Lotus Notes: Spearheading the social/mobile web revolution!
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@Speakerphone Dude said:
I was curious and followed the trail of bad pixels then found out that this lousy screen shot is hosted on a Domino web server.
Domino's a web server, too? A client's client (using Lotus Domino mail server) couldn't send e-mails to the client, and it took quite a bit of head scratching to figure out why - the stupid Domino server was connecting to my client's SMTP server on port 465, which was set to require authentication (I was looking at the logs, and it appeared as if my server was rejecting the messages for no reason - I completely skipped the line where it was telling me that the connection didn't come on the normal, public port 25). What kind of broken mail server connects to 465 directly instead of using STARTTLS on port 25?!
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@blakeyrat said:
had no option to install multi-user.
Correct, there was no 'option', and that's not what I wrote:
@MatNewman said:
Also, we were configuring Notes 5 in 1998 so that it was multi-user, it only had to be configured on the base image.
It needed to be installed, files copied into the shared paths, reg entries modified and a script path included. As I said, it only needed to be done once in a base image.
@blakeyrat said:
You liar.
And don't call me Shirley.
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@blakeyrat said:
@MatNewman said:
Also, we were configuring Notes 5 in 1998 so that it was multi-user, it only had to be configured on the base image.
Liar.
I used the install CDs straight from IBM. The yellow dudes with the big fat IBM logo on the top (and copies I burned of them, since we only had 5 or so of the originals and we had to reinstall that shitty program a lot). The CD for 6.0.8 (IIRC) had no option to install multi-user. The CD of 6.5.1 did.
Lotus Notes did not have that option in version 5 unless you hacked it in there manually. You liar.
He can't be a liar, he got a Kudos badge on his Domino-hosted website:
...oh wait, the Kudos badge awards are a creation of his own company to "Measure, Reward, and Drive User Adoption for IBM Connections" - and not only is this proprietary, they even SELL them for $1000!
It is a very exciting concept: "In addition Kudos Badges is an extensible platform that can leverage game theory to provide performance management mechanics and reward systems for applications outside of IBM Connections such as HR, Sales Force Management, Help Desks, and many more".
Here are 5 kudos badge. As anyone can see this has the same value as a new MacBook with Retina display, 16GB RAM and 750GB SSD.
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@ender said:
What kind of broken mail server connects to 465 directly instead of using STARTTLS on port 25?!
Sigh. One that's been TOLD to do that by an admin who obviously doesn't know what they are doing. Domino follows standards, like sending on 25 and including RFC message headers. Domino can also be configured to do anything, like the situation you describe above. Tell your clients' client they have to change the smtp port on the server document back to the default, port:25.
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@Speakerphone Dude said:
Oh man. I'm going to be buying a car soon, do you think the dealership will take kudos badges in lieu of cash?
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@MatNewman said:
@Zemm said:
I used lotus notes for 3 months in 2006, as a user. I still have nightmares.
So what bullshit crap did your admin subject you too?
Well it was in the Queensland Government. I was employed to help roll out XP SP2 which did literally kill several machines (obviously HDDs on their last legs and the installation push them over the edge). At least they did use Notes "properly" as a database and not just as an email program.
Don't worry about my Notes nightmares. I've had nightmares that I'm fighting pirates (as in Johnny Depp) with Javascript.
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@MatNewman said:
@blakeyrat said:
had no option to install multi-user.
Correct, there was no 'option', and that's not what I wrote:
@MatNewman said:
Also, we were configuring Notes 5 in 1998 so that it was multi-user, it only had to be configured on the base image.
It needed to be installed, files copied into the shared paths, reg entries modified and a script path included. As I said, it only needed to be done once in a base image.
So in conclusion, I claim "Lotus Notes didn't support multi-user until version 6.5" and your counter-claim is "Lotus Notes didn't support multi-user in version 5". Effective debating strategy.
Look, saying "Notes 5 could do multi-user" because you HACKED IT IN is like saying Skyrim is a My Little Ponies game because there happens to be a mod which adds MLP to Skyrim. Also there's a car in that metaphor somewhere.
