I've never hinted anywhere docs for stuff on Windows is always good. I've ranted about .NET docs being shit too.
-
@blakeyrat said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
Linux fans can point and say "but but but Windows!", which I guess is the current quality target.
Yup when told Linux sucks in a particular way you always get back the good old "window sucks too". If one can't see the stupidity of that argument then talking about it further is just time and effort wasted.
-
@stillwater said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
@blakeyrat said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
Linux fans can point and say "but but but Windows!", which I guess is the current quality target.
Yup when told Linux sucks in a particular way you always get back the good old "window sucks too". If one can't see the stupidity of that argument then talking about it further is just time and effort wasted.
Yeah but in your case it was more a case of "the instructions are wrong"/"you're supposed to do things differently on Linux because Linux distros have embraced the idea of the central repository long before anybody else". And before compiling stuff yourself, there is at least one other option usually, sometimes two (and three, actually, if you consider moving to a newer distro an option).
It can be a pain if you have a LTS distro and you actually want very new software, and sometimes PPAs aren't enough (because they would have to supply a shitload of libraries and infrastructure). But LTS distros and very new software are a contradiction.
-
Fuck Linux with a large purple dildo. Repeat, lather, rinse.
-
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
Yeah but in your case it was more a case of "the instructions are wrong"/"you're supposed to do things differently on Linux because Linux distros have embraced the idea of the central repository long before anybody else". And before compiling stuff yourself, there is at least one other option usually, sometimes two (and three, actually, if you consider moving to a newer distro an option).
Yes. And your point is? What are you on about?
-
@CHUDbert said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
Fuck Linux with a large purple dildo. Repeat, lather, rinse.
Angry at Linux but no context or rant to back it up. Disappointed.
-
@stillwater said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
Yeah but in your case it was more a case of "the instructions are wrong"/"you're supposed to do things differently on Linux because Linux distros have embraced the idea of the central repository long before anybody else". And before compiling stuff yourself, there is at least one other option usually, sometimes two (and three, actually, if you consider moving to a newer distro an option).
Yes. And your point is? What are you on about?
My point is, if you are unfamiliar with the system, it's not the system's fault, and saying "but Windows" is or can be a way to point out that there are other gotchas on Windows that aren't gotchas for you because you expect them, or you know that's not the way you're supposed to do stuff on Windows.
-
@blakeyrat I don’t see how Linux being bad is a logical consequence of a lousy tutorial being lousy. I know for the fact that all software sucks.
The problems I come across, however, are not unfuckable as easily :(
-
@stillwater said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
If one can't see the stupidity of that argument then talking about it further is just time and effort wasted.
YMBNH™
-
@loopback0 don't know what this acronym means :(
-
@stillwater Wow, YMreallyBNH.
-
@wft said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
I don’t see how Linux being bad is a logical consequence of a lousy tutorial being lousy
It is not. My frustration with Linux comes out time and again. This time it was in response to someone saying Join the anti Linux side or something. And yeah most software suck regardless of Linux or Windows.
-
@stillwater CPM is no longer run and therefore has attained perfection. MPM, even more so.
-
@stillwater I dunno, maybe reserve your frustration for things more worth it, like, you’re only going to get older from this second on.
-
@wft That's negative utility information, but it's arguably covered by "all choices lead to death".
-
@stillwater said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
@loopback0 don't know what this acronym means :(
YMBNH™
-
@wft said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
@stillwater I dunno, maybe reserve your frustration for things more worth it, like, you’re only going to get older from this second on.
Fair point. Suggestion taken.
-
@ben_lubar said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
libx32
- 64-bit libraries (move over, wow64!)On mine (a 64-bit Kubuntu) these appear to be 32-bit libraries.
$ ldd /usr/libx32/libgcc_s.so.1 linux-vdso.so.1 => (0xffdd2000) libc.so.6 => /libx32/libc.so.6 (0xf7223000) /libx32/ld-linux-x32.so.2 (0x565c0000)
I have all of these:
lib
,lib32
,lib64
,libx32
.
-
@dkf said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
@Unperverted-Vixen said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
Is there any software that actually qualifies for
/opt
that isn't a game?Commercial software, especially of the “well that's rather expensive but I need it” sort, such as ANSYS or ARM's own compiler. The latter generates quite a bit better code than GCC, and that's really useful on some systems due to resource constraints.
Google Chrome's Debian package installs in there, too.
