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Ubuntu's Amazing New Invention

  • S

    @blakeyrat said:

    @Cassidy said:
    So.. PCAnywhere letting you take control of a user's computer remotely is.. spyware but not.. remote control software. I think you're conflating terms there.
    No I'm not. PCAnywhere can be used to observe your actions without the end-user being aware of it. That is spyware. That is also remote control software.

    Windows Remote Desktop does not allow that, because it logs the local user out before allowing the remote user in. That's just remote control software.

    Spyware is scummy. Remote control software isn't scummy. Unless it's also spyware, in which case it's scummy.

    So when the tech guys at my work log on to my machine to fix something while i'm logged in, they're using scummy software?  I'll let them know right away.
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  • blakeyrat

    @Sutherlands said:

    So when the tech guys at my work log on to my machine to fix something while i'm logged in, they're using scummy software? I'll let them know right away.

    If they're using spyware to do it then, yes, they are using scummy software.

    Until I started posting here, I would never have imagined in a thousand years that the thought, "spyware is scummy" would be considered controversial. What the hell is wrong with everybody here?

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  • S

    @blakeyrat said:

    @Sutherlands said:
    So when the tech guys at my work log on to my machine to fix something while i'm logged in, they're using scummy software? I'll let them know right away.
    If they're using spyware to do it then, yes, they are using scummy software.

    Until I started posting here, I would never have imagined in a thousand years that the thought, "remote access software is spyware" would be considered controversial. What the hell is wrong with everybody here?

    FTFY
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  • boomzilla
    ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    If they're using spyware to do it then, yes, they are using scummy software.

    I guess the question is whether PCAnywhere is really spyware. I've never used it, so I really don't know, but the whole 3rd party middleman aspect has always seemed problematic to me. So firstly, how easy is it for someone with legitimate credentials to watch what you're doing without you knowing? Is this a legit concern or just concern trolling?

    The next thing to consider is how easy it is for someone without legitimate credentials to access your machine. Like, maybe a PCAnywhere admin? Or a hacker who compromised PCAnywhere? Or who had the source code? It would seem to me that a reasonable system would have some form of authentication that you set on your machine and didn't share with the PCAnywhere servers, so that the source code wouldn't help you gain access, aside from possibly a bug you discovered, which is, of course a risk of connecting to a network, period.

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  • blakeyrat

    For what it's worth, I just read this article which states (along with the usual "why the fuck is anybody still using this!?") that it's been in maintenance mode since 2006.

    @boomzilla said:

    I guess the question is whether PCAnywhere is really spyware.

    It can be used as spyware. Remote Desktop cannot. Whether it is being used as spyware, I can't say for certain. But it's likely.

    @boomzilla said:

    So firstly, how easy is it for someone with legitimate credentials to watch what you're doing without you knowing?

    When I used it back on Windows 2000, the only indicator on the screen was a color change on the system tray icon. As long as the controller didn't actually provide any input.

    The real point is: it's redundant, it doesn't fucking work right (as people on this thread have confirmed), it's insecure, and it's unmaintained. All of those are true even if you don't care about it being spyware. If you're using it, you're an idiot. EVEN SYMANTEC SAYS YOU SHOULDN'T BE USING IT.

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  • bjolling
    :belt_onion:

    @dhromed said:

    @GreyWolf said:

    So I'm confused, is this a serious idea, a joke, or some ignorant marketeer's froth?

     Or just the latest demonstration that Ubuntu has been hijacked by fools? See Unity etc

    Of course not. It's just Ubuntu's answer to Spotlight and Window's Start Search. Nothing more nothing less. Well, maybe a little more ambitious, but that's to be expected.
    Since it's an experiment to  improve usability of menus, I'd rather compare it to the effort that Microsoft made which ended up creating the Ribbon control. Both start from the premise that the current way of working with menus isn't very userfriendly.

    Of course using a commandline to type commands inside an application is nothing new. I have been using AutoCAD since 1997 and in order to draw a line for example, you have at least 3 options:

    • Go to the menu and find the "Line" item
    • Go to a toolbar and find the "Line" icon 
    • Type LINE into the command line interpreter

    I almost always use the commandline especially when starting a new model when I usually enter the coordinates manually and I'm fully on keyboard anyway.

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  • ?

    Yet the ribbon is still controlled by the mouse.
    Do you think there may be a difference between the average computer user and those who need to use CAD software? Nah, that can't be true.

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  • A

    I really don't know if I like this idea or not yet from Ubuntu. I'm reserving judgement until I can at least use it for a bit and see what it's like. It looks more like a transitional idea they're experimenting with, so it'll probably be offered alongside existing menus rather than replace them outright. I can see it being pretty useful in some cases (where the application has quite distinctly spelt menu options) but it looks to have quite a few caveats too; namely most people can't spell correctly (judging from the general content all over the interwebs)

    Not sure why, but my last account seems to have got blocked, CS help link is broken, and there doesn't seem to be any way to get to the bottom of it (requesting a new password sent to my email isn't working either) CS sucks :(

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  • D

    @Cad Delworth said:

    For me, the clue is in the word PROFESSIONAL. And in a PROFESSIONAL OS, most of the time you will want to be starting your navigation in Explorer from DRIVES, not some Fisher-Price-stylee virtual crud like Libraries or Favorites.
    That may be true for you, but I open Explorer and have my Favourites up the top and go to one of the folders that I tend to go to all the time, specifically my Media and Downloads folders (I haven't been arsed to put my Media folders into my libraries, I just treat a library like a slightly quirky nature anyhow), yet I run 7 Professional.

