Best Pull Request Ever
-
@RHuckster said:
"deletions" is an arbitrary label.
No it's not.
@RHuckster said:
Seriously? You're worried that I don't know the basics of text editors, yet you can't tell the difference between a text editor like Notepad or Eclipse and SCM software like Subversion or CVS?
No. You got me wrong.
You are trying to say the word "deletions" when applied to a SCM is different than the word "deletions" when applied to a text editor. I don't see why they would be... well, the only slight difference I can see is that a SCM can have a deletion that consists of something other than text, like a file. But that's a trivial difference.
Great job ranting for 4 paragraphs, but none of your rant was relevant to the actual question I asked. Which, BTW, you still haven't answered.
-
@blakeyrat said:
It's ok to realize that something, even if you don't know what would be better. Because if you know it sucks, you can do the research to find what would be better. The real danger is when people start to think the tools we have are good enough, because then nobody's working to improve them-- and that's where I think that particular segment of the IT industry is right now.
I don't disagree with you, but you haven't come anywhere close to making the case that current tools suck. OK, sure, some of them do, but that's not the same as saying that there are no good tools. Perhaps I'm also skeptical on this subject due to your professed lack of experience with VCSes. It's kind of like when someone rants about .NET not doing something, and then someone else points out an existing part of the framework that he didn't even know existed.
I don't think there's any piece of software that couldn't be improved. However, I don't think that it's a simple and mechanistic process of testing to find those improvements. Sure, you can find tweaks, or at least usability bottlenecks, but that's far from a guarantee of finding the next killer feature (which is probably how you take VC funds and dominate an industry).
-
@boomzilla said:
I don't disagree with you, but you haven't come anywhere close to making the case that current tools suck.
They haven't fundamentally changed in 10 years. No change = no improvement. That pretty much meets my definition of "sucks." There are source control systems integrated into IDEs-- Community Server springs instantly to mind. And while it's probably better than an SCM with zero integration with the IDE, it still hasn't been improved in 10 years, and it still sucks. I don't have to be an expert on SCM systems to know "suck" when I see it. (On the contrary-- I think someone with less experience is better at finding flaws, since they haven't had their thought processes twisted from using the current system over the last 20 years. Remember: people don't like things that are good, they like things they've seen a lot.)
And frankly, considering the leading IDEs are Visual Studio, XCode, and a bunch of Java shit... I highly doubt that any of them are doing a better integration than Visual Studio. Maybe I'm wrong.
@boomzilla said:
I don't think there's any piece of software that couldn't be improved. However, I don't think that it's a simple and mechanistic process of testing to find those improvements.
Nobody said it was simple, easy, cheap, or even profitable for that matter.
@boomzilla said:
Sure, you can find tweaks, or at least usability bottlenecks, but that's far from a guarantee of finding the next killer feature (which is probably how you take VC funds and dominate an industry).
I think you have a better chance of success if you simply do the same thing as the other guy, only better. The biggest obstacle in this field is that IDEs are usually tied very closely with the makers of the OS and maintainers of the programming language they're intended to be used for, so selling people on ditching Visual Studio to use Program X would be pretty tough. But that's a marketing problem, not a technology one-- technologically, Microsoft already provides all the tools to make an alternate to VS.
-
@blakeyrat said:
No it's not.
Yes it is. A deleted line is a deletion. A deleted file is a deletion. A deleted character is a deletion.
Source control does all three of these things, very often in an overlap such that a deleted line deletes characters at the same time. Therefore, an SCM reporting how many deletions were in the last revision is an arbitrary statistic. Q.E.D.
@blakeyrat said:
I don't see why they would be... well, the only slight difference I can see is that a SCM can have a deletion that consists of something other than text, like a file. But that's a trivial difference.
Well, as I've said before, Git, SVN, and CVS don't have any knowledge of the circumstances of how the file changed. It doesn't look at undo history, or keystrokes, or anything like that. In pure terms, what a deletion truly refers to depends on its context. A deletion in the context of undo history is based on a rationale that a series of backspace or delete strokes constitutes a "single deletion". A deletion in the context of a backspace stroke refers to the deletion of the character preceding the cursor or whatever text is highlighted. A deletion in the context of talking to your fellow developers during a code review of some refactoring you did usually refers to deleting functions, classes, or interfaces.
What a deletion refers to depends on the context. Ergo it's arbitrary. SCMs have no context of undo history or keystrokes, so you can't assume that's what it means by deletion.