@MatNewman said:
Sigh. One that's been TOLD to do that by an admin who obviously doesn't know what they are doing. Domino follows standards, like sending on 25 and including RFC message headers. Domino can also be configured to do anything, like the situation you describe above. Tell your clients' client they have to change the smtp port on the server document back to the default, port:25.
So Lotus Notes has a configuration option named, what, "act broken?" "Break email"? Why does that option exist? (Don't answer; I don't give a fuck.)
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@blakeyrat said:
Don't answer; I don't give a fuck.
Decided I couldn't help myself but to reply.
@blakeyrat said:your counter-claim is "Lotus Notes didn't support multi-user in version 5"
as with everything else you've incorrectly countered about the subject in question, I specifically said it was possible - and I even told you how we did it. It's a shame we didn't run into one another while you were a Notes admin, I could really have helped you (and your users) out.
@blakeyrat said:So Lotus Notes has a configuration option named, what, "act broken?" "Break email"? Why does that option exist?
the option exists because you may want to redirect SMTP traffic to another box on your network using an alternate port, and again most things in Domino are configurable, which makes it a highly flexible platform.
This has been an insightful and enlightening exchange. Thanks for sharing your experience.
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@MatNewman said:
It's a shame we didn't run into one another while you were a Notes admin, I could really have helped you (and your users) out.
By charging our struggling, always-low-on-funds, regional hospital a thousand bucks for an icon?
IBM consultants are the worst people in IT. I don't think I'm exaggerating at all: you and your type are the worst. It's a scam. You sell shitty products by wining and dining IT directors who don't know any better, you then sell shitty consultants are ridiculous rates to maybe kind of sort of make the shitty products not quite as shitty as they were originally. Hey look, IBM gets a double-serving of cash and your company's users get fucked up the ass. But as long as the cognac's flowing at the C*O level, who gives a fuck!
Any consultant with even the slightest hint of ethics would pull you aside, say, "hey look, we get that you need IBM for your hospital management system, but seriously-- your groupware needs would be met much better and less expensively using the Microsoft product." That's called "telling the truth." Something no IBM salesman has ever been able to do, at least not since the OS/2 days when they may have still had a lingering decent product or two. Our hospital treated people without any concern for their ability to pay, like all hospitals with an E.R. It was staffed by good people who went into the career to make the world a better place. They had to suffer with non-working, un-usable, plain-ass broken software because of shithead IBM pushers like you.
@MatNewman said:
This has been an insightful and enlightening exchange. Thanks for sharing your experience.
DIAF.
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@blakeyrat said:
@MatNewman said:
This has been an insightful and enlightening exchange. Thanks for sharing your experience.
DIAF.
No need for that, he has already a cruel punishment by working full time with Lotus Notes.
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@MatNewman said:
It's a shame we didn't run into one another while you were a Notes admin, I could really have helped you (and your users) out.
I blame Twitter for not having been invented earlier. You could have made the world such a better place, 140 characters at a time. Also you could have sold shitloads of your $1000 animated gif (hopefully it comes with a pin or something).
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@blakeyrat said:
IBM consultants are the worst people in IT.
This thread is a direct result of me attempting to offer advice and assistance. For Free.
Despite the ridicule and name calling, I've hung around and engaged. There has not been any pretence on my behalf, it's been quite clear from the start who I am and what I do.
@blakeyrat said:
DIAF
Nice.
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@MatNewman said:
This thread is a direct result of me attempting to offer advice and assistance. For Free.
Despite the ridicule and name calling, I've hung around and engaged. There has not been any pretence on my behalf, it's been quite clear from the start who I am and what I do.
What you are is a Lotus Notes evangelist. That's your job definition. You are paid to peddle this horrible software suite and convince people that under the lipstick it's not a pig. This is worse than being an ambulance chaser because at least ambulance chasers don't try to convince people to jump in front of a bus.
People come here to bitch about stupid stuff they see at the office and make fun of each other's errors. And get in each other's face once in a while. There are probably lots of people who don't post, they just come to read about the stuff that people like snoofle have to deal with or laugh at the picture of the guy with the jester hat. Maybe some even wait hopefully for the return of a cute chick that was in some Google ads a while ago. Peddlers like you crawling in and trying to sell their crap is like the merchants in the temple. You are free to stay and post whatever you want but don't expect people to enter in a "please Mat how can we become more productive with collaboration software from IBM" kind of dialog.
