But we can't afford EAs or books



  • I was at my son's school today and noticed that in their library, they have 4 Macs.... all running Windows XP. I'm pretty sure there are more of them in the classrooms. So, they spend twice as much on hardware, plus buy the Windows licenses. And yet they complain that there is no money.



  • @JoeCool said:

    I was at my son's school today and noticed that in their library, they have 4 Macs.... all running Windows XP.

    Chuckled at this for a good bit, thanks!

    @JoeCool said:

    So, they spend twice as much on hardware, plus buy the Windows licenses. And yet they complain that there is no money.

    Theory: someone wouldn't shut up about how much better Macs are, and no one else wanted to switch because they wanted to be able to use their computers the same way they always have. Sounds like a fair compromise to me!



  • Why would your son's school need to spend money on Electronic Arts titles? It's a school!



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    Why would your son's school need to spend money on Electronic Arts titles? It's a school!
     

    Hehe. Educational Assistants. Not sure if they use that same term in the U.S.



  • @JoeCool said:

    I was at my son's school today and noticed that in their library, they have 4 Macs.... all running Windows XP. I'm pretty sure there are more of them in the classrooms. So, they spend twice as much on hardware, plus buy the Windows licenses. And yet they complain that there is no money.

     

    Something something Apple Education Pricing something something complete.



  • @lettucemode said:

    Theory: someone wouldn't shut up about how much better Macs are, and no one else wanted to switch because they wanted to be able to use their computers the same way they always have. Sounds like a fair compromise to me!
     

     More likely theory, they were 'donated' the Macs or obtained them under some sort of Apple education promo, then realised that the school district policy is that all machines must have installed a suite of (Windows-only) applications.



  • Schools probably pay the ridiculous amount of $5/FTE for Windows. Also: is there any serious  'educational' software available for a non-Windows OS, or is using a web browser considered education these days? Well, maybe except for KhanAcademy.



  • 1) Apple has great programs for free (or nearly so) hardware for educational purposes.

    2) Microsoft has similar programs for their software products.

    Ergo, it may have cost nothing for the setup you see.....

    3) Most people are more exposed to Windows so there is (At least percieved) benefit from the schools using Windows [XP in this day and age is a WTF]

    So where is the problem?



  • @TheCPUWizard said:

    1) Apple has great programs for free (or nearly so) hardware for educational purposes.

    2) Microsoft has similar programs for their software products.

    Ergo, it may have cost nothing for the setup you see.....

    3) Most people are more exposed to Windows so there is (At least percieved) benefit from the schools using Windows [XP in this day and age is a WTF]

    So where is the problem?

     

     

    Seeing several Macs running XP doesn't give you at least an initial thought of WTF? 

    Also, please site your source for schools in Ontario, Canada getting free Macs. The most I could find were references to $200 discounts. I know in the States, your teachers are dramatically underpaid, but it is the opposite here.

     



  • @JoeCool said:

    I know in the States, your teachers are dramatically underpaid, but it is the opposite here.

    Which states? Mexican? I'm not familiar with their school systems.



  • @JoeCool said:

    @TheCPUWizard said:

    1) Apple has great programs for free (or nearly so) hardware for educational purposes.

    2) Microsoft has similar programs for their software products.

    Ergo, it may have cost nothing for the setup you see.....

    3) Most people are more exposed to Windows so there is (At least percieved) benefit from the schools using Windows [XP in this day and age is a WTF]

    So where is the problem?

     

    Seeing several Macs running XP doesn't give you at least an initial thought of WTF? 

    Also, please site your source for schools in Ontario, Canada getting free Macs. The most I could find were references to $200 discounts. I know in the States, your teachers are dramatically underpaid, but it is the opposite here.

    Not public school teachers. If you factor in summer vacation, teachers are paid comparable to programmers :/



  • @this_code_sucks said:

    Not public school teachers. If you factor in summer vacation, teachers are paid comparable to programmers :/

     

     Which is how they afford to go to Cuba or the Dominican twice a year.

     



  • @JoeCool said:

    hey afford to go to Cuba or the Dominican twice a year.

