At White Castle...



  • @nonpartisan said:

    This is the reason why stores cannot conduct business when the power goes out. No one knows how to do it manually any more.

    I'm sorry, have you seen the tax code? Our lovely government has made it virtually impossible to do a transaction without a computer in any case.

    @nonpartisan said:

    Still, they'd be able to keep sales going.  That's what used to happen.

    What happens now is that 99% of businesses realize that without any power, they can't provide the goods/service they're supposed to. So they either have a backup generator (which can also power the registers), or they close (because there's no point to, say, going to a movie theater if the power is out.)

    That, plus the fact that unless you live in the Congo the power only goes out maybe once every 3 years, for an hour... I put that in my "non-issue" file.

    @nonpartisan said:

    We are supposed to be in charge of the computer. We're supposed to know more than the computer. The day we blindly turn it all over to the computer is the beginning of the end of the human race. Sorry, but the attitude of "let the machine do it" is a dangerous, fucked-up attitude at best.

    Ooo! I watched the Terminator and it made me all scared!!! And the Forbin Project! And 2001: A Space Odyssey!! Hollywood says computers are eviiil so they must be!

    Fuck.

    Don't base your life around retarded ideas from hack science fiction writers. That applies double to Scientologists.

    @nonpartisan said:

    Hell, you've seen and posted WTFs on this site. Do you really believe that the machine can do it "seamlessly, instantly, and perfectly" every single time?

    Have any of the WTFs been due to a computer making a math error? Ever? In the history of this site? I don't recall any.

    @nonpartisan said:

    I don't, and my kids are being taught to trust-but-verify when it comes to the output of any computer.

    Fine. Teach them whatever you want. We teach kids a lot of useless shit. Just don't pretend it's useful, that's all I ask.

    And stop fucking double-spacing, what are you, 80? You wish you were back on your Smith-Corona electric typeriffic or what the fuck ancient fucking device required double-spacing between sentences? Join the rest of us in the 21st century, leave those ancient Greeks behind and come our way.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    What happens now is that 99% of businesses realize that without any power, they can't provide the goods/service they're supposed to. So they either have a backup generator (which can also power the registers), or they close (because there's no point to, say, going to a movie theater if the power is out.)

    Wow.  Just . . . wow . . .

    Really?  You deduce that when I say "reason why stores cannot conduct business" that I'm referring to a movie theater too???  Dude, get to bed.  You need your sleep.  Of course there are businesses that, due to their very nature, rely on having electricity.  Movie theaters.  Factories.  Print shops.  Etc.  Hint:  I'm not talking about them.

    @blakeyrat said:

    That, plus the fact that unless you live in the Congo the power only goes out maybe once every 3 years, for an hour... I put that in my "non-issue" file

    So, since problems occur so rarely, you don't prepare for them?  I take it you don't back up your data then because, hell, hard drives only fail once every several years?  That's a non-issue?  You live in the lovely Pacific Northwest.  What if that power went out for several days due to something unforeseen?  Say, oh, maybe a major earthquake?

    @blakeyrat said:

    Don't base your life around retarded ideas from hack science fiction writers. That applies double to Scientologists.

    Perhaps a little hyperbolic saying the end of the human race, but the two most basic, essential skills from which all other abilities are founded are reading and math.  To advocate for not having to learn mathematics, you may as well advocate for not learning to read, because the computer can just read it to you.  And we've got books on tape.  Who needs to be able to read?  What a useless skill that is!

    @blakeyrat said:

    Have any of the WTFs been due to a computer making a math error? Ever? In the history of this site? I don't recall any.

    "Dear Mr. Blakey Rat, Your bill of $0.00 is overdue.  If you do not reconcile this within seven days from the date of this letter, we will be turning your account over to WTF Collections Agency.  If you have any questions, please call (800) BITE-ME, or log on to www.cantdomathworthshit.com."  Underlying those letters are mathematically-related errors, likely due to rounding, probably someone used floating point improperly . . . but whatever the reason, an uncorrected mathematical error has occurred behind the scenes.  Or any of those "Your video will start in 6.99999999999999999993 seconds" errors.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Fine. Teach them whatever you want. We teach kids a lot of useless shit. Just don't pretend it's useful, that's all I ask.

    I won't pretend it's useful.  I will emphasize with every lesson that knowing math is something they will genuinely use on a daily basis in their lives.

    @blakeyrat said:

    And stop fucking double-spacing, what are you, 80? You wish you were back on your Smith-Corona electric typeriffic or what the fuck ancient fucking device required double-spacing between sentences? Join the rest of us in the 21st century, leave those ancient Greeks behind and come our way.

    Are you talking about putting two spaces in-between sentences?  Like this?  Just out of high school, 1990, I went to work for a secretarial/answering service.  Learned how to properly type a paragraph for business correspondence on Ashton-Tate's MultiMate word processing software.  PC-XT class machines.  Canon LBP-II laser printer.   The printer had 512KB of memory.  The only useful font was Courier.  So everything we typed was fixed space with two spaces in-between each sentence.  I learned proofreading skills there.  Proofreading skills have declined a bit (yes, I know I make grammatical errors, bite me) but I came out of that experience with an eye for detail.  When we need a peer review of new equipment configurations at work, most of my peers turn to me first.  Several of the little things I find may be considered to be pedantic and perhaps not strictly necessary, but ultimately I receive high praise from them.  When I ask my colleagues for a peer review as per SOP, sometimes it doesn't get done fast enough.  They'll still come back and say, "We know you configured it -- it's probably just fine!"  I can attribute this back to my early experiences in double-checking work.

    Translation:  I'll type my posts any fucking way I want.  What a thin skin you must have if you can't stand seeing two spaces between sentences.

