Oblivious Parent



  • I was just coming out of a fairly large office building with several big stores on the lower levels. They have one of those automated revolving doors; the kind that when it senses people, spins quickly on its own.

    There was a steady stream of folks going in and out so the door was spinning at speed. As I was coming out, I see a woman with a 3-ish year old in front of her - going in. She is not holding him. He steps partially into the opening when the rubber door edge catches him and wedges him against the plexiglass side. It must have caught him good because the door jolted to a halt. He screamed and started thrashing. Three of us grabbed the door and wrenched it back to free the kid.

    WTF is wrong with people? Children, especially little ones, need WATCHING, HOLDING and GUIDING!

     



  • Darwinism in action.  Too bad it wasn't a bus instead of a door and the parent instead of the child.



  • Apparently (I have no personal experience in this matter) quite a lot of parents these days treat young children pretty much as if they're adults. Plenty of stories of parents saying things like, "What had we agreed about this?" to five-year-olds instead of simply, "No" […], etc.



  • @Gurth said:

    Apparently (I have no personal experience in this matter) quite a lot of parents these days treat young children pretty much as if they're adults. Plenty of stories of parents saying things like, "What had we agreed about this?" to five-year-olds instead of simply, "No" […], etc.
    I partially agree with that...  Yes, at the end of the day, you are the parent and what you say must go.  However you'll have an equally big problem on your hands if you treat kids like they're stupid.  They're pretty damn clever, but lack any foresight.  I find that saying "get down from that chair because you can fall and you won't be able to go to the park tomorrow" works much better than just saying "No!  Get down from that chair!".  There is a balance to be struck, and it's somewhere between reasoning with someone who has a 10 second attention span and totalitarianism.



  • @C-Octothorpe said:

    @Gurth said:
    Apparently (I have no personal experience in this matter) quite a lot of parents these days treat young children pretty much as if they're adults. Plenty of stories of parents saying things like, "What had we agreed about this?" to five-year-olds instead of simply, "No" […], etc.
    I partially agree with that...  Yes, at the end of the day, you are the parent and what you say must go.  However you'll have an equally big problem on your hands if you treat kids like they're stupid.  They're pretty damn clever, but lack any foresight.  I find that saying "get down from that chair because you can fall and you won't be able to go to the park tomorrow" works much better than just saying "No!  Get down from that chair!".  There is a balance to be struck, and it's somewhere between reasoning with someone who has a 10 second attention span and totalitarianism.
    Explaining to your kid why you are saying no is a good thing so that hopefully one day they can use their brain to figure out the possible consequences of their actions.  However, some kids are indeed very clever and they fully know why they should not but don't care, at which point a straight 'no' is plenty.

    On the upside the kid has learned two simple but important lessons from this (hopefully):  Be observant of your surroundings and dont stand in the way of moving objects that are bigger than you.



  • @Gurth said:

    Apparently (I have no personal experience in this matter) quite a lot of parents these days treat young children pretty much as if they're adults. Plenty of stories of parents saying things like, "What had we agreed about this?" to five-year-olds instead of simply, "No" […], etc.

    How exactly did you expect them to figure out what to do? Tell them "Yes" or "no" every single time until they're adults?



  • There is a tremendous difference in the reasoning capabilities of a 3-, 5-, and 15-year old. When they're little, it's better for them to be taught to just obey. Kids aren't idiots, but at that age, thinking even a moment ahead is indeed a painfully absent skill. And seriously, reasoning and debating with them is futile until they understand that kind of logic, and that doesn't kick in until, oh, maybe 8ish? And even then it's pretty flaky. Now, when they are teenagers, that's a different story. But I haven't gotten that far yet...

    Nevertheless, telling a kid why to do something is almost entirely independent of smacking the kid around until he or she obeys. In my experience, both are necessary, but the latter moreso.

