WTF Bites
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@boomzilla I use them a fair bit to generate ordered coordinate grids and transitive graph closures (so I can do rectangular allocations of resources from a very large grid with a cross-check for the actual connectivity graph of the hardware as deployed). Without recursive CTEs, grids would have to be done with temporary tables and I've no idea how I'd do the graph connectivity (but it would probably involve hauling all the data out of the database first, which is Just Yuck).
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@boomzilla said in WTF Bites:
Recursive CTEs definitely can
Uh...hmm...that's something I would have never thought could have been a thing.
I think you could use hierarchical queries in Oracle. I don't think they allow it in CTE's, since I think you're only allowed to refer to previously defined CTEs not the current or future ones.
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@boomzilla said in WTF Bites:
Recursive CTEs definitely can
Uh...hmm...that's something I would have never thought could have been a thing.
I think you could use hierarchical queries in Oracle. I don't think they allow it in CTE's, since I think you're only allowed to refer to previously defined CTEs not the current or future ones.
Yeah, that might have been part of my issue here since that's pretty much the only place I've used them.
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@Gąska which requires reentrancy unless tail.
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@boomzilla probably reentrancy
ITYM rearentrancy. A feature that doesn't shoot you in the foot for a change.
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@boomzilla said in WTF Bites:
Did they explain how CTEs could facilitate Turing-completeness?
Recursive CTEs definitely can, as they can work with “practically infinite” sets and calculate transitive closures.
Transitive closures only require primitive recursion, and I think the intent was to only allow that. But selecting from sequences does allow minimization, giving you general recursion and thus Turing-completeness.
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Transitive closures only require primitive recursion, and I think the intent was to only allow that. But selecting from sequences does allow minimization, giving you general recursion and thus Turing-completeness.
The example I saw when starting to use them had recursive CTEs being used to compute a Mandelbrot set image in ASCII art. I decided I didn't need anything quite that complicated…
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WTF of my day: One year ago I had bought a Logitech G903 mouse which last week began to exhibit a known problem - namely that the right mouse button was showing false double-clicks. I.e. you'd hold down the right mouse button but instead you'd get a double-right-click.
Turns out that it's a known problem, the Amazon review page is (now) full of comments about this and there are even videos how to solder in new switches yourself.
Well, as I'm still within warranty (which is basically two years in the EU for stuff like this - yes, that's a simplification) I first went to the guys I paid money to: Amazon. Clicked on: "I need support for this product" and got told in turn to contact the manufacturer. Alright?
Off to Logitech I went - where the tech support drone (after getting a purchase receipt and the S/N) told me that "the mouse was registered by someone else" and thus I should contact the original buyer
I told her that this is a very weird interpretation of the law. Then she told me to make a video demonstrating the problem (there's actually a webpage dedicated to this - go figure!) and I could successfully show the false clicks. I then was to make a video showing the actual mouse, its S/N and the handwritten ticket number side by side.
Did that and she told me to expect an email because she'd have to escalate that. Right.
Ten minutes later I got an email where they basically stated that I could send the mouse in for analysis but said analysis could be destructive and I could be left with a completely inoperable device. In such a case there'd also be no recourse.
After reading that I remembered that I still had this legal insurance where I could ask for legal help. The lawyer on the other end told me that I should contact Amazon again as they are supposed to deal with this first.
Did contact Amazon directly this time and the agent told me that, due to the mouse coming from and being sold by a 3rd party vendor she could not replace the mouse. But she could return my money now and all I'd have to do is to send the mouse back. Good thing I obsessively keep the packaging for such devices (even though she told me that it's not required).
Next mouse will not be Logitech. I dug through the reports about this issue and it seems that all their upper tier mice are affected. And for at least two years now...
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@dkf that just sounds like a lot of simplicity yielding emergent properties- where's the complexity?
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Next mouse will not be Logitech
And on the base these words remain
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings...
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Next mouse will not be Logitech. I dug through the reports about this issue and it seems that all their upper tier mice are affected. And for at least two years now...
God damnit. Shopping for a good mouse is like pulling teeth, I hope my Logitech will last a while longer.
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Next mouse will not be Logitech. I dug through the reports about this issue and it seems that all their upper tier mice are affected. And for at least two years now...
God damnit. Shopping for a good mouse is like pulling teeth, I hope my Logitech will last a while longer.
I stocked up on TrackMan Marble from eBay a few years ago. Currently on my second FX wireless because the first one started guzzling batteries like crazy, like one AA LiMH cell in about two days which is supposed to last 2+ weeks.
The innards look suspiciously similar to the USB Marble Mouse my wife uses though, so I'm already waiting for her to declare the current one worn out so I can gut it and turn the FX into a plain USB version without any battery issues.
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Next mouse will not be Logitech. I dug through the reports about this issue and it seems that all their upper tier mice are affected. And for at least two years now...