    Hmmm, I thought that most of the people from the US couldn't go to Cuba at all because you need a permission from your government and that is hard to come by.



  • @serguey123 said:

    @JoeCool said:
    hey afford to go to Cuba or the Dominican twice a year.

    Hmmm, I thought that most of the people from the US couldn't go to Cuba at all because you need a permission from your government and that is hard to come by.

     

     

    Which part of this made you think I live in the US?

    @JoeCool said:

    Also, please site your source for schools in Ontario, Canada getting free Macs.

     @JoeCool said:

    I know in the States, your teachers are dramatically underpaid, but it is the opposite here. 

     

     



  • @JoeCool said:

    Which part of this made you think I live in the US?
    @JoeCool said:
    Also, please site your source for schools in Ontario, Canada getting free Macs.

    @JoeCool said:
    I know in the States, your teachers are dramatically underpaid, but it is the opposite here.

    Isn't Ontario one of the 57 states?



  • @JoeCool said:

    Which part of this made you think I live in the US?

    This part

    @JoeCool said:

    Ontario, Canada



  • @serguey123 said:

    @JoeCool said:
    Which part of this made you think I live in the US?

    This part

    @JoeCool said:

    Ontario, Canada
     

    Don't assume I'm in Toronto.



  • @JoeCool said:

    Don't assume I'm in Toronto.



    I was under the inpression that the rest of Canada was virgin wilderness.



  • @boomzilla said:

    @JoeCool said:
    Which part of this made you think I live in the US?
    @JoeCool said:
    Also, please site your source for schools in Ontario, Canada getting free Macs.

    @JoeCool said:
    I know in the States, your teachers are dramatically underpaid, but it is the opposite here.

    Isn't Ontario one of the 57 states?

    Actually there are 58 states (according to Obama).



  • @this_code_sucks said:

    @JoeCool said:

    Don't assume I'm in Toronto.



    I was under the inpression that the rest of Canada was virgin wilderness.

    Canada is full of virgins. Yuk yuk.



  • @Speakerphone Dude said:

    @boomzilla said:
    @JoeCool said:
    Which part of this made you think I live in the US?
    @JoeCool said:
    Also, please site your source for schools in Ontario, Canada getting free Macs.

    @JoeCool said:
    I know in the States, your teachers are dramatically underpaid, but it is the opposite here.

    Isn't Ontario one of the 57 states?

    Actually there are 58 states (according to Obama).

    He was referencing the Obama flub, but it was 57 states, not 58.

    I can already tell I'm going to get real tired of correcting your sorry ass.



  • @boomzilla said:

    @JoeCool said:
    Which part of this made you think I live in the US?
    @JoeCool said:
    Also, please site your source for schools in Ontario, Canada getting free Macs.

    @JoeCool said:
    I know in the States, your teachers are dramatically underpaid, but it is the opposite here.

    Isn't Ontario one of the 57 states?

    I'll remember that when you come knocking for clean water...



  • @this_code_sucks said:

    Not public school teachers. If you factor in summer vacation, teachers are paid comparable to programmers :/

    Even figuring in summer vacation and other elements, I would find it very difficult to find programmers with Master's [6+ year] degrees in their field willing to work for under $40K /yr.



  • @TheCPUWizard said:

    @this_code_sucks said:
    Not public school teachers. If you factor in summer vacation, teachers are paid comparable to programmers :/

    Even figuring in summer vacation and other elements, I would find it very difficult to find programmers with Master's [6+ year] degrees in their field willing to work for under $40K /yr.

    That seems...low, although maybe for someone who's only gone to school, I could believe it. Of course, you're only counting salary. The health insurance benies are probably at least $15K/year (not to mention all the money they save by avoiding co-pays). Pension benefits are pretty damn high, too, although you have to believe that your state won't go tits up before you get paid. But still, I think you can get tenure after 3 years or so, which is pretty damn valuable.

    But let's also mention the fact that a master's degree in education isn't the same as a master's in something useful. Same for the bachelor's degree.

    YMMV, but this is based on friends and relatives who are teachers on both coasts and in the midwest.