    But in regards to the OP, too bad about the little kid. I'm kind of surprised the revolving door didn't automatically shut off and go into a neutral gear (so to speak) at that kind of resistance, kind of like the way an elevator door does. So afterward the drama, did the parent watch, hold, and guide the little one?



  • @Anketam said:

    However, some kids are indeed very clever and they fully know why they should not but don't care, at which point a straight 'no' is plenty.
    100% agree, and I actually meant to include that as well but didn't want to create WALL-O-TEXT.



  • @Gurth said:

    Apparently (I have no personal experience in this matter) quite a lot of parents these days treat young children pretty much as if they're adults. Plenty of stories of parents saying things like, "What had we agreed about this?" to five-year-olds instead of simply, "No" […], etc.
     

    Five year olds have the capacity for understanding agreements.



  • @Xyro said:

    Kids aren't idiots

    Yes they are. All of them. Some may be smart for their age, or smarter than you expect them to be, but they're still idiots.



  • @boomzilla said:

    @Xyro said:
    Kids aren't idiots
    Yes they are. All of them. Some may be smart for their age, or smarter than you expect them to be, but they're still idiots.
    Then explain how they've been trolling their parents for thousands of years...

    And dont' answer with "because murder is illegal".



  • @C-Octothorpe said:

    @boomzilla said:
    @Xyro said:
    Kids aren't idiots

    Yes they are. All of them. Some may be smart for their age, or smarter than you expect them to be, but they're still idiots.

    Then explain how they've been trolling their parents for thousands of years...

    And dont' answer with "because murder is illegal".

    Your post confuses me. Are you saying that trolling is not consistent with idiocy?

    I remember being a kid and being amazed at how often my parents could figure out what I was up to. I thought I was so sneaky. Now, I'm amazed at how transparent my kids are, and how they cannot understand why it's obvious just what they're up to.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Are you saying that trolling is not consistent with idiocy?
     

    Well, there's me.

     @boomzilla said:

    they cannot understand why it's obvious just what they're up to.

    Just you wait until they develop a more advanced model of Theory Of Mind.



  • @boomzilla said:

    @C-Octothorpe said:
    @boomzilla said:
    @Xyro said:
    Kids aren't idiots
    Yes they are. All of them. Some may be smart for their age, or smarter than you expect them to be, but they're still idiots.
    Then explain how they've been trolling their parents for thousands of years...

     

    And dont' answer with "because murder is illegal".

    Your post confuses me. Are you saying that trolling is not consistent with idiocy?

    I remember being a kid and being amazed at how often my parents could figure out what I was up to. I thought I was so sneaky. Now, I'm amazed at how transparent my kids are, and how they cannot understand why it's obvious just what they're up to.

    That's true, however the angle/joke I was trying to make is that even though (according to you) they're stupid, they can manage to drive you completely nuts (at times).  Granted, they're not experienced enough to wait for you to leave the room before trying to get at the candy, but they know how to drive any parent off the edge.

    This is similar to adults who think that kids are never listening or don't hear you, which is absolute bullshit, but it helps adults maintain a feeling of superiority.  Underestimating your enemy is the biggest mistake one can make. :)



  • @C-Octothorpe said:


    That's true, however the angle/joke I was trying to make is that even though (according to you) they're stupid, they can manage to drive you completely nuts (at times).  Granted, they're not experienced enough to wait for you to leave the room before trying to get at the candy, but they know how to drive any parent off the edge.

    This is similar to adults who think that kids are never listening or don't hear you, which is absolute bullshit, but it helps adults maintain a feeling of superiority.  Underestimating your enemy is the biggest mistake one can make. :)

    Yes.



  • Some kids learn by doing, and having your femur sticking out the side of your leg is pretty educational.



  • @Xyro said:

    There is a tremendous difference in the reasoning capabilities of a 3-, 5-, and 15-year old. When they're little, it's better for them to be taught to just obey. Kids aren't idiots, but at that age, thinking even a moment ahead is indeed a painfully absent skill. And seriously, reasoning and debating with them is futile until they understand that kind of logic, and that doesn't kick in until, oh, maybe 8ish? And even then it's pretty flaky. Now, when they are teenagers, that's a different story. But I haven't gotten that far yet...

