Adobe installed an update...



  • It told me there was a new update of its Acrobat Reader available so I installed it.

    Then having installed it, it wanted to restart my system. There is absolutely no reason why an Adobe Acrobat Reader upgrade / install should need to reinstall the system,. It is a document viewer, not part of the kernel of my operating system. The window gave me two options, Close which just hides the window or upgrade.

    Fortunately I found my Task Manager gave me a 3rd option which was to kill the application.

    Apple's last upgrade of iTunes also wanted me to restart my computer. What is it with these software manufacturers thinking they own all rights to my computer? It's bad enough Apple wants to run all these horrible services on my computer that I don't want either. I want my software to start when I start it and stop when I stop it. If I'm not actually using iTunes I don't want any of their software running on my computer...

    I recently uninstalled Facebook Messenger too. After going through their uninstall process it opened a browser on their page to ask me the reason I was uninstalling. It had a free text box and a drop-down of popular reasons, one of which was "I don't want it to start with the system".. If it's such a popular answer, why don't they realise people don't want software to start with their system and give us the easy option to prevent it happening, ideally making this the default. I removed it from my start-up programs only for it to put itself back. I used to have a program, I think my old virus-checker, that would automatically prevent software from writing to this part of the registry, thus preventing software from starting with Windows unless I asked it to.

     



  • @Cbuttius said:

    . I used to have a program, I think my old virus-checker, that would automatically prevent software from writing to this part of the registry, thus preventing software from starting with Windows unless I asked it to.

    I use StartupMonitor (http://www.mlin.net/StartupMonitor.shtml) for that. Ok, it in turn does start with windows, but it's far from a resource drain. The website says it works up to winXP, but on win7 it seems to work just fine as well.



  •  I just had to upgrade my version of Photoshop at work, and the installation refused to get past a certain point because it needed me to close Firefox. Now, the upgrade was only for Photoshop, not Flash, so it wouldn't have been updating the Flash player, and when I restarted Fx, I saw no new plugins or addons. I still can't think of a good reason for it.

    On the Adobe Reader front, I uninstalled that ages ago and replaced it with Foxit reader. Not had any problems with opening PDFs, and it's not constantly bugging me to restart my machine.



  •  Well, at least Adobe are no longer putting their bloody icon on your desktop every time you upgrade. If there's one application where you NEVER need the icon to start it, it's Adobe (Acrobat) Reader. Yet, with every single upgrade you got that stupid, useless desktop icon back.

     The support people said that some suits had decided that these icons were really necessary, but apparently somebody had a moment of sanity, and the icon is gone.

    And hey, it only took them like 10 years or so.



  • @Severity One said:

    Well, at least Adobe are no longer putting their bloody icon on your desktop every time you upgrade.
     

    Last time I updated they still did it. I can't remember any updates happening recently.



  • It amazes me that after, what? 15 years? Windows systems still need to restart for every minor change. Compared with *nix systems where you can even install a RDBMS like Oracle without a restart.

    Is this a consecuence of the Windows Registry?


  • SockDev

    @Cbuttius said:

    Acrobat Reader

    [mythbustersvoice]There's yer problem![/mythbustersvoice]

    Acrobat alternatives are good enough for most uses - just switch to one fo them. I use Nitro Reader myself, but there are many others like Foxit and Sumatra. See which you like best ;)

     



  • @ubersoldat said:

    Is this a consecuence of the Windows Registry?
    I think some companies took the "Your Mouse Has Moved. Windows Must Be Restarted For The Change To Take Effect" joke a little too seriously.



  •  The myth that you need to restart for everything in Windows is like the myth that you have to compile everything from source in Linux.



  • @ubersoldat said:

    It amazes me that after, what? 15 years? Windows systems still need to restart for every minor change. Compared with *nix systems where you can even install a RDBMS like Oracle without a restart.

    Is this a consecuence of the Windows Registry?

