My fancy GUI is just too complicated



  • I wrote this software to be foolproof, everything that it does happens automatically when the target device is plugged into a USB port. It only has one button and in the course of an ordinary day you only have to press it once at the start of the production run. I did this because it had to be used by ordinary production line workers, many of whom are temps on minimum wage.

    However today I had to tell one of our software developers how to use it, apparently telling him "Run it, load the file, plug it in." wasn't enough. With this screen in front of him he calls me back and asks....

    So many buttons!

     

     

         "But how do you load the file?"

     



  • The picture doesn't appear.



  •  Man you suck at linking files.



  •  Oh balls, seems I am the WTF. :) lemme find somewhere else to upload it to ....


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place



  •  I have now changed the app to pop up the 'load file' box startup to avoid any confusion.





  • @Juifeng said:

    http://postimage.org/image/72gzylugp/

    Does the Load File button open a dialog? If so, it should have an ellipsis at the end, as per convention.



  • @EncoreSpod said:

    ...apparently telling him "Run it, load the file, plug it in." wasn't enough.

    Well, that certainly wouldn't have been enough for me. I'd be one of those morons to ask you what "it", "the file", and "it" were. Also I'd like to know what a tool does before I operate it. Stupid, stubborn me... I wish I were smart enough to be able to know what people are thinking, so I didn't have to be that really dumb guy that has to keep asking vague programmers what the fuck they're on about.

    Having said that, that developer's question admittedly isn't very smart. I do agree with Dhromed though, there should be an ellipsis if there's going to be a dialog.



  • I would have thought "load file" could be a folder icon top-left (as well as "open" or "load" as a menu option) to bring it in line with other windows apps.

    Either way... not much that can go wrong with it.. is there?


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @dhromed said:

    it should have an ellipsis at the end, as per convention.

    @toon said:
    I do agree with Dhromed though, there should be an ellipsis if there's going to be a dialog.

    @Raymond Chen said:

    When do you put "..." after a button or menu? For example, some menus say "Save as..." and some buttons say "Customize...". What is the rule for dots?

    Many people believe that the rule for dots is "If it's going to display a dialog, then you need dots." This is a misapprehension.

    The rules are spelled out in the Windows User Interface Design Specifications and Guidelines (what a mouthful). Scroll down to "Ellipses".

    I could repeat what's written there, or I could just tell you to read it.

    I'm going to tell you to read it.

    Okay, maybe I'm going to repeat what's written there, but briefly:

    Use an ellipsis if the command requires additional information before it can be performed. Sometimes the dialog box is the command itself, such as "About" or "Properties". Even though they display a dialog, the dialog is the result, as opposed to commands like "Print" where the dialog is collecting additional information prior to the result.



  • It's obvious here that "dialog" in their posts refers to something that asks for input: Likely a File Open dialog.


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    @Medinoc said:

    It's obvious here that "dialog" refers to something that asks for input: Likely a File Open dialog.

    True, it still should have an ellipsis, but the wording used implied that the rule was "if there's going to be a dialog, use an ellipsis," which Raymond Chen calls a misapprehension. I thought I might stop the spread of misinformation by giving the correct convention. They were right, but for the wrong reason.



  • @EncoreSpod said:

    "But how do you load the file?"
    OK.  Coming from a developer that's pretty stupid.   However ......

    @EncoreSpod said:

    I did this because it had to be used by ordinary production line workers, many of whom are temps on minimum wage.
    If this is intended for production workers with minimal computer skills, why does the button say "Load File"?  It should say "Start Production" or something that is more directly related to whatever job it is that they are doing.  For many people I'll guarantee that their initial reaction to that screen is "Load File?  What file?"

    Yes, technically "Load File" is correct and makes perfect sense to a programmer, but, this is an example of thinking like a programmer rather than thinking like an end-user.  I see this a lot in software and find in quite annoying.  Especially when it is an internal application, not one distrbuted to the general public.  There are many example of that right here in this thread: @dhromed said:

    Does the Load File button open a dialog? If so, it should have an ellipsis at the end, as per convention.
    @Cassidy said:
    I would have thought "load file" could be a folder
    icon top-left (as well as "open" or "load" as a menu option) to bring
    it in line with other windows apps.
    @toon said:
    I do agree with Dhromed though, there should be an ellipsis if there's going to be a dialog.