    Nevertheless, telling a kid why to do something is almost entirely independent of smacking the kid around until he or she obeys. In my experience, both are necessary, but the latter moreso.

    But in regards to the OP, too bad about the little kid. I'm kind of surprised the revolving door didn't automatically shut off and go into a neutral gear (so to speak) at that kind of resistance, kind of like the way an elevator door does. So afterward the drama, did the parent watch, hold, and guide the little one?


    (my bolding)
    1/10...
    I'd usually take the time to edit the "not-so-stupid" out, but i couldn't find any...
    I have a three year old boy. I'm pretty sure that he understands agreements, or atleast consequences... "agreements" like if you do x with y, then i'm going to take y away, usually work (atleast for a while until he forgets the "agreement")... i'm not saying they're geniuses, but they are freaky smart ... He'll usually find a way around his problems... eg. some evil person put his foam sword away because he was a little pest beating me with it... he'll just find a ball and throw that repeadetly atop of the cabinet where i "hid" the sword, and in the end usually get the sword down (if i don't intervene)... Or if the tablet won't turn on he'll look trough some bags until he finds the charger, and plug the charger in himself... (neither of theese things were something we have instructed him in)
    age of reason: http://www.positivediscipline.com/articles/Time_Out_for_Children.html
    childhood http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood

    Disclamer: I'm quite drunk at the moment


    screw CS... it's nice that when it for some arbitrary reason refuses to actually display my post, i just decides to show the latest post, but no error message as to what went wrong.. (i moved a bit of the formatting around, that seemed to fix the damn problem...) It'll only post mabye 12% of the times i try, is it completely arbitrary?



  • @Xyro said:

    But in regards to the OP, too bad about the little kid. I'm kind of surprised the revolving door didn't automatically shut off and go into a neutral gear (so to speak) at that kind of resistance, kind of like the way an elevator door does. So afterward the drama, did the parent watch, hold, and guide the little one?
    When the door smashed into the kid's head, it jammed against him. I think it stopped pushing to turn, but it had no release, so the kid was wedged in. It took three big guys to jerk it back past whatever locking mechanism was holding it in place.

    After the kid calmed down, the mother put him down, and he bolted ahead to get on the escalator - way ahead of his mother. Because little kids never have problems getting off escalators by themselves at the other end.



  •  Don't know about your side of the pond, in the UK those revolving doors have ultra-fine stop sensors -If you touch any part of the door as it turns, it stops in a instant - I've seen some blown in leaves stop the door!



  • @swayde said:

    It'll only post mabye 12% of the times i try, is it completely arbitrary?
     

    It posted all of them al the time. The POST went through, but the return page didn't, apparently, for you, for some reason. I don't care how drunk you are, I expect you to understand how stateless HTTP works.



  • @Cratig said:

     Don't know about your side of the pond, in the UK those revolving doors have ultra-fine stop sensors -If you touch any part of the door as it turns, it stops in a instant - I've seen some blown in leaves stop the door!

    The doors are similar here (though not quite that sensitive) - come too close to any part, and it'll stop immediately, then slowly move back for a few seconds before stopping again.@dhromed said:
    It posted all of them al the time. The POST went through, but the return page didn't, apparently, for you, for some reason. I don't care how drunk you are, I expect you to understand how stateless HTTP works.
    It's just CS being a dick - sometimes the new post won't show up for a minute or two, and reloading doesn't help.



  • @ender said:

    @Cratig said:
    Don't know about your side of the pond, in the UK those revolving doors have ultra-fine stop sensors -If you touch any part of the door as it turns, it stops in a instant - I've seen some blown in leaves stop the door!

    The doors are similar here (though not quite that sensitive) - come too close to any part, and it'll stop immediately, then slowly move back for a few seconds before stopping again.

