I meant my original jab at C# where I stated if that since I already know java, that qualifies me as knowing C# .
=D
I meant my original jab at C# where I stated if that since I already know java, that qualifies me as knowing C# .
=D
asuffield: Thank's for all the insight. You make some interesting points.
"99% of what you're seeing is cargo-cult behaviour..."
I guess your right about the models/design aspect. I'll learn "how to tell people
what I plan to do", on the actual job I'm working in since that's when I'd be
using it, otherwise, people dont' really give a damn what I'm coding so no explanation
is needed =D
This is actually quite unusual. Most people never realise that this is true until it no longer is...
As far as paving a path towards beeing a better programmer, I guess I'm going to try and
find good examples of code archetypes and just emulate/adopt those types of ideologies
into my thinking (ofcourse copying is boring, so I'll just come up with my own style =D).
But yes your right this is going to take my entire career to do huh? No point rushing it. Or
even think that it CAN be rushed. I've only been coding since the beggining of jr. high and
I'm 23 now so it hasn't been that long yet I guess, since I only started seriously learning
around end high school - college level. Honestly I hope I'm a good programmer, but I feel
that how I learn things (dive in and feel my way out) leads to a longer learning curve,
anyone else learn the same way who can give me some insignt?
"Well, my condolences on your impending suffering..."
Was choosing php really that bad an idea? I see it everywhere, jobs are posted all over the
place for web developers with these minimal skills (xml,html,xhtml,css,php,asp etc etc) so
I just figured why not learn php and then go into j2ee since I neer took the time to learn
html because it seemed so boring, and I've never created a web page before in my life. Just
figured it was about time I saw what all the hub-bub on the net was all about...(I've created
web apps with java before but nothing that had anything to do with a single web page.
Don't understand why people dog on php so much? As I'm learning it, (Mind you I'm seriously
only at the beggining still) it seems like every other language right now. Later on
I keep hearing that the whole database connectivity thing as a god send (actually the book I'm reading
keeps on pressing this issue *we can do this better by using a database etc etc). What's
with all the hate on it? (I don't love it, but don't see a reason why it CAN'T be used, or
would be frowned upon as a language is all...)
"You don't know anything about any language until you've written multiple applications in it..."
One thing about going through books, this is my first real book experience outside of being
guided through the vital parts of a book by a teacher. I don't know how to sift through the
BS. I'm going page by page.. which is boringggg, I know array's and for loops etc, but I
am to afraid to skip a chapter/page because Ifeel I'm giong to miss something that is particular
to the language I'm learning. One thing I've started doing though is just stopped reading the
explinations and just started looking at the damn code. 9/10 times I"ll get what's happening,
if I don't, then I"ll read. Will I gain a solid understanding by going through the entire book
this way? Is this common practice? would one do this at MY age with my level of knowledge?
also with every thing that is taught in the book, I write it and manipulate the way I see/believe'
it would work so I use them in ways the book isn't teaching me just because I assume I know what's
going on. Again 9/10 times I'm correct. And this illustrates that I'm not only reading but
actively coding along with the book as well. Slower I find though... maybe I should STOP diong this
and just focus on major aspects of the code and play around with those, or just do the projects
written in the book.
"you may know a lot about the nature of C#, but what you don't know is any of the myriad ways in which C# really sucks...."
About the c# jab, I guess jokes don't come across as well as they would if I would've said
to someone and you would've seen my expression =D, I know I don't know c# just because I know
java. But I do guarantee one thing (yes I'll prolly' be flamed for this as well), but I
will be able to pick it up alot quicker because I know java. ( gasp ) And I totally
agree with you on the whole updates create more problems then they solve notion. Look
at java updates....
"Firefox? It's a stunning example of bad design, for mostly historical reasons (tracing its history back to netscape and even mosaic)...."
where the hell did I get fireCod? wow I don't even like seafood...Ironic how you talk about
Sturgeon though though =D. And hatred is definitely NOT my means of motivation, I am known
for being a hater, but I don't remember ONE time when I've hated on something... and actually
tried to make it better. That's the hater way, we hate and that's it lol. I think I"m going
to have to try to make an effort in fixing bugs I come accross in some apps i use. Maybe
the plethora of bugs I see in all my linux apps =\ (hey atleast there all free....)
Thank's for the knowledge, I am in a sponge like state atm. =D
sorry, your right no one really said anything along those lines, just a knee-jerk defense mechanism kicking in =\.
oh one other point to add, I was considering joining JUG but I didn't
because I felt there wasn't much I could contribute but I thin I wil
join it and atleast attend and try to soap up some knowledge if I can.
