Fight about discourse here
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This topic is where you guys should argue about dicsource vs nodebb now.
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@pie_flavor said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@anotherusername You missed the part where he literally said something close to that in the first post. He thanked you guys for the quality bug reports which seriously improved Discourse, but at the end just couldn't handle the toxicity. Remember, not all developers enjoy toxicity, but since all the ones here do, it's easy to forget that.
Yeah, okay. But there's "toxicity", and then there's toxicity.
One thing about TDWTF is that when we find a particular stupid bug, we don't pull any punches about how stupid it is. That's definitely part of the culture here -- the site is basically structured around pointing and laughing at stupid code.
To @julianlam's credit, he's been pretty open and apologetic about stupid bugs that we've discovered, and he's basically admitted it when they were caused by stupid coding mistakes. Jeff saw the same sort of bug reports as... well, accusations of stupidity. And he couldn't handle it. That, combined with the fact that a lot of things about Discourse were needlessly and stupidly complicated, made for a tense relationship between him and TDWTF.
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@boomzilla said in Fight about discourse here:
This topic is where you guys should argue about dicsource vs nodebb now.
But I don't want any of that, I just want to SING ...
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@scholrlea Topics are still free. Song of the day is
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@anotherusername said in Fight about discourse here:
Yeah, okay. But there's "toxicity", and then there's toxicity.
One thing about TDWTF is that when we find a particular stupid bug, we don't pull any punches about how stupid it is. That's definitely part of the culture here -- the site is basically structured around pointing and laughing at stupid code.
Been here a long time and "toxic" has never come to mind as a description.
@lorne-kates said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
He equates bugs with criticism, and equates criticism with personal attacks.
Therefore any bug report is a personal attack on him.
So he responds to bug reports in the same way one respond to personal attacks. Well, in the same way an egotistical douche respond to personal attacks... temper tantrums, name calling, memes and taking his ball home.That sums it up perfectly.
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@polygeekery said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
Paging @pie_flavor, you want to see how Atwood addresses people ...
Fwiw, the tipping point for me is when shitwood did this to Ben. He took a junior dev (who was already showing promise and talent)... a dev who was doing free work to write plugins and patches for douchewood's for-profit platform... and publicly rebuked and insulted him because douchewood didn't like how a feature LOOKED. Not how it functioned... how it looked.
What a great message to send directly to the next generation of programmers. Destroy their morale, teach them nothing they do well be valued, and discourage then from ever trying anything.
Fuck Atwood
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Side note: posting here now, only saw the Jeff after posting before end of thread
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@lorne-kates Source?
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@lorne-kates said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@pie_flavor said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@polygeekery I'm missing what part of that is rude. Everything he said was correct.
"Hello fellow not-Discodevs" said the obvious Discodev.
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@pie_flavor said in Fight about discourse here:
@lorne-kates Source?
Yeah I didn't follow that connection either. What did do to Ben?
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@boomzilla said in Fight about discourse here:
@scholrlea Topics are still free. Song of the day is
Aww, and here I was expecting to hear about NodeBB's huge tracts of land...
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@anotherusername said in Fight about discourse here:
Yeah I didn't follow that connection either. What did do to Ben?
Now that @Lorne-Kates mentions it, I remember that; it had to do with nested quotes, which Discourse didn't originally support at all. Ben made an effort to add some support and I do remember Jeff being really shitty about it.
Edit found it: https://what.thedailywtf.com/post/266256
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@heterodox oh! Yeah, now that you remind me, I do remember Jeff being categorically opposed to nested quotes on religious grounds or something like that.
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@pie_flavor said in Fight about discourse here:
@lorne-kates Source?
Fuck you, use the search feature.
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"[meme]", replied the Discodev.
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@lorne-kates Are we just going to go around in circles? This has degenerated into petulant name-calling? Somehow I expected something slightly better. Not sure why, but I did.
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@pie_flavor said in Fight about discourse here:
This has degenerated into petulant name-calling?