    So is there like a single vendor that sells a single model of door that your respective tyrannical governments force you to use or something?



  •  I should try some autorevolvers here. Preferrably with an object that can stand in for an arm. 

    Elevator doors vary wildly in safety sensitivity and placement of the break-contact. The doors to my building re-open when you interrupt the contact located just inside the elevator doors, but if you take too long it will start screaming and just repeatedly bash into whatever's blocking the doors.

    Good fun if you're trying to move your stuff!



  • @dhromed said:

    I should try some autorevolvers here. Preferrably with an object that can stand in for an arm.

    I recommend a leg. They're quite similar, but generally a bit stronger.



  • @boomzilla said:

    So is there like a single vendor that sells a single model of door that your respective tyrannical governments force you to use or something?
    I have no idea about vendors, but I've seen this happen several times (though I admit that it might all have been at the same shop chain, so it could've been the same vendor everywhere - or maybe it's just that the safety standards require such behaviour).



  • @boomzilla said:

    @dhromed said:
    I should try some autorevolvers here. Preferrably with an object that can stand in for an arm.

    I recommend a leg. They're quite similar, but generally a bit stronger.

     

    Or, use my penis.

    They're quite similar, but generally a bit stronger.

    Generally, right?



  • @dhromed said:

    Generally, right?
     

    Not if yours is composed of rusty iron.



  • I made a kid cry at the airport last night. I think he was 2, since he was in someone's lap on the flight. He was shrieking that he wasn't getting his turn at angry birds. That ear-splitting shriek that I assume is necessary for children to echolocate. And after he got his turn, he shrieked again until he got another turn.

    The mom took the older kid to the bathroom before the flight, and the shrieking thing was left with his father. Dad there had a personal pizza and a cup with ice and a drink of some sort in it. Kid stomps on the pizza. Dad says stop it. No. Kid stomps on the pizza again. Dad does the same thing. Kid stomps on the pizza, kicks over the drink which goes all over the floor. Dad smacks kid on the (diaper covered) bottom, and cleans up the mess, moving the mostly empty cup two chairs away. Dad walks away to throw away napkins and ruined pizza. Kid makes a beeline to kick the cup over again.

    I'm sitting across from them, watching. Knowing the dad wouldn't be able to catch the little shit in time, and using the voice that I know kids don't like (the 'mom voice' or 'dad voice' depending on your gender), I said "NO. STOP." I didn't yell. Just said it firmly. Kid broke down into tears and fell on the chair crying.


    Served the little dickhead right.



  • @tweek said:

    I made a kid cry at the airport last night. I think he was 2, since he was in someone's lap on the flight. He was shrieking that he wasn't getting his turn at angry birds. That ear-splitting shriek that I assume is necessary for children to echolocate. And after he got his turn, he shrieked again until he got another turn.

    The mom took the older kid to the bathroom before the flight, and the shrieking thing was left with his father. Dad there had a personal pizza and a cup with ice and a drink of some sort in it. Kid stomps on the pizza. Dad says stop it. No. Kid stomps on the pizza again. Dad does the same thing. Kid stomps on the pizza, kicks over the drink which goes all over the floor. Dad smacks kid on the (diaper covered) bottom, and cleans up the mess, moving the mostly empty cup two chairs away. Dad walks away to throw away napkins and ruined pizza. Kid makes a beeline to kick the cup over again.

    I'm sitting across from them, watching. Knowing the dad wouldn't be able to catch the little shit in time, and using the voice that I know kids don't like (the 'mom voice' or 'dad voice' depending on your gender), I said "NO. STOP." I didn't yell. Just said it firmly. Kid broke down into tears and fell on the chair crying.

    Served the little dickhead right.

     

    I once made a kid cry at Wal-Mart.  Just by being there.

    I was in the checkout line with my cart, waiting my turn, when Clueless Mother and Clueless Child approach.  Neither is watching the other, and neither is looking the same direction they're walking.  Kid walks face first into the side of my stationary shopping cart and starts bawling.  Mother looks at me like I hit her precious darling in the face with a shovel.

