CloudFlare down. Again.
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After last Monday's shenanigans...
we have more fun today...
Millions of websites went down today after massive Cloudflare outage
The company provides cloud computing services to so many sites and services that the outage literally broke the internet.
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@PJH said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
Millions of websites went down today after massive Cloudflare outage
The company provides cloud computing services to so many sites and services that the outage literally broke the internet.
Due to a Cloudflare outage, we’re getting bad data from our providers, which is showing incorrect crypto prices. Calm down everyone, Bitcoin is not $26.’
Are they sure???
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Honestly, at this point, they should probably start suing companies who are too dumb to configure their infrastructure correctly. I'm pretty sure they'd win the case.
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@dfdub THIS INFRASTRUCTURE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT.
Lawyers = destroyed.
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Cloudflare went down today and vast numbers of websites around the world went gone down with it.
One of these is Down Detector, which tracks outages, meaning people couldn’t even see if the website they wanted to visit is working properly.
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@anonymous234 That clause would get smacked down in any state court. Every state has laws regarding liability for merchantibility and fitness for purpose.
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@anonymous234 said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
THIS INFRASTRUCTURE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT.
Just make sure that you're not hosting your disclaimer on something cloudflare...
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@Captain said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@anonymous234 That clause would get smacked down in any state court. Every state has laws regarding liability for merchantibility and fitness for purpose.
It's a miracle, then, that after three decades, FSF still gets away with putting that clause in the license of every software they release to this day. Was there really not a single lawsuit against them in all these years? Even bullshit ones?
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@Gąska
I'm assuming the fact that they don't have a business relationship with anyone who uses their software is not completely irrelevant. It's hard to argue that you've been wronged when you copied something off the internet and didn't check it before using it.And it's not illegal to write a contract with unenforceable clauses in it.
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@dfdub yes, but AFAIK giving things for free, no strings attached, doesn't always clear you off any and all liability. I'm pretty sure that in USA, if you give someone broken bicycle for free, and don't say it's broken, and they hurt themselves riding it, they can sue you for damages despite no business relationship.
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@Gąska
Yeah, liability under US law is sometimes weird and counterintuitive.But AFAIK, every jurisdiction on this planet has accepted the fact that there's no such thing as bug-free software. I'm pretty sure you'd have to at least prove gross negligence if you don't want to even make it to court. And that's unlikely if the programmer was unaware you were even using the software for your specific purpose in the first place.
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@dfdub said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
AFAIK, every jurisdiction on this planet has accepted the fact that there's no such thing as bug-free software.
And to be honest, I hate it. When a civil engineer fucks up building construction, he's liable for everything that goes wrong due to it. Software developers should be too, to some extent.
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@Gąska I would also sometimes have loved to have regulations I could have shown to my boss to convince him to do the right thing. The problem is that "to some extent" is hard to define legally. And we really don't want every software company to have a team of lawyers as big as Oracle's, do we?
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@dfdub said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
The problem is that "to some extent" is hard to define legally.
No, I didn't mean that the law should literally say "to some extent". I'm saying there should be very strict and unambiguous law what the responsibilities of software developer are and what he gets for violating them, but haven't fully figured out yet what these should be exactly.
And we really don't want every software company to have a team of lawyers as big as Oracle's, do we?
Construction laws are yuuuuuuuge, and yet most building contractors don't need to hire whole departments of lawyers. I think it can be done in software world too.
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@Gąska said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@Captain said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@anonymous234 That clause would get smacked down in any state court. Every state has laws regarding liability for merchantibility and fitness for purpose.
It's a miracle, then, that after three decades, FSF still gets away with putting that clause in the license of every software they release to this day. Was there really not a single lawsuit against them in all these years? Even bullshit ones?
Why are you limiting that to the FSF? Every software license I ever remember looking at contains that clause or a very similar one.
And I fully agree with your sentiment further downthread about those clauses and responsibility (or entire lack thereof) of developers!
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@remi said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@Gąska said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@Captain said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@anonymous234 That clause would get smacked down in any state court. Every state has laws regarding liability for merchantibility and fitness for purpose.
It's a miracle, then, that after three decades, FSF still gets away with putting that clause in the license of every software they release to this day. Was there really not a single lawsuit against them in all these years? Even bullshit ones?
Why are you limiting that to the FSF? Every software license I ever remember looking at contains that clause or a very similar one.
Because FSF is the only one that I know of that has their software with such license terms end up being used in big enterprise projects. I know what home user EULAs look like, but I don't know what enterprise EULAs look like, and I'd rather not assume something that might turn out to be very wrong. Home users are much less likely to sue than big enterprises.
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@Gąska said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@remi said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@Gąska said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@Captain said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@anonymous234 That clause would get smacked down in any state court. Every state has laws regarding liability for merchantibility and fitness for purpose.
It's a miracle, then, that after three decades, FSF still gets away with putting that clause in the license of every software they release to this day. Was there really not a single lawsuit against them in all these years? Even bullshit ones?
Why are you limiting that to the FSF? Every software license I ever remember looking at contains that clause or a very similar one.