God damnit. Shopping for a good mouse is like pulling teeth, I hope my Logitech will last a while longer.
I stocked up on TrackMan Marble from eBay a few years ago. Currently on my second FX wireless because the first one started guzzling batteries like crazy, like one AA LiMH cell in about two days which is supposed to last 2+ weeks.
The innards look suspiciously similar to the USB Marble Mouse my wife uses though, so I'm already waiting for her to declare the current one worn out so I can gut it and turn the FX into a plain USB version without any battery issues.Ah, the intestines out kind of mouse. I can't get used to those.
Currently on MX Master/G905.
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Next mouse will not be Logitech
And on the base these words remain
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings...Obligatory recital:
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Ten minutes later I got an email where they basically stated that I could send the mouse in for analysis but said analysis could be destructive and I could be left with a completely inoperable device. In such a case there'd also be no recourse.
Yeah, there's no way in hell that is legal. I mean, sure, maybe they can render it "inoperable", but that's none of your business. They can drop it off a building if they want to, as long as they send you a replacement or refund your money.
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Next mouse will not be Logitech. I dug through the reports about this issue and it seems that all their upper tier mice are affected.
In my experience, this pretty much applies to all mice, of all tiers. Eventually, the button switches become flaky. Unless something else breaks first.
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Ah, the intestines out kind of mouse. I can't get used to those.
I bought one of those a while ago, the only left-handed model any manufacturer makes, as far as I could find. I definitely didn't have the fine position control I have with a normal mouse, either right-hand or left-hand. Then it died and became completely unresponsive to any operation, movement or button.
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@HardwareGeek said in WTF Bites:
In my experience, this pretty much applies to all mice, of all tiers. Eventually, the button switches become flaky. Unless something else breaks first.
The switches eventually wear out, yeah. But on some mice, they wear out unreasonably quickly.
Fortunately, replacing the switches yourself isn't very difficult.
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Next mouse will not be Logitech. I dug through the reports about this issue and it seems that all their upper tier mice are affected. And for at least two years now...
FWIW I've had my Logitech G502 for a few years now and knock wood no switch problems so far. I've also had two consecutive Microsoft mice develop the exact same problem on the left button switch within a few months.
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@hungrier I haven't used a mouse in at least a year. Trackpads don't suck quite bad enough to be unusable, whereas mice aren't a unitary part of my laptop - so when it's torches and pitchforks time they tend to get lost. I still do make sure to sign any Magic Mice before losing them, too.
In re left button, try playing fewer Japanese clickers.
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@Zerosquare said in WTF Bites:
@HardwareGeek said in WTF Bites:
In my experience, this pretty much applies to all mice, of all tiers. Eventually, the button switches become flaky. Unless something else breaks first.
The switches eventually wear out, yeah. But on some mice, they wear out unreasonably quickly.
Fortunately, replacing the switches yourself isn't very difficult.
There are statements from several people of the switches dying after a mere 2 months. Some even had it out of the box. Others were up to 7 replacements with all of them being defective after a while.
And with the G903, replacing the switches is pretty daunting - first, you need new teflon pads because some of the screws are under those pads (which are glued to the mouse). Removing the pad usually destroys at least one of them.
Next up: You'll need to be very careful because in order to get to the switches you need to unseat the battery. And that one is glued in as well - judging from the videos you'll at least bend it a little.
And then, of course, you'll need to desolder the switches from the daughterboards.
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I've also had two consecutive Microsoft mice develop the exact same problem on the left button switch within a few months.
My last Microsoft mouse lasted 11ish years before the rubber on the wheel degraded and the side click on the wheel broke.
I've had a Corsair gaming mouse for a bit over 3 years now without issue.
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@loopback0 said in WTF Bites:
I've also had two consecutive Microsoft mice develop the exact same problem on the left button switch within a few months.
My last Microsoft mouse lasted 11ish years before the rubber on the wheel degraded and the side click on the wheel broke.
I've had a Corsair gaming mouse for a bit over 3 years now without issue.
Try playing more Japanese clickers.
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There are statements from several people of the switches dying after a mere 2 months. Some even had it out of the box. Others were up to 7 replacements with all of them being defective after a while.
I wonder if the switches themselves are bad, or if this is a design issue.
A badly tuned debounce algorithm, and/or using a switching current that's too low, can create the same symptoms. And the effects may not occur until the switch has aged a bit.
This is a wild-ass guess, but it seems more likely to me than a factory producing defective switches for such a long time.
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@Zerosquare I've seen one site speculate that Logitech is using switches for 5V but the controller logic is at 3.3V.
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@Zerosquare I've seen one site speculate that Logitech is using switches for 5V but the controller logic is at 3.3V.
If that's the case I'm safe, since my G502 is wired and thus running on USB's 5V.
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@Zerosquare said in WTF Bites:
I wonder if the switches themselves are bad, or if this is a design issue.