-
Give me BSD any day. Linus torvolds is a proven dick... eg git. Fuck that too. I’m old enough to have booted minix via floppy disks.
-
@CHUDbert
systemd
. Would rather have some dick want to keep from corrupting user space with garbage, than fucking Lenny Poettering on my pid 0.
-
@CHUDbert never understood the complaint. He's just outspoken and not exactly "professional" in his communication. So?
-
@CHUDbert said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
I’m old enough to have booted minix via floppy disks.
-
@stillwater said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
I could not get over the feeling of giving my PC an STD so found a middle ground.
Windows subsystem for Linux - Ubuntu.
So far so good.
That doesn't work with docker
-
@Unperverted-Vixen said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
Is there any software that actually qualifies for /opt that isn't a game?
There's a bunch of commercial software that goes there. Portage (the Gentoo package manager) even installs some of it there. The ones that I've seen include Intel compilers, PGI's compilers, CUDA, Matlab. Acrobat Reader used to too.
-
@cvi I think OpenOffice back when it was a Sun project used to go in /opt too.
-
@Gribnit said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
systemd. Would rather have some dick want to keep from corrupting user space with garbage, than fucking Lenny Poettering on my pid 0.
Poettering may not be the most likable person, but why do you care? From an end user's perspective, there's absolutely nothing wrong with systemd.
I still don't get why some people are such drama queens about this. There's now a new init system. You can still control which services you want to start and it's easy to create a service yourself. Who cares about anything else?
BTW: If
systemd
is your PID 0, then you should probably nuke your computer from orbit before Sheogorath's madness spreads any further.
-
@dfdub said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
BTW: If systemd is your PID 0,
PID 0 isn't a thing.
Also:
PID TTY STAT TIME COMMAND 1 ? Ssl 0:00 node loader.js
-
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
you're supposed to do things differently on Linux because Linux distros have embraced the idea of the central repository long before anybody else
Which, BTW, typing the application version to the OS version is about the dumbest idea ever done in computers ever.
Note that when companies like Steam, Apple and Microsoft took the "app store" concept they actually let apps in the store update themselves whenever they want instead of having to wait for an entire OS release.
-
@dfdub said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
From an end user's perspective, there's absolutely nothing wrong with systemd.
systemd brings Linux services up to Windows 2000 standards. You'd think the Linux community would be jumping with joy.
-
@blakeyrat then use a rolling release distro? The reason for tying the application version to the OS version is to ensure that nothing (in theory) breaks.
-
@admiral_p It's a lot easier to just have stable libraries like every other OS. It's a stupid solution to a dumb problem which was solved forever by other people in the fucking 1980s.
-
@blakeyrat but then you have the problem of ensuring backwards compatibility. As always, in the OSS world, you do things differently. Benefits of breaking (both ABI and API, but the latter only happens between major versions. This happens everywhere) compatibility: you can actually improve stuff. Drawbacks: you have to recompile and possibly refactor stuff once in a while. The kernel does not do this anyway (in userspace) and they have their reasons.
-
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
@blakeyrat but then you have the problem of ensuring backwards compatibility.
No; that's the SOLUTION for backwards compatibility.
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
As always, in the OSS world, you do things differently.
Yah. Worse.
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
Benefits of breaking (both ABI and API) compatibility: you can actually improve stuff.
Then why isn't Git improving at all?
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
Drawbacks: you have to recompile stuff once in a while.
And nothing older than 3 years works anymore.
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
The kernel does not do this anyway (in userspace) and they have their reasons.
I don't know what "this" refers to in this sentence. Recompile? That doesn't make sense; there's no kernel releases all the time.
-
@blakeyrat Snap does that. But I already found a serious bug where my snaps stopped working. Ans they keep setting the bug status to "incomplete" without saying what else information they need. So there is still a long way to go. No idea if the flatpak thing is doing any better.
You probably would be able to find lots of problems with this idea if you take a good look, but I think this concept is a huge improvement over apt and yum.
-
@blakeyrat said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
That doesn't make sense; there's no kernel releases all the time.
Yes, there are very frequently moments where no new kernel is released.
-
@ben_lubar There are also many moments where Ben L is a smartass
-
@blakeyrat said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
Then why isn't Git improving at all?
The answer to that by OSS fuckbois is usually "Because Git is glorious and the epitome of perfection in programming and if you think it is not mind-blowing then surely something is wrong with you."