Anyways it's not like you are a true IBM guy. IBM guys wear blue suits, not cheap swag polos, and they live in the right hemisphere.
Give my regards to Crocodile Dundee on your way to the office.
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@Speakerphone Dude said:
People come here to bitch about stupid stuff they see at the office and make fun of each other's errors. And get in each other's face once in a while.
No worries. I'm not a princess and can take it as well as the next guy. I'm still going to offer to help people if I think they need it.
Croc Dundee says G'Day ;-)
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@MatNewman said:
No worries. I'm not a princess and can take it as well as the next guy. [...] ;-)
Since you enjoy free advice, here is one for you: when you want to convince people that you are not a princess, don't make statements that sound like you are bragging about being involved in hardcore gay sex and don't end your comment with a smiley. It would also help to use a picture that does not make you look like you are riding Mr T.
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@Speakerphone Dude said:
It would also help to use a picture that does not make you look like you are riding Mr T.
ROFL!
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I like this guy's tenacity. I hope he sticks around. For a glorious thousand post thread!
Okay, Lotus guy, I have a follow up question for the one which you answered "integration". Having the joy of only experiencing Lotus Notes [url=http://www.ihatelotusnotes.com/]second-hand[/url], I don't know much about the integration aspect. Please elaborate on it. Do you mean you can email calendar appointments, or search your to-do list from your email client? Because all the other big players in fat email clients also do that.
Based on that awesome screenshot, do you just mean that everything and the kitchen sink gets embedded into one window? Is that integration? Because that just seems like needless embedding. You're allowed to run more than one program on your computer (despite Windows 8's Metro...), so, for example, why would you want a number of web browsers just kind of shoved into your calendar program?
What do you mean by integration, specifically?
Also, why is it always the admin's fault that the software doesn't work? I gather that it's unusually common that Lotus somehow manages to get configured in a way that makes it useless. Software really shouldn't be able to do that so easily. CAR ANALOGY! When I go to buy a car, I'm not going to buy it from an erector set manufacturer, even if I was a car enthusiast. I love tinkering with programs, but that doesn't mean I'd want a browser to use anything other than 80 as the standard port. Actually, now I'm curious. That screenshot you showed of embedded web browsers. Can you configure those to use a default port other than 80..? You know, just in case your business's network is so horribly broken that it can't function otherwise?
I'm thinking, that's the only reason you'd want to use these broken configurations, right? Is if your network is already broken? In which case, maybe you should instead be advocating software that would fixing these broken networks, not continue to perpetuate the brokenness. You know what I'm saying?
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@Xyro said:
Based on that awesome screenshot, do you just mean that everything and the kitchen sink gets
embedded into one windowsecurely mediated by frames?FTFY
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@MatNewman said:
This thread is a direct result of me attempting to offer advice and assistance. For Free.
Despite the ridicule and name calling, I've hung around and engaged. There has not been any pretence on my behalf, it's been quite clear from the start who I am and what I do.
This is the wrong forum for that. There are maybe three registered users here who aren't trolls. Ridicule and name-calling is the Prime Directive around here. Besides, registering here to preach Lotus Notes is kinda like going to a synagogue to promote Nazi policies.
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@Xyro said:
I like this guy's tenacity. I hope he sticks around. For a glorious thousand post thread!
+1
@Xyro said:reason you'd want to use these broken configurations,
A super configurable software is more enterprisey
@mott555 said:
This is the wrong forum for that
There is no right forum
@mott555 said:There are maybe three registered users here who aren't trolls
Who are the other 2?
@mott555 said:registering here to preach Lotus Notes is kinda like going to a synagogue to promote Nazi policies.
Awesome to watch?
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@blakeyrat said:
IBM consultants are the worst people in IT. I don't think I'm exaggerating at all: you and your type are the worst. It's a scam. You sell shitty products by wining and dining IT directors who don't know any better, you then sell shitty consultants are ridiculous rates to maybe kind of sort of make the shitty products not quite as shitty as they were originally.