Gues it's not all about what YOU know but how much you can learn from
what OTHERS know, which is why I'm here in the first place =D
nandurius - yeah alot of people are saying just get a job! lol. I'm trying to take the most I can out of these coop jobs but omg there so BAD. Could be my perception buth onestly there so brain numbing.
I think I may take your suggestion and start actively participating in an Open source development project of some sort. My only problem with that is I'm not so sure I can help because I'm sure all those that step into these types of projects know there stuff WELL, and i'm not so sure I do... (which is the orininal intent of this post =D) but I'm willing to give it a shot and seew hat develops.
Also I may take a look through the source of firecod and other such open source apps to get a general idea of how their designed. Guess I shoul stop askign how designs are implemented and just start LOOKING at examples. And how come you don't recommend php? I'm learnign that right now lol it's not so bad... is it too easy? or a completely different type of coding since it doesn't work on as low a level as say C, or to a lesser extent (in terms of level) java?
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Over. - no worries, I'm not upset about the name thing at all trust me =D.
I do know about the heap/stack and have worked with mostly stack since heap was transparent to me when I was working in in visual studio on some MFC project (maybe it wasn't even using the heap... altho I'm sure it was somewhere within that code... (this is why I don't like ide's that much.. i have no clue what's really happening =\) but they do speed up develop times...
and yes your right about locality of reference, we did learn that in terms of cpu - cache so I do undersatnd the concept very well.
You bring up a very good point though with the mystructy / myclassy example. These are platform specific things that I do not have a good handle of yet. I do know my Big endian vs Little endian on windows / 'nix if that counts =D (yay).
but I have been a 'nix user since slack ... shot I dont' even remember but a LONGGGG time like jr. high or so, and windows as well (you can't completely escape it =D) so I hope that aids me when it comes time that it's crucial for me to have to
create platform specific code. I think this is another area I will develop further in because you brought it up and I dont' erally know much in the area.
as far as your list goes, I know 50% of the languages listed.. can i count c# too since I know java very well???? =D
but *knowing* a language in my mind raelly means I've mastered it to the poitn where I can build small apps that wil help me
in every day life, nothign to the extreme point where I could be put at a well paying job and do the job flawlessly with litle learning, ofcourse not...so i guess
I'm an amateur in all of the 4 that I said I know lol.
Lot to learn I guess....
Thank's for all your suggestions/guideance your helping me more than you all know =D
I knew I was going to get flac' for having said I could learn any programming language. No matter what you guys say, I still beleive I can learn any language I want. Allright I'll credit you guys, maybe it's not all in the syntax, or atleast it WASN'T back then when LISP was "cool", but noawdays that's all I'm finding, but again there's so many languages I haven't looked at so I won't generalize. But I can still learn whatever I want, how LONG it takes is another factor =D.
I'm going to try and write some random gui's (without IDE's..? ) in languages I see fit and try and build from there. However, I don't know if I'll learn much model-view/design practice from this as, I'd be writing the gui in my own way. Maybe If I looked at examples while coding I'd adopt a proper design or something, maybe some crazy hybrid =\.
The only problem I find, is motivation. As much as I love computers, working and studying (for no real reason other than personal development) is kinda hard. Weekends are a complete bust as I'm out having fun at nights, (I do make time to study during the afternoons some of the times). But all in all, $$ has never been a huge motivator.... even though its' the sole reason why I want these assets to begin with (well that's not true, I truly do love computers in general, but you know what I mean. ANything to help the future funds =D).
Again, thank's for all your help guys. Still unclear on how I'll learn or atleast get an understanding of a proper design process/concepts or a model-view process. Maybe some suggested reading? Because other than actual career jobs, I don't see me learning it any time soon while in shchool, even through coop jobs =|
Thank's again to all who posted. It's good to know there's people willing to help out.
Oscar L. : Your right I need to get a REAL job. I'm sure I will develop alot from there. These coop placements I've had I've had nothing short of being dropped into a random desk (this current position has me in a lab with me being the only real techy, the rest our engineers and dr's constructing experiments behind me and building instruments for the government lol so I've basically been "on the job" learning all my recent languages (MFC architecture, VB, linux network administration). So I definitely can't wait to get a real job. Although if it's anything like these jobs... I'm definitely going to hate my life haha. ANd yes I will continue to learn languages for the hell of it as my drive lasts lol. I hope I don't get brain drained/ burned out early on in life =D.
