Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications
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@MrL said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@idzy said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@MrL said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
What's the next one - 'that's just progress and you are antiquated' or 'this is the price of living in a civilization'?
I don't mean to be rude, but have you ever even encountered a trans person, or been personally inconvenienced by the general consensus of society to respect people's desires to chose their own gender identity?
I'm not talking about whether or not you like the idea, but whether it has actually affected your life at all? If not, why such strong opposition?
Yes, 'it doesn't concern you, so you should agree' is another one, very good.
About as good as everything you’ve offered so far.
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@boomzilla I don't see what's confusing. They both have controversial beliefs that "you" don't like. I have watched you defend nazis though. Trans people deserve at least as much respect as, say, Richard Spencer or milo or all the others "you" fawn over for trolling the libs.
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@Captain said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@boomzilla I don't see what's confusing.
Yes, because the thought came from your head, but your post didn't really explain what you meant by it.
They both have controversial beliefs that "you" don't like. I have watched you defend nazis though. Trans people deserve at least as much respect as, say, Richard Spencer or milo or all the others "you" fawn over for trolling the libs.
So, enough respect to say that we shouldn't sneak up and sucker punch them? Yes, I most definitely agree with you then, fellow nazi defender.
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@boomzilla if I recall correctly, you spent a considerable amount of time telling us that cities and towns should spend hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars to accommodate their security needs. Because you are so open minded.
Accommodating trans people amounts to minding your own business.
Y'all virtue signal about dumb shit.
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@Captain said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@boomzilla if I recall correctly, you spent a considerable amount of time telling us that cities and towns should spend hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars to accommodate their security needs. Because you are so open minded.
You are probably thinking about me advocating that the police safeguard the peace against the fascists who gained a reputation for rioting when someone said something they disagreed with.
Accommodating trans people amounts to minding your own business.
Y'all virtue signal about dumb shit.
I'm not the one calling a gay Jew a Nazi though. I just wanted to understand what you were trying to tell us, which by the way you have continued to avoid doing, beyond vague platitudes. In particular, nothing with respect to the specifics of what's been going on with SE.
You're of course free to imagine that I'm virtue signaling about something here.
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@idzy said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Unfortunately, we can't all have our own nation state, so some things we're just stuck with.
No. For society (which is a major step towards the government) to force people to say false things is nothing short of tyranny. I am all in favor of compassion towards deluded people. Many sane people may wish to humour them, and I sympathize with this. But no one should be forced to humor them.
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@idzy said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Just because someone has a medical degree doesn't make them infallible, or immune to human error.
Or able to remember everything. My doc once recommended I go on a low-dose aspirin plan.
: Um, I'm on Xarelto.
: Oh, that's right. Bad idea!
and we continued with the checkup...
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@Zerosquare said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Knowing how lucky you are with hardware, you'd end up with:
a) bad sectors
b) kernel panics
c) data loss
d) all of the aboveOn one of those minimal machines he created that we all go "why?" when it's described.
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First, fuck you and your high horse.
I have close personal friends who are trans. One I spent hours counseling from the brink of suicide, not from dysphoria but because her family disowned her, society shunned her, and she'd been physically assaulted on multiple occasions. Others I know keep it a total secret, because if they were found out they'd face similar treatment.
They're not snowflakes that are forcing you to treat them specially - they're human fucking beings that are constantly (literally) attacked and treated like garbage. By people like you. But please, tell us how you're the real victim.
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It's not a philosophical debate. The stakes are real human lives that are being destroyed. You don't have to bend over backwards or walk on eggshells. You just have to choose to not be part of the problem.
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@jinpa said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@idzy said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Unfortunately, we can't all have our own nation state, so some things we're just stuck with.
No. For society (which is a major step towards the government) to force people to say false things is nothing short of tyranny. I am all in favor of compassion towards deluded people. Many sane people may wish to humour them, and I sympathize with this. But no one should be forced to humor them.
What’s that tyranny you speak of? Not being able to treat them like shit? Or just not calling them the way you want to call them?