    So I graduated high school in 1990.  That doesn't make me 80.  If it's now 2012, I'll let you make a guess as to my age.  Without using a calculator.



  • @CarnivorousHippie said:

    @blakeyrat said:

    Teaching your kids skeptical thinking will get them a hell of a lot further in life than making change.

    Change that to 'critical thinking' ("you're wrong and I can explain") and I'd agree.  Skeptical thinking ("you're wrong and I'm right") is what he practices now.

    Skeptical thinking means: "you said something and you may be right, but I'm not taking your word for it". The word for "you're wrong and I'm right" is "faith".



  • @toon said:

    The word for "you're wrong and I'm right" is "faith".

    Is it? Here I thought that definition was "I'm right but I can't prove it." 



  • @nonpartisan said:

    Translation:  I'll type my posts any fucking way I want.  What a thin skin you must have if you can't stand seeing two spaces between sentences.

    So I graduated high school in 1990.  That doesn't make me 80.


    I graduated high school in 1989, and yet I've managed to adapt to the fact that with modern computer typography systems, double spacing at the end of sentences is counterproductive. You could do it too.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    @toon said:
    There are, however, different kinds of high schools.

    I would say the offensive part to Americans is the fact that a child's options are so set in stone at a young age.

    Except, they're not: if you go to one level of high school and turn out to be capable of doing a higher one, you will (should?) be encouraged to go to that one instead the next year — and vice-versa, though it's usually a bit more enforced in that direction.



  • @Gurth said:

    @morbiuswilters said:
    @toon said:
    There are, however, different kinds of high schools.

    I would say the offensive part to Americans is the fact that a child's options are so set in stone at a young age.

    Except, they're not: if you go to one level of high school and turn out to be capable of doing a higher one, you will (should?) be encouraged to go to that one instead the next year — and vice-versa, though it's usually a bit more enforced in that direction.

    Good point. I've actually seen that happen myself quite a few times, when I was in high school.



  • @Scarlet Manuka said:

    I graduated high school in 1989, and yet I've managed to adapt to the fact that with modern computer typography systems, double spacing at the end of sentences is counterproductive. You could do it too.

    Counterproductive? Because of the extra fraction of a second it takes for the muscle memory to type that extra space? Extra bandwidth? Overwhelming our hard drives? I love it when the people who whine the most about pedantic dickweedery get their panties in a twist because of a few extra spaces. It almost makes me want to triple space. Oh, the humanity!



  • @boomzilla said:

    @Scarlet Manuka said:
    I graduated high school in 1989, and yet I've managed to adapt to the fact that with modern computer typography systems, double spacing at the end of sentences is counterproductive. You could do it too.

    Counterproductive? Because of the extra fraction of a second it takes for the muscle memory to type that extra space? Extra bandwidth? Overwhelming our hard drives? I love it when the people who whine the most about pedantic dickweedery get their panties in a twist because of a few extra spaces. It almost makes me want to triple space. Oh, the humanity!

    One doesn't need a double space after a period when using a non-fixed-width font. If you only have Courier (or similar) then by all means double space. Too bad HTML needs  s everywhere to actually see your triple spacing. But I don't care; I don't even see many mistakes any more on forums: I used to be a bit of a grammar nazi but now I CBF'd.

    FTR I was born in 1981 and graduated high school 1997. I was put forward a grade early primary school because I was too advanced academically.



  • @CarnivorousHippie said:

    (2) This $3.88 breakfast was typical for me, and once (maybe on this occasion) I gave the cashier $10.13 because I only had a ten and change and wanted to get rid of some of it... and (after a confused look) got back the original 13 cents and then the $6.12.
     

    Ahhh yes, I've been on the receiving end of that confused look too - and it's even more tragic here because our smallest coin is 5c (not 1c) and everything else is a multiple of 10c, so the maths should be even easier. These days I don't both trying anything like that unless cashier is at least 35, because otherwise they get confused. Even when the cash register calculates the change for them.



  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @CarnivorousHippie said:

    @rpjs said:

     The other day at a Hale and Hearty Soups in Manhattan I tended a $20 bill for a purchase of $9.77.  The girl at the till hit the $50 button for the amount tendered, so the till indicated she give change of $40.23.  She spotted that she'd made a mistake, and apologised, and then left the till before I could say anything.  She brought back a calculator to work out what the change should have been...

     Americans shouldn't feel too bad though - I've witnessed similar muppetry in my home country of England as well.

    I have a fast-food receipt from 2008 taped to my cube wall which I keep as a reminder...  It's for $3.88 (two breakfast burritos), and printed near the bottom is:

    CTND    .12

    Yes, they print the Change To the Next Dollar on the receipt in case the carhops (that might be a clue) need to make change.

    This is why I no longer feel squeamish about using a credit card for a $4 meal.

    You know that means "Cash TeNDered", not Change to The Next Dollar, right?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    @CarnivorousHippie said:
    (1) I'm concerned that they learn elementary math skills (and making change is exactly that) because otherwise, when they have kids, the parents will be ill-equipped to reinforce the importance of these same skills. I adopted one at age 14 who came from this environment, and even now at age 18, he's only able to do elementary math.

    I think we've had this discussion way back in the nebulous past on this forum, but here goes again.

    My reaction to this is: so?

    Until someone proves a coorelation between "math skills" and "quality of life", I'm always going to answer "so what?" when people complain that Kids These Days (tm) can't do math without a calculator. Guess what? I can't do math without a calculator. Hell, I can barely do math with a calculator (I get dyslexic if numbers have more than 4 digits). That's exactly why I learned computers-- so I could tell the computer to do it for me and give me a result I could copy and paste elsewhere. And, at the risk of being "that guy", I make more money than all of my friends and family*-- primarily because I work with computers in an area with a large and healthy IT market.