It did that long before Jeff Jr signed up for this forum and started trying to pitch Jeff Sr's products to people who don't want to give them yet another chance.
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@heterodox said in Fight about discourse here:
Edit found it: https://what.thedailywtf.com/post/266256
@end said in Genuinely Useful Bug Reports:
Yeah the nested quotes thing is really hideous. I need to revert that commit, sorry @ben_lubar, this is an atrocity:
I still can't understand what was going on in his head about nested quotes. That doesn't look like an atrocity to me, it looks like a normal forum quote, apart from the different levels lacking slightly darker background colors.
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@anonymous234 said in Fight about discourse here:
I still can't understand what was going on in his head about nested quotes. That doesn't look like an atrocity to me
NIH syndrome, if I had to guess.
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@anotherusername said in Fight about discourse here:
One thing about TDWTF is that when we find a particular stupid bug, we don't pull any punches about how stupid it is. That's definitely part of the culture here -- the site is basically structured around pointing and laughing at stupid code.
We are also not afraid to admit that all code has stupid bugs. Including our own. Confessions thread is
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@pleegwat said in Fight about discourse here:
@anotherusername said in Fight about discourse here:
One thing about TDWTF is that when we find a particular stupid bug, we don't pull any punches about how stupid it is. That's definitely part of the culture here -- the site is basically structured around pointing and laughing at stupid code.
We are also not afraid to admit that all code has stupid bugs. Including our own. Confessions thread is
Yeah. We have, uh, "certain" users who tend to report bugs like: "look at this buggy shit, who designed this garbage". It's about two steps below what you'd consider "unprofessional" in your day job, because we partly come here to blow off steam, and say things we wish we could say about buggy software at our day jobs. Julian realizes that it's (mostly!) schtick and he corrects the issue. Jeff took it personally and eventually his sensitive personality just couldn't take any more of it.
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@anotherusername said in Fight about discourse here:
Yeah. We have, uh, "certain" users who tend to report bugs like: "look at this buggy shit, who designed this garbage". It's about two steps below what you'd consider "unprofessional" in your day job, because we partly come here to blow off steam, and say things we wish we could say about buggy software at our day jobs.
Those are confined to here. Reports at official bug trackers or forums are not like that.
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@boomzilla I suspect that violent agreement is at work here, but I could be wrong.
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@scholrlea Probably. I was just clarifying a bit, not really disagreeing.
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@scholrlea said in Fight about discourse here:
@boomzilla I suspect that violent agreement is at work here, but I could be wrong.
Jeff was hanging out here, so he got the bug reports raw, unfiltered, and straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.
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@boomzilla said in Fight about discourse here:
Reports at official bug trackers or forums are not like that.
Again a situation Jeff created for himself by not seperating bugs and their discussion, and even trying to use this forum as his tracker.
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@anotherusername said in Fight about discourse here:
@scholrlea said in Fight about discourse here:
@boomzilla I suspect that violent agreement is at work here, but I could be wrong.
Jeff was hanging out here, so he got the bug reports raw, unfiltered, and straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.
Not towards the end.
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@boomzilla said in Fight about discourse here:
Not towards the end.
Well to continue the analogy, he possibly got what went into the horse's mouth.
Eventually. Towards the end.
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@pjh I think he proved himself to be a horse's end
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@boomzilla said in Fight about discourse here:
@anotherusername said in Fight about discourse here:
@scholrlea said in Fight about discourse here:
@boomzilla I suspect that violent agreement is at work here, but I could be wrong.
Jeff was hanging out here, so he got the bug reports raw, unfiltered, and straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.
Not towards the end.
@pjh said in Fight about discourse here:
@boomzilla said in Fight about discourse here:
Not towards the end.
Well to continue the analogy, he possibly got what went into the horse's mouth.
Eventually. Towards the end.
@hungrier said in Fight about discourse here:
@pjh I think he proved himself to be a horse's end
Guys, if you're going to talk about @end, why not just @-mention him?
