United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why
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@Rhywden If you start taking into account whether someone's a doctor or not before you decide if it's OK to bump them off a flight, you're going to be on a very slippery slope.
Just make it demonstrably random.
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@Polygeekery From the US Department of Transportation's official site:
If the substitute transportation is scheduled to get you to your destination more than two hours later (four hours internationally), or if the airline does not make any substitute travel arrangements for you, the compensation doubles (400% of your one-way fare, $1350 maximum).
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
(When's the last time you saw a $200 commercial airline ticket?)
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
That is contract law. They offered to pay the penalty.
No they didn't. The required penalty was significantly higher than what they offered to pay.
The required penalty was significantly higher than what they offered to pay if someone volunteered. They wouldn't offer the full compensation to a volunteer; if they have to offer the full compensation, they'll select who they want to bump (based partly... or perhaps mainly... on who will be the cheapest for them to bump, which depends both on how much the passenger's ticket cost, and on how long they will be delayed if they're bumped).
I don't know what they gave the people they involuntarily bumped, but I assume it's the amount they were legally required to give them, not the amount they offered to the volunteers, before they had to involuntarily bump anyone. The amount offered to volunteers is less. There's no "required" amount for volunteers; it's only required if they involuntarily bump someone.
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@hungrier I saw tickets for $100 (already converted to USD) this year. And overbooking isn't allowed here, you get a numbered seat on your ticket.
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@anotherusername They failed to offer what they were required to; is it any wonder no one wanted to volunteer?
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Under Department of Transportation rules, the compensation you're entitled to for being involuntarily bumped from a flight varies by the extent of the delay:
- If the airline can make alternate arrangements that get you to your final destination within one hour of your original arrival time, no compensation is required.
- Between one to two hours of your original arrival time on domestic flights, or one to four hours on international flights: 200 percent of your one-way fare, up to a maximum $675.
- More than two hours later than your original arrival time on domestic flights, or more than four hours late on international flights: 400 percent of your one-way fare, up to a maximum $1,350.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
In any event, this point is largely moot, because neither employee transportation nor oversold situations is listed as among the reasons that a passenger may be refused transport.
Huh I missed that the first time I read this. In any case, it's wrong. The person who wrote that specifically mentioned Rule 25 from UA's contract of carriage, and here's how that rule starts:
RULE 25 DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION
A. Denied Boarding (U.S.A./Canadian Flight Origin) - When there is an Oversold UA flight that originates in the U.S.A. or Canada, the following provisions apply:Strange that the very first line uses the word "oversold," and yet the blogger that you quoted can't seem to find it. In fact, Rule 25 uses the word "oversold" an even dozen times. So pardon me if I don't trust a word that this blogger you quoted says when he can't even figure out how Rule 25 applies to oversold flights.
@anotherusername said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
In any event, this point is largely moot, because neither employee transportation nor oversold situations is listed as among the reasons that a passenger may be refused transport.
...which just proves that whoever wrote it is full of , because passengers can and are refused transport for oversold situations. It's just defined and detailed in a different section of their contract of carriage.
It isn't even in a different section, it's right in the part he referenced! This blogger is just full of .
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@abarker That's not what he said. He points out, as you do, that the provision applies to oversold flights, but this flight wasn't actually oversold. (They were trying to fly employees around who they added at the last minute, not paying passengers.) Therefore, oversold flight rules don't apply.
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@abarker said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
I don't trust a word
This episode is all fake news. The footage is from a terrorist being removed from a plane while screaming allah akbar
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
That's not what he said
What isn't what he said? I quoted him exactly. He said:
In any event, this point is largely moot, because neither employee transportation nor oversold situations is listed as among the reasons that a passenger may be refused transport.
How is that not saying, "United's contract does not allow them to deny you a seat due to overselling"? If he's referring to the difference between rules 21 and 25, then sure, he has a point. But then, he's making a point that doesn't matter because rule 21 doesn't apply in this case. Rule 21 essentially specifies guidelines that passengers must follow. If a passenger doesn't follow those guidelines, then UA will refuse to transport them at all and is not liable to provide any compensation, though the passenger may be eligible for refund. That is not what happened in this case. This is a Rule 25 situation. The passenger was told that they were being required to involuntarily surrender their seat to make room for a UA employee, and I bet that UA attempted to provide compensation to the passenger as per the guidelines in Rule 25 as well as federal guidelines.
@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Therefore, oversold flight rules don't apply.
4 seats were needed to transport UA employees. Therefore, 4 seats were not available for sale. Since the plane was full, that means that the flight was oversold by 4 seats. You may not like, and it certainly could have been handled by the UA employees on the scene, but those are the facts of the situation. The flight was oversold by 4 seats.
