We'll test it after it's deployed



  • We're in the middle of a multi-group deployment. I'm on a conference call with 20+ people.

    Another team forgot to do testing, so it's holding everyone else up.

    Some high level person blurts out, officially: just deploy it, and do the QA testing after it's deployed.

    wow



  • @snoofle said:

    and do the QA testing after it's deployed.
     

    Look on the bright side - once you deploy it live, look at just how many people you've got doing all that testing for you! Sure they'll all have constructive feedback to provide about the quality of the product!

    img:facepalm.jpg

    img:y_u_no_test.gif



  • @snoofle said:

    Another team forgot to do testing, so it's holding everyone else up.Some high level person blurts out, officially: just deploy it, and do the QA testing after it's deployed.

     

    As in "Manager's kid brother forgot to QA, so just deploy it; we can blame the bugs on the programmers."

     



  • @AndyCanfield said:

    As in "Manager's kid brother forgot to QA, so just deploy it; we can blame the bugs on the programmers."
     

    You can blame the programmers for putting the bugs in, but I'd happily blame the Manager's kid bro for not testing to determine the effects these bugs could have (if any) when the code goes into production.

    There's a reason we have testing, after all - no matter how they wanna spin it, the quality of the released product is directly influenced by testing and omitting testing simply indicates they didn't care.



  • @snoofle said:

    We're in the middle of a multi-group deployment. I'm on a conference call with 20+ people.

    Another team forgot to do testing, so it's holding everyone else up.

    Some high level person blurts out, officially: just deploy it, and do the QA testing after it's deployed.

    wow

    Your company is on the Path of Success:

    1. Stop doing QA
    2. Let power users do free technical support for your product and give them an official acronym like "MVP"
    3. Setup a bug tracker website, call it Connect and redirect anyone who complains about a problem to that website (including MVPs)
    4. Focus your efforts on building irrelevant operating systems designed exclusively for mobile devices even if your main market is desktops and laptops


  • @Speakerphone Dude said:


    Your company is on the Path of Success:

    1. Stop doing QA
    2. Let power users do free technical support for your product and give them an official acronym like "MVP"
    3. Setup a bug tracker website, call it Connect and redirect anyone who complains about a problem to that website (including MVPs)
    4. Focus your efforts on building irrelevant operating systems designed exclusively for mobile devices even if your main market is desktops and laptops

     

    Microsoft still does QA.  The equivalent to this scenario would be if they just plopped out one of the early betas as the RTM version.  MVPs get more than an acronym (we also get this nifty crystal thingamajig*). As for 3, I don't see how a bug tracker is a bad thing. Do you think they shouldn't have a bug tracker? Should they not track bugs? Should they not try to get all bug reports in one place in a consistent format? What are you trying to say here? If somebody REALLY wants to escalate a bug, they could go to one of the MVP summits and talk directly to the product team about it.

      And... well actually I've not tried win8 yet but the last point could very well be completely accurate. I'm trying to reserve judgement until I've actually used it, personally.

     

    *Worst case scenario, free paperweight!

     



  • @BC_Programmer said:

    MVPs get more than an acronym (we also get this nifty crystal thingamajig*).

    Cool, we've got ourselves an MVP.

    Hey if I give you a 4$ ring, a secret handshake and a direct access to my product team in India (Sanjit and Samir), could you take the night shift on my helpdesk and support the users of my iEbayWatchListFree iPhone app on the phpbb forum configured by my Community and Social Networks Team Lead and VP of QA (Sanjit)? You would also have to continuously get rid of the p0rn spam on the forum because while Sanjit is a great guy he tends to forget things like enabling content moderation. Who knows, maybe after a few years you could get an opportunity to join the development team (Samir is a bit of a wuss but I heard he does a terrific tandoori chicken).



  • @Speakerphone Dude said:

    Your company is on the Path of Success:

    1. Stop doing QA
    2. Let power users do free technical support for your product and give them an official acronym like "MVP"
    3. Setup a bug tracker website, call it Connect and redirect anyone who complains about a problem to that website (including MVPs)
    4. Focus your efforts on building irrelevant operating systems designed exclusively for mobile devices even if your main market is desktops and laptops

    Are you seriously suggesting Microsoft doesn't do QA? Seriously?

    ... is there a website where non-delusional IT people gather?



  • @Speakerphone Dude said:

    @BC_Programmer said:

    MVPs get more than an acronym (we also get this nifty crystal thingamajig*).

    Cool, we've got ourselves an MVP.

