Neighbor WTF
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My mom has been at war with her neighbor for some time now. He is taking care of his even more elderly "mother", and being old I'm not surprised that she experiences incontinence. The problem arises when he decides to put the soiled bedsheets/clothes into a hamper of some sort and soaks it in some chemical, most likely chlorine.
A few weeks back there was an incident where the old woman that the neighbor is taking care of escaped in the middle of the night and started knocking on doors asking for help. My mom called the coos, but by the time they arrived, he has brought her back into the house and claimed that there is no issue.
We asked the building management for a copy of the video from the time, but unsurprisingly they refused.
We had no choice but to install our own cameras. When the building management found out, they told us we can't have them. I asked if they can show me something on writing saying we can't have the cameras. They said no. At this point I informed them that we are keeping the cameras and any attempts to remove them will be considered theft and reported to the police.
Today, at noon, the super and his son took down the cameras. We called the cops, and even though we have a video of the perpetrators who stole our cameras they are refusing to as much as take a report. At the minimum I need a report so I can claim the cameras under insurance.
Happy to provide more details.
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@dangeRuss said in Neighbor WTF:
The problem arises when he decides to put the soiled bedsheets/clothes into a hamper of some sort and soaks it in some chemical, most likely chlorine.
Assuming the problem is odour here? Bleach + urine (or most organic matter) makes chloramines which is the 'pool' smell. Chloramines are pretty nasty but you can smell them at really low concentrations, it's likely to be more of a nuisance than an actual serious health hazard here. Only thing would be to politely request he doesn't I guess.
I'm not sure what you can do about any of the rest as I'm not familiar with the US and the various services/authorities.
Here you can report a crime and get a number over the phone that you can give to the insurance company.
Police ombudsman, or other oversight body, to raise a complaint about your treatment?Is there any local authority that deals with protection for older people? Here it would be the local council if you need to report problems with the treatment of an older person.
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@Cursorkeys said in Neighbor WTF:
Assuming the problem is odour here? Bleach + urine (or most organic matter) makes chloramines which is the 'pool' smell. Chloramines are pretty nasty but you can smell them at really low concentrations, it's likely to be more of a nuisance than an actual serious health hazard here. Only thing would be to politely request he doesn't I guess.
Chlorine by itself thought can be pretty nasty and cause all sorts of health issues. Personally, whenever I stop by there, I get an allergic reaction, even if I don't really smell a strong smell of chlorine.
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@dangeRuss said in Neighbor WTF:
We called the cops, and even though we have a video of the perpetrators who stole our cameras they are refusing to as much as take a report.
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@Cursorkeys said in Neighbor WTF:
Is there any local authority that deals with protection for older people? Here it would be the local council if you need to report problems with the treatment of an older person.
In the U.S. it's usually called Adult Protective Services.
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@dangeRuss said in Neighbor WTF:
@Cursorkeys said in Neighbor WTF:
Assuming the problem is odour here? Bleach + urine (or most organic matter) makes chloramines which is the 'pool' smell. Chloramines are pretty nasty but you can smell them at really low concentrations, it's likely to be more of a nuisance than an actual serious health hazard here. Only thing would be to politely request he doesn't I guess.
Chlorine by itself thought can be pretty nasty and cause all sorts of health issues. Personally, whenever I stop by there, I get an allergic reaction, even if I don't really smell a strong smell of chlorine.
When you say chlorine do you mean bleach?
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@dangeRuss said in Neighbor WTF:
My mom has been at war with her neighbor for some time now. He is taking care of his even more elderly "mother", and being old I'm not surprised that she experiences incontinence. The problem arises when he decides to put the soiled bedsheets/clothes into a hamper of some sort and soaks it in some chemical, most likely chlorine.
A few weeks back there was an incident where the old woman that the neighbor is taking care of escaped in the middle of the night and started knocking on doors asking for help. My mom called the coos, but by the time they arrived, he has brought her back into the house and claimed that there is no issue.
We asked the building management for a copy of the video from the time, but unsurprisingly they refused.
We had no choice but to install our own cameras. When the building management found out, they told us we can't have them.
Well, that escalated quickly.
No offense, but was that really necessary? I mean, I can understand that cops think it's not their job to take care of an old lady when the neighbors know full well where she belongs and all they have to do is ring an her relative's door and ask them to take her back in. Also that they think building management is the party to decide who can put cameras where, outside of the condos.What should the cameras achieve anyway, prove that a senile lady has been knocking on your door at night? It's not like that's an offense unless it's unacceptably frequent and really badly disturbing, is it? It's something that's part of life like a screaming baby, usually you have to put up with quite a bit of it before you can force anyone into an asylum or something.