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@abarker Did you read the whole article or are you just taking snippets out of context?
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@abarker That's not what he said. He points out, as you do, that the provision applies to oversold flights, but this flight wasn't actually oversold. (They were trying to fly employees around who they added at the last minute, not paying passengers.) Therefore, oversold flight rules don't apply.
They had more paying passengers than they had seats available for those passengers. Therefore, it was an oversold flight.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@anotherusername They failed to offer what they were required to; is it any wonder no one wanted to volunteer?
Really? I mean... fuck. When I go to a store for a sale item and they're like "sorry, we just ran out", I feel like I'm doing a good job of standing up for myself if I get them to give me a rain check, so I can purchase it for the sale price after they have more in stock.
Airlines have to refund double, minimum, and then they have to give you the ticket for free...
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@abarker Did you read the whole article or are you just taking snippets out of context?
Yeah, you caught me. I only read that one sentence, smack dab in the middle of the
articleblog post.The thing is, the sentence I quoted is probably referring to Rule 21, which doesn't apply at all because …
Screw it, I'll just quote what I already said:
@abarker said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Rule 21 essentially specifies guidelines that passengers must follow. If a passenger doesn't follow those guidelines, then UA will refuse to transport them at all and is not liable to provide any compensation, though the passenger may be eligible for refund. That is not what happened in this case. This is a Rule 25 situation[, refusal of boarding due to overselling of the flight].
@abarker said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
4 seats were needed to transport UA employees. Therefore, 4 seats were not available for sale. Since the plane was full, that means that the flight was oversold by 4 seats. You may not like, and it certainly could have been handled by the UA employees on the scene, but those are the facts of the situation. The flight was oversold by 4 seats.
Now, the blog claims that passenger was already boarded because he was already in his seat, but even in the comments on that blog post, there was an argument about the legal definition of "boarding," indicating that boarding might not be complete until after all airplane doors are closed, at which time the plane is considered "in flight." If that is true, then the passenger was not legally boarded at the time he was asked to give up his seat, and Rule 25 was correctly applied.
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I haven't flown for a while now, but I used to fly quite a bit for business.
If you don't hate all airlines, you aren't paying attention.
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@asdf said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@dkf said in Internet of shit:
I would agree, except that United seem to have gone for the jackpot.
I'm still wondering how anyone could have possibly had a good opinion of United before this incident. In my experience, they have been as customer-hostile as humanly possible for years.
I've flown them a lot and never had a problem. But I also like Verizon and Budweiser.
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@Rhywden said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
The condition of the guy after being forcibly removed, with him being dragged down the lane like a sack of potatoes. Such images also don't go down well with the public. Plus for the guy.
Totally disagree. This makes him look insane. I mean the optics for United and CPD are pretty bad, but with just a little bit of thought it's obvious that he acted with terrible judgement.
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@anonymous234 said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Rhywden If you start taking into account whether someone's a doctor or not before you decide if it's OK to bump them off a flight, you're going to be on a very slippery slope.
Especially in this case. The guy was just barely a doctor.
Indicted in 2003 by a grand jury for criminal acts of trafficking in a controlled substance, obtaining drugs by fraud and deceit, and unauthorized prescribing, dispensing, or administering of controlled substences.
2005 lost his medical license.
2007 completed a clinical skills assessment, which demonstrated that his knowledge was "outdated and also contained gaps that would not likely be fully explained by his time away from the practice."
Evaluated in 2009, which concluded, "It is the opinion of the assessment team that Dr Dao is not safe to practice medicine at this time."
Assessment in 2014 noted that he demonstrated "significant and broad deficiencies in areas common to primary care," his knowledge of health maintenance was "globally inadequate," and he demonstrated unacceptable knowledge of basic physical examinations and medications.
Given a limited license to practice in 2015.
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@Rhywden said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Rhywden said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Polygeekery Y'know, for all the Ra-Ra-Freedom you guys shout, sometimes you really go in the complete opposite into what we Germans call "Obrigkeitshörigkeit" - slavish obedience to superiors.
are you fucking droning on about now? The only freedom that should be violated here was his freedom once he broke a federal law and caused such a fuss. If not for the fuckhead passenger, this would just be a story of an airline bumping passengers, which would not be a story at all.
Once again: This was wholly UA's doing. The passenger merely contributed. Let's not confuse cause and effect, shall we? After all, it takes two to Tango and someone has to do the first step.
I'm done with your particular slavish obedience.
Alternate facts detected! Why are you covering for government thugs.
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@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Captain said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Fuck United. They don't deserve anybody's business.