  • @TheCPUWizard said:

    @this_code_sucks said:

    Not public school teachers. If you factor in summer vacation, teachers are paid comparable to programmers :/

    Even figuring in summer vacation and other elements, I would find it very difficult to find programmers with Master's [6+ year] degrees in their field willing to work for under $40K /yr.

    They're only working 9 months /year so they're actually making $53k /yr. There are probably areas of the country where a junior programmer (MS or not) is going to make about that. Add in gold-plated benefits and retirement at 55, and the teachers are ahead. The $40k is a starting figure; teachers who have been on the job longer make more, as with any job.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Pension benefits are pretty damn high, too, although you have to believe that your state won't go tits up before you get paid.

    A lot of the teachers I've known wouldn't even realize that their pensions come from taxpayers or that they might disappear. And retiring at 55 is pretty fucking sweet; the rest of us stiffs gotta work 33% more in our careers. Hell, if you have halfway reasonable health, you'll live to 85 and collect a pension for as long as you worked.



  • @TheCPUWizard said:

    @this_code_sucks said:

    Not public school teachers. If you factor in summer vacation, teachers are paid comparable to programmers :/

    Even figuring in summer vacation and other elements, I would find it very difficult to find programmers with Master's [6+ year] degrees in their field willing to work for under $40K /yr.

    We are talking about teachers in Ontario! The average salary is $90k, their pension owns Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, and their union is powerful. The pretty much decide who the Premier will be.



  • @JoeCool said:

    @TheCPUWizard said:

    @this_code_sucks said:

    Not public school teachers. If you factor in summer vacation, teachers are paid comparable to programmers :/

    Even figuring in summer vacation and other elements, I would find it very difficult to find programmers with Master's [6+ year] degrees in their field willing to work for under $40K /yr.

    We are talking about teachers in Ontario! The average salary is $90k, their pension owns Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, and their union is powerful. The pretty much decide who the Premier will be.

    HA HA HA HA!!! Oh God, I think ripped my spleen..

    Your country is dominated by teachers?! HA HA HA HA HA!!!



  • @JoeCool said:

    The pretty much decide who the Premier will be.

    You have a Premier? Welcome to Soviet Ontario.



  • First Ontario was a state, now it's a country



  • @blakeyrat said:

    You have a Premier? Welcome to Soviet Ontario.

    In Soviet Ontario, teacher premiere Premier.



  • I expected better of you, Morbius. Echoing a lame Slashdot cliche? Son I am disappoint.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I expected better of you, Morbius. Echoing a lame Slashdot cliche? Son I am disappoint.

    Ah, but see, it's funny because it's not funny.

    Or something.



  • @JoeCool said:

    Seeing several Macs running XP doesn't give you at least an initial thought of WTF? 

    On my walk to work (through a Westfield shopping centre) most of the little shops in the middle of the strip have iMacs - and they all run either Windows XP (mostly) with a few Windows 7 (AFAICT). I got an X-ray a few months ago and the clinic had a few iMacs in the waiting area for customer use - running OSX, but the receptionists had iMacs running XP. I've heard of other companies doing similar things too. So it's quite common.

    I do think it is a bit WTFy spending the bucks on Apple hardware but then running Windows - especially XP - on it. I think it is mostly done for the "coolness" factor of the Apple logo rather than other factors.

    @JoeCool said:

    The most I could find were references to $200 discounts.

    Do you get a "not-USA" surcharge like here in Australia? A product crosses a border and suddenly the price jumps 10-50% (plus tax). Even though we are closer to China than you guys! Even for Internet-delivered items.



  • Oh please, Canadian territories are not part of the US. We barely tolerate Californians, like hell we'd put up with those uppity French assholes.



  • My wife's a teacher in Ontario (high school science), so if I may interrupt your complete wrongness for a moment, I'd like to point out how completely wrong you are:

    @JoeCool said:

    We are talking about teachers in Ontario! The average salary is $90k

    Bull-fucking-shit. 2011-2012 salary is:

    Minimum (0 years experience, 0 extra credentials): $44,127

    Maximum (10+ years experience, exemplary credentials + extra qualifiers): $94,653.

    Average: $69k, and I'm sure it's less: This isn't an exact bell curve. Many teachers don't reach category 4 (credentials & qualifiers), and the experience distribution is more weighted towards the bottom.