Because you can still do either of that, there is no tyranny that stops you from doing that. Yes, some people may not like it, may call you out on it, and there may be some social repercussions. But that’s just like with anything else that you’re legally allowed but shunned by society. As far as I know in the US can walk around the street and scream “fuck all niggers” all day long. There’s no tyranny stopping you, but it’s not exactly socially acceptable. This is no different.
The tyranny is all in your head.
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@topspin
Go ahead and downvote, you know it’s true.
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@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
“fuck all niggers”
Sounds like a German plot to me.
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@boomzilla and he didn’t go to prison for that.
TYRANNY_NOT_FOUND
.
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@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@boomzilla and he didn’t go to prison for that.
TYRANNY_NOT_FOUND
.Well, he's a cop, so...
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This thread is Rocco levels of deep into the garage domain. And I'm making nine of the sense I guess.
Anywho, trans discussion and flaming seems like it belongs in the garage.
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@dcon said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Zerosquare said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Knowing how lucky you are with hardware, you'd end up with:
a) bad sectors
b) kernel panics
c) data loss
d) all of the aboveOn one of those minimal machines he created that we all go "why?" when it's described.
Paging @dkf to help compose a transliteration...
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@Tsaukpaetra I have no idea what is going on. Happy New Year!
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@dkf said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Tsaukpaetra I have no idea what is going on. Happy New Year!
I figured you were probably the best person to relate how fucked up the human operating system is, how it's composed, etc. in a somewhat reasonable fashion to the forum denizens here.
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@Tsaukpaetra Oh, humans. Amazing machines, yet not made any way that a human designer would ever think of. And somehow still better than that. There is much still to learn.
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@dkf said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
There is much still to learn.
IMO every time I review I'm like "The fuck?!? How is any of this working???!?!? "
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@Tsaukpaetra Feedback loops. Self-regulating feedback loops. Masses of them, all intertwined.
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@dkf said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Tsaukpaetra Feedback loops. Self-regulating feedback loops. Masses of them, all intertwined.
Most of them shared references to other loops, which are cross-referenced back again...
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@error said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
First, fuck you and your high horse.
I have close personal friends who are trans. One I spent hours counseling from the brink of suicide, not from dysphoria but because her family disowned her, society shunned her, and she'd been physically assaulted on multiple occasions. Others I know keep it a total secret, because if they were found out they'd face similar treatment.If someone is on a brink of suicide, because I don't want to call him xir, then he should be treated for mental illness, not telling others how to behave.
They're not snowflakes that are forcing you to treat them specially
And yet, that's exactly what we are talking about - forcing everyone to treat them specially.
they're human fucking beings that are constantly (literally) attacked and treated like garbage. By people like you.
Please show me where anyone in this thread said he is/would treat those people badly. Not to even mention attacking them.
@error said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
You don't have to bend over backwards or walk on eggshells. You just have to choose to not be part of the problem.
I'd say that proponents of 'gender rights' are actually part of the problem:
- There already are places where not bending over backwards and not walking on eggshells in regards to 'gender' is illegal. We are approaching a situation where it will be actually criminal to tell someone to seek psychiatric help.
- Because gender problems are shown as something normal more and more, and because of promoting special treatment for such persons - the problem increases. We already have reports of gender problems spreading through social connections among young people and parents forcing gender treatments on their children.
- Even among those that got all possible support and acceptance (sex change surgery included), levels of depression, anxiety disorders, substance abuse and suicide are not better than average for that group. Which shows pretty conclusively that acceptance and support does not help them.
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The garage and the topic are both
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@MrL said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Please show me where anyone in this thread said he is/would treat those people badly. Not to even mention attacking them.
The post you're quoting, to start with, where I said she had been physically assaulted multiple times. A+ reading comprehension.
She also doesn't use neo-pronouns, but you keep tearing that strawman to shreds.
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@MrL said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Even among those that got all possible support and acceptance (sex change surgery included), levels of depression, anxiety disorders, substance abuse and suicide are not better than average for that group. Which shows pretty conclusively that acceptance and support does not help them.