  • OK, I'll pile on, too. (Overall, I think you have the right idea, I just think your execution needs a little work - sorry if what I write below sounds harsh.)

    I have to ask - are these regular users who usually run it supposed to understand anything the app displays? Because as a very technical person, I don't understand anything it says.

    Programming disabled until hex file imported

    Um... OK. Since there's only one button, I don't think I'm going to be doing much programming with it. And since every file can be interpreted as being in hex, can I just use any old file? Or is there a specific use for the files you'll be feeding this utility? For example, are they "production data files", or "testing commands" or something like that?

    Instrument assigned number, #0

    What's an instrument (like a guitar or something?), and why do I need to know you assigned it a number? And I'm glad you've written both the word and the symbol for number, just to be sure. Also, starting your numbering at 0? Is that a science thing?

    Instrument #0 is done!

    That sure is exciting! Glad you added the exclamation point! I still have no idea what it means!

    Programming disabled until hex file imported.

    We've been over this one. It needs some sort of file...

    Programming re-enabled.

    Oh, wait, no it doesn't. Huh?



  • @EncoreSpod said:

    I wrote this software to be foolproof
     

    Firstly, nothing is foolproof - fools are ingenious.

    Secondly... you may want to read up a bit about UI design. I think Blakey posted some links in the past, but a few of his rants highlight how the front-end is designed by a programmer for a programmer, and not for someone unfamiliar with the package. I mean, perhaps just some numbered onscreen instructions showing the steps they should be following and which one they're currently on is better hand-holding, or even better labels/titles and not looking as threatening or bare could improve perceptions of the utility.



  • @Cassidy said:

    @EncoreSpod said:

    I wrote this software to be foolproof
     

    Firstly, nothing is foolproof - fools are ingenious.

    Secondly... you may want to read up a bit about UI design. I think Blakey posted some links in the past, but a few of his rants highlight how the front-end is designed by a programmer for a programmer, and not for someone unfamiliar with the package. I mean, perhaps just some numbered onscreen instructions showing the steps they should be following and which one they're currently on is better hand-holding, or even better labels/titles and not looking as threatening or bare could improve perceptions of the utility.

    Ding ding ding. You win the prize. That programmer spew is unforgiveable, what's the point of that? How does it help the user to whom its displayed? What is a "Multimagatron"? There's no Help menu or icon. Why does it have an icon that reads "HO"? (Or HD maybe?) Why the almost-randomly-generated file name in the window title? Just to confuse people? If there's "zero devices" as the program claims, why would I expect "Load File" to do anything at all? There's zero devices to load from. (And if that's the case, why isn't the button greyed-out to indicate it can't be used at this time?)

    What's the point of showing a blank instrument list? Hell, what's the point of showing anything since there's only one possible button to hit? Just show the fucking button, nothing else matters. I also find it hard to believe that all the user has to do is click "Load File"... once its loaded, then what? It's either loading a file and then doing something to it, or it's loading a file and doing absolutely nothing with it and you're wasting everybody's time.

    Using my psychic UI powers, I presume either "Load File" copies a file from the device to the PC, or from the PC to the device. But there's no visual indicator of this, nor is the terminology correct. ("Import/Export to Device" would be much better. It's not like you don't have room for a long button caption. Or a visual hint with an icon of the device and a arrow pointing towards/away from it.)

    This UI is maybe a C- effort. And that's without even going into nitpicky things like the lack of ellipsis, or mentioning that the caption "Instrument list" is redundant since it's obviously captioning a list box, and inconsistent since its partner to the left is plurized and it should just be named "Instruments" and both list box captions should be followed by a colon but that would be nitpicky.

    If you really wanted something better, you should create a program that can auto-detect when the "multimagatron" is plugged-in, and do its process at that point automatically without user intervention. Then you wouldn't have to write a UI at all. (Or maybe a single window-with-progress-bar, is loading the file takes some amount of time.) If this is a driver, have it act like a driver. It's obviously not a regular application with only a 1-button UI. Go back to start, rethink what you're trying to accomplish and what the best way of doing that is. For example, if my psychic UI powers are correct and this is intended to allow the user to move a file from their PC onto the device, why not just have the device show up as Mass Storage in the first place? Explorer already has a pretty good UI for moving files around.