    No, it's a feature that allows me to continue working with my application while in the background I'm installing an update for it. If the Windows installer detects it cannot replace a binary because it's locked (for example it being in use) it will create a task instead to replace it at the beginning of the boot procedure before any other task has had the chance to take a lock. In the meantime I can continue working with my application for as long as I like. And when I boot up my machine the next day, I will magically have access to the updated version.

    I feel sorry for you that you cannot use an application on Linux and install updates for it simultaneously. I bet you need to stop your application before you can update it. Sucks to be a Linux user.



  • @bjolling said:

    I feel sorry for you that you cannot use an application on Linux and install updates for it simultaneously. I bet you need to stop your application before you can update it. Sucks to be a Linux user.

    I fell sorry for you, because you'll lose the bet. Instead, you continue to use the old version until you close it / shut it down / whatever and start a new instance. Sucks to be a Windows user.

    TRWTF is a modern OS that requires 3rd party software to use their own WTF-y update checkers in order to keep software updated in a non-manual fashion.


  • SockDev

    @bjolling said:

    I feel sorry for you that you cannot use an application on Linux and install updates for it simultaneously.

    Not true in my experience, although sometimes (rarely) the update can screw with the running copy. The updater will also automatically restart services on behalf of the user.

    The only update that actually requires a reboot now is for the kernel, and maybe a couple of low-level drivers.



  •  You can replace a program that is running, or a file that is in use. The file is unlinked from the filesystem and the new one put in place. However, any open file handles to the old file will remain valid until they are closed, and, when the last file handle is no more, the disk space recovered.

    The only time this causes issues is with disk space with really large files (you have to kick the loging daemon after you nuke a runaway log file before the space is freed, for instance), and if you replace really large packages (like your DE, gnome or KDE) without doing something about it, you'll have the running version trying to load libraries from the new one. You can work around that, too, but sometimes a reboot is easier.



  • @dhromed said:

     The myth that you need to restart for everything in Windows is like the myth that you have to compile everything from source in Linux.

     

    Exactly. I'm sorry, but if Nvidia can upgrade my graphics card driver without restarting Windows, other companies have no excuse.

     



  • @ubersoldat said:

    It amazes me that after, what? 15 years? Windows systems still need to restart for every minor change. Compared with *nix systems where you can even install a RDBMS like Oracle without a restart.

    Is this a consecuence of the Windows Registry?

     

    That's because of the file lock mechanism. Windows locks a file every time you open it, doesn't matter what you do. While *nix  only lock files when you explicitly ask for it, and define a simple interleaving mechanism for applying changes. (If you use KDE, you'll probably notice that after some upgrades you must restart it, otherwise you can't open any new program.)

    Some tasks require changing files that are kept open by system services. When that happens, you must restart Windows.

     



  • @curtmack said:

    Exactly. I'm sorry, but if Nvidia can upgrade my graphics card driver without restarting Windows, other companies have no excuse.
    How long have they been able to do that? Last time I installed an NVidia driver on Windows I got the usual popup asking me to restart.



  •  That reminds me: last week, Windows Update silently installed Skype on my laptop. Not upgraded an existing install. Not asked if it may install Skype. Just fucking installed it. Same on my wife's machine. [url="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/02/microsoft_skype_silent_install/"]http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/02/microsoft_skype_silent_install/[/url].

    That it happened is a piss-off, but not surprising. What surprised me is-- where was the conip-shitstorm? Microsoft-- silent update-- forced product monopoly-- purchasing small company-- it has literally ALL the hallmarks of a good nerd-froth. Maybe I just wasn't reading Slashdot close enough that day?

    [url="https://www.google.ca/search?q=microsoft+skype+windows+update+site%3Aslashdot.org&oq=microsoft+skype+windows+update+site%3Aslashdot.org"]Nope[/url]

    WTF?



  • @boomzilla said:

    @bjolling said:
    I feel sorry for you that you cannot use an application on Linux and install updates for it simultaneously. I bet you need to stop your application before you can update it. Sucks to be a Linux user.
    I fell sorry for you, because you'll lose the bet. Instead, you continue to use the old version until you close it / shut it down / whatever and start a new instance. Sucks to be a Windows user.
    What exactly do I lose? Suppose I'm working with "MyApp v1.5". Simultaneously I'm upgrading to "MyApp v1.6" which can happily run in the background. I don't have to stop working in "MyApp 1.5". At the end of the day, I save my work and shutdown my machine. The next day I start the machine, Windows finalizes the upgrade and I continue working using "MyApp 1.6" from now on.