Assuming you talked to the guy about the bleach already and he's really an asshole who doesn't care, that's probably the one thing you could sue him for, but that's the usual way is to get an attorney to write something along the lines of "put your fucking bleach where it doesn't stink up the neighborhood or I'll see you in court" and then follow through if that doesn't help.
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@LaoC said in Neighbor WTF:
Also that they think building management is the party to decide who can put cameras where, outside of the condos.
I agree with the rest of your post, but taking someone else's cameras is simply theft. It really doesn't matter whether they were legal or whether they violated some contract by putting them up (which, unlike theft, would actually be a "civil matter"), you can't just remove someone else's property.
Not taking a report for this is completely unreasonable and pure laziness. They're refusing to do their job.
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@dfdub said in Neighbor WTF:
I agree with the rest of your post, but taking someone else's cameras is simply theft. It really doesn't matter whether they were legal or whether they violated some contract by putting them up (which, unlike theft, would actually be a "civil matter"), you can't just remove someone else's property.
Not taking a report for this is completely unreasonable and pure laziness. They're refusing to do their job.I'd agree with this except I'm unclear whether they were placed on @dangeRuss's property or in a common area (like a hallway, to catch someone knocking on doors). If the latter, that may be a problem.
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@heterodox Even in that case, they may be in the right in removing the cameras, but refusing to give them back to the owner is theft.
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@hungrier said in Neighbor WTF:
@heterodox Even in that case, they may be in the right in removing the cameras, but refusing to give them back to the owner is theft.
Agreed. Should be confiscated and returned.
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@hungrier said in Neighbor WTF:
@heterodox Even in that case, they may be in the right in removing the cameras, but refusing to give them back to the owner is theft.
Maybe. In the US at least, it depends on any rental or HOA agreement and state or local laws. For instance, in the HOA for my townhouse, if somebody puts something decorative on the siding without permission, and they refuse to remove it after being asked, the HOA can take it down, dispose of it, and assess the homeowner for the above and for any siding repair that needs to happen.
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@mikehurley ...as if there weren't enough reasons to despise HOAs already, now they're writing legitimization of theft into their contracts?
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Neighbor WTF:
@mikehurley ...as if there weren't enough reasons to despise HOAs already, now they're writing legitimization of theft into their contracts?
While I mentioned an HOA example, I wouldn't be surprised if similar rules can exist for rental agreements for apartments or rented houses.
I would argue it's not theft if it's agreed to in the covenants. In MN at least the buyer must be supplied with the rules and covenants and those can be used to back out of the purchase agreement with no penalty. The problem is people don't read them, apparently. I did. It's not that hard. Interesting things I've learned while being on the board of my HOA.
I agree about HOAs for single family houses, but I think they're required for townhomes. If you then say maybe townhomes shouldn't exist, fair enough.
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@mikehurley said in Neighbor WTF:
@Mason_Wheeler said in Neighbor WTF:
@mikehurley ...as if there weren't enough reasons to despise HOAs already, now they're writing legitimization of theft into their contracts?
While I mentioned an HOA example, I wouldn't be surprised if similar rules can exist for rental agreements for apartments or rented houses.
I would argue it's not theft if it's agreed to in the covenants. In MN at least the buyer must be supplied with the rules and covenants and those can be used to back out of the purchase agreement with no penalty. The problem is people don't read them, apparently. I did. It's not that hard. Interesting things I've learned while being on the board of my HOA.
I agree about HOAs for single family houses, but I think they're required for townhomes. If you then say maybe townhomes shouldn't exist, fair enough.
HOAs are required for most single family home developments now because the cities make it a requirement. So that the city doesn't have to pay to maintain the infrastructure within the development and has someone to bug. Seriously--it's a very rare situation where new construction doesn't have an HOA or a deed restriction attached.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Neighbor WTF:
@mikehurley said in Neighbor WTF:
@Mason_Wheeler said in Neighbor WTF:
@mikehurley ...as if there weren't enough reasons to despise HOAs already, now they're writing legitimization of theft into their contracts?
While I mentioned an HOA example, I wouldn't be surprised if similar rules can exist for rental agreements for apartments or rented houses.
I would argue it's not theft if it's agreed to in the covenants. In MN at least the buyer must be supplied with the rules and covenants and those can be used to back out of the purchase agreement with no penalty. The problem is people don't read them, apparently. I did. It's not that hard. Interesting things I've learned while being on the board of my HOA.
