Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive)
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@Applied Mediocrity said in creating a thread is so expensive:
@sockpuppet7 said in creating a thread is so expensive:
If we didn't have megatopics
We would have megacategories
I lose a lot of interesting stuff in the megatopics
That problem can probably be solved by having the Popcorn button (like Song of the Day). Whether it then forces all discussions into another megatopic (like song comments) or creates another thread (perhaps the referring post id can be used to see if thread about the particular post exists) is then something to further bikeshed about.
Simply click the dots button on any post and click "Reply as Topic" to create a reply in a new topic, like I did just now.
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@PleegWat Though I note a new topic like this is not referenced in the originating post in any way.
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@PleegWat said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Simply click the dots button on any post and click "Reply as Topic" to create a reply in a new topic, like I did just now.
I can != I have to.
Song of the Day is special. Popcorn is mandated by a
.
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One thing that got lost when Usenet died (yes, I know, not exactly, but we already had that discussion last week or so) was the branching view of discussions.
In forums now (here and mostly everywhere), you get a linear view from post 1 to N, but the conversation usually goes with several branches. One way to emulate those branches is to create new threads at some point, but you loose the link to the "trunk" from which the branch was created, and you loose the ability to "merge" back the discussion when it comes back to something being discussed in a different thread.
You might also note that the terms I've been using above are very similar to those used in version control systems. I'm not saying a forum should emulate git (although there are plenty of old gits here, detached heads abound in the garage and many other puns...) but... actually maybe I'm saying it should, or at least think about it.
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@remi Topic drift (without adjusting the subject) was a thing in usenet too though.
I suspect part of the reason threaded doesn't work well in web platforms is the desire to show more than one post at a time.
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@PleegWat reddit is threaded, I read it in baconreader and I think threaded mechanisms are better
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@sockpuppet7 as long as there's a max embedding level. Reading posts that are one character wide is not fun.
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@sockpuppet7 said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
baconreader
What's it do?
I haven't got very much Reddit on me, but the vanilla threading is horrible. Basically scrolling replaced by lots of clicking (and scrolling anyway). If there's tecknomagical solution for that, I want to see it.
But it's not just UX problem anyway. Lots of bulletin board systems support(ed) threading in some capacity and they're still a pain in the ass in good part because people don't organize their thoughts into either megalists or threads, and something always gets posted/replied in the wrong place anyway. Or someone had something to say that referred to several different levels or several replies which then morphed into one (multiple inheritance in disguise; Hans, bring ze C++ spec!).
Which means either mods will have to do lots of work policing proper chaining, (optionally) enforcing strict on-topic rules, at least for certain topics, or there's one kind of garbage replaced by another. No clever automation and self-policing will result into more order.
Attempting to dismantle megatopics can only be done by curtailing off-topic, the only thing to decide is the color of the shed mods will have to live in.
By all means, do keep on with this thing. It's what computing industry does best of all. The world would have run out of work to do a long time ago without constant reorgs and furniture shuffling.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
the only thing to decide is the color of the shed mods will have to live in.
... point seven on the agenda, the mod shed needs to be repainted this year. John will be coming in next week to paint it green. Moving on to point eight...
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Implies the existence of a :gay_ruler:.
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@Applied-Mediocrity Baconreader is an android application for reading Reddit. I think it uses it's public API.
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@error said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@Applied-Mediocrity said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Implies the existence of a :gay_ruler:.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@sockpuppet7 as long as there's a max embedding level. Reading posts that are one character wide is not fun.
It's
worsealmost as bad. 3 replies in you need to click a "continue this discussion" or whatever link and the resulting navigation is completely jarring.
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@topspin said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@Benjamin-Hall said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@sockpuppet7 as long as there's a max embedding level. Reading posts that are one character wide is not fun.
It's
worsealmost as bad. 3 replies in you need to click a "continue this discussion" or whatever link and the resulting navigation is completely jarring.That must be a per-sub-reddit setting. Because the ones I'm active on don't have that. Or maybe I only really see those types of things on desktop, where that's not there.
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@error said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@Applied-Mediocrity said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Implies the existence of a :gay_ruler:.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@topspin said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@Benjamin-Hall said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@sockpuppet7 as long as there's a max embedding level. Reading posts that are one character wide is not fun.
It's
worsealmost as bad. 3 replies in you need to click a "continue this discussion" or whatever link and the resulting navigation is completely jarring.That must be a per-sub-reddit setting. Because the ones I'm active on don't have that.