I used to work for an organization that used a wide variety of IBM products, including Notes/Domino and WebSphere Portal (the focus of my job). At some point the higher-ups in our organization were convinced to purchase an enterprise search tool called OmniFind that was supposed to be able to integrate with a wide variety of systems (at least, a wide variety of IBM systems). It was a nice idea — unified search for the static websites, the Portal site, all the Domino databases, and everything would be subject to access control using our existing single sign-on system.
An IBM consultant was engaged to configure this thing. Almost everything he did was done incorrectly and he repeatedly told us that things were working which were not working at all. Searching the Portal site worked okay-ish, but the consultant had misconfigured the access control such that many people were denied access to many things they should have had access to. (Fortunately it didn't go the other way.) He told us that Domino search was working even though it clearly did not work. We eventually ditched him and redid the entire configuration ourselves.
Of course, the Domino search still didn't work. When we asked IBM support what we were doing wrong, they told us that OmniFind needed to be able to login to our Domino Server as another Domino server, using a password sent in plaintext. Our Domino administrator refused to allow this sort of behavior, and at the time I left the organization some months later no solution had been found.
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@serguey123 said:
@mott555 said:
There are maybe three registered users here who aren't trolls
Who are the other 2?Transient spammer accounts that haven't been caught and nuked.
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@boomzilla said:
@serguey123 said:
@mott555 said:
There are maybe three registered users here who aren't trolls
Who are the other 2?Transient spammer accounts that haven't been caught and nuked.
Yeah, somehow I managed to ban myself because of suspect posting behaviour and I had to think with portals to set it all straight.
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@Xyro said:
Also, why is it always the admin's fault that the software doesn't work? I gather that it's unusually common that Lotus somehow manages to get configured in a way that makes it useless.
No that's Lotus Notes Lover Excuse #2. The conversation usually goes like this:
"Lotus Notes is a terrible email client!"
"But it's not just email, if your company bought it for only email than they're not using it correctly" (Note that this ignores the fact that IBM sells it as a groupware product and nothing else.)
"But it doesn't work because of X."
"X is just a setting in the program, your admin must have configured it wrong." (Note that this ignores the fact that 90% of the time, an IBM consultant is the one configuring it. It also ignores the fact that if the product can be configured to not be shit, why doesn't it ship that way?)
"Ok what about [extremely obvious bug nobody could possibly deny]?" (Usually the fact that Notes crashes so often, and when it does it leaves behind services that prevent it from running again until you reboot, that IBM themselves offer a "kill Notes" app to recover from it. Think about that level of WTF: Notes is such spaghetti that it was easier for IBM to offer a product to kill all its processes than to fix it.)
[clams up]There are a few variants in the conversation. They also borrow a few moves from the Linux user playbook, where if you complain that Lotus Notes can't do some extremely simple thing (like save a single email into a file on the desktop), "you don't need that feature!" If you complain that the way folders work is extremely arcane, undocumented, and weird and virtually always leads to data loss, "it's a brilliant system, your users just aren't smart enough to figure it out!" If you complain, "Notes has [bad behavior]" they'll do the Linux user thing and reply, "oh yeah? Windows/Outlook also has [same bad behavior!]" as if another program being broken excuses your favorite program being broken.
See this site for a years long back and forth Lotus Notes debate.
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@blakeyrat said:
... "it's a brill
iant system, your users just aren't smart enough to figure it out!" ...unFTFY
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@dhromed said:
Yeah, somehow I managed to ban myself because of suspect posting behaviour and I had to think with portals to set it all straight.
Where can I get knock off product cheap?
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Going to a workplace that uses Lotus Notes.
Going to a workplace that uses Outlook.
YOU CAN NOT DENY MY CLEVER FACTUAL ARGUMENT!
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@blakeyrat said:
Usually the fact that Notes crashes so often, and when it does it leaves behind services that prevent it from running again until you reboot
Oh, Notes does that, too? We have a few IBM WebSphere products that do that. Pretty cool how it's all integrated.We use some of their middleware offerings on a Unix platform. When the software crashes, which it does at least monthly, it tends to spew out so much garbage and semaphore files and pid locks and other crap that it's impossible to get it back on its feet again. I don't really understand the obsession it has with creating gigantic sets of temporary files at runtime that are only possibly useful to that particular run. It should all just be in memory! Once the the program is down, keeping a file around that lets it know the address of some dead child process's shared memory is NOT going to be helpful. Oh, and we also have to forcibly clean out its shared memory, too, it's awesome. ipcrm ftw, I guess. We've had to develop our own rather extensive script to go out and clean up the mess it makes every time you have to bring it down.