I agree about HOAs for single family houses, but I think they're required for townhomes. If you then say maybe townhomes shouldn't exist, fair enough.
HOAs are required for most single family home developments now because the cities make it a requirement. So that the city doesn't have to pay to maintain the infrastructure within the development and has someone to bug. Seriously--it's a very rare situation where new construction doesn't have an HOA or a deed restriction attached.
That's a bunch of nonsense. It's funny when cities do things like that and then claim to be low tax. My favorite in this category is the way street improvements are assessed. We have low taxes but now you have to pay $10k for your share of the road improvement! Just add it to my property taxes.
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@mikehurley said in Neighbor WTF:
I agree about HOAs for single family houses, but I think they're required for townhomes. If you then say maybe townhomes shouldn't exist, fair enough.
I live in a townhouse and do just fine without HOA.
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@hungrier said in Neighbor WTF:
@mikehurley said in Neighbor WTF:
I agree about HOAs for single family houses, but I think they're required for townhomes. If you then say maybe townhomes shouldn't exist, fair enough.
I live in a townhouse and do just fine without HOA.
Have you had to replace siding or shingles that go across units? If the answer is no because they're all independent (not touching), are they really townhomes?
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@mikehurley I personally haven't; I've only replaced shingles on my own roof and haven't lived at my place long enough to need to redo the entire roof. But the houses are definitely physically connected, roof and all
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@dfdub said in Neighbor WTF:
@LaoC said in Neighbor WTF:
Also that they think building management is the party to decide who can put cameras where, outside of the condos.
I agree with the rest of your post, but taking someone else's cameras is simply theft. It really doesn't matter whether they were legal or whether they violated some contract by putting them up (which, unlike theft, would actually be a "civil matter"), you can't just remove someone else's property.
Of course you can. If someone asked if they can park on your driveway and you said no but they parked there anyway, if you want to leave with your own car you have to have theirs removed. That's taking possession of someone else's stuff but totally legitimate. Even if they didn't ask but it should have been reasonably obvious they can't park there.
I suppose in some jurisdictions the building management would be obliged to take the cameras down to protect the neighbors' right not to be bigbrothered on.As @hungrier said, management usually has to give them back though, just like when they tow a car, but they can refuse to do that until they're compensated for the work it caused.
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@LaoC said in Neighbor WTF:
@dfdub said in Neighbor WTF:
@LaoC said in Neighbor WTF:
Also that they think building management is the party to decide who can put cameras where, outside of the condos.
I agree with the rest of your post, but taking someone else's cameras is simply theft. It really doesn't matter whether they were legal or whether they violated some contract by putting them up (which, unlike theft, would actually be a "civil matter"), you can't just remove someone else's property.
Of course you can. If someone asked if they can park on your driveway and you said no but they parked there anyway, if you want to leave with your own car you have to have theirs removed. That's taking possession of someone else's stuff but totally legitimate. Even if they didn't ask but it should have been reasonably obvious they can't park there.
Generally speaking, in such a situation you don't take possession of their car; you call a towing agency that's licensed to do so and knows how to navigate the legalities of such an act so that they don't end up on the wrong side of various laws regarding theft of property and the possession thereof.
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@mikehurley said in Neighbor WTF:
For instance, in the HOA for my townhouse, if somebody puts something decorative on the siding without permission, and they refuse to remove it after being asked, the HOA can take it down, dispose of it, and assess the homeowner for the above and for any siding repair that needs to happen.
Are you sure the highlighted part is actually enforceable? Because I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be where I live.
Contracts can say a lot; that doesn't automatically make it legal.
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@dfdub said in Neighbor WTF:
@mikehurley said in Neighbor WTF:
For instance, in the HOA for my townhouse, if somebody puts something decorative on the siding without permission, and they refuse to remove it after being asked, the HOA can take it down, dispose of it, and assess the homeowner for the above and for any siding repair that needs to happen.
Are you sure the highlighted part is actually enforceable? Because I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be where I live.
Contracts can say a lot; that doesn't automatically make it legal.
At least with my HOA, the HOA owns the outside of common dwellings (not single-family homes but townhouses). So yeah. You put your crap illegally on their property and damaged it in the process. Most will just assess fees until you fix the violation, but removal, disposal, and assessment sounds right to me in egregious cases.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Neighbor WTF:
You put your crap illegally on their property and damaged it in the process. Most will just assess fees until you fix the violation, but removal, disposal, and assessment sounds right to me in egregious cases.
