Should everyone learn to code?
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@izzion Which would be all very well, except the same sorts of problems were observed in other countries with different governments. (The impact varied from place to place.) That's why I really don't trust the “government is the sole author of the tragedy” narrative: it simply doesn't fit the facts. By contrast, @Benjamin-Hall's argument has more explanatory power when you have a more international perspective, together with the observation that there's likely a tangling up of banking and politics through the schemes used by high finance to gain “influence” over politics, and that the countries that had some of the biggest problems look likely to have had most of such “influence”.
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@dkf The ultimate cause was too much money looking for "safe" investments. The timing and severity of the crash (which was way worse than it should have been) depended on a circular cluster-expletive with governments (who set what it means to be "safe" and pushed all sorts of things in strange directions), banks (who were chasing yield), brokers (who saw an exploit), and buyers (who were also looking for loopholes) all responsible. The results differed between countries, but the same story holds.
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@boomzilla said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@thecpuwizard said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@benjamin-hall said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@Gąska @boomzilla @M_Adams I was particularly thinking of the government policies that encouraged banks to make bad decisions. 100% to blame, all at the same time.**
Not exactly, it was the government removing restrictions preventing the banks from making bad decisions [of that type and scale]. Then the banks just were "doin what comes naturally".
I have never heard better than a hand waving argument for this. OTOH, you had things like Fannie Mae actively contributing to the problem.
Exactly. Fannie Mae / Freddy Mac put out quotas saying 1/XX loans (1/5, 1/3 ?? IDNR) had to be for "disadvantaged" applicants in their "service area". Doing what comes naturally, the banks would have told those applicants to "take a hike", but because of the quotas, they could not.
EDIT--
by 
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@pie_flavor said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@pie_flavor said in Should everyone learn to code?:
You think that's what was meant? Seriously?
I know what it meant; that someone in this thread was treating programming as an "end" and not as a "means". Which is wrong-think that I'm going to point out whenever it comes up.
Which was irrelevant to what I was saying. Programming professionally is selling your software to other people. Whether or not you use a program you wrote yourself to assist in your work does not factor into the definition of programming professionally. Words have meanings, yes?
From what I remember reading, the statement about using software professionally did not have an adjective indicating it was as a software professional. Technically pointing out a lawyer (who is a professional) using or making software would be an example of somebody doing it in support of their profession. It's a little weird to then say it's being done professionally, but I got the point.
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@mikehurley said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@pie_flavor said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@pie_flavor said in Should everyone learn to code?:
You think that's what was meant? Seriously?
I know what it meant; that someone in this thread was treating programming as an "end" and not as a "means". Which is wrong-think that I'm going to point out whenever it comes up.
Which was irrelevant to what I was saying. Programming professionally is selling your software to other people. Whether or not you use a program you wrote yourself to assist in your work does not factor into the definition of programming professionally. Words have meanings, yes?
From what I remember reading, the statement about using software professionally did not have an adjective indicating it was as a software professional. Technically pointing out a lawyer (who is a professional) using or making software would be an example of somebody doing it in support of their profession. It's a little weird to then say it's being done professionally, but I got the point.
The reverse analogy would be a software developer looking over an open source or other source code/binary license. They are doing legal stuff in support of their profession but it would also be weird to say they're doing it professionally.
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@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Still curious how much jumping is in handegg.
I am entirely disinterested in both forms of chasing a piece of leather across a lawn, but from what little of it I've been inflicted with I must say there is more impressive jumping in the American version. The Australian form is the least horrible to watch, being a blood sport and all.
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I'm in the camp that a computer is just a fancy calculator and that everybody should learn enough coding to do their monthly budget or other similar large-ish scale problem (for a normie), ideally in a text-based language.
If they need more for a job/domain, they'll have some of the basics down and can use that as a foundation.
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@boomzilla said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Still curious how much jumping is in handegg.
OK, I have to ask. What the fuck do eggs look like where you live?
After being overly-handled, like the one in the right picture here..
But you knew that already...
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@pjh said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@boomzilla said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Still curious how much jumping is in handegg.
OK, I have to ask. What the fuck do eggs look like where you live?
After being overly-handled, like the one in the right picture here..