Really? The people that I personally know are either total pariahs or completely closeted. I'm sure that's not related though.
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@error said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@MrL said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Please show me where anyone in this thread said he is/would treat those people badly. Not to even mention attacking them.
The post you're quoting, to start with, where I said she had been physically assaulted multiple times. A+ reading comprehension.
She also doesn't use neo-pronouns, but you keep tearing that strawman to shreds.That's not what I asked.
@error said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Really? The people that I personally know are either total pariahs or completely closeted. I'm sure that's not related though.
Or, perhaps, people you personally know don't make up all of statistical data.
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@MrL said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@error said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@MrL said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Please show me where anyone in this thread said he is/would treat those people badly. Not to even mention attacking them.
The post you're quoting, to start with, where I said she had been physically assaulted multiple times. A+ reading comprehension.
She also doesn't use neo-pronouns, but you keep tearing that strawman to shreds.That's not what I asked.
@error said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Really? The people that I personally know are either total pariahs or completely closeted. I'm sure that's not related though.
Or, perhaps, people you personally know don't make up all of statistical data.
I'm not denying that this subject is personal to me. I'm not defending a platonic ideal or a class of people. I'm standing up for my own friends, some of whom can't even speak up for fear of outing themselves.
The stereotypical call-me-xir I-identify-as-grass is either a myth or an extreme fringe minority. I guarantee you know some trans people who you do not recognize as such. Most of them are just normal people.
I'm not sure how you even gather a good statistical sample of a group who mostly keeps their biological sex a secret.
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@MrL said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@error said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@MrL said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Please show me where anyone in this thread said he is/would treat those people badly. Not to even mention attacking them.
The post you're quoting, to start with, where I said she had been physically assaulted multiple times. A+ reading comprehension.
She also doesn't use neo-pronouns, but you keep tearing that strawman to shreds.That's not what I asked.
@error said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Really? The people that I personally know are either total pariahs or completely closeted. I'm sure that's not related though.
Or, perhaps, people you personally know don't make up all of statistical data.
But I’m sure the things you quote aren’t statistical outliers at all. Every day millions of trans-agenda parents go out and say “you know what, Jimmy, you’re going to gender reassignment camp now because I’ve read that’s the cool new thing.”
At least some people actually know the people they’re talking about. Few data is better than made up data.
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@error said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
The stereotypical call-me-xir I-identify-as-grass is either a myth or an extreme fringe minority.
But it's my understanding that it's the subject of this thread and the controversy on SE, even if it isn't an issue your friends have.
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@boomzilla said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@error said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
The stereotypical call-me-xir I-identify-as-grass is either a myth or an extreme fringe minority.
But it's my understanding that it's the subject of this thread and the controversy on SE, even if it isn't an issue your friends have.
Yup, threads always stay on topic here on TDWTF. This offshoot specifically started with some "fake woman" bullshit, after which I immediately asked that it move to the garage... but the thread doubled down on shit like that, so here we are.
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@error said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@boomzilla said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@error said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
The stereotypical call-me-xir I-identify-as-grass is either a myth or an extreme fringe minority.
But it's my understanding that it's the subject of this thread and the controversy on SE, even if it isn't an issue your friends have.
Yup, threads always stay on topic here on TDWTF. This offshoot specifically started with some "fake woman" bullshit, after which I immediately asked that it move to the garage... but the thread doubled down on shit like that, so here we are.
Yeah...I get that, but I'm saying that you shouldn't be completely shocked when something of the OP sticks around.
It seems to me that the weird pronouns are more the "non-binary" types' thing but they are about a 99.9% online (or TV) phenomenon for me, so I'm not sure. The whole concept of trans is binary affirming and they (and I do have some IRL experience with trans individuals) seem to use the standard pronouns, so those wouldn't stick out to someone on the internet.
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@error said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
I'm not denying that this subject is personal to me. I'm not defending a platonic ideal or a class of people. I'm standing up for my own friends
Standing up against what? Because no one here says they should be treated badly, let alone assaulted.
some of whom can't even speak up for fear of outing themselves.