Also, Toby Faire, none of the airlines deserve anyone's business. They are all pretty much fetid shit.
Yeah, it really sucks that so many people can afford air travel.
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The truly important thing is "What do Weng's Racist Homophobic Militant Dickweed Coworkers think about it?"
The consensus is that aircrews are within their rights to kill any passenger at any time for any reason under castle doctrine.
One of them, however, is completely appalled at the concept of passengers being bumped for any reason. He's the only one that's ever traveled beyond 2 day's driving distance from here (though that was in the Navy).
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@Weng said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
One of them, however, is completely appalled at the concept of passengers being bumped for any reason.
I'm essentially in this camp. Reasonable exceptions should exist (plane unable to fly, passenger is being dangerous, etc.) but the default principle should be that the passenger has a right of ownership to that which has been sold to him, and that for an airline, just like with anyone else, selling something you do not actually possess constitutes fraud.
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I really didn't expect a cheap throwaway joke to cause so much discussion.
The point is, whatever the legalities, this is backfiring badly on UA. If you are running what is essentially a mass service business, and so are heavily dependent on getting lots of people to give you money so that you'll act on their behalf, getting a reputation for having goons beating people up who try to stick up for receiving what they've paid for once they've passed a reasonable commit point, that's just terrible long-term business. I might not be the greatest at PR, not by a long shot, but I can see a massive backfire and label it as such. The suspicion that they then asked a friendly journalist to go muck-raking on their erstwhile customer… that's really doubling down on the PR disaster. PR isn't fair, nor is public opinion, but it's pretty predictable once you grok a bit about how homo sapiens works.
Now, I don't fly United. Haven't for many years; it's more convenient for me to use Delta (or American at a pinch) and the mountain of airmiles I've got will probably persuade me to stay. (The real cause for that is mostly to do with how Lufthansa chooses to run flights to UK destinations, which is irrelephant to this discussion.) But I can say that this sort of thing is a major worry when dealing with US-based airlines, and UA have made it high up on a lot more people's “avoid these jokers” list over this.
PR isn't about what is lawful, but rather often is about what is perceived to be fair.
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@Weng said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
The truly important thing is "What do Weng's Racist Homophobic Militant Dickweed Coworkers think about it?"
The consensus is that aircrews are within their rights to kill any passenger at any time for any reason under castle doctrine.
One of them, however, is completely appalled at the concept of passengers being bumped for any reason. He's the only one that's ever traveled beyond 2 day's driving distance from here (though that was in the Navy).
Am I to understand that this coworker of yours who was in the Navy is also one of the homophobic ones? If so, hope he gets some therapy soon; internalized homophobia is a bitch.
(Oh wait, we're not in the Garage, are we...)
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@dkf You don't hate Mondays. You hate capitalism.
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@boomzilla said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Rhywden said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
The condition of the guy after being forcibly removed, with him being dragged down the lane like a sack of potatoes. Such images also don't go down well with the public. Plus for the guy.
Totally disagree. This makes him look insane. I mean the optics for United and CPD are pretty bad, but with just a little bit of thought it's obvious that he acted with terrible judgement.
Or, y'know, makes him look like he may have had a concussion. The slurring of the words, among other things? It leaves me wondering whether United gave him any medical attention after the incident. And whether he needed it.
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@eternaleye yes, a concussion might explain his behavior. But then it may have been a service tip keep him away from patients on that case.
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@wharrgarbl said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@hungrier I saw tickets for $100 (already converted to USD) this year. And overbooking isn't allowed here, you get a numbered seat on your ticket.
Yeah, but that is like two year's wages where you live.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@anotherusername They failed to offer what they were required to; is it any wonder no one wanted to volunteer?
Business tries to save money, news at 11.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@abarker That's not what he said. He points out, as you do, that the provision applies to oversold flights, but this flight wasn't actually oversold. (They were trying to fly employees around who they added at the last minute, not paying passengers.) Therefore, oversold flight rules don't apply.
Says you...
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@abarker said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
The passenger was told that they were being required to involuntarily surrender their seat to make room for a UA employee, and I bet that UA attempted to provide compensation to the passenger as per the guidelines in Rule 25 as well as federal guidelines.
Yes. They were all offered $800 to take the next available flight.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@abarker Did you read the whole article or are you just taking snippets out of context?
He quoted the relevant bits. Do you want him to draw you a picture?
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@El_Heffe said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
I haven't flown for a while now, but I used to fly quite a bit for business.
If you don't hate all airlines, you aren't paying attention.
I fucking hate flying commercial flights.
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@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Captain said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Fuck United. They don't deserve anybody's business.
Also, Toby Faire, none of the airlines deserve anyone's business. They are all pretty much fetid shit.