    Don't feel sorry for me. This system works perfectly for me. It appears a Linux user only has the option to save his work, close "MyApp 1.5", upgrade to "MyApp 1.6" and then continue working from "MyApp v1.6". Guess what, you can do this on Windows too.

    @boomzilla said:

    TRWTF is a modern OS that requires 3rd party software to use their own WTF-y update checkers in order to keep software updated in a non-manual fashion.
    Another troll bites the dust: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Installer. I must be Microsofts fault that Adobe has a shitty installer.



  • @ubersoldat said:

    It amazes me that after, what? 15 years? Windows systems still need to restart for every minor change. Compared with *nix systems where you can even install a RDBMS like Oracle without a restart.

    Is this a consecuence of the Windows Registry?

    Ok you're an idiot and here's why:

    1) Windows systems don't need to restart for any change, or in fact even many changes at all. However, Windows application developers (well at least the shitty ones like Adobe and Apple) either think they need to restart the system, or install "run-on-startup" services wholly unrelated to the actual application. (I know both Apple and Adobe install their own run-on-startup updater utilities, because apparently the dumbshits who work at those companies haven't yet heard about Scheduled Tasks.)

    In short: Windows doesn't need restarts; shitty software developers do. Fall to your knees and pray to your God each day that Apple and Adobe aren't writing bullshit for Linux.

    2) Most Linux updates require restarts, at least of the affected Services/Daemons, and won't tell you to do it. Which means if service Foo is using library Bar, and Bar has a nasty vulnerability, and so you update Bar... until you restart Foo, the "ghost" version of Bar still has the vulnerability. Windows has that same problem, but its explicit that a library is using a file because of how it does file-locking compared to Linux. Now you may be true that updates on Windows error on the side of restarting too often, and restarting the entire system for a library that only a couple of easily-restartable services use is overkill, but I prefer that situation to Linux updates which frequently leave you silently un-updated.

    In short: better more restarts and a secure system than less restarts and an insecure system

    3) The Windows Registry has nothing to do with any of this and even if it did, it would be an acceptable trade-off considering all of the positive services the Registry enables. Things like Linux literally cannot do.

    In short: "consequence".

    Moral of the post: STOP BUYING ADOBE AND APPLE SHIT



  • @bjolling said:

    What exactly do I lose? Suppose I'm working with "MyApp v1.5". Simultaneously I'm upgrading to "MyApp v1.6" which can happily run in the background. I don't have to stop working in "MyApp 1.5". At the end of the day, I save my work and shutdown my machine. The next day I start the machine, Windows finalizes the upgrade and I continue working using "MyApp 1.6" from now on.

    Don't feel sorry for me. This system works perfectly for me. It appears a Linux user only has the option to save his work, close "MyApp 1.5", upgrade to "MyApp 1.6" and then continue working from "MyApp v1.6". Guess what, you can do this on Windows too.

     

    I've never needed to close anything when updating my system, the updates continue in the background. Of course, they usually only take effect once I restart the app (or app that uses the library I updated) but that's expected. So the bet you lose is the one where you said " I bet you need to stop your application before you can update it. Sucks to be a Linux user."

    Incidentally, the Linux kernel can be updated without the need for a restart with something like KSplice. I've yet to see Windows do that.

     



  • @boomzilla said:

    @bjolling said:
    I feel sorry for you that you cannot use an application on Linux and install updates for it simultaneously. I bet you need to stop your application before you can update it. Sucks to be a Linux user.

    I fell sorry for you, because you'll lose the bet. Instead, you continue to use the old version until you close it / shut it down / whatever and start a new instance. Sucks to be a Windows user.