No idea. Random thread:
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Yeah, love that "Continue this thread" takes you to a new page with just that chain in it and you are not even at the right location in that chain most of the time. Why can't it just expand in place, like a sane system would do?
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@topspin Is that the web interface? That's intentionally hobbled (on mobile at least, to push people to the apps. Which also suck. But that's a separate issue.)
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@Dragoon said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Yeah, love that "Continue this thread" takes you to a new page with just that chain in it and you are not even at the right location in that chain most of the time. Why can't it just expand in place, like a sane system would do?
And then that "chain" has two more replies and when you navigate back you lost your reading position. Jellypotato 1.0.
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@Dragoon said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Yeah, love that "Continue this thread" takes you to a new page with just that chain in it and you are not even at the right location in that chain most of the time. Why can't it just expand in place, like a sane system would do?
There's another view which has them all expanded. Plus, there's always the 'old' Reddit view.
@Benjamin-Hall said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
(on mobile at least, to push people to the apps. Which also suck. But that's a separate issue.)
The Reddit iOS app works fine IME.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
That's intentionally hobbled (on mobile at least, to push people to the apps. Which also suck. But that's a separate issue.)
Yeah, almost every page displays a stupid banner by now that says
- Get our app
- Continue in Safari
made to resemble a system option and by that point even if the app actually was useful I'd click continue out of spite.
It's weird, I use an old-school Email program (Thunderbird) where everyone uses the web version, but for everything else people use a dedicated app on mobile even if it only displays a web view.
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@topspin said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Continue in Safari
Which says that even if you're using Firefox or Chrome.
Yeah, I know why, but still.
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@loopback0 said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
there's always the 'old' Reddit view.
It still doesn't do 'continue this thread' very well though.
Threaded views have a problem in that you can't easily see all new posts, when they're scattered across the topic. Threaded topics are great for relatively small topics, but a large one becomes completely unwieldy very quickly.
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@bobjanova said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@loopback0 said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
there's always the 'old' Reddit view.
It still doesn't do 'continue this thread' very well though.
Threaded views have a problem in that you can't easily see all new posts, when they're scattered across the topic. Threaded topics are great for relatively small topics, but a large one becomes completely unwieldy very quickly.
I've only ever seen marking individual posts as read automatically work well if only one post is displayed at a time.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@topspin said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@Benjamin-Hall said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@sockpuppet7 as long as there's a max embedding level. Reading posts that are one character wide is not fun.
It's
worsealmost as bad. 3 replies in you need to click a "continue this discussion" or whatever link and the resulting navigation is completely jarring.That must be a per-sub-reddit setting. Because the ones I'm active on don't have that. Or maybe I only really see those types of things on desktop, where that's not there.
It varies quite a bit between old.reddit, new.reddit, and RES in either as well as the default view combination. In this browser (using old+RES) it's defaulting to Best and 200 Comments in most subreddits, so everything above that gets squashed into either "load more comments" or "continue this thread ->". New infiniscrolls instead.
Over on my Android phone the mobile views give those annoying "use app/keep using Chrome" popups in every browser except Firefox. Normally I use the official app, though. (It's not great, but it's free.)
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@PleegWat said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@remi Topic drift (without adjusting the subject) was a thing in usenet too though.
Yes, absolutely. And this is the reason why the branching view was good, because it allowed you to follow one drift without being bothered by the other branches.
(case in point: this very thread, by the time I'm answering your post, has already drifted to some discussion of Reddit, and my post will appear as disjointed from those around it to people reading the whole thread -- in a branched view (like Reddit, yes, which is indeed continuing the old newsgroup style), that's not the case)
I suspect part of the reason threaded doesn't work well in web platforms is the desire to show more than one post at a time.
Another reason is that branching actually looses the "freshness" of posts, as in you don't see if two replies happened at the same time or days apart. You can always check the time, of course, but that's an additional effort. It very much depends on topics and communities, but sometimes that can make things less readable because you don't see easily which parts of a discussion are still active.
I'm not saying the old times Usenet view was perfect, far from it, but I feel like forums have been far too quick to throw it out entirely, bathwater and baby together.
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@PleegWat said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@PleegWat Though I note a new topic like this is not referenced in the originating post in any way.
: Discourse does it.
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@topspin said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Yeah, almost every page displays a stupid banner by now that says
Get our app
Continue in SafariI need some blocker for stupid things that aren't ads, like cookie agreements and telling me to install an app
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@error said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@Applied-Mediocrity said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Implies the existence of a :gay_ruler:.
