Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with
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Making throwaway society more efficient by cutting the consumer out of the loop.
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@Watson anyone else wonders whether we'd have reached post-scarcity by now if only Bezos wasn't such an asshole?
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@Gąska Well, we have an economic system that is predicated on scarcity, so it's in that system's best interest to perpetuate it.
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@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@Watson anyone else wonders whether we'd have reached post-scarcity by now if only Bezos wasn't such an asshole?
No. There's plenty of other assholes.
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Having read the article now (I am ), it's stuff that Amazon is storing, and the vendors who own the stuff have decided to stop paying Amazon to store it.
So it's those vendors who decided to sell stuff on razor-thin margins, and then didn't sell – so the vendors are better off dumping the goods than selling them. Of course, Amazon's fierce competition between vendors has nothing to do with how thin the margins are.
In a perfect world, Amazon would do a much better job of donating the stuff where it can be used well (apparently, it does that a little), but since the warehouses are chock-full of things owned by vendors, I'm not going to say that Amazon is responsible for the vendors' failure to predict the market for their goods.
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@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@Watson anyone else wonders whether we'd have reached post-scarcity by now if only Bezos wasn't such an asshole?
Nope. Bezos is asshole, but not-Bezos is not not-asshole. Also, you're an asshole being called an asshole by an asshole on a forum for assholes after having called an asshole an asshole. We can't have nice things.
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@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
post-scarcity
Will never happen.
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@MrL I honestly believe that, with current taxation levels and production volumes, we could easily feed every single American and European for free if we tried. Other goods are trickier though.
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@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
we could easily feed every single American and European for free if we tried
Basic foodstuffs, sure. Fancy food maybe not.
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@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@MrL I honestly believe that, with current taxation levels and production volumes, we could easily feed every single American and European for free if we tried. Other goods are trickier though.
We already feed all Americans and Europeans. Starvations death is practically unheard of.
By that metric we are in post scarcity for a long time already."For free" part is impossible of course. 'Taxes pay for everything' is just communism, which will inevitably collapse and 'guaranteed income' kind of thing is just an unemployment generator, so pretty much the same thing.
Technological progress and wealth accumulation shifts scarcity to new areas, but it will never be eliminated.
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@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@MrL I honestly believe that, with current taxation levels and production volumes, we could easily feed every single American and European for free if we tried. Other goods are trickier though.
Burn the witch.
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@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@Watson anyone else wonders whether we'd have reached post-scarcity by now if only Bezos wasn't such an asshole?
It's Bezos personally being an asshole as much as the banking crisis was caused by bankers' "greed" - not at all. That's not to say he wasn't an asshole or bankers weren't greedy but as insane as it is, within capitalism theirs is perfectly rational economic behavior.
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@MrL said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
'guaranteed income' kind of thing is just an unemployment generator
Technically it's a recast of the tax and benefit systems. (UBI is never set at a high level.)
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@MrL said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@MrL I honestly believe that, with current taxation levels and production volumes, we could easily feed every single American and European for free if we tried. Other goods are trickier though.
We already feed all Americans and Europeans.
But we have to pay for it. I was talking about feeding for free. Like schools and colleges are free.
By that metric we are in post scarcity for a long time already.
What other metric matters? If there are enough resources in circulation to meet everybody needs, then the only reason they're not met is suboptimal distribution.
"For free" part is impossible of course. 'Taxes pay for everything' is just communism, which will inevitably collapse and 'guaranteed income' kind of thing is just an unemployment generator, so pretty much the same thing.
Did free college collapse anything yet?
Technological progress and wealth accumulation shifts scarcity to new areas, but it will never be eliminated.
And I'm fine with that. But in the areas that, by your own admission, aren't scarce anymore, why do we still have to pay for shit, and why couldn't it be so we don't?
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@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
Like schools and colleges are free.
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@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
we could easily feed every single American and European for free
May as well put farming subsidies to use. Although I suspect this plan will go tits up once the organic and gluten free lot get involved.
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@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
But we have to pay for it. I was talking about feeding for free. Like schools and colleges are free.
They are not and never will be.
If there are enough resources in circulation to meet everybody needs
There's not enough and never will be.
the only reason they're not met is suboptimal distribution.