    Hey if I give you a 4$ ring, a secret handshake and a direct access to my product team in India (Sanjit and Samir), could you take the night shift on my helpdesk and support the users of my iEbayWatchListFree iPhone app on the phpbb forum configured by my Community and Social Networks Team Lead and VP of QA (Sanjit)? You would also have to continuously get rid of the p0rn spam on the forum because while Sanjit is a great guy he tends to forget things like enabling content moderation. Who knows, maybe after a few years you could get an opportunity to join the development team (Samir is a bit of a wuss but I heard he does a terrific tandoori chicken).

      

    1: I only got an award. I got it "after" what they deemed the award for (whatever the fuck that is, apparently I got it for C#, which baffles my mind, really), so it wasn't like they said "hey, help people for a year and we'll give you this nifty trinket". Just one day they were like "hey, you won this" and I was like, "k". And waited for the E-mail telling me they had made a horrible mistake and that I hadn't or something, but then it showed up in the mail and I had clearly beaten the system.

    2. I didn't even become a Member of any MS-hosted site until after I got the award... only to realize it's completely dead anyway. I'm not even a moderator on any of the sites I do frequent, unless having MVP gives you moderator powers on the MS forum they linked me too, which I doubt.  surely your passive-aggressive scorn applies to the moderators on this forum just as much as it would in your fictitious scenario.

    3. There are forums and other sites where people can get help for every single application or programming language you can think of. Hell there are still people helping each other with that freakin Clipper thing from like 30 years ago. If somebody asks a question in the "Coding Help" if TheDailyWTF relating to a MS-created language, are they doing Microsoft's "support" work? Is that how it works? Should all Delphi-related blogs, articles, and forums be shut down because they are "doing Embarcedaro's (or however it's spelled) Job"? What about Java? are developers who devote their time to helping others really morons for doing Oracle's tech support for free? Or maybe, they, you know, want to help other people with their Java programming issues. It's ironic, because on the opposite end of the spectrum, you have Open Source, which many people like to consider a community that helps, and this is some sort of pinnacle of software ideals. And yet, somehow, that idea of "community" is not allowed to translate to any commercial product userbase.

     At it's core, it's a slippery slope argument. It applies equally to pretty much any software product, since they all have their own communities, forums, people blogging about "hey here's how I got X working in Y".




  • @BC_Programmer said:

    surely your passive-aggressive scorn applies to the moderators on this forum

    Wait a minute, there are moderators in this forum? I guess you are right because I saw a few spam posts going away but I never noticed a post being removed because the content was unpleasant (and I'm not meaning only mines).

    @BC_Programmer said:

    Should all Delphi-related blogs, articles, and forums be shut down because they are "doing Embarcedaro's (or however it's spelled) Job"?

    No, they should be shut down because Delphi sucks.

    @BC_Programmer said:

    It's ironic, because on the opposite end of the spectrum, you have Open Source, which many people like to consider a community that helps, and this is some sort of pinnacle of software ideals. And yet, somehow, that idea of "community" is not allowed to translate to any commercial product userbase.

    Something that makes sense on one end of a spectrum and does not make sense on the other end? That does not qualify as "ironic", it's perfectly normal. The open source community is working hard to make FOSS that anyone can use while Microsoft is working hard to make money and have more people buy their products. It's totally up to you to help Microsoft make more money but don't expect a Nobel prize for that. It's like going to Walmart and pick up litter in their parking lot for free to "help fellow Walmart customers". If Walmart hands you down a Walmart t-shirt afterwards and call you an MVP then congratulations but don't expect people to be impressed because you could have put your skills to a better use.

    The only reason that could really explain doing MVP work is to gain visibility and build a consulting business or try to get hired by Microsoft. This plan could work but one should be mindful of the cost in lost opportunities for all those hours spent supporting Microsoft products and should make sure that this is a good business approach (which I doubt).



  • @Speakerphone Dude said:

    @BC_Programmer said:
    surely your passive-aggressive scorn applies to the moderators on this forum

    Wait a minute, there are moderators in this forum? I guess you are right because I saw a few spam posts going away but I never noticed a post being removed because the content was unpleasant (and I'm not meaning only mines).

    That's why they aren't called censors.


  • @blakeyrat said:

    ... is there a website where non-delusional IT people gather?
     

    Sure, though i can't post a URL here, as it kinda defeats the point of not having delusional people there.

     



  • The first rule of Fight Club...



  • @blakeyrat said:

    is there a website where non-delusional IT people gather?
     

    I wouldn't know, I haven't met any.

    These are people who chose to work in IT after all.

     



  • @DCRoss said:

    These are people who chose to work in IT after all.
     