False.
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@bobjanova said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Threaded views have a problem in that you can't easily see all new posts, when they're scattered across the topic. Threaded topics are great for relatively small topics, but a large one becomes completely unwieldy very quickly.
we could have both views, nodebb already stores and show what post I'm replying to
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The mental overhead of creating a new topic is still there though: need to come up with an appropriate topic.
(Either that, or we'll end up with over 9000 "Re: WTF Bites" threads.)
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@cvi said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Either that, or we'll end up with over 9000 "Re: WTF Bites" threads.
That is, the @Polygeekery method of thread naming.
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@boomzilla said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@cvi said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Either that, or we'll end up with over 9000 "Re: WTF Bites" threads.
That is, the @Polygeekery method of thread naming.
It's the default.
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@PleegWat said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
It's the default.
So is
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@boomzilla said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@cvi said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Either that, or we'll end up with over 9000 "Re: WTF Bites" threads.
That is, the @Polygeekery method of thread naming.
That's just the excuse we need to bring back thread renaming for the people!
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@Dragoon said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Yeah, love that "Continue this thread" takes you to a new page with just that chain in it and you are not even at the right location in that chain most of the time. Why can't it just expand in place, like a sane system would do?
It sometimes does, without even showing the "Continue" link, and it seems to be non-deterministic, even changing in the same thread. I've had it happen where one comment section was expanded up to some number of levels beyond the default 2, then I clicked continue to go deeper in (which is reasonable), and when I went back it had collapsed down to top level + replies with "continue" link.
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@JBert said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@boomzilla said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@cvi said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Either that, or we'll end up with over 9000 "Re: WTF Bites" threads.
That is, the @Polygeekery method of thread naming.
That's just the excuse we need to bring back thread renaming for the people!
Make everyone a mod and trust them to only use the thread renaming powers
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@topspin said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@Benjamin-Hall said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@sockpuppet7 as long as there's a max embedding level. Reading posts that are one character wide is not fun.
It's
worsealmost as bad. 3 replies in you need to click a "continue this discussion" or whatever link and the resulting navigation is completely jarring.There's another forum I read where when you click reply, it scrolls you to the very end of the thread. And no way to go back to the posts you didn't read yet. It also doesn't mark a topic as all read if a thread is moved to a different topic. But the 'read next unread' button on that last post will take you to "there's nothing more to read". Only way to fix it is "mark forum read". But don't click the wrong one, or every post will be marked.
was better than that!
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@cvi said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
(Either that, or we'll end up with over 9000 "Re: WTF Bites" threads.)
Just look in the Lounge at @Polygeekery's threads...
'd by the post right below what I replied too...
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@dcon said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@topspin said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@Benjamin-Hall said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@sockpuppet7 as long as there's a max embedding level. Reading posts that are one character wide is not fun.
It's
worsealmost as bad. 3 replies in you need to click a "continue this discussion" or whatever link and the resulting navigation is completely jarring.There's another forum I read where when you click reply, it scrolls you to the very end of the thread. And no way to go back to the posts you didn't read yet. It also doesn't mark a topic as all read if a thread is moved to a different topic. But the 'read next unread' button on that last post will take you to "there's nothing more to read". Only way to fix it is "mark forum read". But don't click the wrong one, or every post will be marked.
was better than that!
That's the default behavior of disksource. By design. I remember arguing with Jeff about that. It upset him that someone might not be discouraged enough by his software's hostility towards possibly posting a reply before you've read to the end of the thread.
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On a Reddit tangent: it annoys me that, in about a quarter the posts I read, Reddit sees fit to prematurely collapse some random comment-threads (I think based on either low votes, new user, or some other nonsense). I've ended up writing a script that opens all collapsed comment threads on the page. It tepeatedly opens about 5 threads every 10 seconds. (Opening everything tends to bring the browser to a screeching halt.)
Of course, that means that if I collapse a thread, it'll be reopened a few seconds later, so now I've set myself up to collapse a thread, immediately scroll it off the top of the screen, and then scroll back up to read the next thread. But it works well enough for me, so
.
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@boomzilla NodeBB does the same by default, for the record.
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@remi said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
One thing that got lost when Usenet died (yes, I know, not exactly, but we already had that discussion last week or so) was the branching view of discussions.
Let's not forget
alt.binaries.*and all of the wholesome cat pictures that required finding the half-dozen posts to uudecode....In forums now (here and mostly everywhere), you get a linear view from post 1 to N, but the conversation usually goes with several branches. One way to emulate those branches is to create new threads at some point, but you loose the link to the "trunk" from which the branch was created, and you loose the ability to "merge" back the discussion when it comes back to something being discussed in a different thread.