No.
Did free college collapse anything yet?
Anything as in education level?
And I'm fine with that. But in the areas that, by your own admission, aren't scarce anymore, why do we still have to pay for shit, and why couldn't it be so we don't?
Because those resources are not free. Things are free only in fairy tales.
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@dkf said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@MrL said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
'guaranteed income' kind of thing is just an unemployment generator
Technically it's a recast of the tax and benefit systems. (UBI is never set at a high level.)
Never meaning few experiments that failed?
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@MrL said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
But we have to pay for it. I was talking about feeding for free. Like schools and colleges are free.
They are not and never will be.
They are where I live.
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@topspin said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
They are where I live.
MrL presumably meant that they're being paid for somehow (i.e. taxes etc). However, Gąska did specify what kind of "free" he meant originally, namely
the taxpeyers-pay-for-everything kind of free
So, yes, they are free in quite a few places. (In some cases more than just "free", e.g., where kids get lunch from the school, there's one less meal for the family to worry about.)
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@MrL said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
Anything as in education level?
It's not like "paid" colleges/universities aren't easily keeping up with that particular decline (and arguably some are spearheading it).
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@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@MrL said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@MrL I honestly believe that, with current taxation levels and production volumes, we could easily feed every single American and European for free if we tried. Other goods are trickier though.
We already feed all Americans and Europeans.
But we have to pay for it. I was talking about feeding for free.
Yes, we have to pay for it... and anyone who don't have money to pay will get those money. So, in effect, we already have this system. Of course, there are people who spend wellfare money on non-food, but those people obviously have serious mental issues and will get free treatment with free food and accommodation included.
Of course, we could "cut the middle man" and provide the food directly... but that is actually a terrible, terrible idea; any such a system is by a few orders of magnitude worse than existing mostly-free market. This is the main difference to your examples: The education market is, in most countries, completely broken in many different ways and nobody knows how to fix it. Healthcare might be better... or worse, it depends.
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@MrL said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
Did free college collapse anything yet?
Anything as in education level?
Are you worried food will become devalued and people will eat more than they need, or what?
And I'm fine with that. But in the areas that, by your own admission, aren't scarce anymore, why do we still have to pay for shit, and why couldn't it be so we don't?
Because those resources are not free. Things are free only in fairy tales.
You know what else isn't free? City roads. You know what I never have to worry about access to no matter how poor I am? City roads. Why city roads can be 100% tax-funded and food cannot?
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@MrL also, I'd like to remind you that the time before "collapse" of education was the time when education was even more centralized, nationalized and "free of charge" than today, under the so-called communist regime. It was after 1989 that the education quality started going down.
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@MrL said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@dkf said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@MrL said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
'guaranteed income' kind of thing is just an unemployment generator
Technically it's a recast of the tax and benefit systems. (UBI is never set at a high level.)
Never meaning few experiments that failed?
AFAIK all UBI experiments done so far were successful. They didn't make sense and didn't scale and didn't actually test what they were claiming to test, but as far as results are concerned, all had positive effects. And if you know of any that failed, I'd appreciate a link.
And re: unemployment generator. So some people decided to stop working shitty jobs because they can afford basic subsistence on welfare alone. So what?
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@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
Why city roads can be 100% tax-funded and food cannot?
Short answer: They're totally different kinds of things, is why.
Also, food is not food is not food. @dkf obliquely approached this with his comment about fancy food. But there would still be food scarcity, even though, as you've noted, there's no shortage of calories.
Now, imagine that the food you get is as high quality as city roads.
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@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@MrL said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@dkf said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@MrL said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
'guaranteed income' kind of thing is just an unemployment generator
Technically it's a recast of the tax and benefit systems. (UBI is never set at a high level.)
Never meaning few experiments that failed?
AFAIK all UBI experiments done so far were successful. They didn't make sense and didn't scale and didn't actually test what they were claiming to test, but as far as results are concerned, all had positive effects. And if you know of any that failed, I'd appreciate a link.
And re: unemployment generator. So some people decided to stop working shitty jobs because they can afford basic subsistence on welfare alone. So what?
