Nope, you city it
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Another
, and important because it's politically sensitive - it's actually a prime Garage material. I mean, seriously, there is a freaking proper war being fought over this!@Gąska said in Nope, you city it:
There's more differences between German German and Austrian German than between Russian and Ukrainian.
No, that is definitely not true. Depending of what you mean, it's either
- official version of the language, in which case the differences across DACH are quite small and nowhere near the level of the difference between Ukrainian and Russian
- generally spoken dialect, in which case Austria and significant part of Germany have the same language (it's called Bavarian dialect); but it's still closer to the High German than Plattdeutsch (which is also spoken, albeit rarely nowadays, only in Germany)
Basically, lots of Ukrainians actually speak some mix of Ukrainian an Russian, depending on their background, locality and education they received (in Russian language, especially before 1991). It's changing with younger generation, and of course the... unstable... political situation lately.
Source: many Ukrainians I've worked with.
Also, I am a little invested in this, with my own nation/language being also sometimes declared as "artificial construct of political conspiracy" (the main difference being that such historical revisionism is nowadays not acceptable anywhere in Europe, but I've just recently seen a book from some USA historian that literarily wrote that).
Edit: fixed "official version of the language", because "official language" is kinda misleading, as seen below.
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@Kamil-Podlesak said in Nope, you city it:
@Gąska said in Nope, you city it:
Germans themselves have nine different cultures. They're a federal country like USA.
There are 16 federal states. And saying that each state is one culture is... well... not universally accepted (for example, some Badensers are still salty about the Württemberg stuff).@topspin said in Nope, you city it:
@Kamil-Podlesak he didn't say that's how he defined the different cultures, though.
I have no idea where the number comes from, but there's surely some reasonable definition that will get you that outcome.I ALREADY SAID I MESSED UP GODDAMMIT
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@Gąska you could still be right depending on the metric.
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@topspin except I couldn't because there's no way to meaningfully divide Germany in nein.
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@Gąska said in Nope, you city it:
@topspin except I couldn't because there's no way to meaningfully divide Germany in nein.
</thread>It's not getting better than this.
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@Gąska said in Nope, you city it:
@Kamil-Podlesak said in Nope, you city it:
@Gąska said in Nope, you city it:
Germans themselves have nine different cultures. They're a federal country like USA.
There are 16 federal states. And saying that each state is one culture is... well... not universally accepted (for example, some Badensers are still salty about the Württemberg stuff).@topspin said in Nope, you city it:
@Kamil-Podlesak he didn't say that's how he defined the different cultures, though.
I have no idea where the number comes from, but there's surely some reasonable definition that will get you that outcome.I ALREADY SAID I MESSED UP GODDAMMIT
Yeah, sorry about it, I have read the whole thread in one go and missed that.
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@Kamil-Podlesak said in Nope, you city it:
Also, I am a little invested in this, with my own nation/language being also sometimes declared as "artificial construct of political conspiracy" (the main difference being that such historical revisionism is nowadays not acceptable anywhere in Europe, but I've just recently seen a book from some USA historian that literarily wrote that).
I'll allow that... provided they also claim the same about the USA. There is a good sense in which all nations and languages are artificial constructs, with all claims of unity founded principally on belief.
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@dkf said in Nope, you city it:
@Kamil-Podlesak said in Nope, you city it:
Also, I am a little invested in this, with my own nation/language being also sometimes declared as "artificial construct of political conspiracy" (the main difference being that such historical revisionism is nowadays not acceptable anywhere in Europe, but I've just recently seen a book from some USA historian that literarily wrote that).
I'll allow that... provided they also claim the same about the USA. There is a good sense in which all nations and languages are artificial constructs, with all claims of unity founded principally on belief.
It's even worse: it would be pretty much justified, but one century earlier.
So the USA equivalent is a claim that the "American nation" was created by Northern Elites in 1860s.Of course, I am pretty sure there are people claiming that, so... fair game, I guess.
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@Gąska said in Nope, you city it:
Let's use another example, since we're on the topic of Austrians. What was the most important city in France in 1942? Depending on which group of people you're going to call "the government," the seat of government was either London or Vichy. That doesn't matter, because the answer is Paris.
Vichy France's constitution said the capital is Paris.
Well he said "seat of government", so Vichy is probably right (and London only makes sense if talking about where the government was, rather than what the official capital was). If going by "capitals", you're right that both sides never claimed anything but Paris ever was theirs, although the France Libre did (semi?)officially call Algiers their "provisional" capital and @GuyWhoKilledBear juuuuuust avoided another
about that by saying 1942, since that happened in 1943.the capital city is an ancient concept that was implemented by every European monarchy after Charlemagne (and Austria was created after Charlemagne).