    I know you're Boomzilla and thus functionally retarded (I fell sorry for you), but how does that differ from Linux? The only practical difference is that in Linux the updated version resides on disk and the old one in memory and in Windows both are on disk. But practically speaking, and I'm aware you probably don't understand the concept of "practically speaking", it's the exact same situation. And in both cases you don't get the new library version until the program in question is restarted.

    @boomzilla said:

    TRWTF is a modern OS that requires 3rd party software to use their own WTF-y update checkers in order to keep software updated in a non-manual fashion.

    Because Windows requires that? Or... are you just plopping down random words here and hoping we won't notice that you have aphasia?


  • SockDev

    @ASheridan said:

    @curtmack said:

    Exactly. I'm sorry, but if Nvidia can upgrade my graphics card driver without restarting Windows, other companies have no excuse.
    How long have they been able to do that? Last time I installed an NVidia driver on Windows I got the usual popup asking me to restart.

    Since the updated driver model in Vista.



  • @ASheridan said:

    Incidentally, the Linux kernel can be updated without the need for a restart with something like KSplice. I've yet to see Windows do that.

    Incidentally you can clean your testicles by coating them in fish paste and dangling them in a lion's cage.

    But we don't do that for a reason.



  • @Mcoder said:

    @ubersoldat said:
    It amazes me that after, what? 15 years? Windows systems still need to restart for every minor change. Compared with *nix systems where you can even install a RDBMS like Oracle without a restart.

    Is this a consecuence of the Windows Registry?

     That's because of the file lock mechanism. Windows locks a file every time you open it, doesn't matter what you do. While *nix  only lock files when you explicitly ask for it, and define a simple interleaving mechanism for applying changes. (If you use KDE, you'll probably notice that after some upgrades you must restart it, otherwise you can't open any new program.)

    Some tasks require changing files that are kept open by system services. When that happens, you must restart Windows.

    Not exaxtly. You can specify a lock when opening a file. If the coder decides the open and lock a file, it's not Microsofts fault. Notepad++ for example can open files without locking them.

    Plenty of installers I've seen on Windows offer you the choice: "Can I close these programs/stop these services for you and avoid a reboot?"



  • @blakeyrat said:

    In short: Windows doesn't need restarts; shitty software developers do. Fall to your knees and pray to your God each day that Apple and Adobe aren't writing bullshit for Linux.
    Adobe does, but it's just as screwed up there too.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Most Linux updates require restarts, at least of the affected Services/Daemons, and won't tell you to do it. Which means if service Foo is using library Bar, and Bar has a nasty vulnerability, and so you update Bar... until you restart Foo, the "ghost" version of Bar still has the vulnerability. Windows has that same problem, but its explicit that a library is using a file because of how it does file-locking compared to Linux. Now you may be true that updates on Windows error on the side of restarting too often, and restarting the entire system for a library that only a couple of easily-restartable services use is overkill, but I prefer that situation to Linux updates which frequently leave you silently un-updated.
    Sorry, have to call bullshit on that one. I keep my machine at home on pretty much 24-7, only cycling when the power has to go out. I've updated all sorts of services and daemons on it before, andnever needed to reboot the OS. Hell, I don't even need to restart the services in question most of the time. @blakeyrat said:
    The Windows Registry has nothing to do with any of this and even if it did, it would be an acceptable trade-off considering all of the positive services the Registry enables. Things like Linux literally cannot do.

    Really? Name one thing the registry enables Windows to do that can't be done on Linux.@blakeyrat said:

    Moral of the post: STOP BUYING ADOBE AND APPLE SHIT
    +1

     



  • @Lorne Kates said:

    That it happened is a piss-off, but not surprising.

    What does "piss-off" mean in this context?

    Anyway it looks like the problem was only with WSUS. I bet they wanted to make Skype updates available to WSUS but fucked up and set the default state to "installed" instead of "uninstalled". Doesn't sound like that big a deal to me, honest mistake anybody could make.

    What I don't get is how the bank IT guy (and your IT guy) actually had Skype pushed out. They don't review updates? If you don't review updates, what the shit is the point of using WSUS in the first place? That's ALL IT'S FOR!