    Even cheap crappy jobs already have computers doing this work for you. I mean, we're talking about it right now: you enter the amount tendered, and the computer tells you exactly how much change.

    Step back. Think about your assumptions. If someone tells you, "man these kids won't get anywhere in life if they can't make change," your brain should instantly respond with, "what... is that true? Prove it."

    Teaching your kids skeptical thinking will get them a hell of a lot further in life than making change.

    *) Including my brother, who was in "Math Olympiads" in school.

    And then the power goes out, and your customers wait in line forever because you can't figure out how much change to give 'em.



  • @Sutherlands said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    Labeling people is not "just vernacular". It's offensive, and it's wrong.
    Why is it different from "left-brained" vs "right-brained"?
     

    It's different in that it exists.



  • @FrostCat said:

    @CarnivorousHippie said:

    @rpjs said:

     The other day at a Hale and Hearty Soups in Manhattan I tended a $20 bill for a purchase of $9.77.  The girl at the till hit the $50 button for the amount tendered, so the till indicated she give change of $40.23.  She spotted that she'd made a mistake, and apologised, and then left the till before I could say anything.  She brought back a calculator to work out what the change should have been...

     Americans shouldn't feel too bad though - I've witnessed similar muppetry in my home country of England as well.

    I have a fast-food receipt from 2008 taped to my cube wall which I keep as a reminder...  It's for $3.88 (two breakfast burritos), and printed near the bottom is:

    CTND    .12

    Yes, they print the Change To the Next Dollar on the receipt in case the carhops (that might be a clue) need to make change.

    This is why I no longer feel squeamish about using a credit card for a $4 meal.

    You know that means "Cash TeNDered", not Change to The Next Dollar, right?


    Cash Tendered is how much you gave them, not how much you got in return.





  • @nonpartisan said:

    Really? You deduce that when I say "reason why stores cannot conduct business" that I'm referring to a movie theater too???

    Sure why not?

    @nonpartisan said:

    Hint: I'm not talking about them.

    Oh. Well you should have told me that the first time through.

    @nonpartisan said:

    So, since problems occur so rarely, you don't prepare for them? I take it you don't back up your data then because, hell, hard drives only fail once every several years? That's a non-issue?  You live in the lovely Pacific Northwest. What if that power went out for several days due to something unforeseen? Say, oh, maybe a major earthquake?

    I think we're pretty well prepared for earthquakes. Except that damned Alaskan Way Viaduct. I mean, assertions like that are obviously not worth much until the earthquake actually happens, but I'm optimistic about the whole thing.

    I don't understand why you think lack of math abilities would cause death in an earthquake, though. Because... people can't do cash transactions manually? This is your priority in a natural disaster? Selling shampoo?

    @nonpartisan said:

    Perhaps a little hyperbolic saying the end of the human race, but the two most basic, essential skills from which all other abilities are founded are reading and math.

    A little? I'd like to see what you consider a lot.

    Here's a quick pro-tip: if you spout out stupid, wildly exaggerated, hyperbole like it's going out of style, nobody will take you seriously. Sane people understand that the one thing humans are best at is adapting to change (although you wouldn't know it reading this forum, Mr. Type Two Spaces!) and therefore understand that if we lived in a world where computers suddenly disappears, hey wow, we'd figure out how to live in that world. It might be hard for awhile, but it's not going to be the "end of the human race".

    If I read you literally, and you honestly think trusting cash registers implicitly will end civilization, then... well, that goes back to my original reply: 1) you read too much shitty sci-fi, and 2) you're crazy. Like, padded-room crazy.

    @nonpartisan said:

    Underlying those letters are mathematically-related errors, likely due to rounding, probably someone used floating point improperly . . . but whatever the reason, an uncorrected mathematical error has occurred behind the scenes. Or any of those "Your video will start in 6.99999999999999999993 seconds" errors.

    Yeah, I'm just waiting for you to cite an example where a WTF occurred because a computer did math incorrectly. Thanks for bringing up all that random noise that has nothing to do with what I'm asking for, but I'll wait for the actual example.

    @nonpartisan said:

    I will emphasize with every lesson that knowing math is something they will genuinely use on a daily basis in their lives.

    For what?

    @nonpartisan said:

    Are you talking about putting two spaces in-between sentences? Like this? Just out of high school, 1990, I went to work for a secretarial/answering service. Learned how to properly type a paragraph for business correspondence on Ashton-Tate's MultiMate word processing software.

    Even in 1990 it was wrong. You only did it because typewriters (and pre-Macintosh computers) had horrible mono-spaced fonts, and its the only way to make horrible monospaced fonts slightly readable.

    @nonpartisan said:

    Translation: I'll type my posts any fucking way I want. What a thin skin you must have if you can't stand seeing two spaces between sentences.

    Glad you summarized that paragraph because I didn't read the dumb thing.

    From skimming, though, it looks like you're really proud of your "proofreading skills" which are utterly and entirely obsolete, and have been for 20+ years. Congratulations on being a dinosaur, regardless of your age.



  • @da Doctah said:

    It's real, and it's spectacular.

    No White Castle for you!

     



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @CarnivorousHippie said:
    I admit some creative license here, but many (not all) dictionary definitions of 'skeptic' liken it to merely exhibiting doubt or questioning 'accepted' fact. Perhaps a bastardization of the original Greek?
    Oh well here's the problem. You see, I live in the 21st century, and I use 21st century definitions of words. I didn't realize I was talking to a fucking ancient Greek. Christ, what the hell is wrong with people on this forum.

    Sorry, I should have said "many (not all) modern dictionary definitions of 'skeptic' liken it to merely exhibiting doubt or questioning 'accepted' fact".  I didn't think I needed to specify that.