    Obligatory cartoon:




  • @Speakerphone Dude said:

    No, they should be shut down because Delphi sucks.

    Obviously facetious, but that's hardly a reason to have things shut down. I mean, if we did that there would be nothing left on the internet at all, because for everything, somebody, somewhere, things it sucks.

     

    @BC_Programmer said:

    It's ironic, because on the opposite end of the spectrum, you have Open Source, which many people like to consider a community that helps, and this is some sort of pinnacle of software ideals. And yet, somehow, that idea of "community" is not allowed to translate to any commercial product userbase.

     

    Something that makes sense on one end of a spectrum and does not make sense on the other end? That does not qualify as "ironic", it's perfectly normal.

    Ok, fair point. My use of the word "ironic" was probably not stellar there, but what I mean is that one of the very pillars of Open Source is about the communities that pop up around the products; hell, one of the big points proponents of Linux pull out of their ass is that "they can ask on a forum" What you are sort of saying here is that the right for people to gather (online... or otherwise, I suppose) and form communities surrounding a product is only valid when that product is Open Source. (Either that, or the argument you made would apply equally to Open Source Project communities). As an example, Most of the people who help on the Firefox or Ubuntu or Mint forums are not Firefox, Ubuntu, or Mint Developers and do not work for Mozilla or Canonical.

     

    The open source community is working hard to make FOSS that anyone can use

    They've been spinning their wheels on that one for as long as I can remember, they are certainly making efforts, but the fragmented nature of the community and the passing whims of preference tend to toss a monkey wrench in the works. Also, from what I can tell most of the more successful Open Source Projects, such as Firefox, Chromium, Linux, and so forth tend to have some sort of corporation or organization providing the funding (Mozilla, Google, and  various companies for Linux, such as Red Hat and Canonical  . I'm sort of in the same segment as Blakeyrat on this one- The vast majority of OSS projects I use are anything but easy to use. Eclipse is downright silly, MonoDevelop is a poor substitute for Visual Studio, and almost everything else has some issues. Though arguably that's true for any Software product regardless of the licensing of it. The fallacy with OSS is that "if you have a problem you can fix it yourself". well, technically, you can, but reasonably, it's out of most peoples reach. 

    while Microsoft is working hard to make money and have more people buy their products.

    Actually, I think I get this now. This makes sense. Of course Open Source supporters would shum free support for any sort of system- The entire philosophy of how Software would work in a mystical Utopian magic pixie land is that the software is free, but the support is not. But this is something of a catch-22, if the companies that help write and fund a product's only revenue stream is with support, what incentive do they have to make the product easy to use?

     

    It's totally up to you to help Microsoft make more money but don't expect a Nobel prize for that.

    I would argue that helping a person fix their Windows Installation for free get's Microsoft Less money than their alternative of buying another computer entirely, or even another copy of windows. Hell there have been times somebody was trying to decide what Edition of Windows to buy when they got the money for it, but in the meantime they had an unusable Machine,   so I suggested they try a few Linux alternatives in the meantime, to at least be able to use the machine in the meantime. They ended up sticking with it and not buying Windows, so I doubt I helped MS make more money that way either. And the product for which I got the award, C#, is more or less source license agnostic because it has both free and proprietary implementations. 

     

    It's like going to Walmart and pick up litter in their parking lot for free to "help fellow Walmart customers"

    I'm not sure if that is a accurate analogy. I would say it is like if you see an old lady having trouble trying to get a shopping cart out, and you ask "Do you need some help", which will often be met with "yes please". In my case, I would help dislodge the cart or explain that, no, her 50 year old silver dollar does not work as the deposit in the lock mechanism. In your example, you would demand a payment up-front for services rendered, or just say "well too bad, I don't work here". 

     

    If Walmart hands you down a Walmart t-shirt afterwards and call you an MVP then congratulations but don't expect people to be impressed because you could have put your skills to a better use.

    While I can see what you mean, I would argue that your analogy is coloured to purposely exclude the "human" factor. As another example, if you see a elderly person struggling to get a large bag of sugar in their cart in the super market, would you help, or just ignore it? Is it really the store staffs' job to serve as personal assistants? I'm not really sure. of course if there is an employee nearby, hopefully they would make an effort to help, but if there are none around, do you just tell yourself "not my problem" and move on?

    The only reason that could really explain doing MVP work is to gain visibility and build a consulting business or try to get hired by Microsoft. This plan could work but one should be mindful of the cost in lost opportunities for all those hours spent supporting Microsoft products and should make sure that this is a good business approach (which I doubt).