    @Lorne Kates said:

    Maybe I just wasn't reading Slashdot close enough that day?

    Nope

    Haha. Slashdot has been irrelevant for a decade, but usually the only thing they DO get right is calling out Microsoft. Now they can't even get that right!



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @boomzilla said:
    TRWTF is a modern OS that requires 3rd party software to use their own WTF-y update checkers in order to keep software updated in a non-manual fashion.

    Because Windows requires that? Or... are you just plopping down random words here and hoping we won't notice that you have aphasia?

    Windows Update only keeps Microsoft software up-to-date. Keeping other apps up-to-date requires those apps (that's the 3rd party bit) to perform the checks themselves.



  • @ASheridan said:

    How long have they been able to do that?
    Hmmm... at least a couple years. But srly people, you should blame who is really at fault, shitty programmers and retarded companies. MS for the most part is just being cautious, you don't need to restart but you might benefit from it.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @ASheridan said:
    Incidentally, the Linux kernel can be updated without the need for a restart with something like KSplice. I've yet to see Windows do that.

    Incidentally you can clean your testicles by coating them in fish paste and dangling them in a lion's cage.

    But we don't do that for a reason.

    Your unfortunate experience with the fish paste answers a lot of questions.

     



  • @ASheridan said:

    I've never needed to close anything when updating my system, the updates continue in the background. Of course, they usually only take effect once I restart the app (or app that uses the library I updated) but that's expected. So the bet you lose is the one where you said " I bet you need to stop your application before you can update it. Sucks to be a Linux user."

    I should have known that a little playful sarcasm wouldn't work here :-) I thought my tag was enough of a hint that I was counter-trolling. Maybe Boomzilla was "counter-counter-trolling", which just amounts to "trolling" again because of the double negative.

    Close friend of my is a real Linux lover: "Look I don't have to reboot Linux. I just 'stop daemon', 'upgrade package', 'start daemon' ".

    Me: so how is that different from me stopping a service, upgrading it and restarting the service? No reboots after that procedure either



  • @ASheridan said:

    Sorry, have to call bullshit on that one. I keep my machine at home on pretty much 24-7, only cycling when the power has to go out. I've updated all sorts of services and daemons on it before, andnever needed to reboot the OS. Hell, I don't even need to restart the services in question most of the time.

    You didn't need to? Or you weren't told to?

    Re-read my complaint. Linux updaters won't tell you you need to update even when you do. That's my complaint. Since you didn't include the most pertinent information in your little rebuttal up there, I'll just assume you didn't understand my complaint at all and are an idiot who dangles his testicles in lion cages.

    @ASheridan said:

    Really? Name one thing the registry enables Windows to do that can't be done on Linux.

    Well you can roll it up into a big "EVERY SINGLE THING ACTIVE DIRECTORY DOES BASICALLY". The problem is Linux users like you don't fucking even KNOW what's available in AD so that doesn't help. Of course it also fixes all the problems of file-based settings as well, as Raymond points out in this article I link to every time the Registery comes up and yet Linux users always come back a day later and go "derp what's with the Registry!? Derp derp!" Linux settings files still suffer from all the problems of the .ini column. (Well, except perhaps the parsing one, since Linux settings files never fucking attempted to standardize on a single format in the first place. Because it's shit.)



  • @bjolling said:

    @boomzilla said:
    @bjolling said:
    I bet you need to stop your application before you can update it. Sucks to be a Linux user.

    I fell sorry for you, because you'll lose the bet.

    What exactly do I lose?

    I don't know. What exactly did you wager when you bet?

    @bjolling said:

    @boomzilla said:
    TRWTF is a modern OS that requires 3rd party software to use their own WTF-y update checkers in order to keep software updated in a non-manual fashion.

    Another troll bites the dust: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Installer. I must be Microsofts fault that Adobe has a shitty installer.

    Are you really this clueless? Do you believe that anything you said (or linked) addresses the WTF I pointed out?



  • @ASheridan said:

    Windows Update only keeps Microsoft software up-to-date. Keeping other apps up-to-date requires those apps (that's the 3rd party bit) to perform the checks themselves.