  • @Cassidy said:

    I would have thought "load file" could be a folder icon top-left (as well as "open" or "load" as a menu option) to bring it in line with other windows apps.

    Either way... not much that can go wrong with it.. is there?

    And what about drag & drop?



  • @joe.edwards said:

    http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2004/05/17/133181.aspx

    BTW, Windows guidelines are Windows guidelines, other OSes have their own set. For example, in Mac Classic, the ellipsis did literally mean "this command brings up a dialog box" and therefore it would be correct to have one behind "About" in that OS. Don't just assume everybody does the same thing as Windows, that's a source of many, many WTFs on Macs.


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    It does appear to be a Windows application (based on the screenshot).

    Despite that, in the comments section of the same page I linked, we find:

    @Raymond Chen said:

    Raymond Chen 17 May 2004 9:09 AM #
    (By the way, Apple http://developer.apple.com/documentation/mac/HIGuidelines/HIGuidelines-84.html and Java http://java.sun.com/products/jlf/at/book/Menus2.html appear to have the same rules for ellipses as Windows.)

    The first link appears to be dead, though.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @joe.edwards said:

    based on the screenshot
    Allow me to be the first to point out that the screenshot in post #1 (that still doesn't show at the moment) and the link posted in #7 are from two different people.



  • @Speakerphone Dude said:

    And what about drag & drop?
     

    What about it?

    I mean... I don't know much about the utility, don't know the context in which it works (no specs) so my honest answer is "I don't see how that features in this case".

    If, OTOH, you mean that the util should support drag n drop (allow a user to drag a file onto the util rather than clicking "Load File" and browsing to the location) then .. yup, it probably should. Perhaps it does - but thinking back to what EncoreSpod mentioned about his own self-confessed programming prowess, I'd err on the side of "unlikely".


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @PJH said:

    @joe.edwards said:
    based on the screenshot
    Allow me to be the first to point out that the screenshot in post #1 (that still doesn't show at the moment) and the link posted in #7 are from two different people.

    They look exactly the same to me. Is this one of those spot-the-differences puzzles?



  • @PJH said:

    @joe.edwards said:
    based on the screenshot
    Allow me to be the first to point out that the screenshot in post #1 (that still doesn't show at the moment) and the link posted in #7 are from two different people.
    Yes.  But, if you look at the html source for the first post the URL for the picture is there -- http://s12.postimage.org/z2l3ivxx7/loadfile.png .  I'm not sure why the picture doesn't show up, the html seems OK.  Although this is Community Server we're talking about so anything is possible.  Anyway, if you paste that URL into your browser you'll get the same pciture that appears in post #7.



  •  I guess what this thread is trying to say is "Dagnabbit, Spod, you had one button to program. How did you mess that up?"



  •  The image site doesn't allow remote loading. Some of the time.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    That programmer spew is unforgiveable, what's the point of that? How does it help the user to whom its displayed? What is a "Multimagatron"? There's no Help menu or icon. Why does it have an icon that reads "HO"? (Or HD maybe?) Why the almost-randomly-generated file name in the window title? Just to confuse people? If there's "zero devices" as the program claims, why would I expect "Load File" to do anything at all? There's zero devices to load from. (And if that's the case, why isn't the button greyed-out to indicate it can't be used at this time?)

    What's the point of showing a blank instrument list? Hell, what's the point of showing anything since there's only one possible button to hit? Just show the fucking button, nothing else matters. I also find it hard to believe that all the user has to do is click "Load File"... once its loaded, then what? It's either loading a file and then doing something to it, or it's loading a file and doing absolutely nothing with it and you're wasting everybody's time.

    And yet the big debate in this thread is "Dude, like, you should have an elipses on the Load File button".  Really?  That's the first thing you notice that's wrong with that screen?  No wonder most UIs are so shitty.

    Go get 100 people who are not programmers.  Point to a menu item on any program and ask them what the elipsis means.  I guarantee that you'll get something in the neighborhood of:

    98 - Don't know
    90 - Never noticed the elipsis till you pointed it out to them
    60 - Don't know what the word elipsis means

    That doesn't mean the UI guidelines are bad or shouldn't be followed, but there are much more important things to worry about.  Get those right, first, then worry about the trivial shit, like elipsis.