But you knew that already...
No, I find that frankly amazing. Compare:
The one on the right is the shape of American eggs. (I even picked a brownish egg for comparison.) But perhaps your chickens have evolved since the original big and little endians.
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@boomzilla said in Should everyone learn to code?:
The one on the right is the shape of American eggs. (I even picked a brownish egg for comparison.) But perhaps your chickens have evolved since the original big and little endians.
The definition of "egg shaped" does not constrain itself to that of a chicken egg [uneven ends - a small one and a larger one]. That is largely caused by a deformation process during the laying of the eggs.
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@thecpuwizard I don't really care what caused it. I'm just worried about European chickens and European eyesight to continue to confuse soccer balls with footballs and footballs with eggs.
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@boomzilla said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@pjh said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@boomzilla said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Still curious how much jumping is in handegg.
OK, I have to ask. What the fuck do eggs look like where you live?
After being overly-handled, like the one in the right picture here..
But you knew that already...
No, I find that frankly amazing. Compare:
The one on the right is the shape of American eggs. (I even picked a brownish egg for comparison.) But perhaps your chickens have evolved since the original big and little endians.
I see your point. It should be called hand ellipsoid instead.
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@pleegwat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
I see your point. It should be called hand ellipsoid instead.
Wow, now you guys are confusing hands with feet? It's worse than I thought!
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@boomzilla is it the upright or downright?
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@homobalkanus I can't be held accountable for displays that are 3px too narrow!
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@boomzilla said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@pleegwat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
I see your point. It should be called hand ellipsoid instead.
Wow, now you guys are confusing hands with feet? It's worse than I thought!
Look, it's foot-sphere and hand-ellipsoid. I'd think even a USAian could understand that.
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@pleegwat Yeah, I'm afraid this just isn't helping your case. A football is clearly elipsoid like but pointy, so I can't understand why you'd call it a sphere. And a handball is actually very much like a racquetball.
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@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Has Visual Studio improved? No. 2016 is notably worse than 2010 in a dozen ways, most obviously its shit stability.
It's also noticeably better in a lot of ways.
@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Was WPF an improvement over WinForms from a usabillity/accessible/etc perspective?
This is a mix of yes and no. I think they ideally expected you to have a UI expert working with Blend, and a dev team working with Visual Studio. And Blend is pretty cool, honestly.
But even without that, XAML is pretty good to work with. It does have an initial wall of difficulty, and I wish it didn't, but treating everything as a visual tree is very useful.
And an application made with WPF has very good accessibility. If you don't mess with default templates crazily, you can still solve some really complex UI problems while still supporting every possible input device and accessibility option.
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@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Still curious how much jumping is in handegg.
There is 8 jumping. 8 exactly. That's how much jumping there is. 8.
8 what? Jumps? Hours? I'm honestly curious how the couple dozen headers and volleys you see in average football match compares to whatever you do in handegg.
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@gąska Considering evading people and catching things are the core of the game, I would expect lots of jumping.
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GODDAMIT, FBMAC!
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@Gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
And you absolutely can have everyone having their own house without credits - with the caveat most people will have it by age of 45, not 30.
Or it will be a cheap, low-quality structure.
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@djls45 American homes already are cheap and low quality.
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@PleegWat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@boomzilla said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@PleegWat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
I see your point. It should be called hand ellipsoid instead.
Wow, now you guys are confusing hands with feet? It's worse than I thought!
Look, it's foot-sphere and hand-ellipsoid. I'd think even a USAian could understand that.
If one desires to refer unambiguously to these historically related outdoor sports, one could use the terms "Association Football," "Gridiron Football," "Australian Rules Football," "Gaelic Football," and "Rugby."
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@djls45 XFL
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@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Still curious how much jumping is in handegg.
There is 8 jumping. 8 exactly. That's how much jumping there is. 8.
8 what? Jumps? Hours? I'm honestly curious how the couple dozen headers and volleys you see in average football match compares to whatever you do in handegg.
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@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@djls45 XFL
I haven't coded in that.... how is it? ;)
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@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
There's zero effort in making any established "professional" tools better.
