The Grey Knight



  • So on my current project we primarily do packaging and deployment development. A-lot of InstallScript(Some for Windows MSIs, some for pure InstallShield installers), maybe some C# or VB.NET (or VB6 for the old systems).

    We have a mostly new to the project team. One said member is what I call a 'Grey Knight(ess)'. That is someone who may have many years experience, is new to the project and makes demands as-if s/he was at the project genesis and/or had been around a while. I've only been programming for ~3-ish years, so I've never considered myself in a position to flat out refuse to work on a program/utility that is written in particular language. This individual is a sub(sub-sub-sub-maybe?) contractor so maybe her/his contract says s/he won't work on VB.NET/VB/Anything-resembling-BASIC. Also, s/he wants to get back into 'mobile development', something we do NONE of. Is the first WTF the interview process of the Prime/Tech Lead or the individual?

    My issues being at-least 50% of the work we do is InstallScript(Worst of BASIC + Worst of C), 30% C#, 15% VB.NET(Or some BASIC derivitive), 5% Other. I am going to talk to my boss (and maybe boss +1 and boss + 2 which are easily accessible) on Monday. Any pro-tips on dealing with uh, developers that don't really fit the project?

     I think there is work s/he could do, but the whole 'I haven't done BASIC since High-school and won't do it' mentality really rubs me the wrong way, considering said individual is some where north of 40. Seriously, you haven't dealt with a BASIC syntax language since, what, fucking 1980? Grow the fuck up.

     

    Maybe I should have stayed with that VB6 project...

     

     



  • @MathNerdCNU said:

     I think there is work s/he could do, but the whole 'I haven't done BASIC since High-school and won't do it' mentality really rubs me the wrong way, considering said individual is some where north of 40. Seriously, you haven't dealt with a BASIC syntax language since, what, fucking 1980? Grow the fuck up.

    Back when I worked in animation, I developed tools for animators and designed pipelines and workflows. I thought I had a good handle on things and that everything I'd designed was good until a new guy came in and showed me some tools and procedures he'd come up with at another studio that were better than mine. What I'm trying to say is, just because "that's how we've always done it" doesn't mean it's the right way to do things. I'm playing devils advocate a bit here, because I've encountered "language fanboys" who are generally just bad developers who hide behind the "specialist" title. Just don't dismiss them immediately because they have a dissenting opinion is all.



  • @MathNerdCNU said:

    We have a mostly new to the project team.
    I think you a word?@MathNerdCNU said:
    That is someone who may have many years experience, is new to the project and makes demands as-if s/he was at the project genesis and/or had been around a while.
    Must... control.... sword... of.... SLICE.. education--   oh, damn.@MathNerdCNU said:
    Is the first WTF the interview process of the Prime/Tech Lead or the individual?
    Yeah. That, or the interview panel are so far removed from the project that they have no understanding of actual requirements and hire solely based upon Headlight Dazzle Word Bingo.@MathNerdCNU said:
    Any pro-tips on dealing with uh, developers that don't really fit the project?
    Firstly: don't ostracise them or draw attention to their unsuitability. It may not be their fault. Draw attention to the selection process - during meetings highlight something of importance and question who on the project has required skills and capability to perform said activity. Press team leaders into giving up names of people that can assist in a skilled capacity, highlighting potential project failure early closure due to a skills shortage or lack of appropriate resource.

    Don't forget to balance out your situation by highlighting those that have been a suitable fit. It's one thing to say "these are the wrong people"; it also helps to say "these are the right people" and give reasons for such.@MathNerdCNU said:

    but the whole 'I haven't done BASIC since High-school and won't do it' mentality really rubs me the wrong way
    Potential for playing the "thanks for telling me what you won't do - perhaps you could tell me what you can do?" card. Alternatively, a simple retort of "should I tell $BOSS you [ are unsuitable for this project | won't do your assigned task | don't expect to get paid ] or will you?" is less painful than reaching for the Wooden Cluebat of Refocussed Priorities.



  • @MathNerdCNU said:

    . Seriously, you haven't dealt with a BASIC syntax language since, what, fucking 1980? Grow the fuck up.

    That's the thing, I've grown up enough to recognize crap before touching it. I'll fucking leave any job before touching Basic or VB. But hey, keep on going with it if you like it



  • @ubersoldat said:

    @MathNerdCNU said:

    . Seriously, you haven't dealt with a BASIC syntax language since, what, fucking 1980? Grow the fuck up.

    That's the thing, I've grown up enough to recognize crap before touching it. I'll fucking leave any job before touching Basic or VB. But hey, keep on going with it if you like it



    Makes sense with regard to VB6, but if you are trying to extend this to, say, consider C#>VB.NET, It is nothing more than misplaced love for curly braces and semicolons. I work primarily in C# now, but I've had no qualms and sometimes even look forward to a "break" where I work in VB.NET, Python, or another language that actually does something different from the C-style.

     Usually a dismissive attitude towards a language or platform is nothing more than an attempt to justify one's own choices do not use the language or platform.

     



  • @ubersoldat said:

    I'll fucking leave any job before touching Basic or VB.
     

    That's your choice. You move aside and let someone else fulfil that function, enabling production to continue.

