Windows Update is a broken-ass buggy piece of shit



  • @Salamander said:

    Ignoring that post's horrific overuse of colour, it doesn't really explain why sudo is considered bad. It rants on about how it lets users use their own password to run root commands, but not why that is a bad thing.

    I can tell you that, and I don't even like Linux.

    Because if you're reading a guide about how to do something on Linux, they always give you a long series of commands to run, some of which require sudo and some of which do not. If you're lucky, they'll actually bother to tell you which is which, but most of the time they will not. Instead you'll try running "whoop there-it --is" and it'll say "file not found" or "no permissions" or "don't work, fuck you". Because the system's too fucking stupid to realize the command needs other permissions and prompt you for it at the time you run the command. Like, you know, every other OS has done for like 7-8 years now.

    Then you go to your friend and ask why it didn't work like the directions said it would, and he'll say you have to use sudo before the command. Now you, as a neophyte, just learned that sudo is a magic word that makes commands that failed for no obvious reason suddenly work. And there's no obvious downside to using it all the time. So he uses it all the time. Suddenly, there goes any security benefit he might have otherwise received! Because he's basically running as root anyway, just typing a bit more to do it.

    TECHNICALLY sudo might be fine. But practically speaking, it's implemented as a magic word that makes "don't work, fuck you" errors go away. Which is a huge, huge, huge flaw.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @tdb said:

    Actually

    @tdb said:
    Actually

    FTFY (x2)


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @blakeyrat said:

    Because if you're reading a guide about how to do something on Linux, they always give you a long series of commands to run, some of which require sudo and some of which do not. If you're lucky, they'll actually bother to tell you which is which, but most of the time they will not. Instead you'll try running "whoop there-it --is" and it'll say "file not found" or "no permissions" or "don't work, fuck you". Because the system's too fucking stupid to realize the command needs other permissions and prompt you for it at the time you run the command.

    So, how is this different from launching a non-administrator command prompt in Windows and running an administrative command (let's say iisreset)? Oh, because in Linux you can just sudo but in Windows you have to launch a new command prompt with administrative privileges and try again.

    Or opening a file in Notepad, start editing, and realize that you didn't elevate when you launched Notepad so now you can't save the file. Actually, neither OS seems to handle this scenario.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @nonpartisan said:
    su

    ifdown eth0; ifup eth0

    Best done through an ILO/RIB/LOM/etc.-type connection, although if you do it from an SSH connection and DHCP succeeds you'll be able to SSH back into the server.

    But make sure you don't hsl the DHSQ when you P098b the FDLLAM or you might have a problem where your LHJ doesn't frob UTXX in time.

    I can provide industry-standard definitions for every single one of those acronyms.  I request you post the industry-standard definitions for all of those.  Oh, you pulled those out of your ass?  STFU and don't post about things you know nothing about.

    Any server admin who has been working more than a week should know what I'm talking about, either by the acronyms or through context.

    You've already proven you're incompetent at server administration.  Go back to your Steamy World of Dickweed.

     



  • @joe.edwards said:

    So, how is this different from launching a non-administrator command prompt in Windows and running an administrative command (let's say iisreset)? Oh, because in Linux you can just sudo but in Windows you have to launch a new command prompt with administrative privileges and try again.

    Except that the analogous Windows neophyte is likely to be running everything as an administrator already, so it's not really a problem for him!



  • @tdb said:

    Actually, they're very nearly the same thing. [...] The differences are:


    <significant differences omitted>
    So you're in violent agreement with what I said then?



  • @joe.edwards said:

    So, how is this different from launching a non-administrator command prompt in Windows and running an administrative command (let's say iisreset)?

    Nobody actually does that. CMD has been deprecated for years.

    @joe.edwards said:

    Oh, because in Linux you can just sudo but in Windows you have to launch a new command prompt with administrative privileges and try again.

    Yes, I believe that would be the su we discussed as an alternative to sudo, correct me if I am wrong.

    @joe.edwards said:

    Or opening a file in Notepad, start editing, and realize that you didn't elevate when you launched Notepad so now you can't save the file.

    Nobody actually does that. Why would you need to elevate to save a text document? Are you saving it in the System32 folder or something? Fuck. Why the fuck are you even USING Notepad in 2013? Are you from a time-warp? CMD, Notepad... it's Windows 2000 all over again! Aaaaa!