-
@RHuckster said:
Yes it is. A deleted line is a deletion. A deleted file is a deletion. A deleted character is a deletion.
A deleted line could be a deletion. Or it could be a subset of a deletion.
@RHuckster said:
What a deletion refers to depends on the context. Ergo it's arbitrary.
That's not what the word "arbitrary" means.
@RHuckster said:
SCMs have no context of undo history or keystrokes, so you can't assume that's what it means by deletion.
I can indeed assume that when it says "deletion" it means "deletion". What's really shocking me here is that otherwise-intelligent people don't know what "deletion" means! That I would never have predicted in a million years.
-
@blakeyrat said:
I can indeed assume that when it says "deletion" it means "deletion". What's really shocking me here is that otherwise-intelligent people don't know what "deletion" means! That I would never have predicted in a million years.
I sure do know what a deletion is. In the context of a revision in SCM, it's the removal of files, directories, or characters within a file. Period. In the context of an undo history, it's something else. Period.
If you're trying to apply or assume a different definition of deletion in either of those contexts, you are wrong. Period.
-
@RHuckster said:
@blakeyrat said:
I can indeed assume that when it says "deletion" it means "deletion". What's really shocking me here is that otherwise-intelligent people don't know what "deletion" means! That I would never have predicted in a million years.
I sure do know what a deletion is. In the context of a revision in SCM, it's the removal of files, directories, or characters within a file. Period. In the context of an undo history, it's something else. Period.
If you're trying to apply or assume a different definition of deletion in either of those contexts, you are wrong. Period.
Oh, well, since you've said "period" I know the debate is over. Well-fought, sir!
-
@blakeyrat said:
@boomzilla said:
I don't disagree with you, but you haven't come anywhere close to making the case that current tools suck. That pretty much meets my definition of "sucks."
They haven't fundamentally changed in 10 years. No change = no improvement.OK, now you've stopped making sense. There's a huge difference between "fundamental change" and "improvement." But at least we know now that we can ignore your definition of sucks.
@blakeyrat said:
There are source control systems integrated into IDEs-- Community Server springs instantly to mind. And while it's probably better than an SCM with zero integration with the IDE, it still hasn't been improved in 10 years, and it still sucks. I don't have to be an expert on SCM systems to know "suck" when I see it. (On the contrary-- I think someone with less experience is better at finding flaws, since they haven't had their thought processes twisted from using the current system over the last 20 years. Remember: people don't like things that are good, they like things they've seen a lot.)
Yes, I agree that a fresh perspective is often the best way to get beyond what you've already got.
@blakeyrat said:
And frankly, considering the leading IDEs are Visual Studio, XCode, and a bunch of Java shit... I highly doubt that any of them are doing a better integration than Visual Studio. Maybe I'm wrong.
Yes, I think you are wrong. I haven't used VS in several years, and even that wasn't much (I had to do some C++ on Windows), but the SCM integration with Eclipse (which I use daily) is actually pretty good, and I don't think that's unusual. Again, I'm not saying that anyone has fully solved this, or that there aren't improvements that could be made, but you're definitely arguing from ignorance here.
@blakeyrat said:
@boomzilla said:
Sure, you can find tweaks, or at least usability bottlenecks, but that's far from a guarantee of finding the next killer feature (which is probably how you take VC funds and dominate an industry).
I think you have a better chance of success if you simply do the same thing as the other guy, only better. The biggest obstacle in this field is that IDEs are usually tied very closely with the makers of the OS and maintainers of the programming language they're intended to be used for, so selling people on ditching Visual Studio to use Program X would be pretty tough. But that's a marketing problem, not a technology one-- technologically, Microsoft already provides all the tools to make an alternate to VS.
And indeed there are alternative IDEs. Obviously MS dominates the .Net world (though there are alternatives, like SharpDevelop, which was pretty good last time I looked at it), but once you get away from that, there's actually competition. Of course, they do tend to be focused on a particular language, but that actually makes sense, given how different languages can be. Given how difficult it is to get one thing right, it's a lot harder to get many things right, especially when you're in a least common denominator situation like supporting disparate languages or platforms.
My impression is that SCM integration isn't a huge point of competition, however. Now, you may commence mocking me, as I often prefer the CLI client over any GUI interface.* But for IDEs, support for refactoring, integrated debugger, etc, seem like bigger selling points. I'm sure others will disagree, of course.
* The CLI is almost always more responsive, and I don't have to mess with opening or closing nodes in a directory tree**, or scroll bars, or control+left mouse button, or navigating a menu. Yes, this obviously has a steeper learning curve, but it's totally worth it to me. Honestly not trying to revive this flame war.