I don't actually have any relevant legal knowledge, but I'm guessing that a judge might also take the value of the removed property into account. Throwing away some ugly, cheap decoration and destroying an expensive camera might be interpreted differently.
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@dfdub said in Neighbor WTF:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Neighbor WTF:
You put your crap illegally on their property and damaged it in the process. Most will just assess fees until you fix the violation, but removal, disposal, and assessment sounds right to me in egregious cases.
I don't actually have any relevant legal knowledge, but I'm guessing that a judge might also take the value of the removed property into account. Throwing away some ugly, cheap decoration and destroying an expensive camera might be interpreted differently.
I would also expect the judge to account for the homeowner not asking for permission up front. Also for not asking for permission after being told to take it down. Likely the HOA will issue more than one warning. In my HOA we'd most likely accept reasonable requests even if made when we ask them to take it down. We would still insist on official permission being asked and given. Otherwise you get other homeowners being children and saying stuff like "well they didn't have to do that". Some of the pedantry of HOAs comes from wanting to not deal with people who will try to push those buttons and may have legal recourse to push even harder (HOAs can be sued for not enforcing rules consistently or ignoring rules).
@dfdub said in Neighbor WTF:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Neighbor WTF:
You put your crap illegally on their property and damaged it in the process. Most will just assess fees until you fix the violation, but removal, disposal, and assessment sounds right to me in egregious cases.
I don't actually have any relevant legal knowledge, but I'm guessing that a judge might also take the value of the removed property into account. Throwing away some ugly, cheap decoration and destroying an expensive camera might be interpreted differently.
If I own a single family home and you install expensive stuff on the outside of it I'd be well within my rights to throw that junk away and possibly sue you if I knew who you were. Equally, the homeowners in a townhome HOA (typically) don't own the outside of their unit, the HOA does. The only difference I see is in the single family home scenario you also have trespassing going on.
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@dfdub said in Neighbor WTF:
@mikehurley said in Neighbor WTF:
For instance, in the HOA for my townhouse, if somebody puts something decorative on the siding without permission, and they refuse to remove it after being asked, the HOA can take it down, dispose of it, and assess the homeowner for the above and for any siding repair that needs to happen.
Are you sure the highlighted part is actually enforceable? Because I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be where I live.
Contracts can say a lot; that doesn't automatically make it legal.
That could get into a interesting area... Is it really your camera? Prove it.
If I found something attached to my property, I'd pulverize it into little tiny pieces. Sure, try and sue me. I had no way of knowing it was yours!
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Neighbor WTF:
@mikehurley said in Neighbor WTF:
@Mason_Wheeler said in Neighbor WTF:
@mikehurley ...as if there weren't enough reasons to despise HOAs already, now they're writing legitimization of theft into their contracts?
While I mentioned an HOA example, I wouldn't be surprised if similar rules can exist for rental agreements for apartments or rented houses.
I would argue it's not theft if it's agreed to in the covenants. In MN at least the buyer must be supplied with the rules and covenants and those can be used to back out of the purchase agreement with no penalty. The problem is people don't read them, apparently. I did. It's not that hard. Interesting things I've learned while being on the board of my HOA.
I agree about HOAs for single family houses, but I think they're required for townhomes. If you then say maybe townhomes shouldn't exist, fair enough.
HOAs are required for most single family home developments now because the cities make it a requirement. So that the city doesn't have to pay to maintain the infrastructure within the development and has someone to bug. Seriously--it's a very rare situation where new construction doesn't have an HOA or a deed restriction attached.
No doubt this varies by state (and maybe even county / municipality). I don't remember HOAs at all (aside from, e.g., gated communities and the like) but they're everywhere here in Virginia.
They seem to vary a lot in quality. Mine is actually pretty good, which is largely a reflection of the president. He's retired and takes a very active interest in...a lot. He goes around and knows pretty much everyone, gets after kids who litter while they're playing soccer, does detective work on who's dumping garbage in the neighborhood, etc.
I've gotten a lot of "Fix this!" notices from them over the years and they were pretty much all legit.
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@dcon said in Neighbor WTF:
If I found something attached to my property, I'd pulverize it into little tiny pieces. Sure, try and sue me. I had no way of knowing it was yours!
That's where you end up tripping over places in the law where it talks about things you know "or reasonably should have known." Phrasing like that is in there specifically to keep people from doing smart-aleck stuff exactly like that.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Neighbor WTF:
@dfdub said in Neighbor WTF:
@mikehurley said in Neighbor WTF:
For instance, in the HOA for my townhouse, if somebody puts something decorative on the siding without permission, and they refuse to remove it after being asked, the HOA can take it down, dispose of it, and assess the homeowner for the above and for any siding repair that needs to happen.