This time it'll be your turn to get a
, as the notion of capital wasn't that clear until the late middle-ages. There was usually one main "palace" (or castle, fortress or whatever) where the ruler was expected to be (or around it), but it wasn't necessarily a city (though of course the seat of power attracts people). For small "states" that was the only one. But for bigger ones, the ruler would be essentially nomadic and move between palaces -- as Charlemagne did. Almost by definition of a "state" at the time, the capital was where the ruler was, not a specific location.Capitals actually started to crystallise to a single place in those countries due to the need to stop moving archives around. Basically, the modern notion of capital is a by-product of the invention of red tape.
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@remi said in Nope, you city it:
the capital city is an ancient concept that was implemented by every European monarchy after Charlemagne (and Austria was created after Charlemagne).
This time it'll be your turn to get a
, as the notion of capital wasn't that clear until the late middle-ages. There was usually one main "palace" (or castle, fortress or whatever) where the ruler was expected to be (or around it), but it wasn't necessarily a city (though of course the seat of power attracts people). For small "states" that was the only one. But for bigger ones, the ruler would be essentially nomadic and move between palaces -- as Charlemagne did. Almost by definition of a "state" at the time, the capital was where the ruler was, not a specific location.One note: the "Austria" at that time, was just a "duchy" and not a big one either. Which is why there was never any serious contestants for Vienna (which was unusually big city relative to the country itself). We might even say that Vienna is the core around which the country has been built.
Capitals actually started to crystallise to a single place in those countries due to the need to stop moving archives around. Basically, the modern notion of capital is a by-product of the invention of red tape.
This. I would add one important detail explaining why the ruler had to move around: because he had a large court full of aristocrats and nobles and whenever they stayed in one place, they run out of food quite quickly. And there was no technology available to preserve the food, or transport it quickly enough to avoid spoiling. Of course, by "food" we mean "meat", because that's what the warrior caste eat! So they had to move on and keep the dirty peasants (and clerics) with their storable food behind.
This eventually changed when the logistics capabilities improved and also the nobility got less "warrior caste" and more "spoiled rich" (so the meat could be replaced by some plant-based food, as long as it was fancy enough).
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@Kamil-Podlesak said in Nope, you city it:
This. I would add one important detail explaining why the ruler had to move around: because he had a large court full of aristocrats and nobles and whenever they stayed in one place, they run out of food quite quickly.
That's true, though another factor was also that delegation of power was not working very well (see e.g. how Charlemagne's comites started as local governors appointed by a higher authority, but very quickly devolved into independent powers as soon as the higher power went somewhere else). So in larger states, the ruler had to move around to keep his power. If he didn't, his state would very soon turn into the small part where he was and nothing more. Which is kind of what I was saying with "by definition a state was where the ruler was."
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Also, and relevant (???) to this whole thread:
What is the largest European city that does not have a namesake (either directly, or "New X" or similar) in the US / Canada?
On top of my head I can find a 250k one, but that's a new town (60's). Excluding those... the few random names I tried force me to go pretty low before Google Maps can't find a match.
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@remi said in Nope, you city it:
Also, and relevant (???) to this whole thread:
What is the largest European city that does not have a namesake (either directly, or "New X" or similar) in the US / Canada?
On top of my head I can find a 250k one, but that's a new town (60's). Excluding those... the few random names I tried force me to go pretty low before Google Maps can't find a match.
How do you search? I cannot find neither Bratislava/Pressburg/Pozson nor Krakow nor helsinki; all of them are way over 250k. But that's a moot point, because I cannot find any Bucharest. Maybe some fancy spelling is needed?
Even better: Kiev; there are not that many cities over 3M in Europe. But I have absolutely no idea what kind of spelling could the corresponding American place possibly use.
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@Kamil-Podlesak said in Nope, you city it:
Kiev
is a small village in Tachov okres in the West of Czechia, some 5 km from the Bavarian border.
Btw, the correct spelling is Kyjov:
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@BernieTheBernie said in Nope, you city it:
Kiev
is a small village in Tachov okres in the West of Czechia, some 5 km from the Bavarian border.
Ok sure, but what about Knib?
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@GOG said in Nope, you city it:
@Gąska You don't get out on the internet much?
You can
write FORTRANbe a tankie in any language.
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@Kamil-Podlesak said in Nope, you city it:
How do you search?