    The choice this Grey Knight(ress) made appeared to be: take on the contract then refuse to deal with the language - a move that's actively blocking production.



  • @ubersoldat said:

    I'll fucking leave any job before touching Basic or VB

    Even VB.net? Even RealBasic?

    You're not making a stand, you're an idiot.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Even VB.net? Even RealBasic?

    You're not making a stand, you're an idiot.

    The Realbasic language has come up a lot since the earlier days (v3 was pathetic) but the IDE and framework still suck beyond belief. I tried Real Studio 2012r1 just long enough to bask in the horror before uninstalling it.

    It's a shame. I felt for a long time that if they could ever get it right, it would be fantastic. That said, I no longer feel confident that cross-platform graphical development is meaningful. The UI conventions of different graphical systems just differ too greatly, enough so that it's not worth wishing that Realbasic supported XML-based window layout to handle different font sizes, control sizes, control spacing, and languages. I don't know — maybe you could write separate UIs in Realbasic and put all the common code into DLLs.



  • @ubersoldat said:

    I've grown up enough
     

    BEEEEEEP



  • @Cassidy said:

    @MathNerdCNU said:

    We have a mostly new to the project team.
    I think you a word?

     

     

    That's what I thought at first, but after a couple of tries I realised it can be made parsable by hyphenation: "We have a mostly-new-to-the-project team"

     



  • @Cassidy said:

    I think you a word?
     

    I think thee a word, sir! That you are indeed!



  • @Cantabrigian said:

    "We have a mostly-new-to-the-project team"
     

    That makes more sense. Yeah, I see it now.

    @dhromed said:

    I think thee a word, sir! That you are indeed!

    My ears are burning. I don't think I like your choice of word.

     



  • @Cassidy said:

    I don't think I like your choice of word.
     

    "sir" ?

    Mayhaps you prefer "madam"?



  • @dhromed said:

    "sir" ?
    Okay, my ears are still burning. It's not you, then. @dhromed said:
    Mayhaps you prefer "madam"?
    Only at weekends, you naughty boy.

     



  • @Soviut said:

    I thought I had a good handle on things and that everything I'd designed was good until a new guy came in and showed me some tools and procedures he'd come up with at another studio that were better than mine. What I'm trying to say is, just because "that's how we've always done it" doesn't mean it's the right way to do things. I'm playing devils advocate a bit here, because I've encountered "language fanboys" who are generally just bad developers who hide behind the "specialist" title. Just don't dismiss them immediately because they have a dissenting opinion is all.
     

    Despite your shitty taste in games, you raise a good point.



  • @Cassidy said:

    Okay, my ears are still burning. It's not you, then.
     

    Maybe your hair is on fire.



  • @BC_Programmer said:

    Makes sense with regard to VB6, but if you are trying to extend this to, say, consider C#>VB.NET, It is nothing more than misplaced love for curly braces and semicolons. I work primarily in C# now, but I've had no qualms and sometimes even look forward to a "break" where I work in VB.NET, Python, or another language that actually does something different from the C-style.

     Usually a dismissive attitude towards a language or platform is nothing more than an attempt to justify one's own choices do not use the language or platform.

    I seem to remember that there are CLR features that VB.net can't do, or can't do easilly; but i don't remember specifics.


    OTOH, VB.net is horribly verbose and working in it even for a short time (like developing a sample script for a customer) one may learn to appreciate the concise syntax and semantics that curly braces and semicolons provide all the more.


    Also VB can only use the verbose LINQ syntax, C# can also use the functions directly like

    foreach int i in Range(10).Where(i => 0 == i %2)

    instead of

    var evenquerey = from num in numbers
    where num %2 == 0
    select num



  • @esoterik said:

    I seem to remember that there are CLR features that VB.net can't do, or can't do easilly; but i don't remember specifics.


    OTOH, VB.net is horribly verbose and working in it even for a short time (like developing a sample script for a customer) one may learn to appreciate the concise syntax and semantics that curly braces and semicolons provide all the more.


    Also VB can only use the verbose LINQ syntax, C# can also use the functions directly like

    foreach int i in Range(10).Where(i => 0 == i %2)

    instead of

    var evenquerey = from num in numbers
    where num %2 == 0
    select num

    Hey, at least it's not VB6/VBA.



  • @MathNerdCNU said:

    s/he

    Can everyone just finally give up the ghost and start using the singular they?



  • @esoterik said:

    OTOH, VB.net is horribly verbose and working in it even for a short time (like developing a sample script for a customer) one may learn to appreciate the concise syntax and semantics that curly braces and semicolons provide all the more.


    Also VB can only use the verbose LINQ syntax, C# can also use the functions directly like

    foreach int i in Range(10).Where(i => 0 == i %2)

    instead of

    var evenquerey = from num in numbers
    where num %2 == 0
    select num

    C#'s if is type-safe. You don't have to put the constant first. I think VB.NET's is too with Option Strict.

    And I remember using LINQ functions like Contains last time I was using VB.NET, like just after LINQ had came out.



  • @MiffTheFox said:

    @MathNerdCNU said:
    s/he

    Can everyone just finally give up the ghost and start using the singular they?

    I'm generally a bit more formal and use "the fuckwad", "the asshat", or "the idiot" ...


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