Are you sure the highlighted part is actually enforceable? Because I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be where I live.
Contracts can say a lot; that doesn't automatically make it legal.
At least with my HOA, the HOA owns the outside of common dwellings (not single-family homes but townhouses). So yeah. You put your crap illegally on their property and damaged it in the process. Most will just assess fees until you fix the violation, but removal, disposal, and assessment sounds right to me in egregious cases.
That's not even legal here in Germany. While you can remove things, you cannot dispose of them. That would be theft and prosecuted as such.
One of the reasons why, for example, if I catch an underage pupil with alcohol I can only confiscate it and then hand said alcohol over to the parents.
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@Rhywden said in Neighbor WTF:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Neighbor WTF:
@dfdub said in Neighbor WTF:
@mikehurley said in Neighbor WTF:
For instance, in the HOA for my townhouse, if somebody puts something decorative on the siding without permission, and they refuse to remove it after being asked, the HOA can take it down, dispose of it, and assess the homeowner for the above and for any siding repair that needs to happen.
Are you sure the highlighted part is actually enforceable? Because I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be where I live.
Contracts can say a lot; that doesn't automatically make it legal.
At least with my HOA, the HOA owns the outside of common dwellings (not single-family homes but townhouses). So yeah. You put your crap illegally on their property and damaged it in the process. Most will just assess fees until you fix the violation, but removal, disposal, and assessment sounds right to me in egregious cases.
That's not even legal here in Germany. While you can remove things, you cannot dispose of them. That would be theft and prosecuted as such.
One of the reasons why, for example, if I catch an underage pupil with alcohol I can only confiscate it and then hand said alcohol over to the parents.
In our condo complex we run into stuff like that - tenants (usually former ones) leaving behind things in the common areas. and it's near impossible to dispose of it since you can't prove who owns it.
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@PleegWat Reasonable jurisdictions would deal with this by putting a time limit on the statute. (ie. if the property remains unclaimed for X number of weeks, it can be considered abandoned and thrown out without penalty.)
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@Mason_Wheeler We have done it once in the past - it is against the rules to put your own stuff in the common areas, so with advance warning stuff can be removed. But the board doesn't really want to do that because they fear cleaning people's junk up for them will just encourage them to leave more junk.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Neighbor WTF:
Reasonable jurisdictions would deal with this by putting a time limit on the statute. (ie. if the property remains unclaimed for X number of weeks, it can be considered abandoned and thrown out without penalty.)
I'm pretty sure most jurisdictions have such rules, provided you make a reasonable attempt to find the owner first. But there's still a huge difference between that and immediately destroying property you found in a common area, especially if you know the owner, or outright stealing property with a known owner, which is what happened in the story that started this discussion. I'd still be surprised if the latter was actually legal anywhere.
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@dfdub said in Neighbor WTF:
immediately destroying property you found in a common area, especially if you know the owner
Yeah, that's a no-no.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Neighbor WTF:
@LaoC said in Neighbor WTF:
@dfdub said in Neighbor WTF:
@LaoC said in Neighbor WTF:
Also that they think building management is the party to decide who can put cameras where, outside of the condos.
I agree with the rest of your post, but taking someone else's cameras is simply theft. It really doesn't matter whether they were legal or whether they violated some contract by putting them up (which, unlike theft, would actually be a "civil matter"), you can't just remove someone else's property.
Of course you can. If someone asked if they can park on your driveway and you said no but they parked there anyway, if you want to leave with your own car you have to have theirs removed. That's taking possession of someone else's stuff but totally legitimate. Even if they didn't ask but it should have been reasonably obvious they can't park there.
Generally speaking, in such a situation you don't take possession of their car; you call a towing agency that's licensed to do so and knows how to navigate the legalities of such an act so that they don't end up on the wrong side of various laws regarding theft of property and the possession thereof.
In the US, every village can have its own rules, but for example in Canada or Germany you can generally remove (yourself or via a third party) whatever kind of stuff other people left on your property if it's causing you a problem.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Neighbor WTF:
@dfdub said in Neighbor WTF:
immediately destroying property you found in a common area, especially if you know the owner
Yeah, that's a no-no.
I'd say there's a massive difference between somebody leaving a laptop in a condo lobby (could be in the bathroom, or just forgot it) and unapproved stuff on the building's exterior.