    Admittedly, you can't move the location of the things on the right (no idea why but this would be the ideal solution to everyone's problems, hooray), but Microsoft doesn't just (okay, very rarely) say "let's put this here because we can", they go out and figure out what people want where - obviously people didn't want to jump around the directory tree as much so they put Favourites up the top. And because you can't move the groups in the pane on the right, it would be counter-intutive to have Computer up the top in Pro and where it is now everywhere

    In any case, Professional in the Microsoft context refers to the feature level: Pro merely adds some more businessy features in and exists so that people who want a computer for home use but need to join it to a domain\RDP into it\etc can do all that, just like Office Professional: you don't get the menu bar and whatnot back because professional users need menu bars (or whatever), you get the same thing as whatever came in Home and Business as well as a few of extra things: Publisher and Access.@blakeyrat said:
    Whether it is being used as spyware, I can't say for certain. But it's likely.
    If you have Security Essentials on your computer and you attempt to install AMMYY Admin, VNC or similar software it kicks up a big stink about it because of the cold calls from "Microsoft" than went around. Not sure if any other antimalware things do it but I know MSSE does. And indeed, it certainly isn't a case of the software being Spyware (legitimate stuff isn't), it's a case of how it's used: me using VNC to remotely use a client's computer to scan it for malware because they've called and said "I think I have a virus" is different if I were using it on a client's computer to get their bank details so I could rob them blind.

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  • bjolling
    :belt_onion:

    You seem te be replying to me yet nothing you say has any relation to what I said

    @Salamander said:

    Yet the ribbon is still controlled by the mouse.
    So? How does that dispute my point that Microsoft's Ribbon and Ubuntu's HUD are both an attempt to create a mechanism that is better than the classic menu?

    @Salamander said:

    Do you think there may be a difference between the average computer user and those who need to use CAD software? Nah, that can't be true.
    Two can play this game. Do you think average computer users use Ubuntu? Nah, that can't be true. Or does the fact that average users don't need a CLI in their software disproves my point that Ubuntu's idea is not very original?

     

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  • dhromed

    @bjolling said:

    Do you think average computer users use Ubuntu?
     

    It's what Ubuntu wants, so it is in that light that their decisions must be viewed.

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  • N

    Yo dawg we heard you like user interfaces so we put a text interface in your graphical interface atop your text interface so you can use while you use while you use

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  • C

    @blakeyrat said:

    PCAnywhere can be used to observe your actions without the end-user being aware of it. That is spyware.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Whether it is being used as spyware, I can't say for certain. But it's likely.

    Okay.. so to recap:

    1. PCAnywhere is definitely SPYWARE
    2. PCAnywhere contains functionality similar to the way spyware functions, so could be spyware
    3. PCAnywhere can be used as spyware, but I'm not certain if it is being used as spyware. But it's likely.

    Hmmm... the certainty there drops from absolute fact through possibility down to uncertainty - yet high probability. However, I take issue with:

    @blakeyrat said:

    PCAnywhere can be used to observe your actions without the end-user being aware of it. That is spyware.

    Windows Terminal Services also has a feature where an administrator can ghost a user's session and observe that user's work without them being aware (there's no on-screen indication you're being observed) but I wouldn't class TS as spyware.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Spyware is scummy. Remote control software isn't scummy. Unless it's also spyware, in which case it's scummy.

    Can't fault the logic in that.

    @blakeyrat said:

    The real point is: it's redundant, it doesn't fucking work right (as people on this thread have confirmed), it's insecure, and it's unmaintained. All of those are true even if you don't care about it being spyware. If you're using it, you're an idiot. EVEN SYMANTEC SAYS YOU SHOULDN'T BE USING IT.

    That, too. I didn't visit your link but the BBC also covered the story, as well as The Register, and the comments on El Reg also echo the fact that most users consider PCA as deprecated and shitware. 

     

    ... 

    Meanwhile, back to the thread....

    @Cad Delworth said:

    For me, the clue is in the word PROFESSIONAL. And in a PROFESSIONAL OS, most of the time you will want to be starting your navigation in Explorer from DRIVES, not some Fisher-Price-stylee virtual crud like Libraries or Favorites.

    I'd have thought a PROFESSIONAL OS is one that offers flexibility for a user to customise it to suit their own purposes and workflow, rather than locked to the one particular workflow envisioned by the OS architect. I feel starting file navigation from a drive letter rather than from an arbitrary label (that already points to specific locations in my data store) is more intuitive to my thinking, in the same way that I use bookmarks in my browser rather than fire up Google as my home page then begin a search from this site to find the desired site.[1]

    Perhaps I'm just odd and clicking on "Favourites" then "Comics" isn't as quick (or professional) as clicking the G: drive, drilling down to "public", selecting "documents", locating the folder marked "images", then the subdirectory "Marvel" before opening "comics" and receiving my JPEG goodness. Still, YMMV. 