Because FSF is the only one that I know of that has their software with such license terms end up being used in big enterprise projects. I know what home user EULAs look like, but I don't know what enterprise EULAs look like, and I'd rather not assume something that might turn out to be very wrong. Home users are much less likely to sue than big enterprises.
Isn't the point that if you want SLAs you pay for them to one of the providers, and thus get some sort of entity to blame for all the shit that breaks?
That blurb is the freebie SLA. If you're paying and still getting that SLA, you need some better people doing the purchases.
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@Gąska said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
Software developers should be too, to some extent.
Careful. People may find out that 90% of the industry is smoke, mirrors and left-pad.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
smoke
GitHub - jyoungblood/smoke.js: framework-agnostic styled alert system for javascript
framework-agnostic styled alert system for javascript - jyoungblood/smoke.js
@Applied-Mediocrity said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
mirrors
GitHub - MagicMirrorOrg/MagicMirror: MagicMirror² is an open source modular smart mirror platform. With a growing list of installable modules, the MagicMirror² allows you to convert your hallway or...
MagicMirror² is an open source modular smart mirror platform. With a growing list of installable modules, the MagicMirror² allows you to convert your hallway or bathroom mirror into your personal a...
@Applied-Mediocrity said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
and left-pad
padding srsbsns
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@Gąska said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
No, I didn't mean that the law should literally say "to some extent".
I know. But I'm also pretty sure the end result of regulating software development would be a lot of unnecessary bureaucratic, standardized processes that suck the life out of you instead of an actual improvement. I don't know about you, but this is the opposite of what I want.
Standardized forms and certifications won't fix our broken culture. And unfortunately, there's no easy way to change that culture.
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@dfdub said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@Gąska said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
No, I didn't mean that the law should literally say "to some extent".
I know. But I'm also pretty sure the end result of regulating software development would be a lot of unnecessary bureaucratic, standardized processes that suck the life out of you instead of an actual improvement. I don't know about you, but this is the opposite of what I want.
This is how things look like in food processing and many other industries, and honestly, I prefer it this way. Sure, it's not ideal - but the wild west has to end eventually. Because the number of Boeings 737 MAX is only going to increase.
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@Gąska said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@dfdub said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@Gąska said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
No, I didn't mean that the law should literally say "to some extent".
I know. But I'm also pretty sure the end result of regulating software development would be a lot of unnecessary bureaucratic, standardized processes that suck the life out of you instead of an actual improvement. I don't know about you, but this is the opposite of what I want.
This is how things look like in food processing and many other industries,
I know, I've experienced that, and that's exactly why I'm worried. Go to your local hospital and ask the nurses about their documentation procedures - it's a nightmare. Now imagine having to do that even if your software will never be able to hurt a human being.
Sure, it's not ideal - but the wild west has to end eventually.
We definitely agree on that.
Because the number of Boeings 737 MAX is only going to increase.
Okay, now we're talking about something different. I'm absolutely not against regulations for safety-critical software (in cars etc.), but to my knowledge, regulations already exist in those areas. They may be inadequate, but that doesn't mean we suddenly need to have regulation for all software development.
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@dfdub if Tesla hasn't been already closed up for gross violation of safety standards by their "auto" "pilot", it means the current laws aren't enough.
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@Gąska If that's what you're talking about, we're in violent agreement.
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@Gąska said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@remi said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@Gąska said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@Captain said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@anonymous234 That clause would get smacked down in any state court. Every state has laws regarding liability for merchantibility and fitness for purpose.
It's a miracle, then, that after three decades, FSF still gets away with putting that clause in the license of every software they release to this day. Was there really not a single lawsuit against them in all these years? Even bullshit ones?
Why are you limiting that to the FSF? Every software license I ever remember looking at contains that clause or a very similar one.
Because FSF is the only one that I know of that has their software with such license terms end up being used in big enterprise projects. I know what home user EULAs look like, but I don't know what enterprise EULAs look like, and I'd rather not assume something that might turn out to be very wrong. Home users are much less likely to sue than big enterprises.
Fair enough. I'm pretty sure that I saw similar terms in professional software that we use, however it's hard for me to check since those I use right now don't have the EULA accessible directly from their GUI, because you can't get them without going through a sales contract that will contain all relevant terms and that goes to finance, legal etc. and is rarely seen by the actual end user (I did see some because I was involved in the buying process).
OTOH, one piece of software that I can check is VS2017 Professional. The Help menu redirects to this page (how long before the link breaks...?) which is an embedded view of a .docx (!!).
Very interestingly (I think), the part about the trial version (page 1) has the usual "fuck off" clause:
DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY. THE TRIAL EDITION IS LICENSED “AS-IS.” YOU BEAR THE RISK OF USING IT. MICROSOFT GIVES NO EXPRESS WARRANTIES, GUARANTEES OR CONDITIONS. TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED UNDER YOUR LOCAL LAWS, MICROSOFT EXCLUDES THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NON-INFRINGEMENT.
But this is only for the trial version, and for the full version it seems that the relevant bits are towards the end:
LIMITED WARRANTY. If you follow the instructions, the software will perform substantially as described in the Microsoft materials that you receive in or with the software.