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@mikehurley said in Neighbor WTF:
@Mason_Wheeler said in Neighbor WTF:
@dfdub said in Neighbor WTF:
immediately destroying property you found in a common area, especially if you know the owner
Yeah, that's a no-no.
I'd say there's a massive difference between somebody leaving a laptop in a condo lobby (could be in the bathroom, or just forgot it) and unapproved stuff on the building's exterior.
There's actually no "massive difference". The only difference it does make is your right to remove such things and where you're allowed to remove them to (usually not the waste bin or similar, just to prevent
)
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@heterodox said in Neighbor WTF:
@Cursorkeys said in Neighbor WTF:
Is there any local authority that deals with protection for older people? Here it would be the local council if you need to report problems with the treatment of an older person.
In the U.S. it's usually called Adult Protective Services.
Reading the reviews from local offices of adult protective services, I have approximately 0 confidence that they will do anything.
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@LaoC said in Neighbor WTF:
@dangeRuss said in Neighbor WTF:
My mom has been at war with her neighbor for some time now. He is taking care of his even more elderly "mother", and being old I'm not surprised that she experiences incontinence. The problem arises when he decides to put the soiled bedsheets/clothes into a hamper of some sort and soaks it in some chemical, most likely chlorine.
A few weeks back there was an incident where the old woman that the neighbor is taking care of escaped in the middle of the night and started knocking on doors asking for help. My mom called the coos, but by the time they arrived, he has brought her back into the house and claimed that there is no issue.
We asked the building management for a copy of the video from the time, but unsurprisingly they refused.
We had no choice but to install our own cameras. When the building management found out, they told us we can't have them.
Well, that escalated quickly.
No offense, but was that really necessary? I mean, I can understand that cops think it's not their job to take care of an old lady when the neighbors know full well where she belongs and all they have to do is ring an her relative's door and ask them to take her back in. Also that they think building management is the party to decide who can put cameras where, outside of the condos.That would require going outside to the hallway. My mom doesn't know for sure if it's the neighbor, who else might be there and in general fears for her safety, especially at 3am.
What should the cameras achieve anyway, prove that a senile lady has been knocking on your door at night? It's not like that's an offense unless it's unacceptably frequent and really badly disturbing, is it? It's something that's part of life like a screaming baby, usually you have to put up with quite a bit of it before you can force anyone into an asylum or something.
It's not just about her, she barely comes out. It's about the son, who's been threatening my mom.
Assuming you talked to the guy about the bleach already and he's really an asshole who doesn't care, that's probably the one thing you could sue him for, but that's the usual way is to get an attorney to write something along the lines of "put your fucking bleach where it doesn't stink up the neighborhood or I'll see you in court" and then follow through if that doesn't help.
I may have skipped some parts. I haven't actually talked to the neighbor myself, and although I've been considering it, I'm not sure if it will do more harm than good. My mom claims he's crazy, and she tried to talk to him, but now they just end up screaming at each other and she's afraid for her life. She lives alone and if he hits her, she wouldn't even be able to prove anything. She said he's threatened to hit her and she runs away, he tries to break into the house a few times chasing her. Of course right now these things are he said she said and the cops don't do shit even if they are called. Having it captured on camera shifts the equation a bit.
Also the apartment manager claims he's spoken to the guy, told him to stop using bleach to clean and that the guy complied. My mom says he's still doing it.
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@LaoC said in Neighbor WTF:
@dfdub said in Neighbor WTF:
@LaoC said in Neighbor WTF:
Also that they think building management is the party to decide who can put cameras where, outside of the condos.
I agree with the rest of your post, but taking someone else's cameras is simply theft. It really doesn't matter whether they were legal or whether they violated some contract by putting them up (which, unlike theft, would actually be a "civil matter"), you can't just remove someone else's property.
Of course you can. If someone asked if they can park on your driveway and you said no but they parked there anyway, if you want to leave with your own car you have to have theirs removed. That's taking possession of someone else's stuff but totally legitimate. Even if they didn't ask but it should have been reasonably obvious they can't park there.
I suppose in some jurisdictions the building management would be obliged to take the cameras down to protect the neighbors' right not to be bigbrothered on.As @hungrier said, management usually has to give them back though, just like when they tow a car, but they can refuse to do that until they're compensated for the work it caused.
When I spoke to the building manager, he said you out up cameras without permission. I said well you didn't respond to my request for the video clip of the incident, so I had no choice. I said what's the problem with the cameras, he said you can't have them. I said can do you have something in writing that says that, he says no. I said if you find something in writing, I will be happy to take them down, otherwise we are keeping them up and any attempts to remove them will be considered theft and reported to the police.