Mice nearly always use Omron switches nowadays, but they manufacture those in Japan as well as in China. Then the manufacturer makes them available in several different lifespan rates and spring rates. Finally there are people claiming that the mouse design might trigger metal fatigue in the springs if the plastic mouse button constantly puts pressure on the switch.
The end result is that there are a ton of variables and it's hard to compare what caused a particular design to fail with a specific switch. I guess it's only when a whole batch of mice fails prematurely that the factory starts looking into any problems in the process or switch procurement...
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And on the base these words remain
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings...My personal headcanon for this poem is that the implied empire was similar to and ended somehow like Charn.
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@djls45 my personal headcannon for this poem is what wiped out the empire
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@Zerosquare I've seen one site speculate that Logitech is using switches for 5V but the controller logic is at 3.3V.
No, that's not it. Voltage is only an issue for switches if it's too high (and 5 V is low enough that even the cheapest junk switch will handle it). However, switches do have a maximum current and a minimum current for proper operation ; the former isn't an issue for mice, but the latter may be.
If that's the case I'm safe, since my G502 is wired and thus running on USB's 5V.
As said above, voltage doesn't matter ; but even USB mouses may run on 3.3 V internally.
Mice nearly always use Omron switches nowadays
Not quite. They do almost all use the same kind of switches, but something that looks like an Omron switch may not be one -- plenty of companies offer parts that are very similar, with various levels of price and quality. Some Chinese manufacturers are actually decent.
(Yes, I did design mice for a company at one point. No, it was not Logitech.)
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And with the G903, replacing the switches is pretty daunting - first, you need new teflon pads because some of the screws are under those pads (which are glued to the mouse). Removing the pad usually destroys at least one of them.
Next up: You'll need to be very careful because in order to get to the switches you need to unseat the battery. And that one is glued in as well - judging from the videos you'll at least bend it a little.
And then, of course, you'll need to desolder the switches from the daughterboards.
The TrackMan series is the complete opposite—repairability how it's supposed to be (, why is NodeBB giving me a 403 for a photo upload?!)
Three philips screws open the case, one more for each daughterboard. You can take it completely apart in two minutes and putting it back together isn't more much complex than some Lego. I haven't actually tried to buy any spare parts but it's all standard stuff, no removed part numbers, not even obscure Chinese shit, the µC is an M68HC908JL3 for which you get complete datasheets. You could even hack the firmware if you liked. No fiddly foil cables or 10mil-pitch shit that only Asian kids on Ritalin can solder. Even the PTFE bearings are stuff that you can just order on AliEx.
90s design …
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I buy cheap ass-mice that usually last a year or two and then move onto the next one. Currently using one that calls itself "Victsing," whatever that is.
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@boomzilla I use cheap ass brand name mice. Previous one was a $15 Kensington, until scroll wheel broke loose. The current one is $15 Razer, though I think I'l replace it soon because the scroll wheel is starting to break loose.
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@Gąska looks like this was one of a two pack I bought in November 2020 for $13.77.
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the scroll wheel is starting to break loose
That tends to happen when the shaft that the wheel is on snaps between the wheel and where the sensor works.
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How the hell are you all so hard on your mice? I play MMOs and am a compulsive camera fiddler, and I get 3 years out of a $60 mouse easily. I think the current one is actually older than that.
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@boomzilla said in WTF Bites:
I buy cheap ass-mice that usually last a year or two
I'd do that, but nobody makes cheap-ass ergonomic mice, and especially not left-handed ones.
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How the hell are you all so hard on your mice
I don't have any such hard on!
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF Bites:
How the hell are you all so hard on your mice
I don't have any such hard on!
Try playing more Japanese clickers.
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@loopback0 said in WTF Bites:
I've also had two consecutive Microsoft mice develop the exact same problem on the left button switch within a few months.
My last Microsoft mouse lasted 11ish years before the rubber on the wheel degraded and the side click on the wheel broke.
I've had a Corsair gaming mouse for a bit over 3 years now without issue.
My Logitech MX518 is 15 years old. No clicking problems, but sometimes the scroll wheel will go up one click after scrolling down a bunch.
My only regret is not buying a red one.
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@Parody you really should have got the red one.
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How the hell are you all so hard on your mice? I play MMOs and am a compulsive camera fiddler, and I get 3 years out of a $60 mouse easily. I think the current one is actually older than that.
I've had 2 madcatz rats, both of them wearing out the thumb button after about 2 years. The switch was fine but the button cover was attached to the body with a narrow strip of plastic, and after that wore out the button wouldn't hit the switch properly anymore
I found that to be rather too short for the price I was paying, so for my latest one I went back to logitech despite liking how the rats lay in my hand.
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@dkf your scale is kinda doxxy
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@PleegWat I have had a MadKatz controller brick a console. Unless you like stuff breaking, avoid as plague.