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@ben_lubar said in Fight about discourse here:
Guys, if you're going to talk about @end, why not just @-mention him?
Maybe I don't want to @mention him.
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@luhmann said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@pie_flavor
How can you state that? You where not around when we where on Discourse. It. Was. Slow.Right. But I use Discourse every day, and it's much faster than this shit.
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@pie_flavor said in Fight about discourse here:
I use Discourse every day
Well, yeah, you are forced to dog food it by Jeff.
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@polygeekery said in Fight about discourse here:
@pie_flavor said in Fight about discourse here:
I use Discourse every day
Well, yeah, you are forced to dog food it by Jeff.
No.
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@pie_flavor said in Fight about discourse here:
@lorne-kates Are we just going to go around in circles? This has degenerated into petulant name-calling? Somehow I expected something slightly better. Not sure why, but I did.
"[insult a user of the forum]", said the Discodev
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@pie_flavor said in Fight about discourse here:
Right. But I use Discourse every day, and it's much faster than this shit.
"[Lying about Discourse's performance, ignoring the performance of literally every forum and all evidence and, really, all of reality", said the Discodev.
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@pie_flavor said in Fight about discourse here:
@luhmann said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@pie_flavor
How can you state that? You where not around when we where on Discourse. It. Was. Slow.Right. But I use Discourse every day, and it's much faster than this shit.
I don't recall TDWTF Discourse ever being anything near as fast as what we have today.
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@pjh said in Fight about discourse here:
Well to continue the analogy,
That seems to be one car analogy I didn't get
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@pie_flavor said in Fight about discourse here:
But I use Discourse every day
Hey my race horse is faster then your lada so all horses are faster then all cars.
in what world does that makes sense. I am talking about this forum under Discourse on hardware and in a setup approved by Jeff did not run, at all.
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@ben_lubar said in Fight about discourse here:
@boomzilla said in Fight about discourse here:
@anotherusername said in Fight about discourse here:
@scholrlea said in Fight about discourse here:
@boomzilla I suspect that violent agreement is at work here, but I could be wrong.
Jeff was hanging out here, so he got the bug reports raw, unfiltered, and straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.
Not towards the end.
@pjh said in Fight about discourse here:
@boomzilla said in Fight about discourse here:
Not towards the end.
Well to continue the analogy, he possibly got what went into the horse's mouth.
Eventually. Towards the end.
@hungrier said in Fight about discourse here:
@pjh I think he proved himself to be a horse's end
Guys, if you're going to talk about @end, why not just @-mention him?
He's banned. Mentioning him doesn't do anything that not mentioning him doesn't.
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@lorne-kates said in Fight about discourse here:
@pie_flavor said in Fight about discourse here:
Right. But I use Discourse every day, and it's much faster than this shit.
"[Lying about Discourse's performance, ignoring the performance of literally every forum and all evidence and, really, all of reality", said the Discodev.
Which forums and which evidence?
@lorne-kates said in Fight about discourse here:
@pie_flavor said in Fight about discourse here:
@lorne-kates Are we just going to go around in circles? This has degenerated into petulant name-calling? Somehow I expected something slightly better. Not sure why, but I did.
"[insult a user of the forum]", said the Discodev
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"[Continues to play ignorant about obvious facts, and just downvotes things that question his world view", said the Discodev.
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Apropos of nothing, the SomethingAwful forums are some of the speediest I've ever seen. Even with 10+ years of archives, and millions of posts, and thousands of concurrently active users:
Page loads in < 0.5 second:
Same performance for navigating, paging (fuck your 'toxic hellstew of paging' bullshit), etc.
From what I understand, it's vBulletin with a bunch of customized code, on a Cloudflare.
e: also, when I write a message and hit POST, it's posted and back to the thread in < 1 second.
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Summary of this thread so far: "Anecdote!" "Yeah, well I don't believe your anecdote because anecdote!"