He did send a certified letter about a week later, but my mom wasn't home to receive it, and is too sick to brave the heat to go to the Post office. Is he required to make sure his letter is actually received before taking action? Or is sending it enough?
Another interesting note is that the cops asked the super to give it back and he claimed he brought them to the building managers office. The cops said if the cameras are not returned by Monday to call them again. This was last Friday.
My mom doesn't have the health to deal with this and she actually ended up in a hospital with what thankfully turned out not to be a heart attack. I live about an hour away in another state and it's not easy for me to come and deal with this either, especially during the weekdays.
I come down there maybe once a month, but I'm not sure what I can do to make the situation better. The biggest issue is not the cameras, it's the smell. The smell seemed to have gotten better while the cameras were up, because as we know people act better when they think they're being watched. My mom even claims to super actually slept in his apartment (he lives across) instead of sleeping in his brothers house for the duration of time that the cameras were here.
I also think it's funny that the police will respond to a noise complaint, but won't do shit about smell. I also think it's pretty sad that we don't have a device to record smells
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@dangeRuss said in Neighbor WTF:
He did send a certified letter about a week later, but my mom wasn't home to receive it, and is too sick to brave the heat to go to the Post office. Is he required to make sure his letter is actually received before taking action? Or is sending it enough?
Again, I don't know anything about your jurisdiction, but in general, letters may legally count as delivered even if there's no proof you personally opened them if you've been notified of their existence and they have been at your local post office long enough. Otherwise, people could just shield themselves from legal consequences by never retrieving and opening their letters. I very much doubt your Mom's excuse would fly in a court of law - you may be expected to read your mail even if you're indisposed.
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@dangeRuss said in Neighbor WTF:
My mom doesn't have the health to deal with this and she actually ended up in a hospital with what thankfully turned out not to be a heart attack. I live about an hour away in another state and it's not easy for me to come and deal with this either, especially during the weekdays.
I come down there maybe once a month, but I'm not sure what I can do to make the situation better.As hard as this may be to hear, it's really starting to sound like the most helpful thing you could do at this point, given her status, is to help her get out of there and into assisted living.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Neighbor WTF:
@dangeRuss said in Neighbor WTF:
My mom doesn't have the health to deal with this and she actually ended up in a hospital with what thankfully turned out not to be a heart attack. I live about an hour away in another state and it's not easy for me to come and deal with this either, especially during the weekdays.
I come down there maybe once a month, but I'm not sure what I can do to make the situation better.As hard as this may be to hear, it's really starting to sound like the most helpful thing you could do at this point, given her status, is to help her get out of there and into assisted living.
She doesn't need assisted living. He neighbor should be either in assisted living or a nursing home. That would really help. My mom is really independent and already gets help, she just can't solve this pesky neighbor problem. She lives like a block from the beach, which is why she's not really inclined to move. I'm not sure why the neighbors are staying in the apartment, since they almost never leave the house.
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@dangeRuss said in Neighbor WTF:
. I live about an hour away in another state and it's not easy for me to come and deal with this either, especially during the weekdays.
I come down there maybe once a month, but I'm not sure what I can do to make the situation better.Maybe take a week off and try staying there so you can observe and take action when something happens. You might also find that your mom has been exaggerating or making things up herself. I'm not accusing her, just saying that I've observed that sort of thing with some of my elderly relatives.
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@dangeRuss said in Neighbor WTF:
My mom is really independent and already gets help, she just can't solve this pesky neighbor problem.
Hmm... this kinda seems to contradict what you said earlier:
@dangeRuss said in Neighbor WTF:
He did send a certified letter about a week later, but my mom wasn't home to receive it, and is too sick to brave the heat to go to the Post office.
...
My mom doesn't have the health to deal with this and she actually ended up in a hospital with what thankfully turned out not to be a heart attack.
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@boomzilla said in Neighbor WTF:
@dangeRuss said in Neighbor WTF:
. I live about an hour away in another state and it's not easy for me to come and deal with this either, especially during the weekdays.
I come down there maybe once a month, but I'm not sure what I can do to make the situation better.Maybe take a week off and try staying there so you can observe and take action when something happens. You might also find that your mom has been exaggerating or making things up herself. I'm not accusing her, just saying that I've observed that sort of thing with some of my elderly relatives.