On Google Maps with city names that I'm familiar with, i.e. mostly close to me. I didn't make any exhaustive search, just a quick try with 5-10 names of medium-size cities that popped in my mind.
I cannot find neither Bratislava/Pressburg/Pozson nor Krakow nor helsinki; all of them are way over 250k.
I'll be honest, I don't even know Pressburg/Pozson in Europe. Tying-in to the rest of the thread above, I probably now the name of at most a couple of cities in most eastern European countries (excepted in very large ones such as Poland). I didn't think of trying the other two.
But that's a moot point, because I cannot find any Bucharest. Maybe some fancy spelling is needed?
Even better: Kiev; there are not that many cities over 3M in Europe. But I have absolutely idea what kind of spelling Could the corresponding American place possibly use.
It's interesting because it shows (if there ever was a doubt about it...) how western European the US are. I did not think of big eastern European cities, and clearly not enough Americans are from there to have named US places from those.
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@remi said in Nope, you city it:
I cannot find neither Bratislava/Pressburg/Pozson nor Krakow nor helsinki; all of them are way over 250k.
I'll be honest, I don't even know Pressburg/Pozson in Europe.
It's all the same city, just different names for Bratislava.
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@BernieTheBernie said in Nope, you city it:
@Kamil-Podlesak said in Nope, you city it:
Kiev
is a small village in Tachov okres in the West of Czechia, some 5 km from the Bavarian border.
Btw, the correct spelling is Kyjov:
there are at least seven settlements of that name in Czechia alone, officially (and cursory search actually find some unofficial ones).Btw the biggest one is a town called Gaya in Latin/German and the coat of arms has a hand holding big stick so.... we are getting into the "
FreundianFunny town names" thread I guessAnyway, it has "o" instead of "i" or "e". But apparently Kiou, Kiow, Kiew, Kiovia were all used as English spelling. TIL
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@topspin said in Nope, you city it:
It's all the same city, just different names for Bratislava.
Well if you needed proof that even Western Europeans can be totally ignorant about Europe's geography, you have it.(to my defence I might say that I never claimed to be familiar with central/eastern Europe, but that's not much of an excuse)
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@remi said in Nope, you city it:
@topspin said in Nope, you city it:
It's all the same city, just different names for Bratislava.
Well if you needed proof that even Western Europeans can be totally ignorant about Europe's geography, you have it.Knowing all the names for places gets seriously annoying. Long run, it's largely best to just stick to the name that the locals use. (English is terrible for this, but very much not the only sinner. Check the flight numbers when changing planes, not the place names!)
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@dkf said in Nope, you city it:
Long run, it's largely best to just stick to the name that the locals use.
Assuming there is a single such name.
Stage whisper: Derry/Londonderry.
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@dkf I always have trouble linking Cologne with Köln. It's not just that it's got an extra syllable (Dutch does that too for the same name), but that common pronunciations put the stress on the second vowel, which doesn't exist in the original. And of course it looks completely different written down.
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@PleegWat said in Nope, you city it:
@dkf I always have trouble linking Cologne with Köln. It's not just that it's got an extra syllable (Dutch does that too for the same name), but that common pronunciations put the stress on the second vowel, which doesn't exist in the original. And of course it looks completely different written down.
What about
AachenAix-la-Chapelle? Try a little mouse-hovering over the language variants. Spanish/Polish/Italian variant is noteworthy, but I believe the Cáchy one is an indisputable winner.
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@Kamil-Podlesak I was seriously puzzled by “Mailand” the first time I saw it. I guess it has most of the right letters in it in the right order…
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@Kamil-Podlesak said in Nope, you city it:
@PleegWat said in Nope, you city it:
@dkf I always have trouble linking Cologne with Köln. It's not just that it's got an extra syllable (Dutch does that too for the same name), but that common pronunciations put the stress on the second vowel, which doesn't exist in the original. And of course it looks completely different written down.
What about
AachenAix-la-Chapelle? Try a little mouse-hovering over the language variants. Spanish/Polish/Italian variant is noteworthy, but I believe the Cáchy one is an indisputable winner.Well, when you're on the motorway in
trying to find your way towards Germany, that's some fun. Also with Liege/Luik/Lüttich.
Nowadays your GPS will tell you the way, but long ago ...
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@BernieTheBernie said in Nope, you city it:
@Kamil-Podlesak said in Nope, you city it:
@PleegWat said in Nope, you city it:
@dkf I always have trouble linking Cologne with Köln. It's not just that it's got an extra syllable (Dutch does that too for the same name), but that common pronunciations put the stress on the second vowel, which doesn't exist in the original. And of course it looks completely different written down.