    (And before any chimes in with "summers off omg!", school runs until the end of June, and teachers are back in the building last week in August. At most, 2 months off. And when you balance that out with all the unpaid overtime for evenings and weekends, that's the actual yearly salary.

    [url="http://www.osstf.on.ca/adx/aspx/adxGetMedia.aspx?DocID=3952,3949,580,442,365,Documents&MediaID=686&Filename=wheretoteach-Nov-2006.pdf"]This is public information[/url] Page 6. Sorry about the PDF, but like everything technology in education, it's retarded.

    @JoeCool said:

    their pension owns Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment,

    Disingenuous. Ontario teacher's pension is run by a private company, and is funded by salary. The "tax payer" didn't buy them the Maple Leafs. The teachers pooled their money, gave it to an investment firm and said "Make these fucking Loonies breed like bitches!". People bitch and complain about the pension plan with this undertone of "they don't deserve that much money, they should give it back".  Pisses me the fuck off.  How about you (not you personally, dear reader) give your boss the interest from your savings account and investments. Because you earned more money than he gave you, and you don't deserve it. Fucker.

    @JoeCool said:

    and their union is powerful. The pretty much decide who the Premier will be.
     

    FUD.

    Rough estimate numbers: Say about 6000 OSSTF members, and 3.6million eligible voters in Ontario. In 2007, only about 1.8 million voted. Yes, the union has lots of influence, and heavily encourage members to vote for one candidate or the other, but hardly a kingmaker.

    That being said, yes the union is powerful and influential-- but if you ever witnessed some of the crap administration and parents tried to pull, it's justifiable. 



  • @JoeCool said:

    @TheCPUWizard said:

    1) Apple has great programs for free (or nearly so) hardware for educational purposes.

    2) Microsoft has similar programs for their software products.

    Ergo, it may have cost nothing for the setup you see.....

    3) Most people are more exposed to Windows so there is (At least percieved) benefit from the schools using Windows [XP in this day and age is a WTF]

    So where is the problem?

     

     

    Seeing several Macs running XP doesn't give you at least an initial thought of WTF? 

    Also, please site your source for schools in Ontario, Canada getting free Macs. The most I could find were references to $200 discounts. I know in the States, your teachers are dramatically underpaid, but it is the opposite here.

     

     

    It's the opposite in the USA, too, as in: the opposite of being underpaid.  Largely, they aren't.  Plus, they go on strike if you even suggest they should throw two or three of their own dollars into their retirement or health care costs.

     



  • @Lorne Kates said:

    My wife's a teacher in Ontario (high school science), so if I may interrupt your complete wrongness for a moment, I'd like to point out how completely wrong you are:

    @JoeCool said:

    We are talking about teachers in Ontario! The average salary is $90k

    Bull-fucking-shit. 2011-2012 salary is:

    Minimum (0 years experience, 0 extra credentials): $44,127

    Maximum (10+ years experience, exemplary credentials + extra qualifiers): $94,653.

    Average: $69k, and I'm sure it's less: This isn't an exact bell curve. Many teachers don't reach category 4 (credentials & qualifiers), and the experience distribution is more weighted towards the bottom.

    (And before any chimes in with "summers off omg!", school runs until the end of June, and teachers are back in the building last week in August. At most, 2 months off. And when you balance that out with all the unpaid overtime for evenings and weekends, that's the actual yearly salary.

    This is public information Page 6. Sorry about the PDF, but like everything technology in education, it's retarded.

    @JoeCool said:

    their pension owns Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment,

    Disingenuous. Ontario teacher's pension is run by a private company, and is funded by salary. The "tax payer" didn't buy them the Maple Leafs. The teachers pooled their money, gave it to an investment firm and said "Make these fucking Loonies breed like bitches!". People bitch and complain about the pension plan with this undertone of "they don't deserve that much money, they should give it back".  Pisses me the fuck off.  How about you (not you personally, dear reader) give your boss the interest from your savings account and investments. Because you earned more money than he gave you, and you don't deserve it. Fucker.