    [1] yes, this fucks me off when I see users doing it. But it's their workflow, they're familiar with it, and I'm not professional enough to force them to do it another way. 

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  • ?

    @blakeyrat said:

    If you're using it, you're an idiot. EVEN SYMANTEC SAYS YOU SHOULDN'T BE USING IT.
    A few days ago I was on a website that had the best headline for this story:

    " Dear customers, please uninstall all our products. Love, Symantec"

     

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  • C

    @Cassidy said:

    Perhaps I'm just odd and clicking on "Favourites" then "Comics" isn't as quick (or professional) as clicking the G: drive, drilling down to "pr0n", selecting "man-on-man", locating the folder marked "images", then the subdirectory "fetish" before opening "shit" and receiving my JPEG goodness. Still, YMMV.
    FTFY

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  • C

    Hey! The whole point of "Favourites" and "Libraries" is that I can relabel "hot male scat action" as "comics".

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  • dhromed

    @Cassidy said:

    relabel "hot male scat action" as "comics".
     

     So that other thread was just a ruse?

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  • C

    Depends. Did it work?

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  • dhromed

     Depends. You gonna fork some over?

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  • C

    Check http://127.0.0.1/ - that's where I found mine.  LOADS there!

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  • dhromed

     So I guess no, your ruse did not work.

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  • A

    @lolwtf said:

    much closer to actually typing what you want to do in plain English

    Am I the only one picturing the final user firing Photoshop (ok, GIMP in this case) and typing "MAKE THE GUY WEARING RED LOOK THE OTHER WAY. ALSO, PAINT THE HOUSE IN BEIGE"? (in all caps, of course).

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  • H

    @atipico said:

    Am I the only one picturing the final user firing Photoshop (ok, GIMP in this case) and typing "MAKE THE GUY WEARING RED LOOK THE OTHER WAY. ALSO, PAINT THE HOUSE IN BEIGE"? (in all caps, of course).
     

    But that's how it works on CSI…

    At a previous job we used CA ControlIT remote control software (ugh, the memories). It had an option that let you silently observe and control a computer, provided you were an administrator of that computer. I agree that something that allows me to silently observe your computer is spyware but I want to add that if I am an administrator then it ain't your computer any more, it's mine.

    As for the terminal services remote control, as far as I know both Microsoft's and Citrix's products allow silent observation but consensual control. Again, only if you are an administrator of the terminal server.

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  • Jaime

    @bannedfromcoding said:

    See, Remote Desktop has one GREAT downside.

    It doesn't let you share the session.

    pcAnywhere, TeamViewer, DamewareMRC, heck, even VNC, "attach" to the user's session. You see whatever he has/had open, he (may) still see his screen too.

    RDP either opens a completely new session (on terminal servers), or "reconnects" the current one to you - but to do the latter you need to actually log in as the target user with his password, and then the console session, i.e. user's screen, will show a variation of "computer locked" screen. And if he logs back in, he takes the session away from you again.

    Now, XP had this "remote assistance" thing no one ever used because it required MSN Messenger. I have no idea, maybe this one shares the screen.

    The one remaining problem with RDP is that it's damn hard to make it work via proxies and internet without VPNing in and opening a bunch of ports that're multiplexed between most of the system services. And most companies tend to keep those blocked on workstations.





    EDIT: Damn, that's the downside to opening all the unread topics in tabs and spending a hour to read through all of them... I didn't see the post above.
    Remote Assistance does allow you to share a session and is very much like PCAnywhere or VNC, except it always requires the local user to authorize the connection. Remote Assistance has done NAT traversal since Vista and it never required MSN, from the very beginning you could save the Remote Assistance Request as a file and email to anyone you wanted.

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  • Jaime

    @Mason Wheeler said:

    @blakeyrat said:

    I upgraded to Vista when it came out, and to 7 when it came out. I'm not trying to slight Vista, it was a good OS, but the truth is I simply don't remember what features it added, because its been so long since I've used it. So I say 7.
     

    The main thing that I noticed is the compositing window manager, where every window essentially has its own frame buffer, instead of all of them drawing directly onto one shared by the entire desktop.  It makes a very noticeable difference if you're doing any sort of game programming, since dragging one window in front of another no longer invalidates the back window.  I wish they'd had that back in W95, but realistically I don't think it would have been possible with then-current hardware.

    This was never a hardware problem -- it was a patent problem. As soon as the patent ran out, Microsoft implemented their window manager in the obvious and sane way.

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  • Mason_Wheeler

    Really?  I hadn't heard that before. Who held the patent?

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  • Jaime

    @Mason Wheeler said:

    Really?  I hadn't heard that before. Who held the patent?
    Apple.  They also threatened to sue Sun in 2003 when they demonstrated a compositing window manager; Sun never released it.

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