The Visual Studio Installer has certainly become much better. Git For Windows is adding more features and better explanations. GPG4Win installs a GUI by default now. LLVM can actually be built on Windows with minimal effort, unlike a few years ago. CMake keeps adding features that make it easier to use (e.g. package config file generation so you don't need to write find modules). Maybe we're just not looking in the same places.
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@carnage said in Should everyone learn to code?:
I am entirely disinterested in both forms of chasing a piece of leather across a lawn
That's probably a good thing. @boomzilla tends to object to such things.
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@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Everybody can learn music to an acceptable degree. Everybody can learn to paint to an acceptable degree. (And to be clear, I'm not saying you can take any random kid and make them Rembrandt.) We, as a society, all agree on that.
Citation needed.
Define "learn music." Define "acceptable degree."
There are multiple aspects to "music," and they vary in the ease with which they can be learned. Are you talking about music appreciation — learing to understand "the value and merit of different styles of music." Learning this requires little more than listening more-or-less carefully to different styles of music. However, not everyone is willing to do this — "music of dead white guys is culturally oppressive and irrelevant," or whatever — therefore, they can't learn it.
Are you talking about playing an instrument? If "acceptable degree" merely means "well enough that they enjoy it," maybe. If "acceptable degree" means "well enough that listeners don't cover their ears and run away screaming," I'm going to say no. Using myself as an example, I love music and have studied it on-and-off for decades, including a year of piano in university. I enjoy playing piano, but I do it very badly, and my own enjoyment is tempered by my frustration at playing badly. Practise is, of course, necessary for mastering any skill, but the amount of practise required varies. I can only get to an "acceptable" (to me) level of learning any specific piece by playing that specific piece over and over and over and over and over and over, and that practice does not (for me) transfer to playing any other piece. And even with all that practise, I still play wrong notes, just not as many as when I started. Could I improve with additional lessons and practise? Undoubtedly. Could I reach an "acceptable" level? Maybe; I was pretty close (IMO) when I was taking the piano classes in college, but it took more time and effort than I could afford to spend on it. (I gave up and didn't take the final exam, because my other classes didn't leave me time to practise enough to play it with acceptable skill.)
Are you talking about creating original music? There are "design patterns" that can be followed that will result in creating music that is not awful. Depending on the definition of "acceptable degree," it is perhaps possible that anybody can learn the patterns well enough to make your statement true, but I don't really want to listen to the result.
I disagree about learning to paint, too. I have enough knowledge of how light interacts with pigments of various colors to mix and apply paint acceptably (to me). However, part of painting is drawing the thing to be painted onto the canvas before starting to apply paint. And I tend to fail badly at the drawing part. Think funhouse mirror distortion, when my goal is to be photorealistic. Could I learn to an acceptable degree? No, because it's not worth the time and effort to me; I'd rather spend my time doing other things.
@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Why have some people decided that the same concept does not apply to instructing a computer to do shit?
Some people seem to be temperamentally unsuited to it. Just like, for whatever reason, I am unsuited to improving my fine motor skills enough to play the piano or draw acceptably.
Learning just about anything requires time and effort on the part of the learner. Many people are not willing to put that into learning to "instructing a computer to do shit." My ex-wife is not stupid, but her interaction with a computer was rote memorization of "to do this task, click this menu, then this submenu, then this item, then drag a box around the thing, then press enter." No interest in understanding why that sequence of operations gives the desired result. Needs to do a similar task? Experiment to see what other menu items do? Nope. "I don't want to know all that stuff; just tell me which buttons to push."
Also, some people are more intuitive than logical. "I shouldn't have to tell you what to do; you should know what I want and just do it." Again, using my ex-wife as an example, she expected people to read her mind. And she expected computers to "not make me explain everything, just do what I want," too. And until we get neural interfaces so that the computer can literally read the user's mind, that's not going to happen. Until then, programming (and even using) a computer requires breaking a task into a sequence of actions, and some people don't want to think that much; they just want a "magic happens" button.
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@hardwaregeek said in Should everyone learn to code?:
And until we get neural interfaces so that the computer can literally read the user's mind, that's not going to happen.
I'm pretty sure neural interfaces won't help either. What users want to do often gives a very different result than desired.