I've visited on the weekend, and after just staying there for a few hours, I noticed adverse health effects. While there is a bit of a smell, I didn't actually notice a strong bleach odor. I don't think I can last a week there.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Neighbor WTF:
@dangeRuss said in Neighbor WTF:
My mom is really independent and already gets help, she just can't solve this pesky neighbor problem.
Hmm... this kinda seems to contradict what you said earlier:
@dangeRuss said in Neighbor WTF:
He did send a certified letter about a week later, but my mom wasn't home to receive it, and is too sick to brave the heat to go to the Post office.
...
My mom doesn't have the health to deal with this and she actually ended up in a hospital with what thankfully turned out not to be a heart attack.She is not in perfect health, but she mostly manages. She has some people to help her do the day to day things. She gets to basically live next to the beach, and there's no way she's going to be happy in some care facility. Not until her health is at a point where she can't leave the house.
If she really wanted to, could she have gotten the letter from the post office? Probably. Should she be faced with that burden? I don't think so. When people take you to court they make sure that you are served with the papers. If the landlord wanted her to receive the letter, he could've hand-delivered it or have the super do it. She should not be forced to go out of her way to the post office to pick up said letter.
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@dangeRuss said in Neighbor WTF:
If she really wanted to, could she have gotten the letter from the post office? Probably. Should she be faced with that burden? I don't think so. When people take you to court they make sure that you are served with the papers. If the landlord wanted her to receive the letter, he could've hand-delivered it or have the super do it. She should not be forced to go out of her way to the post office to pick up said letter.
Check the lease documents. In many jurisdictions part of the lease is what constitutes legal notice, and in many cases a certified letter to an approved address is sufficient.
IF that is the case, it may be appropriate to change that address to something that is monitored frequently
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@dangeRuss said in Neighbor WTF:
When people take you to court they make sure that you are served with the papers.
Yes, but certified mail is typically the first attempt at doing so, before resorting to a more expensive process server.
If the landlord wanted her to receive the letter, he could've hand-delivered it or have the super do it. She should not be forced to go out of her way to the post office to pick up said letter.
If they delivered it in person there would be no proof of delivery. Sounds like they're trying to properly arm themselves if it turns into a legal fight.
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@dangeRuss said in Neighbor WTF:
@LaoC said in Neighbor WTF:
@dangeRuss said in Neighbor WTF:
My mom has been at war with her neighbor for some time now. He is taking care of his even more elderly "mother", and being old I'm not surprised that she experiences incontinence. The problem arises when he decides to put the soiled bedsheets/clothes into a hamper of some sort and soaks it in some chemical, most likely chlorine.
A few weeks back there was an incident where the old woman that the neighbor is taking care of escaped in the middle of the night and started knocking on doors asking for help. My mom called the coos, but by the time they arrived, he has brought her back into the house and claimed that there is no issue.
We asked the building management for a copy of the video from the time, but unsurprisingly they refused.
We had no choice but to install our own cameras. When the building management found out, they told us we can't have them.
Well, that escalated quickly.
No offense, but was that really necessary? I mean, I can understand that cops think it's not their job to take care of an old lady when the neighbors know full well where she belongs and all they have to do is ring an her relative's door and ask them to take her back in. Also that they think building management is the party to decide who can put cameras where, outside of the condos.That would require going outside to the hallway. My mom doesn't know for sure if it's the neighbor, who else might be there and in general fears for her safety, especially at 3am.
One of those door peepholes should help, and that's something nobody could complain about.
What should the cameras achieve anyway, prove that a senile lady has been knocking on your door at night? It's not like that's an offense unless it's unacceptably frequent and really badly disturbing, is it? It's something that's part of life like a screaming baby, usually you have to put up with quite a bit of it before you can force anyone into an asylum or something.
It's not just about her, she barely comes out. It's about the son, who's been threatening my mom.
OK, that's quite a different level already. And the cops won't take care of that either?
Assuming you talked to the guy about the bleach already and he's really an asshole who doesn't care, that's probably the one thing you could sue him for, but that's the usual way is to get an attorney to write something along the lines of "put your fucking bleach where it doesn't stink up the neighborhood or I'll see you in court" and then follow through if that doesn't help.
I may have skipped some parts. I haven't actually talked to the neighbor myself, and although I've been considering it, I'm not sure if it will do more harm than good. My mom claims he's crazy, and she tried to talk to him, but now they just end up screaming at each other and she's afraid for her life. She lives alone and if he hits her, she wouldn't even be able to prove anything.
Talk to him in the presence of a witness? Surely there are other people in the condo less than thrilled about a crazy dude using toxic shit in public areas?