    Back to point:  Thinking skeptically without thinking critically is akin to "I think your position is flawed.  I can't provide a cogent argument to demonstrate it, but I choose to believe it anyway."  Hence, we still have those who profess that the earth is flat.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Here's a quick pro-tip: if you spout out stupid, wildly exaggerated, hyperbole like it's going out of style, nobody will take you seriously.

    QFI



  • @FrostCat said:

    @CarnivorousHippie said:
    CTND    .12

    Yes, they print the Change To the Next Dollar on the receipt in case the carhops (that might be a clue) need to make change.

    You know that means "Cash TeNDered", not Change to The Next Dollar, right?

    Given that (a) I didn't give the carhop 12 cents, and (b) the receipt was printed before any cash was tendered at all, I stick with my explanation.

    But since you bring it up, the receipt also has printed on it "CARD PAID    3.88".  Apparently in this case, I paid with a credit card beforehand.



  • @CarnivorousHippie said:

    Back to point:  Thinking skeptically without thinking critically is akin to "I think your position is flawed.  I can't provide a cogent argument to demonstrate it, but I choose to believe it anyway."  Hence, we still have those who profess that the earth is flat.

    Maybe I'm a moron, but that just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me. A skeptic person who believes something she thinks is flawed, is a logical paradox, unless I'm much mistaken. And I don't mean the kind that has people puzzled because they see something is wrong but can't put their finger on what, btw: I mean the other kind.



  • @toon said:

    @CarnivorousHippie said:

    Back to point:  Thinking skeptically without thinking critically is akin to "I think your position is flawed.  I can't provide a cogent argument to demonstrate it, but I choose to believe it anyway."  Hence, we still have those who profess that the earth is flat.

    Maybe I'm a moron, but that just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me. A skeptic person who believes something she thinks is flawed, is a logical paradox, unless I'm much mistaken. And I don't mean the kind that has people puzzled because they see something is wrong but can't put their finger on what, btw: I mean the other kind.

    Is your "person" the same as your "she"?  If so, that's not what I meant; I meant that person A (the uncritical skeptic) thinks that persons B's position is flawed, yadda yadda.  Change "akin to" to "akin to thinking in this manner:"

    Or, maybe your issue is that "I can't provide a cogent argument to demonstrate it" implies that I can't even prove it to myself, so my own position must be flawed.  If so, I stipulate that if I'm not thinking critically, then I'm not that concerned with the validity of the argument.

    Ooh, I'm having flashbacks to Formal Logic.  Make it stop!



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @nonpartisan said:
    Really? You deduce that when I say "reason why stores cannot conduct business" that I'm referring to a movie theater too???

    Sure why not?

    @nonpartisan said:

    Hint: I'm not talking about them.

    Oh. Well you should have told me that the first time through.

    Wow.  Can't do math and can't read.

    @blakeyrat said:

    @nonpartisan said:
    Underlying those letters are mathematically-related errors, likely due to rounding, probably someone used floating point improperly . . . but whatever the reason, an uncorrected mathematical error has occurred behind the scenes. Or any of those "Your video will start in 6.99999999999999999993 seconds" errors.

    Yeah, I'm just waiting for you to cite an example where a WTF occurred because a computer did math incorrectly. Thanks for bringing up all that random noise that has nothing to do with what I'm asking for, but I'll wait for the actual example.

    If you won't take those, then you won't accept anything.  Because any example I give you're going to point back to it being human-caused.  These errors?  Programming errors by the humans.  Pentium division bug?  Hardware design error by the humans.  A hardware malfunction will be a hardware malfunction and so it won't count either.  Cosmic radiation?  Outside interference, not a computer error.  So by a strict definition, no, the computer is never in error.  However, the result in its output can be untrustworthy, and this is where the problem lies.  It is unrealistic to expect that the output of a computer should automatically be trusted because there are so many human-involved components that can make the output incorrect.  But those components are absolutely necessary, for without them the computer remains nothing more than a pile of sand.

    @blakeyrat said:

    @nonpartisan said:
    I will emphasize with every lesson that knowing math is something they will genuinely use on a daily basis in their lives.

    For what?

    Not even you can be this dense.  But since I have time to kill while babysitting a vendor . . . I've calculated the amount of time left before the bus comes.  I've converted a CIDR prefix to a netmask.  I calculated the beginning and ending addresses for the new subnet.  I've figured out the number of extra spaces in my response post from last night and figured out the number of characters needed to render those in HTML as non-breaking spaces (258).  I've estimated the total of several items in a purchase so I knew whether I had enough cash or not.  These are all things that I consciously know I did; there have probably been several more that I did entirely unconsciously.  All without a calculator.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Glad you summarized that paragraph because I didn't couldn't read the dumb thing.

    FTFY.

    @blakeyrat said:

    From skimming, though, it looks like you're really proud of your "proofreading skills" which are utterly and entirely obsolete, and have been for 20+ years. Congratulations on being a dinosaur, regardless of your age.

    In this day and age, proofreading skills have translated into attention to detail.  I just found out there's a job fair here at work where my boss has recommended an article about me, coming up through the ranks to become a highly-respected network engineer.  I attribute that to attention to detail and putting in the time improving my knowledge of my trade.

    boomzilla already did the QFI thing, so I'll leave that one to stand as it is.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    From skimming, though, it looks like you're really proud of your "proofreading skills" which are utterly and entirely obsolete, and have been for 20+ years. Congratulations on being a dinosaur, regardless of your age.

    Well, the same way that there are no perfect translators there are no perfect spell checkers

    @blakeyrat said:

    I don't understand why you think lack of math abilities would cause death in an earthquake

    Rioting over incorrect change. :)

    @nonpartisan said:

    I will emphasize with every lesson that knowing math is something they will genuinely use on a daily basis in their lives.