     This was long enough ago that Clueless Child is now probably driving around the Wally World parking lot paying the same amount of attention to his surroundings as he was inside the store that day.  I wonder if he'll look up from his phone when he runs over some pedestrian long enough to start crying again?

     



  • @tweek said:

    Served the little dickhead right.
    Amateur.

    http://www.bash.org/?777977



  • @boomzilla said:

    @Xyro said:
    Kids aren't idiots

    Yes they are. All of them. Some may be smart for their age, or smarter than you expect them to be, but they're still idiots.

    You're mistaking "idiocy" for "inexperience". Because that's what it actually is. Or do you also call trainees idiots just because they haven't been told yet as to what is what in your company?

    In fact, I could also call you an "idiot" because you obviously failed to educate yourself on neuropsychology and the brain development of infants and children.



  • @Rhywden said:

    @boomzilla said:
    @Xyro said:
    Kids aren't idiots

    Yes they are. All of them. Some may be smart for their age, or smarter than you expect them to be, but they're still idiots.

    You're mistaking "idiocy" for "inexperience". Because that's what it actually is. Or do you also call trainees idiots just because they haven't been told yet as to what is what in your company?

    In fact, I could also call you an "idiot" because you obviously failed to educate yourself on neuropsychology and the brain development of infants and children.

    I didn't mistake anything. This isn't simply inexperience. It's an inability to think, as your last sentence implies that you understand. So now I'm saying you're an idiot for both agreeing and disagreeing with me and not even noticing. Someday, perhaps, you'll have kids and then you'll experience just how correct I am.



  • @tweek said:

    the 'mom voice' or 'dad voice' depending on your gender)
     

    In my dog circles, we call that the Voice of God.  Dogs respond to it pretty well, or at least sensitive breeds do.  It's hard not to fall down laughing when someone yells at the hound who then gives the most wounded, "sheesh, you don't have to YELL at me" expression on it's face.

    Besides that response, the other common response seems to be a tail-wagging, ears in a flying-nun position (half up, with tips pointed to the sides), and sparkly-laughing-eyed "what, me?".



  • @jetcitywoman said:

    @tweek said:

    the 'mom voice' or 'dad voice' depending on your gender)
     

    In my dog circles, we call that the Voice of God.  Dogs respond to it pretty well, or at least sensitive breeds do.  It's hard not to fall down laughing when someone yells at the hound who then gives the most wounded, "sheesh, you don't have to YELL at me" expression on it's face.

    Besides that response, the other common response seems to be a tail-wagging, ears in a flying-nun position (half up, with tips pointed to the sides), and sparkly-laughing-eyed "what, me?".



    As someone who lives with a shiba, I'll tell you that voice generally gets an ear flick in your direction if you're more than 5 feet away, and a cowering "don't beat me" crouch if you're closer (fyi, we don't beat the dog, she just acts like it when we yell at her). I think she thinks if we're more than arm's reach and a half away, we must be yelling at the cats.



  • @tweek said:

    As someone who lives with a shiba, I'll tell you that voice generally gets an ear flick in your direction if you're more than 5 feet away, and a cowering "don't beat me" crouch if you're closer (fyi, we don't beat the dog, she just acts like it when we yell at her). I think she thinks if we're more than arm's reach and a half away, we must be yelling at the cats.

    My kid does the same thing, although farther than 5 feet away is often simply ignored.



  • @boomzilla said:

    @tweek said:
    As someone who lives with a shiba, I'll tell you that voice generally gets an ear flick in your direction if you're more than 5 feet away, and a cowering "don't beat me" crouch if you're closer (fyi, we don't beat the dog, she just acts like it when we yell at her). I think she thinks if we're more than arm's reach and a half away, we must be yelling at the cats.
    My kid does the same thing, although farther than 5 feet away is often simply ignored.
    When that happens to me, I usually do the "One.... TWO....  THR...  ah, good".  The only problem is that you really have to commit to it and sound REALLY pissed off, otherwise you may as well whisper.