    @JoeCool said:

    and their union is powerful. The pretty much decide who the Premier will be.
     

    FUD.

    Rough estimate numbers: Say about 6000 OSSTF members, and 3.6million eligible voters in Ontario. In 2007, only about 1.8 million voted. Yes, the union has lots of influence, and heavily encourage members to vote for one candidate or the other, but hardly a kingmaker.

    That being said, yes the union is powerful and influential-- but if you ever witnessed some of the crap administration and parents tried to pull, it's justifiable. 

    +1 Informative



  • @Lorne Kates said:

    My wife's a teacher in Ontario [...] Minimum (0 years experience, 0 extra credentials): $44,127

    There is the answer: your wife is a woman, and therefore rightfully earn less than half the salary of a man doing the same job (in this case, $90k). Schools can get away with it because women are bad at math.

    Of course I'm kidding, but this being said, Ontario as a whole is bad at math. Otherwise why would they need the rest of Canada to send them $3.2 billions in equalization payment? Ah I know, Ontario needs that money so they can pay the garbage men in Toronto, subsidize muslim courts and legalize prostitution. Also the province is losing lots of money since the last two federal elections; it's hard to wet your beak with taxpayers money when the elected officials are penny-pinchers from Alberta instead of corrupt lawyers from Ottawa and Toronto.



  • @Lorne Kates said:

    The "tax payer" didn't buy them the Maple Leafs. The teachers pooled their money,
    Out of interest, where did 'their money' originally come from, if it was not from the tax payer (i.e. through taxes)?



  • @PJH said:

    @Lorne Kates said:
    The "tax payer" didn't buy them the Maple Leafs. The teachers pooled their money,

    Out of interest, where did 'their money' originally come from, if it was not from the tax payer (i.e. through taxes)?

    Yes, yes, we've been over this before. Obviously they're paid by taxpayers. But the point is that out of their salaries, they put aside some money with which to pay pensions, and it gets invested. Here in the US, usually the state kicks some extra money into an investment fund in order to pay for pensions. However, the pensions are typically fixed benefit, which has nothing to actually do with the amount that's been put away.

    And then if when the fund runs out of money, the taxpayers are on the hook to fill the gap. The shortfall is practically guaranteed to happen as more and more pensioners accumulate and politicians use the pension funds as a way to balance their budgets, but making smaller contributions when they're a little short. Also, their assumptions about investment growth are way too optimistic.



  • http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=87a4c1b1-0b71-4271-9392-7eae48f18210
    That is an article from 2008 where Dalton said teachers should be happy with an average salary of 90k, but they wanted more.

    I also have relatives that are teachers and I know a school trustee. The union does more than suggest who to vote for. They do things like distribute pamphlets to teachers telling them which candidate to vote for as trustee. They tell teachers that they are all automatically donating to a candidate and that they have to opt-out if they don't want to donate. But they better have a good reason. These activities should be illegal, and when the union gets called on it, they just say "oops", our mistake and get away with it.



  • @JoeCool said:

    http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=87a4c1b1-0b71-4271-9392-7eae48f18210
    That is an article from 2008 where Dalton said teachers should be happy with an average salary of 90k, but they wanted more.

    I also have relatives that are teachers and I know a school trustee. The union does more than suggest who to vote for. They do things like distribute pamphlets to teachers telling them which candidate to vote for as trustee. They tell teachers that they are all automatically donating to a candidate and that they have to opt-out if they don't want to donate. But they better have a good reason. These activities should be illegal, and when the union gets called on it, they just say "oops", our mistake and get away with it.

    They're worse than the TTC... and that's saying a lot.



  • @PJH said:

    @Lorne Kates said:
    The "tax payer" didn't buy them the Maple Leafs. The teachers pooled their money,
    Out of interest, where did 'their money' originally come from, if it was not from the tax payer (i.e. through taxes)?
     

    As I said, disingenuous.  Every public servant's money comes from the "tax payer", but the relationship ends once the salary's been forked over. Does the garbageman's car belong to the taxpayer? How about the burger being eaten by the IRS agent? Office Frank's daughter's braces?

    The tax payer gave the teachers a salary. They pooled their money together, and using the interest form those investments, bought the Maple Leafs.