[and the rest builds on that, basically]
So it would seem that, at least for the professional edition, Microsoft does actually guarantees you that the software will work (for some lawyerese definition of "work" due to nice weasel words like "substantially", of course), and you could sue them for e.g. a bug.
Interesting.
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Cloudflare isn't the entire internet.
A BGP leak affects the entire internet.
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@Gąska said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
AFAIK giving things for free, no strings attached, doesn't always clear you off any and all liability
True, but the claim is most likely to succeed against the person who said that the software is suitable for your particular purpose, who is often also the person who'd otherwise be bringing the claim. You can get people to certify suitability for particular uses, but whether commercial or not you had better be prepared to pay quite a bit for the privilege as that money's going to be spent at least in part on liability insurance.
Otherwise, you'd need to show gross negligence (or actual malice) and that's much more difficult.
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@ben_lubar said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
Cloudflare isn't the entire internet.
A BGP leak affects the entire internet.
To explain this further, there's a very good reason this primarily affected Verizon customers.
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@ben_lubar said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
A BGP leak affects the entire internet.
One time a BGP leak flooded my basement. It was pretty rough but I don't think it affected the internet.
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@Gąska said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
Software developers should be too, to some extent.
Nah. Instead, make their managers legally responsible. Because the root cause of a developer fucking up is very often bad management (by hiring/not firing incompetent people, or not allowing developers to do their job properly).
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@Gąska said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
I'm saying there should be very strict and unambiguous law
Quixotic ideas thread is
.
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@Gąska said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@dfdub said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
" And we really don't want every software company to have a team of lawyers as big as Oracle's, do we?"Construction laws are yuuuuuuuge, and yet most building contractors don't need to hire whole departments of lawyers. I think it can be done in software world too.
You'd have to have a lot of insurance to write code. And get permits for everything, too. I can think of few worse things happening in the software world.
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@levicki said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
In my country they first make a building and then ask for permits while in the meantime they fuck up the urbanistic plan by building taller buildings and closer to the street than the rest, dig out half the sidewalk and patch it poorly, or even dump excess cement from the cement mixer into sewer causing city government to have to stop the traffic in one of the busiest streets for two days (and nights, no sleeping for you while they work), during which they open up the entire segment of the street on both sides to the tune of 50 meters to replace now solidly cemented sewage pipes.
Poland isn't the Florida of Europe. It's the Texas of Europe, with all those cowboy( builder)s…
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@dkf said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@levicki said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
In my country they first make a building and then ask for permits while in the meantime they fuck up the urbanistic plan by building taller buildings and closer to the street than the rest, dig out half the sidewalk and patch it poorly, or even dump excess cement from the cement mixer into sewer causing city government to have to stop the traffic in one of the busiest streets for two days (and nights, no sleeping for you while they work), during which they open up the entire segment of the street on both sides to the tune of 50 meters to replace now solidly cemented sewage pipes.
Poland isn't the Florida of Europe. It's the Texas of Europe, with all those cowboy( builder)s…
To be fair, @levicki doesn't live in Poland. Your description is spot-on, though.
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@Gąska said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
GitHub - MagicMirrorOrg/MagicMirror: MagicMirror² is an open source modular smart mirror platform. With a growing list of installable modules, the MagicMirror² allows you to convert your hallway or...
MagicMirror² is an open source modular smart mirror platform. With a growing list of installable modules, the MagicMirror² allows you to convert your hallway or bathroom mirror into your personal a...
Nope thread is
.
Looking in the mirror is bad enough without having to worry about privacy and data security.
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@HardwareGeek said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
Looking in the mirror is bad enough without having to worry about privacy and data security.
Filed under: In 2019 the mirror looks into you
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@Gąska said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@dfdub said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
AFAIK, every jurisdiction on this planet has accepted the fact that there's no such thing as bug-free software.
And to be honest, I hate it. When a civil engineer fucks up building construction, he's liable for everything that goes wrong due to it. Software developers should be too, to some extent.
Actually... they don't seem to.
Honestly, I've been hearing that statement for my whole career, except I also have an interest in the construction industry and see so much crap all the time (that doesn't kill anyone, so sure, but unsafe buildings). Since that story came out I've been bringing it up as a good counter-example of how our perception of engineering is changing too.
Of course, maybe I will be proven wrong if some combination of the engineering company that made the design, the other engineering company that was supposed to verify the math, the contractor that saw the cracks, or even the DOT inspector that saw the cracks that morning and ignored them, are prosecuted. And then maybe my faith in humanity will be partially restored...
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@quijibo said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
my faith in humanity will be partially restored...
I guarantee you this will never happen...
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And certainly not when reading WTDWTF.
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Clearly TRWTF is everyone not using CloudFlare Always Online™. Nothing to see here, move along
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@levicki said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
@boomzilla said in CloudFlare down. Again.:
You'd have to have a lot of insurance to write code. And get permits for everything, too. I can think of few worse things happening in the software world.
Wait, you think construction companies have those things?
Yes.
In my country...
I'm not even certain which one that is, but they definitely do in my country.
Cloudflare hits the deck, websites sink from sight after the internet springs yet another BGP leak