  • @C-Octothorpe said:

    When that happens to me, I usually do the "One.... TWO....  THR...  ah, good".  The only problem is that you really have to commit to it and sound REALLY pissed off, otherwise you may as well whisper.

    Yep. But then you get to the point where you're counting for every single thing, and the count becomes silent for a while, with punishment immediate. Though my wife or I can count across a noisy room (or store, pool, etc) just by starting to count with fingers.



  • @boomzilla said:

    @C-Octothorpe said:
    When that happens to me, I usually do the "One.... TWO....  THR...  ah, good".  The only problem is that you really have to commit to it and sound REALLY pissed off, otherwise you may as well whisper.
    Yep. But then you get to the point where you're counting for every single thing, and the count becomes silent for a while, with punishment immediate. Though my wife or I can count across a noisy room (or store, pool, etc) just by starting to count with fingers.
    I don't overuse it because I know it's a matter of time before I get to THREE, and at that point, I wouldn't know what to do.



  • @C-Octothorpe said:

    I don't overuse it because I know it's a matter of time before I get to THREE, and at that point, I wouldn't know what to do.

    Just keep counting. By the time you get to 6 or 7, he'll be so confused all bad behavior will stop.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @C-Octothorpe said:
    I don't overuse it because I know it's a matter of time before I get to THREE, and at that point, I wouldn't know what to do.

    Just keep counting. By the time you get to 6 or 7, he'll be so confused all bad behavior will stop.

     

    And next time?

    My 2 year old loves counting, so when I do the "one, two, thr..." he usually starts counting with me. At least that also usually means he stops doing his bad thing too.

    (My "three" is picking him up and putting him into his room and closing the door. He hates that.)



  • @Zemm said:

    And next time?

    Count to 8. Duh. Do I have to do all your thinking for you?



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @Zemm said:
    And next time?

    Count to 8. Duh. Do I have to do all your thinking for you?

    What if I run out of numbers?



  • @Zemm said:

    My "three" is picking him up and putting him into his room and closing the door. He hates that.

    Have your reversed the door knob yet so it locks from the outside? That was the only way to keep my son in his room at that age.



  •  A good starting point for the teaching or arithmetic series!



  • @Ben L. said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    @Zemm said:
    And next time?

    Count to 8. Duh. Do I have to do all your thinking for you?

    What if I run out of numbers?
     

    Start with Cantor sets.



  • @dhromed said:

    @Ben L. said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    @Zemm said:
    And next time?

    Count to 8. Duh. Do I have to do all your thinking for you?

    What if I run out of numbers?
     

    Start with Cantor sets.


    What are talking about?, you can't run out of numbers, unless you mean this ones www.imdb.com/title/tt0433309/ and I think everybody was gratefull for that.



  • @serguey123 said:

    @dhromed said:
    @Ben L. said:
    What if I run out of numbers?

    Start with Cantor sets.

    What are talking about?, you can't run out of numbers, unless you mean this ones www.imdb.com/title/tt0433309/ and I think everybody was gratefull for that.

    Sure you can. Just because there are more numbers available somewhere, doesn't mean that I can't run out of numbers. It's like burying dead hookers in your back yard. Sure, there are more places to dig somewhere, but I've just run out of room.



  • boomzilla, google adsense recommends a wine cellar for your hooker problem.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Sure you can. Just because there are more numbers available somewhere, doesn't mean that I can't run out of numbers. It's like burying dead hookers in your back yard. Sure, there are more places to dig somewhere, but I've just run out of room.
     

    The solution is to account for more variables. You either need to slow your rate of hooker burying, or increase their rate of decomposition. Or look at alternate disposal methods, but like the voice in my head always says, "Churn before burn"



  •  If you ferment them, you can produce some excellent wine.


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