There is one tool we might use, a
hyper link , that could assist in this trunk/branch system. It's convention-driven, but as you can see from the OP of this topic, there's a clear back-link to the parent automatically added by the 
.If you really wanted, a link to the child discussion could referenced with a
hyper link that looks something likeI started a discussion on bringing uuencode/uudecode to the forums
And similar
hyper links to other threads are possible
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@apapadimoulis said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Let's not forget
alt.binaries.*and all of the wholesome cat pictures that required finding the half-dozen posts to uudecode....One of the few rules I see these days for the remaining Usenet hosts is blocking the binaries groups. Seriously, putting stuff on the web or even on p2p just works better.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Which means either mods will have to do lots of work policing proper chaining, (optionally) enforcing strict on-topic rules, at least for certain topics, or there's one kind of garbage replaced by another. No clever automation and self-policing will result into more order.
Attempting to dismantle megatopics can only be done by curtailing off-topic, the only thing to decide is the color of the shed mods will have to live in.You're right, this is a "behavioral" problem that isn't effectively solved with "systems". That's a very engineering-way of looking at it, which is why I think
has issues here (and probably elsewhere). It's the I've calculated that the best way for people to perform is in this manner, and thus I've developed a system helping and enforcing that behavior.Assuming there's no major impediment to changing behaviors (e.g. you had to pay ¥100 per new topic), the easiest and most effective way is to simply change the "culture" by asking nicely, and being transparent. Like this.
Guys, our membership is dwindling and has been on a downward trend for years. We're going to come close to a death spiral soon if we don't reverse course and find new members to replace the ones that have left and are leaving. Analytics show that we're getting plenty of incoming traffic, but no one is converting from a viewer to a lurker. There hasn't been a new member join and post in a month since I've taken over. Really. Having asked some outside folks give UX feedback about the community, and having studied the the data, I believe one major problem is megatopics.
I know they're more convenient to use, but for the sake of helping reverse the downward spiral on the community, can you please try to create new topics? There's a really a lot of interesting stuff being talked about here, I've enjoyed my time here after finally understanding it, but no one except the handful here can experience it because the conversations are buried in megatopics.
As @PleegWat showed by clicking the dots button and replying as a topic, it's not that much more effort. No one's going to "make" you do it, nor do any of us want to volunteer to be mods that jeff topics all day long, but we'd be headed in a much better direction if you could take just a few more seconds out of your day to help the place be more welcoming.
Hopefully this will convince some of you to try it out, and eventually, more will follow.
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@apapadimoulis I've been walking around with an idea for a coding challenge. I really should take some time to write it up and post it.
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@apapadimoulis I have another idea altogether, about the failing recruitment drive. More philosophical (if worth fawk all accordingly). People now lack commitment. It's not always bad thing, some people simply have shit to do. And not always their own fault either. There's a paradox of choice. Why bother with some internets community when you're bombed with all the whatzaps, discords, zooms and twatters, and there's flixnets, tubes of various pronouns (and colors), twitches and stuff. This place is mostly entertainment category.
And this is old community, of eclectic mix of weirdbeards. I appreciate you taking time to understand it. I've been lurking for at least 3 years before the past 2 actively posting, which means - multiply by half, add numbers together, carry the 2 -
11, 5 years. It's either 11 or 5. And I still feel green as #00ff00. Perhaps it's not strictly necessary to understand everything that's going on, but it certainly helps, and it takes a lot of time. And if I wasn't a weirdbeard myself or folks weren't doing this for years out of habit, I really don't have an answer why anybody should really bother. It sounds depressing. Like date handling with ternaries. It really is.Look, I'm no good at leading, suggesting useful things or generally understanding things. I mostly come here to :tro:. I wanted to let the grown-ups talk, but then got tired at the end of the day staring at weird incantations like PtrToStructure and IAsyncResult, and like being quarter past drunk, that's when the floodgates sometimes get loose.
I'm certainly not going to protest changes or stir shit. Maybe complain a bit, if that's alright. I'll go on with the changes. The cause is noble and the approach is almost dizzyingly unorthodox in a sense that you actually talk to people. And I hope the result IsSuccessStatusCode .
Well, as long as infiniscroll doesn't return in a "strongly suggested" capacity. That shit can DIAF.