    @joe.edwards said:

    Actually, neither OS seems to handle this scenario.

    Even LINUX has realized that only cretins would do your last scenario. Wow. That's harsh on you buddy.



  • @nonpartisan said:

    Oh, you pulled those out of your ass?

    Yeah! It's called a "joke"! It's this radical new concept, maybe you've heard of it? Apparently they use them on TV sometimes, something called a "comedy" or "situational comedy", I'm not sure. I think you're supposed to, what was it... oh yeah! "Laugh" when you read it. It's like kind of a soft barking sound I guess.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    Usually it's C:\Windows\System32\drivers\etc\hosts, I have to modify it frequently. And why wouldn't I edit it with Notepad?



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Why would you need to elevate to save a text document? Are you saving it in the System32 folder or something? Fuck.
    To edit hosts, services, networks or any of the other files in that folder?



  • Filed under: I hate Windows! It makes it so hard to do things that make absolutely no sense and nobody actually does to regular users, but frequently need to be done by power users, administrators and developers

    FTFY

    It wouldn't be too hard for someone to actually implement a text editor that spawns off an elevated process to save a file if it found that it needed to. However, no editor I know of does this. I'd find it useful, for sure.



  • @MiffTheFox said:

    Didn't work for me. When the connection came back up it was the same old cached IP.
    It may have looked like that to you.  Did you read the dialog?

    Internet Systems Consortium DHCP Client 4.1.1-P1
    Copyright 2004-2010 Internet Systems Consortium.
    All rights reserved.
    For info, please visit https://www.isc.org/software/dhcp/

    Listening on LPF/eth0/00:50:56🆎6d:4d
    Sending on   LPF/eth0/00:50:56🆎6d:4d
    Sending on   Socket/fallback
    DHCPRELEASE on eth0 to 10.15.22.148 port 67
    Internet Systems Consortium DHCP Client 4.1.1-P1
    Copyright 2004-2010 Internet Systems Consortium.
    All rights reserved.
    For info, please visit https://www.isc.org/software/dhcp/

    Listening on LPF/eth0/00:50:56🆎6d:4d
    Sending on   LPF/eth0/00:50:56🆎6d:4d
    Sending on   Socket/fallback
    DHCPDISCOVER on eth0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 5
    DHCPOFFER from 10.76.224.66
    DHCPREQUEST on eth0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67
    DHCPACK from 10.76.224.66
    bound to 10.76.224.94 -- renewal in 83076 seconds.

    If it output the standard dialog you see above, then the DHCP server is what gave you the same address back; Debian had nothing to do with it.

    @MiffTheFox said:

    Also Debian doesn't use su, it uses sudo.
    Tell that to my Debian box.

    @MiffTheFox said:

    the diaspora of fundamentally different OS's being treated as a single unified one.
    It is a problem.  I think it's because people who refer to "Linux" either don't know or don't understand the distinction that "Linux" is the kernel underpinning the OS.  One of our UNIX admins complained about this; I told him that it's similar to referring to Solaris and HP-UX and AIX (etc.) as "UNIX".  They're technically all "UNIX" but they have different ways of doing things.  Such is the same with all of these Linux distributions.  Debian and Ubuntu are related; RedHat and CentOS are related.  But they're still different.

    Nevertheless, you can't tell me that Windows is a unified system either.  To change network settings, click on the Start button (Windows 7 doesn't have it -- it has that circle with the Windows logo), go to Control Panel, click on Network Settings (oops, it's Network and Sharing Center in Windows 7), right-click on the Local Area Connection icon (nope, gotta click on Change adapter settings first in Windows 7) . . . etc.  As my specialty is Cisco IOS, it's not unified either.  The config organization changes between versions.  They change configuration commands -- sometimes by a single character.  What was once a default changes from one version to another within the same train.

    Linux distributions are not unified.  UNIX implementations are not unified.  Windows versions aren't unified.  Get over it.  Welcome to IT.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Instead you'll try running "whoop there-it --is" and it'll say "file not found" or "no permissions" or "don't work, fuck you". Because the system's too fucking stupid to realize the command needs other permissions and prompt you for it at the time you run the command. Like, you know, every other OS has done for like 7-8 years now.