  • @JoeCool said:

    http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=87a4c1b1-0b71-4271-9392-7eae48f18210
    That is an article from 2008 where Dalton said teachers should be happy with an average salary of 90k, but they wanted more.
     

    I have no idea where they're getting their numbers from, but:

    1) I really wish Dalton would go away. His only saving grace is that he's not the Conservatives. The fact that he's agreed to work with Bob Rae, and is retaining Mike Harris' legal team should tell you a few things there.

    2) I have no clue where he's getting his numbers from. I pointed out the salary grid for secondary teachers. Elementary teachers make less.  Maybe they're adding in principal salaries?  Or worse, trustee/board admin salaries-- fuck, you want to know where there's waste in the school system, take a look there-- which when you take into account stupid-high salaries and "hidden" bonuses/gratuities, it'd skew the average a hell of a lot.

    3) (At least in Ontario, and probably BC) teacher contract negotiations  are very rarely about the money, but that's what make the press. There are things going on in this round that have absolutely nothing to do with money, and everything to do with the government posturing and trying to pull borderline illegal stuff. I'm privvy to some of the inside information, but until the negotiations are over, I can't really comment. If you do have a relative who is a teacher in Ontario at the moment, go ask them about some of the court challenges that are being pursued. Take a look at what's gone down in BC for more of a clue.

    @JoeCool said:

    The union does more than suggest who to vote for. They do things like distribute pamphlets to teachers telling them which candidate to vote for as trustee.

    Yes, so does every large organization. "Of all the candidates, this one's agenda is most closely aligned with our best interests".  Given that the union represents public servants, who are most directly effected by "the new boss", it makes sense.

    @JoeCool said:

    They tell teachers that they are all automatically donating to a candidate and that they have to opt-out if they don't want to donate. But they better have a good reason. These activities should be illegal, and when the union gets called on it, they just say "oops", our mistake and get away with it.

     wtf? Are you talking about the Toronto elections:

    http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2011/07/08/18396306.html

    Because aside from that one article, I can't find any reference to what you're talking about.

    If this was a union decision, then there were standard surveys and notices sent out. (I vaguely recall something about it in 2011, but not enough to argue the point).  But honestly, that's how large organizations work. "Hey everyone, here's a survey. Whatdyall think?"  Followed later by "Here's what we're doing. Anyone has an issue, let us know."



  • @Lorne Kates said:

    I really wish Dalton would go away.
     

    The teachers keep voting him in.

     @Lorne Kates said:

    teacher contract negotiations  are very rarely about the money,

    Right... they are also about "prep time". Pretty soon the kids will only have recess.

     @Lorne Kates said:

    wtf? Are you talking about the Toronto elections

    No. I was talking directly with teachers who had this happen.

     



  • @JoeCool said:

    @Lorne Kates said:

    I really wish Dalton would go away.
     

    The teachers keep voting him in.

     @Lorne Kates said:

    teacher contract negotiations  are very rarely about the money,

    Right... they are also about "prep time". Pretty soon the kids will only have recess.

     @Lorne Kates said:

    wtf? Are you talking about the Toronto elections

    No. I was talking directly with teachers who had this happen.

     

     

     

    BTW: just to be clear, I'm not complaining about teachers specifically. More about the unions. Most teachers I know aren't exactly happy with all of the actions the union has taken.

     



  • @JoeCool said:

    @Lorne Kates said:

    I really wish Dalton would go away.
     

    The teachers keep voting him in.

     

    I think that'll be "kept" soon enough. They'll never vote in the PCs, especially not with Hudak aka. Harris Jr. in the lead. The NDP are a real alternative, if they can get away from the Rae Day spectre.

    (BTW: For anyone outside of Ontario, I understand this sounds like 'I think that hoogle mc ra ra zerwerger foozwat'. Sorry)

     

     



  • @Lorne Kates said:

    (BTW: For anyone outside of Ontario, I understand this sounds like 'I think that hoogle mc ra ra zerwerger foozwat'. Sorry)

    That's okay. I'm just gratified that George W. Bush's efforts to spread democracy to your country have succeeded.


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