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@Polygeekery business tries screwing people over and disregarding their rights to save money. News at 11.
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@boomzilla said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Captain said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Fuck United. They don't deserve anybody's business.
Also, Toby Faire, none of the airlines deserve anyone's business. They are all pretty much fetid shit.
Yeah, it really sucks that so many people can afford air travel.
Well, I realize that they are fetid shit because everyone flies by checking aggregator sites and choosing who is cheapest. Then we get shit like this and everyone complains about the airlines.
Stop choosing the cheapest flights and we will stop being treated like shit. Simple as that.
But I need to check my privilege. In a month we are going on vacation to Charleston and traveling on private aircraft. ;)
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Weng said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
One of them, however, is completely appalled at the concept of passengers being bumped for any reason.
I'm essentially in this camp. Reasonable exceptions should exist (plane unable to fly, passenger is being dangerous, etc.) but the default principle should be that the passenger has a right of ownership to that which has been sold to him, and that for an airline, just like with anyone else, selling something you do not actually possess constitutes fraud.
Yes, and in an ideal world that is how it would be. Now, get everyone to stop booking the cheapest flight they find on Travelocity and we can make it so. Until then, society gets what society pays for and society pays for the cheapest fucking flight that will get them from Point A to Point B.
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@dkf said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
PR isn't about what is lawful, but rather often is about what is perceived to be fair.
Yes, but will you at least agree that the majority of this negative PR is about the passenger being drug from the airplane, which was largely out of UA's control at that point?
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@heterodox said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Weng said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
The truly important thing is "What do Weng's Racist Homophobic Militant Dickweed Coworkers think about it?"
The consensus is that aircrews are within their rights to kill any passenger at any time for any reason under castle doctrine.
One of them, however, is completely appalled at the concept of passengers being bumped for any reason. He's the only one that's ever traveled beyond 2 day's driving distance from here (though that was in the Navy).
Am I to understand that this coworker of yours who was in the Navy is also one of the homophobic ones? If so, hope he gets some therapy soon; internalized homophobia is a bitch.
(Oh wait, we're not in the Garage, are we...)
I just hope he was in the Silent Service, where the submarines go down with 100 men and come back with 50 couples.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Polygeekery business tries screwing people over and disregarding their rights to save money. News at 11.
That is not what happened.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@anotherusername They failed to offer what they were required to; is it any wonder no one wanted to volunteer?
Less compensation is the price you pay for getting to volunteer, instead of forcing the airline to decide who to bump; then, maybe you get picked and maybe not.
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@anotherusername said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@anotherusername They failed to offer what they were required to; is it any wonder no one wanted to volunteer?
Less compensation is the price you pay for getting to volunteer, instead of forcing the airline to decide who to bump; then, maybe you get picked and maybe not.
I discussed it with the wife tonight. I gave her an accurate portrayal of what happened, peppered heavily with "UA were being fuckheads and tried to bump people after they boarded the plane". Her response was, "We are two adults with two kids. I would volunteer us for $3200 and hotel vouchers for a layover and we don't even need the money."
The entire situation is retarded. But, if Dao had not been a fuckhead then no one would even be talking about this. "Four passengers got bumped and paid $800 a piece to take a later flight" is not a headline. This is all a majority of Dao's fault.
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@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
I discussed it with the wife tonight. I gave her an accurate portrayal of what happened
And not even a "accurate portrayal" of the events. I felt like every other sentence was "Now keep in mind that United were being asshats, but...."
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@Polygeekery I would actually love to hear if someone could confirm whether Monday was actually the one day a week that he's even allowed to practice medicine.
Google wasn't helpful, and I'd expect that the clinic where he works probably isn't interested in fielding questions about him...
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@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
I discussed it with the wife tonight. I gave her an accurate portrayal of what happened, peppered heavily with "UA were being fuckheads and tried to bump people after they boarded the plane". Her response was, "We are two adults with two kids. I would volunteer us for $3200 and hotel vouchers for a layover and we don't even need the money."
Yeah, when I was growing up we'd take a flight for a vacation maybe one time in four; we'd make sure our schedules were never too tight and we were always the first to volunteer when the airline wanted someone to go for a later flight. You'd definitely get flight vouchers and could negotiate meal vouchers in the airport and hotel vouchers if you had to stay overnight.
Not a bad deal and it was the only way we could afford to fly even semi-regularly; those flight vouchers are good for quite a while.
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@heterodox the wife flies frequently for work. She takes the bump just to get the vouchers to make our vacation travel free. I don't see the big deal. I never plan my travel that close. If I have to be somewhere on Monday, I fly home on Saturday. Shit happens.
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