    Lying to your kids is parenting 101.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Sane people understand that the one thing humans are best at is adapting to change (although you wouldn't know it reading this forum, Mr. Type Two Spaces!) and therefore understand that if we lived in a world where computers suddenly disappears, hey wow, we'd figure out how to live in that world. It might be hard for awhile, but it's not going to be the "end of the human race".

    Extintion is a very complex phenomenon that can be triggered by a number of reasons, I doubt that the absence of computers would be a deciding factor but you never know for sure.



  • @CarnivorousHippie said:

    I have a fast-food receipt from 2008 taped to my cube wall which I keep as a reminder...  It's for $3.88 (two breakfast burritos), and printed near the bottom is:

    CTND    .12

    Yes, they print the Change To the Next Dollar on the receipt in case the carhops (that might be a clue) need to make change.

    This is why I no longer feel squeamish about using a credit card for a $4 meal.

    I wish my brother-in-law had saved the receipt from one of the first times we went to Hardees after they came out with the Thickburgers...they were still getting used to how to ring up the new stuff and managed to provide him with a receipt indicating he had ordered

    1 Cheeseburger

      No Vanilla

    Which was accurate, as far as that goes, but he was surprised they'd found it necessary to specify that particular option, since he didn't.



  • @nonpartisan said:

    If you won't take those, then you won't accept anything. Because any example I give you're going to point back to it being human-caused.

    Yeah, that was kind of my point. Congratulations on working that out on your own.

    @nonpartisan said:

    Pentium division bug?

    That was noteworthy exactly because it resulted in computers that did (in a rare circumstance) do math wrong. That's why it was news.

    @nonpartisan said:

    In this day and age, proofreading skills have translated into attention to detail.

    Except in your own writing, where you double-space. Which is clearly wrong.



  • @nonpartisan said:

    Not even you can be this dense.  But since I have time to kill while babysitting a vendor . . . I've calculated the amount of time left before the bus comes.  I've converted a CIDR prefix to a netmask.  I calculated the beginning and ending addresses for the new subnet.  I've figured out the number of extra spaces in my response post from last night and figured out the number of characters needed to render those in HTML as non-breaking spaces (258).  I've estimated the total of several items in a purchase so I knew whether I had enough cash or not.  These are all things that I consciously know I did; there have probably been several more that I did entirely unconsciously.  All without a calculator.

    The only things this proves is that you are an bored OCD person without a calculator.  A more valuable way to waste your time is to use a calculator and then use your brainpower in something more useful (hint: watching horseporn is more useful than this.



  • @serguey123 said:

    @nonpartisan said:

    Not even you can be this dense.  But since I have time to kill while babysitting a vendor . . . I've calculated the amount of time left before the bus comes.  I've converted a CIDR prefix to a netmask.  I calculated the beginning and ending addresses for the new subnet.  I've figured out the number of extra spaces in my response post from last night and figured out the number of characters needed to render those in HTML as non-breaking spaces (258).  I've estimated the total of several items in a purchase so I knew whether I had enough cash or not.  These are all things that I consciously know I did; there have probably been several more that I did entirely unconsciously.  All without a calculator.

    The only things this proves is that you are an bored OCD person without a calculator.  A more valuable way to waste your time is to use a calculator and then use your brainpower in something more useful (hint: watching horseporn is more useful than this.

    I'm scheduled to take the CCIE written exam in June.  I'll be expected to know, and perform, subnetting, routing metric calculations, spanning tree cost paths, etc.  After I get my CCIE certification, I may not perform those calculations on a daily basis.  But during the test, I will be expected to perform them without a calculator.  If I don't have a foundation in basic mathematics (let alone the more advanced mathematics that will be required for these) I'll never have a chance to succeed at it.

    As for the examples, you write like I intentionally sat down and focused on all of those.  Calculating the time for the bus was instantaneous while walking to the stop.  Changing the CIDR to a netmask and calculating the subnet addressing took a few seconds while the server admin was bringing up the screen to change the addressing.  I counted the number of spaces because who the hell is going to lose disk space over 43 stored space characters (hell, that's just slack space in 1 sector).  No one's going to miss the latest pr0n movie because of 43 characters, what with 2 TB drives these days.  Estimating the amount of the purchase was a very conscious calculation, yes.  There's nothing OCD about any of it; they were all strictly mathematical calculations that I do in the normal course of a day that I was able to do without the aid of a calculator.  And the only way I was able to do them was because I have a practical knowledge of basic mathematics.

     



  • @kilroo said:

    1 Cheeseburger

      No Vanilla

    Hopefully, this didn't spur the line cook to believe that "with vanilla" was the default setting for the Hardees Thickburger.

    Although, you can get a bacon shake, so why not?



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @nonpartisan said:
    Pentium division bug?

    That was noteworthy exactly because it resulted in computers that did (in a rare circumstance) do math wrong. That's why it was news.

    So it does meet your definition.  By your own admission, the computer did the math wrong due to this bug.  So I did find a WTF that qualifies.  And the irony is that it shouldn't qualify, because . . . computers don't do math wrong!!  Human error caused the problem!!

    @blakeyrat said:

    @nonpartisan said:
    In this day and age, proofreading skills have translated into attention to detail.

    Except in your own writing, where you double-space. Which is clearly wrong.

    By your standards perhaps.  And maybe I'm wrong.  But even if I am, does it really bother you that much?  Why are you going so apeshit over whether I use two spaces or one?

     



  • @CarnivorousHippie said:

    @kilroo said:

    1 Cheeseburger

      No Vanilla

    Hopefully, this didn't spur the line cook to believe that "with vanilla" was the default setting for the Hardees Thickburger.

    Although, you can get a bacon shake, so why not?

    Remember, this is a world where you can sell more jars of your peanut butter by plastering "Cholesterol Free!" across the label in big red letters.