CodeWhisperer: I will check out LISP (i have heard of it before) and see what you mean, I'm sure it'll make my head spin much like they say cobalt does... or was that perl?.... In any case as an employer for a student fresh out of school would you still expect some design knowledge? I know you have to know how to write a good lucking and well put together code, but I mean outside of that what can you expect in terms of design? (I suppose in University this is taught in great detail, many friends of mine also deal with similar matters)
AmmoQ: I remember templates, those were fun in a masochistic sort of way =D, as were the first time I learned pointers (very bad teacher in High school...). I think I just may get some of those books or even check out advanced tutorials in languages I've already learned and see what else I can grasp of them that would be expected of me from an employers standpoint.
naw, not changing my nick because it has relevance to me. Doesn't define me as a person anyways so for those that would judge me based on that don't know me anyways so what the hell do i care?. thank's for being professional "whiskey, tango.. foxtrot"... I would comment on that name, but honestly I'm not here to be a fucking loser and troll =D.
Thank's for the response though, much appreciated (seriously, you did have a valid point =b~ )
hah guess I don't know much at all then.
if you mean things such as putting a $ in front of a variable or not and different ways of forming for loops and the like then I really think that is STILL the same thing packaged in a different way. I'm not arguing which one is better than another just that if you have a solid understanding of one way, then learning another will not be as difficult. Just a matter of playing with it and getting familiar and comfortable with it. Although I could be wrong and you may be talking about aspects of a progarmming language I've yet to encounter in my programming career.
Also I think I may have over-generalized, yes I know some programming languages have there own special little tools that are effective at doing specialized things and that's why they are used for such reasons but again, I don't consider those anything that will deter me from learnign a language, or cause me to not learn one. I still believe that having the basic tools will aid me in understanding any new construct/idea or whatever it may be that is new. I'm not being cocky, I'm just being realistic, I hope I am understanding what you mean.
and yes your correct every langauges has it's own style which is the standard and is legible to all others who will review the code, and I definitely follow those everytime I learn a new language. that is a must for sure.
"The best way to learn to code well is to read and understand good code, then write good code yourslef."
By good code do you mean well written and efficient/effective? or compelx constructs of a certain language which I can learn from and adapt and learn by emulating them in my own way? If the later then would you suggest getting books on the topic, such as "how to REALLY code in C++" etc etc, you know, those books that tout showing you THE most effective way of handelling certain situations which come across in respective progarmming languages? or would you say, deconstruct popular open-source code and simply go from the bottom-up and learn it that way?.
Thank you for your response.
*wow this was really long, I'll edit it another time (Im' at work right now) sorry guys
Now that I've hopefully got your attention,
I wanted to ask a question... I have completed a Computer Engineering Diploma as well am currently on the verge of completing a Telecommunications / Wireless Degree and I have alot of hard/soft skills. Hard with robot creation using simple 8086 processors and having to code for them as well. Also I have have learned a ton of languages (the school ones really.. C,C++,Java,Shell scripting, Assembly, Sql, some ruby and I'm prolly' forgetting alot) but I'm at a loss right now with direction and coding practice.
Direction meaning yeah I can code, and I can code in any language I want because it's all just a matter of syntax in the end (yeah some languages have there own little quirks but all in all it's syntax). but I don't think I REALLY know how to code yet.
I mean, I'm the type of learner that loves to dive into things and trial and error my way into understanding my boundries within a language and how methods work and so on and so forth. Yeah I dont' read manuals either if that's what you were wondering =D. But When it comes to programming I see all these models being drawn and all this planning being done and I just don't know how to do it (prolly' because I went to college for the majority of my programming knowledge and it was all hands on). So I feel lost. Like there's an entire side to programming that I'm missing, which can make my programming better, more efficient and have me waste less time trial + error'ing.
Along with this, I want to point out that it's not just that I don't KNOW how to do them, as I'm sure when I enter a REAL job (these coop jobs TRULY suck..... ) I will learn all these models and pre-planning, but I wonder how long it's going to take me to truly master them.
One last thing (oh my this is quite long...) I've just started learning programming languages on my own (started with php, seems like I'll need it in my immediate future) but I'm not sure if I"m giong about this the right way.
Im' starting chapter by chapter *yawnnnnnnnnnnn* this is a for loop... this is an if statement.. yah along the way I learn key differences in the language but holy moses this is boringggg, how do you guys study languages on your own? what's the best way to do so (I'm doign so through books, I've done some langauges online but there's no real good examples to follow I find. Although Ruby's Comic book thing was awsome lol)
I guess I just feel lost, maybe i'm trying to grow up before my time but I'm 23 and I already feel it was a waste to go back for this wirelress telecomm degree (they gave me 2.5 years of a 4 year program, and I have 3 coops ughhhhh) so I don't feel like I have time to waste. I just wanted the extra few K the degree will give me hopefully (I'm canadian btw so every $ counts.. although I do have american immigrancy as well so I can work anywhere in teh states.. yay .. but I like canada)
I'm just looking for some guideance or general direction from some who've been in the game for a while.
Thank you and honestly I apologize for making this so long.
Thank you to anyone in advance who replies