The worst part is, even though the product really sucks, apparently everything else sucks worse. And also IBM keeps buying up the product's competitors. These two things may be related.
(Many times I've offered to build a custom solution in-house, but that wouldn't cost enough so it's always rejected.*)
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@serguey123 said:
@dhromed said:
Yeah, somehow I managed to ban myself because of suspect posting behaviour and I had to think with portals to set it all straight.
Where can I get knock off product cheap?Meet me in the back in two hours.
The password is "hunter2"
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@serguey123 said:
@mott555 said:
There are maybe three registered users here who aren't trolls
Who are the other 2?Fear and surprise.
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So, I haven't actually used Notes myself, but based on what I gather from this thread, Notes is to email what 1-2-3 Release 2.4 is to email.
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@blakeyrat said:
See this site for a years long back and forth Lotus Notes debate.
My god, it's worse than I thought. I knew that Notes sucks, but this should be illegal:
@Peruvian Lotus Notes Hater said:
Lotus Notes makes me sick, and it probes me once again...
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@Xyro said:
Because all the other big players in fat email clients also do that
Ok, so let's pretend Lotus Notes is just email. I open a message/celandar/To-do and every name, number, address, code, etc lights up. I click a name and can choose to see their CRM, Linkedin, Facebook or Internal Contact details. I choose an option and that pops up for me. I click on the code and it goes to the Fedex tracking site and shows me the tracking information for the parcel. No copy, browser, bookmark, paste, Notes does it all for me with one click.
@Xyro said:
Also, why is it always the admin's fault that the software doesn't work?
So you would blame Postfix and call it shitty software if an Admin edited /etc/postfix/master.cf, changed the port number to something other than 25?
@Xyro said:
that's the only reason you'd want to use these broken configurations, right?
Specific example: Small business, only one server, both Domino and ASSP running on the same box. ASSP listens on port 25, you change Domino to listen on 26, and have ASSP route email locally using port 26. That's not a broken network, that's a specific use case.
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@MatNewman said:
I open a message
@MatNewman said:I click a name
@MatNewman said:I choose an option
@MatNewman said:I click on the code
@MatNewman said:Notes does it all for me with one click.
Which one of those 4 clicks was the "one" click?
@MatNewman said:
So you would blame Postfix and call it shitty software if an Admin edited /etc/postfix/master.cf, changed the port number to something other than 25?
Yes.
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@Someone You Know said:
Almost everything he did was done incorrectly
I'm not going to defend that guy. The IT world is full of 'Consultants' who don't have a clue, and it's not just limited to IBM.
Just a couple of months ago I had to rebuild an entire AD Domain because the 'Microsoft Consultant' used every *bad* option and GP setting to lock down everything on the network, which included applying the policies to the Domain Controllers. Result: The servers were fubared. They called in Microsoft who told them the only option was to wipe and reinstall from scratch.
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@Blakeyrat said:
If you complain, "Notes has [bad behavior]" they'll do the Linux user thing and reply, "oh yeah? Windows/Outlook also has [same bad behavior!]" as if another program being broken excuses your favorite program being broken
Wait for it...
@MatNewman said:
Just a couple of months ago I had to rebuild an entire AD Domain because the 'Microsoft Consultant' used every bad option
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@blakeyrat said:
It also ignores the fact that if the product can be configured to not be shit, why doesn't it ship that way?
Tru Dat.
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@blakeyrat said:
Which one of those 4 clicks was the "one" click?
Eh, cheap shot. You gotta produce something that really sticks, you know.
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@dhromed said:
Eh, cheap shot. You gotta produce something that really sticks, you know.
I'm doing my best! It's hard to make fun of someone whose profile picture is already Big Bird/Muhammad Ali cosplay!
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@MatNewman said:
The IT world is full of 'Consultants' who don't have a clue, and it's not just limited to IBM.