     



  • @nonpartisan said:

    And the irony is that it shouldn't qualify, because . . . computers don't do math wrong!! Human error caused the problem!!

    But it wasn't a math error the human made, it was a logic error.

    @nonpartisan said:

    By your standards perhaps. And maybe I'm wrong.

    There is no doubt you are wrong.

    @nonpartisan said:

    But even if I am, does it really bother you that much?

    Yes, because I have to remove all your pointless &nbsp's from your text when I quote you. It would bother me less if Community Server just removed them when you hit "submit" but, eh. It's CS.

    @nonpartisan said:

    Why are you going so apeshit over whether I use two spaces or one?

    Because you can't brag about your attention to detail while demonstrably not paying attention to detail.



  • @nonpartisan said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    @nonpartisan said:
    Pentium division bug?
    That was noteworthy exactly because it resulted in computers that did (in a rare circumstance) do math wrong. That's why it was news.
    So it does meet your definition.  By your own admission, the computer did the math wrong due to this bug.  So I did find a WTF that qualifies.  And the irony is that it shouldn't qualify, because . . . computers don't do math wrong!!  Human error caused the problem!!

    @blakeyrat said:

    @nonpartisan said:
    In this day and age, proofreading skills have translated into attention to detail.
    Except in your own writing, where you double-space. Which is clearly wrong.
    By your standards perhaps.  And maybe I'm wrong.  But even if I am, does it really bother you that much?  Why are you going so apeshit over whether I use two spaces or one?

    I was taught in high school and college to double space after my periods and double space lines (which imo looks ugly).  I normally dont bother with two spacing after my periods since I did not see a benefit, but I now see a great benefit.  It annoys blakeyrat so I am going to do it whenever I remember.



  • @da Doctah said:

    Remember, this is a world where you can sell more jars of your peanut butter by plastering "Cholesterol Free!" across the label in big red letters.

    Don't forget the marshmallow packaging that says, "A Fat Free Food."



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @nonpartisan said:
    And the irony is that it shouldn't qualify, because . . . computers don't do math wrong!! Human error caused the problem!!

    But it wasn't a math error the human made, it was a logic error.

    But I never said it was a math error on the human's part.  I just said it was a human error.  Pedanticness FTW!!!! @blakeyrat said:

    @nonpartisan said:
    But even if I am, does it really bother you that much?

    Yes, because I have to remove all your pointless &nbsp's from your text when I quote you. It would bother me less if Community Server just removed them when you hit "submit" but, eh. It's CS.

    You must be using the plain editor then. I don't see that in the standard editor. Doesn't bother me. But if it drives you nuts, quote this part of my reply. Consider it a gift.@blakeyrat said:

    @nonpartisan said:
    Why are you going so apeshit over whether I use two spaces or one?

    Because you can't brag about your attention to detail while demonstrably not paying attention to detail.

    I pay attention to detail.  I make sure that every sentence has two spaces after it.  (Except for the previous part of my reply because I'm kind.)

    Tell you what . . . I'll meet you halfway.  I'll put two spaces after periods, exclamation points and question marks, but I'll only put one space after commas and semicolons.  Fair deal.



  • @boomzilla said:

    @da Doctah said:
    Remember, this is a world where you can sell more jars of your peanut butter by plastering "Cholesterol Free!" across the label in big red letters.
    Don't forget the marshmallow packaging that says, "A Fat Free Food."

    Throw "asbestos-free", "mercury-free", "arsenic-free", and "fewer bug parts by volume than the competitor's brand" on the label, and you've got the perfect food.



  • @nonpartisan said:

    during the test, I will be expected to perform them without a calculator.

    Ughh, so we are back at this... as I said before.... "outside of academia this skills are practically dead"

    @nonpartisan said:

    As for the examples, you write like I intentionally sat down and focused on all of those

    Maybe, maybe not, I'm not privy to how dumb or intelligent you are, but you intentionally sat down and focused on typeing all those examples on this fora so a degree of forethought is a given.

    @nonpartisan said:

    I counted the number of spaces because who the hell is going to lose disk space over 43 stored space characters (hell, that's just slack space in 1 sector).

    So you admit to this one

    @nonpartisan said:

    There's nothing OCD about any of it

    I beg to differ

    @nonpartisan said:

    they were all strictly mathematical calculations that I do in the normal course of a day that I was able to do without the aid of a calculator.

    Are you expecting some sort of award? A parade? A short essay titled: "Surviving a day without a calculator, living on the edge"

    @nonpartisan said:

    the only way I was able to do them was because I have a practical knowledge of basic mathematics.

    A great tale for your kids so that they don't skip on their homework



  • @nonpartisan said:

    Tell you what . . . I'll meet you halfway.  I'll put two spaces after periods, exclamation points and question marks, but I'll only put one space after commas and semicolons.  Fair deal.

    Not me,  because I' m going to start using 2 after every comma,  3 after sentences,  and 1 after apostrophes.   It' ll be quite fun,  I think.   ( And you get the pleasure of finding where I missed things!   )



  • @serguey123 said:

    Ughh, so we are back at this... as I said before.... "outside of academia this skills are practically dead"

    I guess we have different definitions of "academia".  When I hear (or read) "academia", I picture a formalized school environment.  I don't regard this to be a formalized school environment.  I will admit that I may need to broaden my definition.

    That said, if I interview a network engineer on a routed access layer and ask him/her/it to come up with a subnet plan using /25 production subnets and /30 uplinks between access/distribution and distribution/core, I would expect him/her/it to be able to do it without whipping out a calculator.  I certainly wouldn't consider a job interview to be "academia," and I would certainly question said skills if they couldn't be done without a calculator.

    @serguey123 said:

    Maybe, maybe not, I'm not privy to how dumb or intelligent you are, but you intentionally sat down and focused on typeing all those examples on this fora so a degree of forethought is a given.