So it makes life overall worse. It's happening right now in many places in America with expanded unemployment benefits. And that's not even considering the long term effects of creating people who can't even imagine working.
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@boomzilla said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
Now, imagine that the food you get is as high quality as city roads.
For most US people it already is, and not because of lack of alternative. And yes, I do take into account US city roads are vastly inferior to European city roads (seriously, if Chicago was in Poland, then ITD would close up the whole road network until they fix their shit.)
McDonald's is world's largest restaurant chain for a reason.
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@dkf said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
we could easily feed every single American and European for free if we tried
Basic foodstuffs, sure. Fancy food maybe not.
I require food less fancy than that of the clade I resent and more fancy than that of the clade I despise, mind. And if left alone with the boat, I'll eat it.
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@DogsB said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
we could easily feed every single American and European for free
May as well put farming subsidies to use. Although I suspect this plan will go tits up once the organic and gluten free lot get involved.
There's splits in that lot, between small v large, also between sincere v cynical
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@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@boomzilla said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
Now, imagine that the food you get is as high quality as city roads.
For most US people it already is, and not because of lack of alternative.
False.
And yes, I do take into account US city roads or vastly inferior to European city roads (seriously, if Chicago was in Poland, then ITD would close up the whole road network until they fix their shit.)
McDonald's is world's largest restaurant chain for a reason.
And is far superior to the food you'd get in your scheme.
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@boomzilla this scheme doesn't even exist and yet you know exactly how it would work, down to what food will be available. And you say you're not clairvoyant.
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@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@boomzilla this scheme doesn't even exist and yet you know exactly how it would work, down to what food will be available. And you say you're not clairvoyant.
Correct. I don't know what food, exactly, will be available, but since you've described a centrally planned menu, it will suck and most people will hate it, unless they have enough power to keep the good stuff for themselves.
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@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
I do take into account US city roads
orare vastly inferior to some European city roadsFTF
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@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@MrL also, I'd like to remind you that the time before "collapse" of education was the time when education was even more centralized, nationalized and "free of charge" than today, under the so-called communist regime. It was after 1989 that the education quality started going down.
Oh, that must be why we were a superpower before 1989 and are not now. I never could figure that out.
AFAIK all UBI experiments done so far were successful. They didn't make sense and didn't scale and didn't actually test what they were claiming to test, but as far as results are concerned, all had positive effects. And if you know of any that failed, I'd appreciate a link.
AFAIR the 'success' of those experiments was that people that were given free money reported that they liked it.
And re: unemployment generator. So some people decided to stop working shitty jobs because they can afford basic subsistence on welfare alone. So what?
So it will escalate, bringing down quality of services, prices up and creating a class of professionally unemployed (or rather enlarging it).
And of course initially set UBI will not be enough for long.UBI is appallingly bad and destructive idea.
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@boomzilla said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@boomzilla this scheme doesn't even exist and yet you know exactly how it would work, down to what food will be available. And you say you're not clairvoyant.
Correct. I don't know what food, exactly, will be available, but since you've described a centrally planned menu, it will suck and most people will hate it, unless they have enough power to keep the good stuff for themselves.
History of school lunches shows otherwise. They always suck, but sometimes they suck much less. It was actually almost decent in years 2011-2018, even in the poorest of Chicago school districts (and you won't find many places in USA worse than poorest Chicago school districts).
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@boomzilla said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@boomzilla said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
Now, imagine that the food you get is as high quality as city roads.
For most US people it already is, and not because of lack of alternative.
False.
And yes, I do take into account US city roads or vastly inferior to European city roads (seriously, if Chicago was in Poland, then ITD would close up the whole road network until they fix their shit.)
McDonald's is world's largest restaurant chain for a reason.
And is far superior to the food you'd get in your scheme.
Comparison failure; incompatible types.
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@MrL said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@MrL also, I'd like to remind you that the time before "collapse" of education was the time when education was even more centralized, nationalized and "free of charge" than today, under the so-called communist regime. It was after 1989 that the education quality started going down.
Oh, that must be why we were a superpower before 1989 and are not now. I never could figure that out.
AFAIK all UBI experiments done so far were successful. They didn't make sense and didn't scale and didn't actually test what they were claiming to test, but as far as results are concerned, all had positive effects. And if you know of any that failed, I'd appreciate a link.