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@hardwaregeek said in Should everyone learn to code?:
until we get neural interfaces so that the computer can literally read the user's mind
You can tell when we get that; computers will start spontaneously turning themselves off in sheer horror…
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@boomzilla said in Should everyone learn to code?:
a handball is actually very much like a racquetball.
Neither of those looks like a handball, which looks like this:
In fact they don’t even seem to be 58 to 60 cm in circumference, like they should be according to the rules for handball (see page 3).
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Neither kind of football is called "football" because you kick the ball with your foot.
Gridiron Football, as played by the NFL and NCAA, is named after the fact that prior to the 1930s, the ball was 12 inches ("one foot") long. (They changed it to 11.5 inches in the 1930s to make the forward pass easier to throw.)
Association Football, as sanctioned by FIFA, is named after the fact that it's played "on foot," unlike polo, which is played on horseback. (The connotation was that soccer is a game for peasants.)
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@benjamin-hall said in Should everyone learn to code?:
I see kids pulling out calculators to divide 64 by 2. Or divide 10000 by 10.
I once worked as a tutor. It gets worse than that. For instance, -2 divided by 2 (or else it was the other way around).
There was also the kid who wrote -E- as the answer for a question, because that's what the calculator had on the screen when they finished pressing buttons (for the young'uns: back in the day, this meant "Error" and was what you got from divide by 0 or square root of a negative number or such).
@carnage said in Should everyone learn to code?:
The Australian form is the least horrible to watch, being a blood sport and all.
And lots of impressive jumping!
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@thecpuwizard said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@djls45 XFL
I haven't coded in that.... how is it? ;)
Currently vaporware...
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@hardwaregeek said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@carnage said in Should everyone learn to code?:
I am entirely disinterested in both forms of chasing a piece of leather across a lawn
That's probably a good thing. @boomzilla tends to object to such things.
Best to chase smaller, harder bits of gutta percha across a lawn.
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@gurth said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@boomzilla said in Should everyone learn to code?:
a handball is actually very much like a racquetball.
Neither of those looks like a handball, which looks like this:
In fact they don’t even seem to be 58 to 60 cm in circumference, like they should be according to the rules for handball (see page 3).
Wow. You guys must be giants.
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@guywhokilledbear said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Neither kind of football is called "football" because you kick the ball with your foot.
Gridiron Football, as played by the NFL and NCAA, is named after the fact that prior to the 1930s, the ball was 12 inches ("one foot") long. (They changed it to 11.5 inches in the 1930s to make the forward pass easier to throw.)
Association Football, as sanctioned by FIFA, is named after the fact that it's played "on foot," unlike polo, which is played on horseback. (The connotation was that soccer is a game for peasants.)
So, the proper names should be "imperial football" and "onfootball"?
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@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
So, the proper names should be "imperial football" and "onfootball"?
Fooutball.
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@guywhokilledbear said in Should everyone learn to code?:
a game for pheasants
http://mjscreations.com/images/games/games/Pheasant-Fever-game.jpg
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@boomzilla said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@thecpuwizard said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@djls45 XFL
I haven't coded in that.... how is it? ;)
Currently vaporware...
That explains it... I don't vape, preferring the "real thing" [and I am not talking about Coca Cola]
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@thecpuwizard there's coke vape?
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@pjh said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
So, the proper names should be "imperial football" and "onfootball"?
Fooutball.
Acceptable.
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This post is deleted!
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@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@guywhokilledbear said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Neither kind of football is called "football" because you kick the ball with your foot.
Gridiron Football, as played by the NFL and NCAA, is named after the fact that prior to the 1930s, the ball was 12 inches ("one foot") long. (They changed it to 11.5 inches in the 1930s to make the forward pass easier to throw.)
Association Football, as sanctioned by FIFA, is named after the fact that it's played "on foot," unlike polo, which is played on horseback. (The connotation was that soccer is a game for peasants.)
So, the proper names should be "imperial football" and "onfootball"?
No. They should be "football" and "metric football."
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@guywhokilledbear more like football and 70cmball. Although "0.7ball" sounds better, it would greatly confuse Polish people since over here, "0.7" has very specific meaning.
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