     



  • @El_Heffe said:

    Go get 100 people who are not programmers.

    This is the real irony of the thread: It seems reasonable to infer from the OP that those guys (i.e., the non-programming minimum wage assembly line serfs) had no problem. It was the one programmer who couldn't figure out how to click the button.

    Now you may proceed to flame me for how you imagine that I have defended something I never defended.



  • @El_Heffe said:

    Go get 100 people who are not programmers.  Point to a menu item on any program and ask them what the elipsis means.  I guarantee that you'll get something in the neighborhood of:

    98 - Don't know
    90 - Never noticed the elipsis till you pointed it out to them
    60 - Don't know what the word elipsis means

    Does that means that 248% of non-programmers are not familiar with the meaning of the elipsis?



  • @blakeyrat said:

    you should create a program that can auto-detect when the "multimagatron" is plugged-in, and do its process at that point automatically without user intervention.

    But isn't this exactly what the program does?

    @EncoreSpod said:

    I wrote this software to be foolproof,
    everything that it does happens automatically when the target device is
    plugged into a USB port. It only has one button and in the course of an
    ordinary day you only have to press it once at the start of the
    production run.

    Regarding the button: Why not remove it? Just load the latest and greatest hex file automatically on startup. (Or maybe hide the button somewhere for "advanced" users.)



  • @El_Heffe said:

    And yet the big debate in this thread is "Dude, like, you should have an elipses on the Load File button".

    1. That's not a big debate. It wasn't a debate at all. Someone mentioned it; I agreed with them. Then I posted a warning that you shouldn't assume Microsoft UI guidelines apply to non-Microsoft platforms.

    2) Why did you type that in response to my post, it has nothing to do with my post as far as I can work out.

    3) @El_Heffe said:

    That doesn't mean the UI guidelines are bad or shouldn't be followed, but there are much more important things to worry about.  Get those right, first, then worry about the trivial shit, like elipsis.

    I agree, which is why in the very post you were responding to, I called the ellipsis thing (and the bad list box caption) "nitpicky things". Criticizing the lack of ellipses on that screenshot is like criticizing the arrangement of deck chairs on the rapidly-sinking Titanic. You gotta get the basics right first before you worry about the details.



  • @fatbull said:

    @blakeyrat said:

    you should create a program that can auto-detect when the "multimagatron" is plugged-in, and do its process at that point automatically without user intervention.

    But isn't this exactly what the program does?

    Hard to say, we don't know what it does. For all I know the "Load Files" button shows a cartoon of Veronica from the Archie comics driving a Porsche to the mall. All we got is the screenshot.

    What I can say for sure is that a UI with only two possible actions, one of them being "close the UI", should not exist. There's no point to showing a UI if there's only one possible thing that can be done. The computer should just fucking do the one thing and leave the user alone.

    @fatbull said:

    Regarding the button: Why not remove it? Just load the latest and greatest hex file automatically on startup. (Or maybe hide the button somewhere for "advanced" users.)

    ... which was exactly one of my suggestions, the one you actually quoted at the top of your response. So...



  • @fatbull said:

    Regarding the button: Why not remove it? Just load the latest and greatest hex file automatically on startup. (Or maybe hide the button somewhere for "advanced" users.)

    Even better: make it a "Like" button.



  • @Speakerphone Dude said:

    @fatbull said:

    Regarding the button: Why not remove it? Just load the latest and greatest hex file automatically on startup. (Or maybe hide the button somewhere for "advanced" users.)

    Even better: make it a "Like" button.

     

     

    LOL I 'like' that idea.

     

    As for the latest and greatest file, its not that simple cus we ship different configurations to different customers so there has to be a choice depending on what we are building that day.

    Yeah maybe we could have a simple choice, but then we need a list/database of what is what... blah blah.. come on guys you know how this works, this is the real world, its not perfect and its not orderly.

    RE: Drag and drop

    someone up there ^^^ said something about drag'n'drop and thats actually a pretty good idea, I think I'll add that on monday.