    ... and?

    Is this going to relate to Boomzilla's sentence in some way? Is there some mental link between you two that makes it make sense ONLY TO YOU?



  • @blakeyrat said:

    What does "piss-off" mean in this context?
     

    It means I woke up to find an unauthorized program installed on my system, registered to popup at start up, and asking for Internet access. It pissed me off. I was being pithy/unintelligable.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Anyway it looks like the problem was only with WSUS. I bet they wanted to make Skype updates available to WSUS but fucked up and set the default state to "installed" instead of "uninstalled". Doesn't sound like that big a deal to me, honest mistake anybody could make.

    True, and it wasn't damaging, didn't uninstall anything, or modify programs that wasn't theirs. But all those previous three things HAVE happened with WSUS before. Given that they've fucked up with WSUS in the past, and they have a whole world full of people/litigators waiting to jump down their throat, I would have thought they would have been way, way, [b]way[/b] more careful with that "Upgrade or Install" radio button.

    ESPECIALLY given how the mantra for safety for the home PC user is "Turn on Windows Automatic Updates!" Anything that jeopordizes that trust is bad for everyone.

     @blakeyrat said:

    What I don't get is how the bank IT guy (and your IT guy) actually had Skype pushed out.

    Can't speak for the bank. This wasn't an office PC, it was my personal laptop. At home. With my wife. Hence the "wife" comment. As in literal wife, not 'married to the job' wife.

    In any case, I have both our machines set to use WSUS auto update. I suppose I could start to manually review each WSUS update, deploy on a QA environment, then eventually roll out approved updates-- but then when would I have time to play BioShock?

     



  •  @blakeyrat said:

    Re-read my complaint.

    @blakeyrat said:

    You didn't need to? Or you weren't told to?
    Re-read my post. I said I didn't need to. Jesusfucking dumbass. And you say people don't read your posts.

     @blakeyrat said:

    Of course it also fixes all the problems of file-based settings as well, as Raymond points out in this article I link to every time the Registery comes up and yet Linux users always come back a day later and go "derp what's with the Registry!? Derp derp!" Linux settings files still suffer from all the problems of the .ini column
    Well, not gonna bite; it's an intentionally joke page and it's not applicable on a lot of points with regards to Linux. I'd give you a 4/10 for a trolling attempt.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I know you're Boomzilla and thus functionally retarded (I fell sorry for you), but how does that differ from Linux?

    Haha, you found a typo. I guess you were too excited by that to notice that I was simply using bjollings ignorant trolling to respond to him (the typo was mine)?

    @blakeyrat said:

    @boomzilla said:
    TRWTF is a modern OS that requires 3rd party software to use their own WTF-y update checkers in order to keep software updated in a non-manual fashion.

    Because Windows requires that? Or... are you just plopping down random words here and hoping we won't notice that you have aphasia?

    Yes, Windows does require that, AFAIK. Do you know which part of Windows will check for and install third party software updates? And when you find it, please let Adobe, et al know, too, so they can stop deploying their WTF-y update checkers. I've mentioned this several times around here. Including a discussion about this on your thread where you demonstrated your ignorance of how all this works on a Linux distro that uses APT.



  • @boomzilla said:

    @bjolling said:
    @boomzilla said:
    TRWTF is a modern OS that requires 3rd party software to use their own WTF-y update checkers in order to keep software updated in a non-manual fashion.
    Another troll bites the dust: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Installer. I must be Microsofts fault that Adobe has a shitty installer.
    Are you really this clueless? Do you believe that anything you said (or linked) addresses the WTF I pointed out?
    It's very clear what TRWTF is, you thinking that Windows requires 3rd party software to use their own WTF-y update checkers in order to keep software updated in a non-manual fashion. Windows has at least 2 APIs (one which I used in the NT days) that 3rd party software should use, instead of rolling their own



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @ASheridan said:
    Windows Update only keeps Microsoft software up-to-date. Keeping other apps up-to-date requires those apps (that's the 3rd party bit) to perform the checks themselves.