AFAIR the 'success' of those experiments was that people that were given free money reported that they liked it.
And re: unemployment generator. So some people decided to stop working shitty jobs because they can afford basic subsistence on welfare alone. So what?
So it will escalate, bringing down quality of services, prices up and creating a class of professionally unemployed (or rather enlarging it).
And of course initially set UBI will not be enough for long.UBI is appallingly bad and destructive idea.
Tbf anything Poland does turns out that way.
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@Gribnit said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
I require food less fancy than that of the clade I resent and more fancy than that of the clade I despise
I'm in this
picturerambling, and I don't like it.
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@topspin if you don't like it then don't eat it.
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@boomzilla said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
but since you've described a centrally planned menu,
To be fair, I don't think there was mention of a centrally planned menu, just that it would be "free". Why not a setup where one gets vouchers that can be used to get a meal at a place of choice? Those would ostensibly still compete with each other for customers...
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@Gąska said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@topspin if you don't like it then don't eat it.
If you like your food, you can keep your food.
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@cvi said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@boomzilla said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
but since you've described a centrally planned menu,
To be fair, I don't think there was mention of a centrally planned menu, just that it would be "free". Why not a setup where one gets vouchers that can be used to get a meal at a place of choice? Those would ostensibly still compete with each other for customers...
Switching sides for a second:
We already have such vouchers, they're called money.
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@boomzilla said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
Now, imagine that the food you get is as high quality as city roads.
<looks around at the roads> Fuck, we'll die of starvation.
edit: <googles> From 2017:
California has not increased the base excise tax on gasoline in 23 years. The result is a backlog of some $130 billion in road, highway and bridge repairs throughout California and not enough money to fix the structures, according to Gov. Jerry Brown.
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@cvi said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@boomzilla said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
but since you've described a centrally planned menu,
To be fair, I don't think there was mention of a centrally planned menu, just that it would be "free". Why not a setup where one gets vouchers that can be used to get a meal at a place of choice? Those would ostensibly still compete with each other for customers...
Centrally planned in the sense of what quantities of which food would be produced / procured. Not to mention all of the other perverse incentives that come along with such things.
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@boomzilla said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@cvi said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@boomzilla said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
but since you've described a centrally planned menu,
To be fair, I don't think there was mention of a centrally planned menu, just that it would be "free". Why not a setup where one gets vouchers that can be used to get a meal at a place of choice? Those would ostensibly still compete with each other for customers...
Centrally planned in the sense of what quantities of which food would be produced / procured. Not to mention all of the other perverse incentives that come along with such things.
And why would it need to be a "menu" as such? Just arrange for weekly/bi-weekly deliveries of a bunch of vegetables, some varied meats, etc. and the people can make what they want with them.
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@boomzilla said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@cvi said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@boomzilla said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
but since you've described a centrally planned menu,
To be fair, I don't think there was mention of a centrally planned menu, just that it would be "free". Why not a setup where one gets vouchers that can be used to get a meal at a place of choice? Those would ostensibly still compete with each other for customers...
Centrally planned in the sense of what quantities of which food would be produced / procured. Not to mention all of the other perverse incentives that come along with such things.
These all summarize under "why do you hate ice cream", if you're looking for something baffling to shout at a student-type commie. This does not work on actual Wobblies but you will never encounter one.
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@e4tmyl33t said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@boomzilla said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@cvi said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
@boomzilla said in Amazon has more stuff than it knows what to do with:
but since you've described a centrally planned menu,
To be fair, I don't think there was mention of a centrally planned menu, just that it would be "free". Why not a setup where one gets vouchers that can be used to get a meal at a place of choice? Those would ostensibly still compete with each other for customers...
Centrally planned in the sense of what quantities of which food would be produced / procured. Not to mention all of the other perverse incentives that come along with such things.
And why would it need to be a "menu" as such? Just arrange for weekly/bi-weekly deliveries of a bunch of vegetables, some varied meats, etc. and the people can make what they want with them.
Yes, that "bunch of vegetables, some varied meats, etc." That's exactly what I'm talking about. Someone has to pick which ones to send where.