Speak up about what? Physical assault is criminal all over the world. Being mean is not, as it shouldn't be.
The stereotypical call-me-xir I-identify-as-grass is either a myth or an extreme fringe minority.
Yes, and extreme fringe minorities should not dictate how society works and how people should behave. Which is the topic here.
I guarantee you know some trans people who you do not recognize as such.
I guarantee I don't.
Most of them are just normal people.
There are many interpretations of what 'normal' means. But sure, why not.
I'm not sure how you even gather a good statistical sample of a group who mostly keeps their biological sex a secret.
From different organizations that try to help them.
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@MrL said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
I guarantee you know some trans people who you do not recognize as such.
I guarantee I don't.
How would you know that?
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@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@MrL said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
I guarantee you know some trans people who you do not recognize as such.
I guarantee I don't.
How would you know that?
He doesn't associate with anyone that hides their true identity, clearly.
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@boomzilla said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
What does that mean?
I'll.. assume this is in good faith.
In this context, it means (to me, and I think to most people, radicals on both sides notwithstanding) to make a good faith effort to use the pronouns a person has asked you to, even if it doesn't necessarily match what they look like. Beyond that, it's more of a grey area, but I think most trans people would appreciate at least that.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@MrL said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
I guarantee you know some trans people who you do not recognize as such.
I guarantee I don't.
How would you know that?
He doesn't associate with anyone that hides their true identity, clearly.
Only genuine individuals, like Clark Kent?
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@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@MrL said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
I guarantee you know some trans people who you do not recognize as such.
I guarantee I don't.
How would you know that?
I have a small circle of friends, we know each other very well.
I don't associate with people outside of it.I work in a small company, which, for whatever reason, is very friendly towards sexual minorities.
So, I know some gay people, but no one from gender-identity-problem zone.
I can't rule out that I met someone like that in passing. But I don't know such people.
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@MrL said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
From different organizations that try to help them.
"We found that 100% of subjects that came to us for help needed help." That sounds unbiased.
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@error said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@MrL said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
From different organizations that try to help them.
"We found that 100% of subjects that came to us for help needed help." That sounds unbiased.
What?
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@error said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
It's not a philosophical debate. The stakes are real human lives that are being destroyed. You don't have to bend over backwards or walk on eggshells. You just have to choose to not be part of the problem.
The problem here is that this zealotry over code of conduct and insisting on the preferred pronouns and such are actually hurting the people with the actual problems. Because it is asking the people who already are not part of the problem to bend over backwards, while reassuring the people who actually are part of the problem that LGBT people are stupid/despicable/etc.
I know there are people who have real issues due to their sexual orientation (nationality, belief etc.). However being too picky about words won't solve them. Condemning the people who disown their queer children will. And showing the queer people as people like anybody else. But not as touchy morons.
The best way to deal with offensive words is to adopt them and start using them factually without the negative connotation, and they'll lose it. Banning them just keeps the euphemism treadmill running and alienates people.
So there are real problems, but moderation is absolute requirement in solving them.
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More news that community is not so important anymore:
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@JBert Wow. I just read through the thread. The "official" moderator response has been downvoted into oblivion and angry comments on it have over 200 net upvotes. Ouch.
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So, what has been the practical effect of these changes on the site’s usefulness, usability, and traffic?
Honestly, I rarely visit StackOverflow anymore as there’s little it offers that I don’t already know at this point.
Has the quality of content degraded? Improved? Is traffic on the decline? On the rise?
What has this done in regards to the StackExchange bottom line? Are they seeing any kind of return for this investment?
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@JBert TIL "delete votes" are a thing.
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@loopback0 OK, this might blow your mind, but did you know that Jeff Atwood worked there?
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@JBert said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
did you know that Jeff Atwood worked there?
I believe he went on to bigger and better things?
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@loopback0 I'm sure he wouldn't be able to stop talking about it.
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@JBert said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@loopback0 OK, this might blow your mind, but did you know that Jeff Atwood worked there?
Not only he did, but I've seen several comments saying "this would never have happened when Jeff was there!".