    ... and?

    Is this going to relate to Boomzilla's sentence in some way? Is there some mental link between you two that makes it make sense ONLY TO YOU?

    Wow, is this willful ignorance, trolling, or are you really this stupid?


  • @ASheridan said:

    @blakeyrat said:

    Re-read my complaint.

    @blakeyrat said:

    You didn't need to? Or you weren't told to?
    Re-read my post. I said I didn't need to. Jesusfucking dumbass. And you say people don't read your posts.

     

    Re-read my posts! They're funny, usually de-rail the threat, and abuse the tag system! 

     



  • @bjolling said:

    It's very clear what TRWTF is, you thinking that Windows requires 3rd party software to use their own WTF-y update checkers in order to keep software updated in a non-manual fashion. Windows has at least 2 APIs (one which I used in the NT days) that 3rd party software should use, instead of rolling their own

    OK, I'll bite. What are these APIs? Why does no one appear to use them?



  • @boomzilla said:

    @bjolling said:
    It's very clear what TRWTF is, you thinking that Windows requires 3rd party software to use their own WTF-y update checkers in order to keep software updated in a non-manual fashion. Windows has at least 2 APIs (one which I used in the NT days) that 3rd party software should use, instead of rolling their own
    OK, I'll bite. What are these APIs? Why does no one appear to use them?
    Google seems very unhelpful atm to help me find back the API I used back in the NT days. I suppose that the relevant documentation on MSDN has been taken down. I'll post a link if I come across it.

    I'm actually more interested what built-in functionality Linux offers to automatically update user applications.



  • @Lorne Kates said:

    ESPECIALLY given how the mantra for safety for the home PC user is "Turn on Windows Automatic Updates!" Anything that jeopordizes that trust is bad for everyone.

    Windows Automatic Updates doesn't use WSUS. To state the obvious you seemed to have somehow missed.

    @Lorne Kates said:

    Can't speak for the bank. This wasn't an office PC, it was my personal laptop. At home. With my wife. Hence the "wife" comment. As in literal wife, not 'married to the job' wife.

    Then why the fuck is a WSUS server involved?

    @Lorne Kates said:

    In any case, I have both our machines set to use WSUS auto update.

    Why?

    @Lorne Kates said:

    I suppose I could start to manually review each WSUS update, deploy on a QA environment, then eventually roll out approved updates-- but then when would I have time to play BioShock?

    The entire fucking point of using WSUS is to enable you to manually review updates before they get deployed. If you're not reviewing the updates, why the holy shit in demon fucking hell are you using WSUS?

    What is WRONG with people on this board?



  • @ASheridan said:

    Re-read my post. I said I didn't need to.

    Yes I know you said that, but I don't believe you're enough of a loser to actually examine every single shared library for every single process running on your computer for every single update, I think you're simply going by the package manager telling you "whelp! You don't have to update! Lookie that!" instead of actually not having to update. You haven't demonstrated otherwise.

    @ASheridan said:

    Well, not gonna bite; it's an intentionally joke page

    No it's not. Why would you think so? Every point he makes is valid.



  • @bjolling said:

    Google seems very unhelpful atm to help me find back the API I used back in the NT days. I suppose that the relevant documentation on MSDN has been taken down. I'll post a link if I come across it.

    duckduckgo.com has no trouble finding something. It was called the Windows NT Setup API. Which was being replaced with the "New Windows Installer" as it's called in this article



  • @boomzilla said:


    Yes, Windows does require that, AFAIK. Do you know which part of Windows will check for and install third party software updates? And when you find it, please let Adobe, et al know, too, so they can stop deploying their WTF-y update checkers. I've mentioned this several times around here. Including a discussion about this on your thread where you demonstrated your ignorance of how all this works on a Linux distro that uses APT.

    The problem with APT or any Linux package manager is that you're limited to whatever whims a particular distro has about what software to put on there. God forbid your distro goes obsolete (like Ubuntu after a year) and stops providing updates until you update the OS itself (what does this even mean in Linux terms, I've updated several core components (Linux, coreutils, X, Gnome) from APT but suddenly I need to upgrade "Ubuntu" and that's different?)