    Only because of the subject matter of this thread.  I don't normally sit back and consider "Hmmm, where have I used math today??"@serguey123 said:

    @nonpartisan said:

    I counted the number of spaces because who the hell is going to lose disk space over 43 stored space characters (hell, that's just slack space in 1 sector).

    So you admit to this one

    Yes, because there was a point -- that 43 spaces is not going to break anyone's hard drive these days.  43 added characters is a rounding error in the total drive's capacity.

    @serguey123 said:

    @nonpartisan said:

    There's nothing OCD about any of it

    I beg to differ

    If you want to differ, that's fine.  No need to beg about it.

    @serguey123 said:

    @nonpartisan said:

    the only way I was able to do them was because I have a practical knowledge of basic mathematics.

    A great tale for your kids so that they don't skip on their homework

    Wow.  There are people in this thread that don't realize how much math they do on a daily basis that would be very difficult/impossible to do without a basic foundation.  Hell, without a basic foundation you wouldn't even know what buttons to push on the calculator to even try to get a result.  I'm not trying to be a braggart; I'm just trying (see blakey, only one space after the semicolon, just like I promised) that people use math more often in their daily lives than they realize.  And if certain people on this thread want to be dense and not understand that, well, it really is fine with me if they want to deny reality.



  • @nonpartisan said:

    I'm just trying (see blakey, only one space after the semicolon, just like I promised) to show that people use math more often in their daily lives than they realize.

    inb4 "haha, you made an error hee hee hee!!!"



  • @nonpartisan said:

    if I interview a network engineer on a routed access layer and ask him/her/it to come up with a subnet plan using /25 production subnets and /30 uplinks between access/distribution and distribution/core, I would expect him/her/it to be able to do it without whipping out a calculator.  I certainly wouldn't consider a job interview to be "academia," and I would certainly question said skills if they couldn't be done without a calculator.

    I'm not an engineer so I have no idea whether this is a good idea but I hope you rely on more than this to hire somebody.

    @nonpartisan said:

    Yes, because there was a point -- that 43 spaces is not going to break anyone's hard drive these days.  43 added characters is a rounding error in the total drive's capacity.

    So only pointless OCD is OCD?

    @nonpartisan said:

    There are people in this thread that don't realize how much math they do on a daily basis that would be very difficult/impossible to do without a basic foundation.  Hell, without a basic foundation you wouldn't even know what buttons to push on the calculator to even try to get a result.  I'm not trying to be a braggart; I'm just trying (see blakey, only one space after the semicolon, just like I promised) that people use math more often in their daily lives than they realize.  And if certain people on this thread want to be dense and not understand that, well, it really is fine with me if they want to deny reality.

    How basic is basic? Elementary school math? Because that is the only everyday use of math you can get.  Also the brain tend to remember the stuff you use so if you remember you use it, if you don't then your brain tends to drop it and focus on horse porn.



  • @serguey123 said:

    @nonpartisan said:
    if I interview a network engineer on a routed access layer and ask him/her/it to come up with a subnet plan using /25 production subnets and /30 uplinks between access/distribution and distribution/core, I would expect him/her/it to be able to do it without whipping out a calculator.  I certainly wouldn't consider a job interview to be "academia," and I would certainly question said skills if they couldn't be done without a calculator.

    I'm not an engineer so I have no idea whether this is a good idea but I hope you rely on more than this to hire somebody.

    serguey123, I think you've outdone yourself with this comment. Truly, well done.



  • @serguey123 said:

    The only things this proves is that you are an bored OCD person without a calculator.  A more valuable way to waste your time is to use a calculator and then use your brainpower in something more useful (hint: watching horseporn is more useful than this.

    @serguey123 said:

    How basic is basic? Elementary school math? Because that is the only everyday use of math you can get.  Also the brain tend to remember the stuff you use so if you remember you use it, if you don't then your brain tends to drop it and focus on horse porn.

    I'm seeing a pattern here.  I hope Zunesis doesn't chime in; he's probably an authority on horse porn.



  • I think serguey123 thinks that referencing horse porn makes him edgy and funny like some of the other posters on this forum arguably are.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    Because the division by intelligence is usually just a division by class and family environment. Also, a lot of intelligence metrics are sadly one-dimensional. The result is that people who are good at taking standardized tests and who have a stable home life do okay whereas extremely bright people who don't do well at tests (or who are improperly motivated) or who have an unstable home life do poorly and get shunted into manual labor.

    I don't see much difference between this happening at age of 14 or 18. At some point you have to choose who goes to university, who goes to college and who starts working. And would be inclined to think that a good teacher can motivate the children to shoot for higher education at 14. But good teacher is most important in either case.

    @morbiuswilters said:

    And it happens in the US, it just isn't as inevitable as it seems to be in Europe. It also seems it was less likely to happen in the past here, but our education system has been failing for decades.

    It's failing in most European countries too.

    @briverymouse said:

    @morbiuswilters said:
    I also think people should learn certain practical skills from school. I see basic woodworking as something most people should know, along with basic mechanics, basic finance and basic housekeeping. As a practical matter, how often do students in the lowest high school (in the US "high school" usually means 9th through 12th grades whereas in Europe it seems to mean anything past 4th or 6th grade) end up in university? These kids are, what, 10 years old when their life is being decided for them? (Ironically, I would have thrived in such a system--at 10 I was exceptional at standardized tests, had perfect grades and scored very high on IQ tests, but by the time I was 16 I stopped giving a shit and had mediocre grades and test scores. As it is, I enrolled in a couple of years of very cheap community college but skipped most of my classes. I dropped out eventually, which I'm very happy about because I wasted very little time or money on college and I seemed to learn more than most of the people who did go to college. I also make more money than most of them.)