    I do like Linux, but I totally agree. Apache is a nice example. You want to restart it, and you get a bunch of shitty error messages that explain nothing. Then when you put sudo in front of it, it suddenly works. How come Apache can't figure out the user that tried to restart it, doesn't have the right permissions? Blakey probably has a good answer to that: I'm toon for TDWTFTV, back to you Blakey.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @joe.edwards said:
    So, how is this different from launching a non-administrator command prompt in Windows and running an administrative command (let's say iisreset)?

    Nobody actually does that. CMD has been deprecated for years.

    In a previous thread, you said:

    @blakeyrat said:

    What is "the" Windows CLI? Windows doesn't have a "the" CLI.

    I do prefer PowerShell to Bash, if that's what you mean. If you're talking about CMD, that's... not quite accurate.

    And yet you knew exactly what he was talking about when he talked about "launching a non-administrator command prompt in Windows".  CMD is the de facto CLI for Windows.

     



  • @toon said:

    How come Apache can't figure out the user that tried to restart it, doesn't have the right permissions?
     

    It's hoping you could deduce that from the content of the error messages, or made the assumption that the user knew what they were doing. @toon said:

    Then when you put sudo in front of it, it suddenly works.

    Have you understood the reason why "it suddenly works"? I know in the days of Win2000, running some games in the Administrator context meant they "suddenly worked" but as my logged-in user kept barfing with some strange dialogues.

     



  • @blakeyrat said:

    CMD has been deprecated for years.
     

    That's funny, someone must have forgot to tell Microsoft, because custom build events in Visual Studio (pre-build, pre-link and post-build steps) are basically CMD scripts. Visual Studio 2010 installs no less than 4 links to CMD.EXE batch files (with
    different environment settings) in the start menu.  Notice that it
    doesn't install any links to PowerShell.  When you create a web application deployment package in Visual Studio, it creates a custom CMD.EXE script file for you to run.

    Yes, I realize many administrators and developers can get by without ever using CMD.EXE, I realize CMD.EXE has a lot of legacy issues (), and I realize PowerShell is supposed to replace CMD.EXE, but that doesn't mean it isn't useful.

    I would also guess that most people who want to use ping (for example) in Windows would open up CMD.EXE and not PowerShell.  Not everyone needs scripting and not everyone needs a command line, but CMD.EXE, despite its issues, still does the job for many people.

    Also, for hardware drivers to be certified for Windows Server OS's (including 2008, 2008 R2 and 2012), developers must provide a console application for configuration.  So anyone who thinks the command line itself is obsolete is wrong.  (I realize you didn't say that, but many people, especially end users, believe that it is.)

    () Even the script file that Visual Studio creates for deploying a web application has one of these issues: you can't run it from a path that has a parenthesis in it.  (e.g. "\program files (x86)..."  To be clear, I didn't want to run it from a path like that, but someone else did.)



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Nobody actually does that. CMD has been deprecated for years.
    OK, then PowerShell (except that commands sometimes fail silently when you run them from non-elevated PS; other times you get several lines of red text that very verbosely tell you which parts of the thing you were trying to do failed - but not why).
    @blakeyrat said:
    Nobody actually does that. Why would you need to elevate to save a text document?
    You never ever had to edit the hosts file?



  • @ender said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    Nobody actually does that. Why would you need to elevate to save a text document?
    You never ever had to edit the hosts file?

    One good example, IMO, is to test an application's internet auto-update functionality without making any changes to your company's live website.  I've had to do this, and I realize there's other ways, but I didn't feel like setting up a DNS server in the test lab just to direct one host name to an internal IP.  

    (It's a small company, so we don't use DNS internally in the test lab.  And even if we did, I probably wouldn't want to change DNS server that everybody's using to just for my own testing.)


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    I usually create a fooapplication.localhost.myemployer.com hosts entry whenever I'm developing another web application (our single sign-on depends on a cookie assigned to .myemployer.com).



  • @PJH said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    Why would you need to elevate to save a text document? Are you saving it in the System32 folder or something? Fuck.
    To edit hosts, services, networks or any of the other files in that folder?
     

     

    Well, maybe Blakeyrat never have heard of the concept of configuration file.

     If he do, maybe he think it's a good idea to let them be edited without any privilege check.

     Now, the most likely option is that he didn't try to think if the scenario he were talking about was plausible or not. It's Blakeyrat. If it does not conforme to his habit, then  it's both outlandish and stupid, and an unworkable mess.


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