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@apapadimoulis said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@remi said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
One thing that got lost when Usenet died (yes, I know, not exactly, but we already had that discussion last week or so) was the branching view of discussions.
Let's not forget
alt.binaries.*and all of the wholesome cat pictures that required finding the half-dozen posts to uudecode....Well as I said in the parentheses, we had a bit of discussion about all that recently (in another thread... see, we can use different threads
). My point here wasn't that all was good in Usenet, far from it (and I expanded on that in that other thread), but just that this single specific feature of Usenet basically disappeared in modern forums.There is one tool we might use, a
hyper link , that could assist in this trunk/branch system. It's convention-driven, but as you can see from the OP of this topic, there's a clear back-link to the parent automatically added by the .The issue with branches-in-new-threads is not the missing link, although not having it (in the parent thread) seems like an obvious and easy feature to add. The issue with branches-in-new-threads is that it takes some sort of mental effort to follow a thread and all its subthreads, whereas the Usenet (or Reddit, or even mail since in that regard newsreaders were just mail readers, but I'm keeping with the Usenet reference for the sake of simplicity) way of doing it kept everything under your eye. And again I'm not saying that view was perfect, but that it had some advantages that the current views don't have.
While I'm not overly fond of technical solutions to human problems, this doesn't mean I can't recognise it the other way round, i.e. a technical problem that causes human problems. In this case, I believe the lack of easy threaded view is a technical issue that is in part causing the problem of mega-topics.
Coming back to the issue at hand, typically for "one posts" mega-threads like the Funny stuff, the issue with having a lot of new threads is that it's annoying to click, wait etc. to read each single post. This is not because threads with a single post are inherently bad, this is because the software is actively making it bad (slow and requiring several clicks etc.)!
So this is where a technical solution could help. For example (I'm not suggesting this as the perfect solution, but just giving an example to illustrate what I mean), if you could open the Funny category, and the listing of threads would show the first (or more recent, or whatever) post of each thread rather than just the title (maybe make it as a kind of toggle on the page so you can easily switch between browsing topics / previewing contents). Or, for another example, if while viewing a thread posts that are not in response to another (i.e. "top-level" posts) appeared differently (and maybe even were the only ones shown by default). Or maybe if when you create a new thread as a branch of an old one, the old thread would not only have a link, but would actually have a way to display that full sub-thread embedded into the first one (as a frame or any other way).
Yes, I'm somewhat re-inventing the wheel here, and yes, some of those ideas are just turning the "category" level into the current "(mega-)thread" level, but this could work because mega-threads are not wrong per se but only because they run contrary to humans expectations. So if humans expect to see a category, not a mega-thread, let's give them a category.
The point is that mega-threads in part exist because the technology is actively making it harder to use several threads, so while technology cannot solve problems for us, it can at least avoid creating problems.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
People now lack commitment. It's not always bad thing, some people simply have shit to do. And not always their own fault either. There's a paradox of choice. Why bother with some internets community when you're bombed with all the whatzaps, discords, zooms and twatters, and there's flixnets, tubes of various pronouns (and colors), twitches and stuff. This place is mostly entertainment category.
Oh I love this (philosophical?) topic actually, and I really believe that what you're describing is what a lot of people are feeling. Not everyone, but think about it -- this place would be an oasis for the "weirdbeards" lost in the big-tech, mega-media bullshit. Like just imagine finding yourself on some shitty subreddit about «topics-like-this» and saying, "yup, this is it.".
It's the same reason local coffee shops (the ones that didn't suck, anwyays) got a boost from Starbucks. It's the same reason I frequent the hyper-local places in my town, because not everyone else does, but a lot of people do, and everyone gets the same vibe and experience. And I also go to the chain places too, because sometimes it's nice too.
None of those internet places you described are communities (or real
), I guess you could use them to make a community if you tried hard enough, but you won't have "members" , you'll have "users of the platform" who momentarily pay attention to you, as long as the platform allows, and you generate the platform enough business.And this is old community, of eclectic mix of weirdbeards. I appreciate you taking time to understand it. I've been lurking for at least 3 years before the past 2 actively posting, which means - multiply by half, add numbers together, carry the 2 -
11, 5 years. It's either 11 or 5. And I still feel green as #00ff00. Perhaps it's not strictly necessary to understand everything that's going on, but it certainly helps, and it takes a lot of time.Yes. This. You described this community beautifully, this is not the sort of thing you can't manufacture, and even if you could, there's no profit in it. The members, the nostalgia, all of that makes the place great.