What about
AachenAix-la-Chapelle? Try a little mouse-hovering over the language variants. Spanish/Polish/Italian variant is noteworthy, but I believe the Cáchy one is an indisputable winner.Well, when you're on the motorway in
trying to find your way towards Germany, that's some fun. Also with Liege/Luik/Lüttich.
Nowadays your GPS will tell you the way, but long ago ...Well, Belgium is not that big. Just go in any direction and when you reach the sea, turn around :-)
At least, that's how I drive without GPS.
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@remi said in Nope, you city it:
@topspin said in Nope, you city it:
It's all the same city, just different names for Bratislava.
Well if you needed proof that even Western Europeans can be totally ignorant about Europe's geography, you have it.(to my defence I might say that I never claimed to be familiar with central/eastern Europe, but that's not much of an excuse)
I also had no clue what the heck everyone was talking about with this "Charlemagne" nonsense.
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@remi said in Nope, you city it:
It's interesting because it shows (if there ever was a doubt about it...) how western European the US are. I did not think of big eastern European cities, and clearly not enough Americans are from there to have named US places from those.
Also, immigrants tend to name places they settle after places they have fond memories, which rules out most of Eastern Europe.
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@PleegWat said in Nope, you city it:
I always have trouble linking Cologne with Köln.
That's one I don't have trouble with. I've been there, and I generally tend to use the German name.
@Kamil-Podlesak said in Nope, you city it:
What about
AachenAix-la-Chapelle?I've been there, too, but I never (or at least not that I can recall) associated those names together. I definitely think of that as Aachen or Bad Aachen.
Wikipedia said:
As a spa city, Aachen has the right to name itself Bad Aachen, but chooses not to, so it remains on the top of alphabetical lists.
TIL. I thought that was it's proper name.
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@BernieTheBernie said in Nope, you city it:
Nowadays your GPS will tell you the way, but long ago ...
Someone riding shotgun who has a map and is both willing and capable to read it.
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@topspin said in Nope, you city it:
@remi said in Nope, you city it:
@topspin said in Nope, you city it:
It's all the same city, just different names for Bratislava.
Well if you needed proof that even Western Europeans can be totally ignorant about Europe's geography, you have it.(to my defence I might say that I never claimed to be familiar with central/eastern Europe, but that's not much of an excuse)
I also had no clue what the heck everyone was talking about with this "Charlemagne" nonsense.
It isn't easy to find a Vietnamese man named "Charlie Main." They're all named Nguyen, or Tran, or …
To be fair it's closer to his "official" name of Carolus Magnus than the German version.
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@PleegWat said in Nope, you city it:
@BernieTheBernie said in Nope, you city it:
Nowadays your GPS will tell you the way, but long ago ...
Someone riding shotgun who has a map and is both willing and capable to read it.
I can not only read the map, I can fold it up properly when finished. 
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@HardwareGeek Frankly, an even better way to drive long distance is if you have two such persons who also both have a drivers license, so you can switch seats every 2-3 hours.
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@HardwareGeek said in Nope, you city it:
I can fold it up properly when finished.
Are you available for the position of head of government? Because our candidate here wasn't even able to fold a ballot paper, so that'd be a big step ahead.
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@topspin said in Nope, you city it:
Are you available for the position of head of government?
Sure. Whenever I'm asked what my ideal job would be, I've always answered, "God-Emperor of Earth."
What? That's not what you had in mind? Oh, in that case, it depends. Would I have to learn Seltsame Mondsprache?
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@remi said in Nope, you city it:
What is the largest European city that does not have a namesake (either directly, or "New X" or similar) in the US / Canada?
I’d say Istanbul. I arrive at this via the Wikipedia page for Istanbul (disambiguation) which doesn’t link to pages for any other Istanbuls. Even if you don’t consider it to be entirely in Europe, it looks like about half the city is on the European side of the Bosporus. Though I can’t find how the population is split between the two sides, the whole city has 15 million people, so if half lives on each side it’s still a very big European city.
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@HardwareGeek said in Nope, you city it:
@remi said in Nope, you city it:
It's interesting because it shows (if there ever was a doubt about it...) how western European the US are. I did not think of big eastern European cities, and clearly not enough Americans are from there to have named US places from those.
Also, immigrants tend to name places they settle after places they have fond memories, which rules out most of Eastern Europe.
There are several Moscows in USA. Although they might be named after the Moscow in Scotland.
There are also at least five Belgrades (in USA, none in Scotland AFAIK).
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: Which of the four?