     

    See, here's the misunderstanding. What the hell is MVP work? About half of the assistance I give on the forums I am members of relate to OSS. I just don't follow the logic that punishing the users by withholding information is either ethically correct or that punishing the users of a product will somehow punish the vendor of that product, nor do I really see how punishing a vendor will somehow benefit the users. It's a slippery slope "the ends justify the means" argument, based on the premise that if everybody ran Open Source software, the world would be a mystical fairy-tale paradise, the Dodo would suddenly exist again, and the worlds problems would all be solved. But there is no basis on which to come to that conclusion, and it seems that the goal isn't necessarily to give people the best software tools for their task, but to make sure that those tools are Open Source. it seems the plan for this is something like this:

     1.Withhold information and refuse to assist those who use Proprietary ebil softwarez

    2. ???

    3. FOSS WINS!

     It seems that what you are saying is that nobody should ever help another person with software-related problems if that person is using proprietary software, which makes sense from the business perspective for Open Source, since denying support to those using your ebil nemesis proprietary software and dangling the carrot of "well, you know if you use Fedora, I would totally help you install Photoshop" (despite the white lie there, I guess) would probably have more people switching to Linux. But isn't this coercion? If Linux and Open Source are about choice, surely there is a choice to not use it at all, is there not?

    I guess the problem I have here is that the support strategies involved seem to revolve around how to help Open Source, not how to help people.

     


     



  • @BC_Programmer said:

    In my case, I would help dislodge the cart or explain that, no, her 50 year old silver dollar does not work as the deposit in the lock mechanism.

    Wait...

    You have to BUY shopping carts? Man everywhere not the US sucks.



  • @Speakerphone Dude said:

    The open source community is working hard to make FOSS that anyone can use while Microsoft is working hard to make money and have more people buy their products.

    And yet the for-profit companies remain head-and-shoulders above the open source products. If the FOSS community is trying to make "software that anyone can use", they're fucking shit at it. So far all they've demonstrated is that they can build half-decent software if some corporation is footing the bill (but then is it really the FOSS community?) and they can make extremely half-assed almost-functional copies of existing software made by for-profit corporations.

    Meanwhile, the open source community throws away helpful tools like Mono/C# because "ewwww I think I saw Microsoft pick its nose and touch it!" And the guy who just wanted to save everybody some time by finally giving the community a fucking half-decent language for once is like their greatest enemy. Even though most open source projects are still using archaic languages (C/C++) and archaic tools (VIM/EMACS/if you're lucky, Eclipse).

    Debuggers? What are debuggers? Testing? Yeah, I did testing: it ran on my machine and kind of worked, so I'm shipping it. It might be fucking broken as hell but "release early and release often" philosophy says we release the buggy shit missteps to give people a chance to hate our software before its even done! SUCH A WISE PHILOSOPHY!

    Want to install the program? "/configure /make install" is obviously the best and most usable way to do it, for Linux is making "software anyone can use!" Want to uninstall the program? Well it shoved files into 48,034 subdirectories and is completely intermixed with every other program on the system so... you can't, fuck you. Oh but don't worry we solved that problem with package management! You want a commercial program? Fuck you, we don't let it in, it has to be installed the stupid way. You want a program not in the package database? Fuck you, it has to be installed the stupid way. You installed something the stupid way? Fuck you our package manager doesn't know about it and will break the fuck out of it the instant you update.

    Look, if the FOSS community is truly trying to create "software anyone can use", they've been doing nothing but failing for 20 years. They can kind of sort of keep up with Microsoft and Apple, if only by completely ripping them off. But they've never truly succeeded at their goal, and there hasn't been a single original successful user-facing open source project that wasn't just a ripoff of a commercial product. Something like the Office 2007 Ribbon interface, or the iPhone touch screen interface, or the Kindle, could never have been developed the open source way.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    You have to BUY shopping carts? Man everywhere not the US sucks.

    Not really, it's mostly at supermarkets and stores that have the shopping carts outside. You basically have to stick a dollar into the locking mechanism to dislodge this chain that connects it to the cart in front of it. Then when you put the cart back, you plug the lock back in and you get the dollar back.

     I've never really understood what the point was, though. 



  • @BC_Programmer said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    You have to BUY shopping carts? Man everywhere not the US sucks.

    Not really, it's mostly at supermarkets and stores that have the shopping carts outside. You basically have to stick a dollar into the locking mechanism to dislodge this chain that connects it to the cart in front of it. Then when you put the cart back, you plug the lock back in and you get the dollar back.

    I've never really understood what the point was, though.

    It's a deterrent that is meant to prevent scum from hauling away shopping carts and throwing them into the bushes, rolling them onto the streets and into traffic, etc.


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