@pie_flavor, I actually have no trouble believing that Discourse works fine for you on a forum with 7.1k topics, 122k posts, and 10.5k users. Admins have posted our dashboard stats before, I can't find them at the moment (maybe we can get an update?), but I seem to recall our numbers being somewhat greater than that. Discourse did not scale gracefully for us at the time we were using it. I suspect a lot of the technical problems we saw and you do not stem from that difference.
Moreover, Discourse is probably easy to get used to if you start with it as your first platform (as a number of other communities have, and I'm sure they're perfectly happy with it). We were migrating from another platform and we expected similar functionality; instead, we were faced with many changes we didn't expect. Maybe we should have, given the age of CS, but there was not adequate preparation for the transition and it was not handled by the community leaders we know and trust. It was handled by an outside figure who appeared to be trying to shove a mandatory paradigm shift down everyone's throats. We didn't understand why the reins appeared to have been handed over to someone new, we felt betrayed, and this feeling was only made worse when the new member started moderating our community rather than providing platform support.
When we asked for things we were used to like pagination, we were told it's never going to happen. These things will never even be an option because they don't fit in with the "vision" for the platform. If we asked for them here, we got disparaging replies, if we asked for them on Meta, we got banned. It didn't feel like a community anymore because no one seemed to have a voice in its direction. When I look at those old threads about Discourse, I see a lot of members who eventually got so frustrated they left. That makes me really sad.
I don't think anyone's claiming NodeBB is sunshine and rainbows. It has bugs, including some freaking annoying ones. But WTDWTF fits within this development community, it seems to have a voice, and bugs are actually getting fixed. I said earlier that Discourse didn't scale well at the time we were using it. It's (theoretically) possible every technical problem with Discourse has been fixed by now. If so, we still wouldn't use it. The sociological problems are still there; our community is still as bad a fit for theirs as theirs is for us.
So if you have problems with NodeBB, you should say so; it's possible this may result in them being fixed given the cooperation between development communities I noted above. If you think it's slow, you can try to help us find the bottlenecks. If you want to, you can even call NodeBB trash software, call its developers lazy... we've seen that all before. But if you compare it to Discourse at every opportunity, you should not be surprised if people lash out, engage in "name-calling" as you referred to it earlier, etc... because all you're doing is bringing up bad memories of conflict within our community.
Just my two cents.
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@heterodox said in Fight about discourse here:
Just my two cents.
Wow, what a load of unmitigated ass-pulling bullshit.
...
hang on, no, wait I mean the opposite of that. I've been here too long to remember what that's called, though.
{clicks upvote}
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@lorne-kates said in Fight about discourse here:
Apropos of nothing, the SomethingAwful forums are some of the speediest I've ever seen.
But you see that forum wasn't designed for the next 10 years and it also has paging and probably nested quotes so the discourse there is super uncivilized. Why would you even want anything like that?
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@heterodox said in Fight about discourse here:
But if you compare it to Discourse at every opportunity, you should not be surprised if people lash out, engage in "name-calling" as you referred to it earlier, etc... because all you're doing is bringing up bad memories of conflict within our community.
Bad memories? That was the funniest this forum ever was. The bugs, the memes about jeff and the bugs, blakey and lorne's epic rants, topic name trolling, etc.
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@sockpuppet7 said in Fight about discourse here:
topic name trolling
I have to admit, I do miss that.
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@heterodox Thank you for giving me a break from the Lorneposting (which was what I called name-calling; regular old name-calling is WTDWTF's bread and butter). FWIW, I don't think I've ever made a post on meta.d. I forget why I created my account, but it only hit TL1 when I did so intentionally so I could DM Jeff. I have never been a part of 'their community'; their software simply powers the forums I use, and Jeff certainly doesn't have an account there. We're still a bunch of devs; if there were any bugs, we'd go yell about them or PR fixes. I am not sure why precisely it is necessary for WTDWTF to have such a tight relationship with the maintainer of their forum software.
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@pie_flavor said in Fight about discourse here:
I am not sure why precisely it is necessary for WTDWTF to have such a tight relationship with the maintainer of their forum software.
because we will always hate it and yell at them to fix it