-
@stillwater said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
Fanboys incoming to defend the honor of Linux pretty soon. In all seriousness, I'm not using Linux cos I want to but I need to, so I guess my way of apt-get install and pip install should be good enough for most of the linuxy stuff?!
Yeah, use apt over compiling your own packages.
-
@ben_lubar said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
PID 0 isn't a thing.
Thanks for explaining my joke.
-
@dfdub said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
@ben_lubar said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
PID 0 isn't a thing.
Thanks for explaining my joke.
You got your joke wrong, though. PID 0 does exist, and it's the kernel scheduler.
-
@blakeyrat said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
@blakeyrat but then you have the problem of ensuring backwards compatibility.
No; that's the SOLUTION for backwards compatibility.
Which doesn't really work that well anyway. At least in my experience, old software on new Windows releases is not guaranteed to work.
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
As always, in the OSS world, you do things differently.
Yah. Worse.
Subjective. In the OSS (especially GPL) world, you're expected to engage with the community.
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
Benefits of breaking (both ABI and API) compatibility: you can actually improve stuff.
Then why isn't Git improving at all?
Irrelevant.
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
Drawbacks: you have to recompile stuff once in a while.
And nothing older than 3 years works anymore.
Untrue anyway. If a distro is so inclined, it can maintain old libraries and stuff back to the start of time. With OSS, it's not an issue because you just recompile stuff as needed (and the software which builds upon certain libraries can improve too without changing a single line of code sometimes). With commercial software, they can provide their own libraries. With snaps or flatpaks, even more so.
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
The kernel does not do this anyway (in userspace) and they have their reasons.
I don't know what "this" refers to in this sentence. Recompile? That doesn't make sense; there's no kernel releases all the time.
Break ABI/API. You can run binaries back from 1996 on a current kernel (with few, motivated exceptions).
-
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
Break ABI/API. You can run binaries back from 1996 on a current kernel (with few, motivated exceptions).
No, you can't. The kernel isn't the only thing breaking ABI.
-
@sockpuppet7 binaries include libraries.
-
@sockpuppet7 said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
Break ABI/API. You can run binaries back from 1996 on a current kernel (with few, motivated exceptions).
No, you can't. The kernel isn't the only thing breaking ABI.
I think he's saying you could run a current kernel with a 1996 userspace.
-
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
Which doesn't really work that well anyway. At least in my experience, old software on new Windows releases is not guaranteed to work.
Until AMD's 64-bit CPU designed forced them to abandon 16-bit apps, Windows still ran Visicalc. (I bet if you install the 32-bit version of Windows it does to this day.)
In Windows-land, if a program is incompatible with future OS versions, it's the program's fault because they violated the API contract. That's not true of any other OS. (Macintosh: Apple threw out 68k compat, then PPC compat, then Classic API compat. On Linux: the API has no real contract, GUI applications have no stable APIs, there's no way to have backwards compat without application source.)
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
Untrue anyway. If a distro is so inclined, it can maintain old libraries and stuff back to the start of time.
Right; and they COULD also give each of their users 26 bars of 24-carat gold. But since none do, why bother discussing it?
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
With OSS, it's not an issue because you just recompile stuff as needed (and the software which builds upon certain libraries can improve too without changing a single line of code sometimes).
And if it uses GUI code that no longer exists or is no longer maintained? Fuck you! What if you don't know how to recompile stuff? Fuck you! What if the source code isn't available to you? Fuck you!
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
With commercial software, they can provide their own libraries. With snaps or flatpaks, even more so.
But if there's a security flaw in their own libraries, you're stuck with it (the flaw) forever. You have no way of fixing it, and if you tried the fix would change the incredibly unstable API and break the application.
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
With snaps or flatpaks, even more so.
If these were available in 1999 or so this would be a different discussion. But it's like just a couple years since the horrible people who run Linux thought to themselves, "hey, maybe our OS should be less ass?"
@admiral_p said in Python Installation using sudo make install + obligatory Linux rant:
Break ABI/API. You can run binaries back from 1996 on a current kernel (with few, motivated exceptions).
As long as the application doesn't want to draw windows or interact with a printer or...
The kernel doesn't do shit. The kernel ABI doesn't matter. All the other stuff does.
... also why 1996? Isn't Linux from 1991? Does this mean they... GASP!... broke compatibility!?!?!?
-
This post is deleted!