    Also, Linux has had a registry for years now.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Wow, is this willful ignorance, trolling, or are you really this stupid?

    So you literally believe that the Chrome developers created a WTFy update checker and they just don't actually use it? They use their good seamless one instead?

    It's not willful ignorance, it's me trying to figure out WHAT THE FUCK YOU'RE SAYING because I'm (generously) assuming you're not saying something that any moron could see was obviously incorrect in about 27 seconds of using Windows. When you say things so contrary to reality you should be prepared for the "WTF" response.

    I think the problem is you don't know what the word "requires" means? Maybe? I'm sticking with aphasia.



  • @bjolling said:

    I'm actually more interested what built-in functionality Linux offers to automatically update user applications.
    Linux uses application repositories. Think of them like an app store if you will. So far the only app I've found that isn't in a repository is Minecraft. Everything else I ever need exists in them. The OS keeps me notified when anything has available updates, which I can manage all from one place.

    Now, compare this to Windows, where apps have to keep themselves up-to-date (I'll bite on the update API when you find a link). Some of these do it from a constantly running service (the like of which people on this thread are complaining about) while others do a check when you start the app. Either way, it's pretty easy for something to fall way behind in update land and you not even notice.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Yes I know you said that, but I don't believe you're enough of a loser to actually examine every single shared library for every single process running on your computer for every single update, I think you're simply going by the package manager telling you "whelp! You don't have to update! Lookie that!" instead of actually not having to update. You haven't demonstrated otherwise.
    Read the post you dumbfuck. Read what I said. Why is it so difficult for you to actually read the post. You don't seem to understand the point I'm making. I won't try and explain it to you again, just re-read what I already wrote.@blakeyrat said:
    No it's not. Why would you think so? Every point he makes is valid.

     OK, here are just a few points to illustrate:

     "INI files don't support Unicode.
    Even though there are Unicode functions of the private profile
    functions, they end up just writing ANSI text to the INI file.
    (There is a wacked out way you can create a Unicode INI file,
    but you have to step outside the API in order to do it
    .)
    This wasn't an issue in 16-bit Windows since 16-bit Windows
    didn't support Unicode either!" -Unix/Linux has supported unicode for a long, long time. Windows was way behind in this regard, which explains the limitation in Windows.

    "Multiple writers to an INI file can result in data loss.
    Consider two threads that are trying to update an INI file.
    If they are running simultaneously, you can get this:" - Yeah, because nobody ever locks a file that is being read with the intention of being written to

    "INI files are limited to 32KB in size." - Are you fucking kidding me? I've got tons of .ini files that are bigger than 32KB, the php.ini file is one for a start.

    I won't even both with any of the other points, you get the idea.



  • @ASheridan said:

    (I'll bite on the update API when you find a link).
    Refer to my previous post. I was editing it and adding links on the fly. duckduckgo even found a helpfile on the API http://www.masmforum.com/winhelp_files/SETUPAPI.HLP

    Obviously this one is deprecated and replaced now, but it's the one I remember from when I added automatic update support to one of my applications. The only manual bit that an application needs to do is check some online repository to see if something has changed, then download the changes and queue them using the Setup API. The application can always decide that a certain service needs stopping first so that the Setup API will not require a reboot.



  • @bjolling said:

    @ASheridan said:

    (I'll bite on the update API when you find a link).
    Refer to my previous post. I was editing it and adding links on the fly. duckduckgo even found a helpfile on the API http://www.masmforum.com/winhelp_files/SETUPAPI.HLP

    Obviously this one is deprecated and replaced now, but it's the one I remember from when I added automatic update support to one of my applications. The only manual bit that an application needs to do is check some online repository to check if something has changed and then download the changes and queue them using the Setup API. The application can always decide that a certain change requires that a service needs stopping first so that the Setup API will not require a reboot.

     

    I guess then we're back to the WTF of the 3rd party apps not using that, although I do find it strange that I've not seen one app use this, ever.

     


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