** Another thing I hate about most IDEs is how they have the full directory tree of your project on the left, but then use tabs up above the editor to show which files it actually has open. I vastly prefer a vertical list of open files (for one thing, many more files can be displayed on screen at one time), preferably with a directory tree structure.
-
If you don't want my opinion, then don't ask for my opinion.
Edit: besides, if you don't think Eclipse is a giant pile of dog turds, we'll really never see eye-to-eye anyway. SCM integration? Those morons can't even get a settings dialog correct.
-
@blakeyrat said:
If you don't want my opinion, then don't ask for my opinion.
I never said I didn't want your opinion. I agreed with some of it and disagreed with other parts.
@blakeyrat said:
Edit: besides, if you don't think Eclipse is a giant pile of dog turds, we'll really never see eye-to-eye anyway. SCM integration? Those morons can't even get a settings dialog correct.
I don't think that Eclipse is the be-all, end-all, but I don't have a problem with the settings dialog (maybe I just don't fetishize having every single widget in every single application look identical as much as you do). But generally, it works pretty well, and it was just an example of an IDE that I'm familiar with where the SCM integration is pretty good.
In any case, I believe that the SCM integration isn't done by the main Eclipse project, but by outside developers who write extensions. Often, this seems to be done by the folks developing the SCM itself.
-
so @boomzilla and @blakeyrat were trolling themselves since the beginning of time
@ben_lubar why nodebb reports that @blakeyrat account is only 2 year old, and this thread is 5 year old?
-
@fbmac said in Best Pull Request Ever:
why nodebb reports that @blakeyrat account is only 2 year old, and this thread is 5 year old?
Side effect of the discogenesis?
-
@fbmac said in Best Pull Request Ever:
@ben_lubar why nodebb reports that @blakeyrat account is only 2 year old, and this thread is 5 year old?
@LB_ said in Best Pull Request Ever:
Side effect of the discogenesis?
Migration from the CS server obvs.
-
@Tsaukpaetra said in Best Pull Request Ever:
@fbmac said in Best Pull Request Ever:
@ben_lubar why nodebb reports that @blakeyrat account is only 2 year old, and this thread is 5 year old?
@LB_ said in Best Pull Request Ever:
Side effect of the discogenesis?
Migration from the CS server obvs.
The accounts were created before the initial CS to Discourse import.
-
@ben_lubar said in Best Pull Request Ever:
The accounts were created before the initial CS to Discourse import.
.... How does that invalidate my postulation?
-
@LB_ said in Best Pull Request Ever:
Side effect of the discogenesis?
I suppose it would be (partially) fixable by finding when the earliest ever post by an account was, and if it preceded the “creation timestamp” of the account, pushing the creation timestamp back a bit before that. OTOH…
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/starpolar/images/6/6b/Notime.jpg
-
@blakeyrat said in Best Pull Request Ever:
I suppose you people would gripe at me if I said I have absolutely no clue what this thread is about. What's a "pull request?"
A snapshot of a more innocent time, when Blakey was a wide-eyed youngster with hopes and dreams of a bright future.
-
@cartman82 said in Best Pull Request Ever:
@blakeyrat said in Best Pull Request Ever:
I suppose you people would gripe at me if I said I have absolutely no clue what this thread is about. What's a "pull request?"
A snapshot of a more innocent time, when Blakey was a wide-eyed youngster with hopes and dreams of a bright future.
Not much has changed; it wasn't until I saw @dhromed that I realized this wasn't something that was current.
-
-
@bb36e That's pretty cool! Though really, 1/1?
-
@bb36e said in Best Pull Request Ever:
n someone make a bot that posts this image in response to necros?
can, won't.
you're welcome to make a sockbot plugin that does it though. i'll even help you get started!
-
@accalia was I the only one to be very disappointed with the necromancer in diablo 2, when you reach a boss battle? the boss just killed all my skeletons, and the necromancer was too weak on it's own.
-
@fbmac You could join us in Path of Exile! There are spells that summon corpses, and people usually autosummon skeletons from a totem.
-
What's a "pull request?"
It's a push, but it's named backwards for some reason
-
This post is deleted!
-
@anonymous234 said in Best Pull Request Ever:
What's a "pull request?"
It's a push, but it's named backwards for some reason
I'd like you to pull my finger.
-
@ben_lubar said in Best Pull Request Ever:
I'd like you to pull my finger.