    RE: Other stuff

    I also noticed some rants about a blank instrument list and other shit whilst I was scanning through my emails, I didn't look very closely... but you must understand I just took that screengrab to indicate that there is only one button in this form and it says "Load File", there were no instruments listed because when I took the grab there where none attached,

     RE: Image hosting

    Yeah sorry about that, at first I just dumped in google docs and made it public thinking that would work... then I just searched for free image hosting. I'm not used to posting stuff on forums like this, haven't done it in a long time, last time I did I had my own webservers running at home and at work so it was easy to dump images on them. Believe it or not in all the years I've been on the net I've never had the need to use a third party for hosting images before, bit of a WTF on my part there. I guess I need to sign up to somewhere.

     

     



  •  Oh yeah I also noticed something about the name of the software and the icon, I know its just trolling but I'll reply anyway.

    I love giving software stupid names, I have this thing for stupid retro-futuristic names, I've made apps called Mailer-Tron, Call-O-Matic... the Multimagatron was just another step, the 'HD' part was total piss take cus I just sick of seeing everything branded as 'HD'.

    I mean it started with TV's, then I had a tumble dryer that was called the BRAND-MODEL HD (I forget the specifics), then I noticed that the hand soap in the bathrooms at work was branded 'HD'!

    WTF? HD soap? Does it improve the resolution and colour depth of my skin or something?

     

     



  • @EncoreSpod said:

    I also noticed some rants about a blank instrument list and other shit whilst I was scanning through my emails, I didn't look very closely...

    You know if you actually read our posts you might be able to improve your product. Assuming you give a shit. Which doesn't seem likely. So I'll just go play videogames.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Assuming you give a shit. Which doesn't seem likely. So I'll just go play videogames.
     

     

    I'm way past that mate, they pay me at the end of the month and its enough for rent bills and booze, beyond that I couldn't give a flying fuck.

    Still, its true that I do hold onto some vague lingering hope of maybe improving something some day even though I know its pointless, I am trying to overcome that. :)

     



  • @blakeyrat said:

    2) Why did you type that in response to my post, it has nothing to do with my post as far as I can work out.
    You were the only persn to actually point out all the things that are REALLY wrong with the UI in that screen.  Meanwhile I count at least five posts (not counting you) that mention elipsis or other trivial shit.  This is a good example of why UIs suck,  and I was simply pointing out the difference between recognizing what's really wrong (like you did) versus only recognizing the trivial shit (everyone else).



  • @EncoreSpod said:

    they pay me at the end of the month and its enough for rent bills and booze

    Get yourself a Tony Robbins book and maybe you'll work your way up to the next step!

    1. Motel room, hookers and KFC
    2. Rent, bills and booze <-- this is where you are
    3. Mortgage, 401(k) and p0rn-per-view
    4. Lawyers, investment portfolio and coke


  • @El_Heffe said:

    This is a good example of why UIs suck,  and I was simply pointing out the difference between recognizing what's really wrong (like you did) versus only recognizing the trivial shit (everyone else).

    No, it's a good example of a thread getting derailed and not trying to be useful... Arguing about trivia also has the side benefit of a guaranteed troll hit on the forum scolds...



  • @El_Heffe said:

    @blakeyrat said:

    2) Why did you type that in response to my post, it has nothing to do with my post as far as I can work out.
    You were the only persn to actually point out all the things that are REALLY wrong with the UI in that screen.  Meanwhile I count at least five posts (not counting you) that mention elipsis or other trivial shit.  This is a good example of why UIs suck,  and I was simply pointing out the difference between recognizing what's really wrong (like you did) versus only recognizing the trivial shit (everyone else).

    Oh. Thanks then.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Hard to say, we don't know what it does.

    Judging from the OP (and a recent thread), I assume* this program is some kind of firmware upload thingy: Launch it, point it to a firmware file, and it will run in the background and automatically transfer that file whenever a Multimagatron is connected.

    @blakeyrat said:

    ... which was exactly one of my suggestions, the one you actually quoted at the top of your response. So...

    Was it? If so, I apologize. But I thought you wanted to get rid of the whole UI, not just that button.

    * You may now commence flaming.



  • @EncoreSpod said:

    I do hold onto some vague lingering hope of maybe improving something some day

    And if you persist with this attitude:

    @EncoreSpod said:

    beyond that I couldn't give a flying fuck.

    .. then that's all it'll be: a hope, and never reality or commitment.