    We don't work with tests to decide which school people go to, the parents choose (at age 12). You can still change to a different type of school relatively easily until about age 14 to 16 (you have some catching up to do, of course, but nothing that a motivated teacher can't solve in a few months). At what age do you propose a child is old enough to choose? Americans seem to think this is age 18, but this means everything you learn up to then is general knowledge. You think that is a good thing, but I disagree. I'm happy my high school prepared me for one of the best engineering schools in the world, instead of teaching me woodworking. I don't see why I would ever need that skill in later life.

    Here (Czechia, the country that can't get it's crap together to officially use it's correct English name) it used to be 1st to 8th grade basic school split in two parts, with the first being same for everybody and the second having optional specialization, more to keep the too curious occupied than to provide any real difference. Some practical skills like basic woodworking were included in the 7th and 8th grade (they are only now talking about also including basic finance). Than everybody chose (the students signed up; I don't remember whether it even had parent's signature) how to continue after 8th grade.

    After revolution, sometime around 1993, they added extended basic school with 9th grade (fine, there is more and more to learn) and added the "8-year gymnasium" starting with 6th grade. I didn't think it was reasonable back than and I still don't. Exactly because it leaves the basic schools without the motivated to lead the way, somewhat reduces the choice (switching schools is still possible, but not everybody will) and didn't seem to be needed anyway. However I do think the choice of high schools is reasonable, because at 15 most children know what they are good at and what not, so specialized high school gives them head start in the subjects of their choice, be it for continuing on college or starting work. And most high schools still do teach the generic subjects, so switching between them is still possible as is going to college of different specialization.

    @briverymouse said:

    It's not a division by class. Sure, when you are improperly motivated at home, you don't perform well at school. But teachers do everything they can to motivate children, and I don't see what more the education system can do. You can keep hoping they will someday decide to start studying and go to university, but what are the odds? On the contrary, if teachers before high school see that children are intelligent (not by any standardized test, but by following them for a whole year), they can often convince the parents to send them to a high school that prepares them for university. From there on, they are surrounded by other intelligent, hard-working children and will be motivated by that, instead of only being friends with people from the same class, whose parents are often just as non-motivating.

    I can only agree here. The teachers usually have more authority in lower grades, so delaying the decision too long does not help. If the teachers find the talented and send them to elite school, they will be motivated there by having smart colleagues, while if they continue to to visit the high school in their poor neighbourhood, they will shine there, but won't have the motivation, because they won't have much competition.

    But in the end it depends on having good teachers to recognize the talents and motivate them. Which is more and more of a problem, because the government can't get decent budget for paying them despite always declaring education their highest priority. Which is the real issue and is much more important than which grade children choose which path.



  • @CarnivorousHippie said:

    @boomzilla said:

    @da Doctah said:
    Remember, this is a world where you can sell more jars of your peanut butter by plastering "Cholesterol Free!" across the label in big red letters.
    Don't forget the marshmallow packaging that says, "A Fat Free Food."

    Throw "asbestos-free", "mercury-free", "arsenic-free", and "fewer bug parts by volume than the competitor's brand" on the label, and you've got the perfect food.

    Recently I've read about law (I am not sure whether it was passed or only proposed) to forbid food packages to advertise features implicit in given substance. I am not sure whether it's bigger WTF that people fall for those things or that we have laws to protect people from themselves. Though lying (on packages and such) certainly does have to be prohibited, because otherwise you couldn't trust anything and while this is not outright lying, it's serious misleading.



  • @serguey123 said:

    I'm not an engineer so I have no idea
    whether this is a good idea but I hope you rely on more than this to
    hire somebody.

    Really?  You truly think I would only hire
    someone based on whether they could subnet or not?  On a single skill? 
    Would you hire someone strictly on the basis of whether they could pass
    fizzbuzz or not?  I would never consider the possibility that you would
    hire based only on fizzbuzz or not; I would expect to be given a similar
    courtesy when I discuss tests I might use in the hiring process.  So
    no, working out subnets is not the only skill on which I interview, but
    it is a critical skill that an engineer needs to be able to do quickly
    and accurately, regardless of whether a calculator is available or not.
    @serguey123 said:

    So only pointless OCD is OCD?

    Counting
    spaces for a single purpose is not OCD.  My continuing to reply to why
    it's not OCD is more OCD than counting spaces for one very specific purpose.[quote
    user="serguey123"]How basic is basic? Elementary school math? Because
    that is the only everyday use of math you can get.[/quote]Thank you. 
    That is exactly my point.  Blakey emphasizing "Why should kids be taught
    math?!?!??!?!?!  The fucking computer can do it without error!!!! 
    USELESS USELESS USELESS!!!!!!!!!!!!" was primarily over a simple, basic
    skill:  being able to accurately make change.  Basic addition and
    subtraction; the only complication is a decimal point.  Elementary
    school math.  I believe that if our kids did not learn basic mathematics
    -- addition, subtraction, multiplication and division -- they would
    have major problems functioning in the world on a day-to-day basis.



  • @dhromed said:

     Also,

    http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=math

    As a former teacher of mathematics, I approve of this page.



  • There hasn't been a White Castle in the area where I live for many, many years.  I didn't even know they were still in business until recently I was at the grocery store and noticed that you can buy frozen White Castle hamburgers and cheeseburgers that you cook in the microwave.  There's a pretty good WTF.



  • @El_Heffe said:

    There hasn't been a White Castle in the area where I live for many, many years.  I didn't even know they were still in business until recently I was at the grocery store and noticed that you can buy frozen White Castle hamburgers and cheeseburgers that you cook in the microwave.  There's a pretty good WTF.

    I've only seen a couple, the only one I remember the place was actually in NY,NY.


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