Are you [b]trying[/b] to make this as easy as possible?
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@Lorne Kates said:
Are you trying to make this as easy as possible?
Yep.
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@blakeyrat said:
@dhromed said:
Eh, cheap shot. You gotta produce something that really sticks, you know.
I'm doing my best! It's hard to make fun of someone whose profile picture is already Big Bird/Muhammad Ali cosplay!
Every time I look at that, it looks like a Steve Carell gag from The Office.
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@boomzilla said:
@blakeyrat said:
@dhromed said:
Eh, cheap shot. You gotta produce something that really sticks, you know.
I'm doing my best! It's hard to make fun of someone whose profile picture is already Big Bird/Muhammad Ali cosplay!
Every time I look at that, it looks like a Steve Carell gag from The Office.
♫♫♫
Look at the stars,
Look how they shine for you,
And everything you do,
Yeah they were all yellow,
I came along
I wrote a song for you
And all the things you do
And it was called yellow
So then I took my turn
Oh what a thing to have done
And it was all yellow
I swam across
I jumped across for you
Oh what a thing to do
Cause you were all yellow
I drew a line
I drew a line for you
Oh what a thing to do
And it was all yellow
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@MatNewman said:
Ok, so let's pretend Lotus Notes is just email. I open a message/celandar/To-do and every name, number, address, code, etc lights up. I click a name and can choose to see their CRM, Linkedin, Facebook or Internal Contact details. I choose an option and that pops up for me. I click on the code and it goes to the Fedex tracking site and shows me the tracking information for the parcel. No copy, browser, bookmark, paste, Notes does it all for me with one click.
I dunno, Gmail also does that all. In fact, if someone emails me a message as vague as "yo, spaghetti noodle lunch tomorrow?", it'll show up as a possible appointment on my calendar. The shipping tracking stuff is pretty cool, too. I was pretty impressed first time I saw that.Okay, I've heard many times from Lotus advocates that Notes is not just a personal information manager (PIM: email, calendar, to-do, RSS feeds, etc, all with rich text composition, etc), despite that it's advertised that way. I've heard that it's amazingly great because it's a [i]database application[/i] ... or something like that? ... So, lets not pretend that Lotus Notes is just email. What does it have that any other fat PIM doesn't? Or, put another way, convince me that it's better than the free stuff from Google (without going into politics).
From what I'm reading on Wikipedia and IBM's website, the best answer to that question is that with Notes, everything gets jammed into one window. Please correct this misconception if incorrect.
Also, look how much this guy is concentrating on drawing little businessmen icons on a transparent whiteboard at arm's length:
[img]http://www-01.ibm.com/software/lotus/images/ls-social-behavior-260x150.jpg[/img]
It would be much easier for him to draw the lines if he were closer to the whiteboard, so that he wouldn't have to focus on steadying his arm so much. Yet he knows that if he gets too close, he might smudge up his purple tie. I believe this mentality represents the prototypical IBM consultant.
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@Xyro said:
Also, look how much this guy is concentrating on drawing little businessmen icons on a transparent whiteboard at arm's length:
He's not even drawing them! They're copypasted.
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@Xyro said:
Also, look how much this guy is concentrating on drawing little businessmen icons on a transparent whiteboard at arm's length:
It would be much easier for him to draw the lines if he were closer to the whiteboard, so that he wouldn't have to focus on steadying his arm so much. Yet he knows that if he gets too close, he might smudge up his purple tie. I believe this mentality represents the prototypicalIBMWebSphere consultant.FTFY. If he's wearing a purple tie, he must be part of WebSphere. Gotta keep your IBM brand color codings straight.
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@MatNewman said:
I've never quite seen the point of 'sort by sender' - what does it give you over, say, typing "from:bob@example.com" in the gmail search box if you know which sender you're after? All the sort by sender that I've seen does is sort them in some sort of alphabetical order that you have to search through anyway to find the sender you were after.@Xyro said:
Gmail also does that all
Sort by sender. (as in Full Stop!)
Oh. You Cant!
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@MatNewman said:
Sort by sender. (as in Full Stop!)
Oh. You Cant!
Yeah... it's inconvenient the way that "Search" doesn't show you the entries alphabetically before & after what you were looking for.