    Your original post concerned how a utility you authored was unusable by some users: was this a fault of the user or of the software?

    Many here have given opinions upon what's wrong, as well as direction for improvement; taking heed of that information or dismissing it is purely your prerogative but at present you have a valuable opportunity to craft something of elegance that can showcase your skills.

    Take no pride in doing it now, and it's unlikely you'll take pride in future endeavours.



  • @fatbull said:

    Judging from the OP (and a recent thread), I assume* this program is some kind of firmware upload thingy: Launch it, point it to a firmware file, and it will run in the background and automatically transfer that file whenever a Multimagatron is connected.

    We're assuming... purely based upon the limited information presented - and your assumption was one I made also - but I'm guessing there's plenty more details that could clarify the context.

    @fatbull said:

    But I thought you wanted to get rid of the whole UI, not just that button.

    He did give a pretty good business case to scrap it and redo it all over, but some service that popped up an additional "write Firmware 1.2.3.4 to this device" option in the standard Windows "you've just plugged a removable device in! What would you like to do?" dialogue would have been my consideration.[1]

    @fatbull said:

    * You may now commence flaming.

    Sharn't. That'll teach you!

    [1] thus changing the problem from one of managing firmware writes to managing firmware versions.



  • @El_Heffe said:

    I was simply pointing out the difference between recognizing what's really wrong (like you did) versus only recognizing the trivial shit (everyone else).
     

    I am open to the option that I was bikeshedding. I couldn't begin to understand from a single screenshot what the application was supposed to do and hence infer how its components should operate but I saw a button and by god I latched on to that.



  • @EncoreSpod said:

    I couldn't give a flying fuck.
     

    So what do you like?

    @EncoreSpod said:

    some vague lingering hope of maybe improving something some day

    Every single skilled person at anything will tell you that you will never improve if you don't like doing what you do*, rather than just having a result.

     

    *) regardless of how much you suck at it.

     



  • I can't get any of the image links to work... good job, guys. But if I understand things correctly, and the user is supposed to run a program and push a button to bring up the "Open File" common dialog, then I wonder why the program doesn't just open directly to the file common dialog. It's unfortunate, but I suppose that programmers seem to want to add unnecessary layers to everything. Or, maybe people just put everything through the same filter, e.g. a Win32 app with a "main window" (that's not a Windows common dialog).

    Still, I'd question anyone who claimed not to know how to load the file. There's really only one possibility here...



  • @blakeyrat said:

    What I can say for sure is that a UI with only two possible actions, one of them being "close the UI", should not exist. There's no point to showing a UI if there's only one possible thing that can be done. The computer should just fucking do the one thing and leave the user alone.
    There is always at least one additional, if implicit, action: the action of inaction.

    What I mean by that is that, even if the UI only has one button, that button might not always perform something useful, so not pushing it when it doesn't may be a valid course of action. Now you might reply "then don't show the f-ing button when it doesn't do anything, or at least disable it" and I would agree with you, but I can also imagine scenarios where the software simply has no way to tell whether the button can perform its intended action at the moment or not - so it is purely up to the user to know when the right time has come.

    For example, while we're on the topic of programming some external devices via some interface, imagine that the hardware not only has to be connected properly first, but also needs to be set up into a state ready to receive the programming, like by throwing a switch from the "read-only" position to the "write-enabled" position first, and some brain dead hardware engineers forgot to make the state of that switch readable to the PC doing the programming...



  • @Anonymouse said:

    For example, while we're on the topic of programming some external devices via some interface, imagine that the hardware not only has to be connected properly first, but also needs to be set up into a state ready to receive the programming, like by throwing a switch from the "read-only" position to the "write-enabled" position first, and some brain dead hardware engineers forgot to make the state of that switch readable to the PC doing the programming...

    Then it's broken. This is 2012. There's no fucking excuse for that.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Then it's broken. This is 2012. There's no fucking excuse for that.
    Admittedly, that was 2008, not 2012, but either way, if you're the unlucky bloke who gets a bunch of badly designed devices dumped on his desk and is told to make them f-ing work, you're usually not in the position to refuse doing that and demand a redesign of the hardware to be made, just because otherwise it would require you to violate your ideas of proper UI design to get it done...


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