Pre-employment drug screening.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    New gig through a new contracting firm. I'm supposed to start... Uh, tomorrow (Wednesday). I got the offer late in the day on Friday, did the paperwork on Monday.There, I find out that I have to take a drug test (why did you morons not mention this earlier? We could have gotten it out of the way weeks ago!)

    Was directed to a lab clinic to go piss in the cup. I went there immediately. "Oh, we're sorry, we can only do that kind of test from 10AM-2PM on weekdays, except from 12-1 because we're closed for lunch." ... Yeah. A three hour window out of the whole day (and they're open 8-5).

     So I went back this morning at 10AM. "We're sorry, the computer system we use for that is down. Come back later."

    So I went back at 11:30AM. "Yep, everything's good, lets take a look at your paperwork... Well, it looks right, but it's missing the registration number, which is the only way we can search for your test in the system." "Why not try searching by all these other numbers in all these other search fields?" "Those don't work." "Humor me." So she tries. Lo and behold, they don't return any results. It is now noon. I leave and immediately call my handler... Who is out to lunch.

     

    It's now 12:30 and I'm still waiting for a call back. If this adversely affects my ability to work this job (or, more likely, affects my ability to work for this contracting firm at all), I'm going to eat somebody's heart.



  • @Weng said:

    It's now 12:30 and I'm still waiting for a call back. If this adversely affects my ability to work this job (or, more likely, affects my ability to work for this contracting firm at all), I'm going to eat somebody's heart.

    It sounds to me as if you're in a country where the custom is to sue in these circumstances...


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

     Lawsuits require money. My previous employers haven't been a big fan of giving me very much of it, so I don't have any to play with.



  • @Weng said:

    New gig through a new contracting firm. I'm supposed to start... Uh, tomorrow (Wednesday). I got the offer late in the day on Friday, did the paperwork on Monday.There, I find out that I have to take a drug test (why did you morons not mention this earlier? We could have gotten it out of the way weeks ago!)

     [ . . . ]

    It's now 12:30 and I'm still waiting for a call back. If this adversely affects my ability to work this job (or, more likely, affects my ability to work for this contracting firm at all), I'm going to eat somebody's heart.

    Careful.  They may not have told you yet that you also have to take a pre-employment have-you-been-eating-people's-hearts screening.

     


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    1:22PM. Off to another [i]state[/i] to get to a lab services company that is theoretically made of less fail.



  • @DaveK said:

    Careful.  They may not have told you yet that you also have to take a pre-employment have-you-been-eating-people's-hearts screening.

    LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE!!! 

    <FONT size=3><FONT face=Consolas>This is why I come here.  It helps me to always think of the possibilities. Be they real, imagined or un-imaginable.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT>


  • Why would you want to work for a company that has mandatory drug screenings?

    @Weng said:

    1:22PM. Off to another state to get to a lab services company that is theoretically made of less fail.

    Are we talking postage-stamp-sized East Coast States, or real States?



  • @DaveK said:

    @Weng said:

    New gig through a new contracting firm. I'm supposed to start... Uh, tomorrow (Wednesday). I got the offer late in the day on Friday, did the paperwork on Monday.There, I find out that I have to take a drug test (why did you morons not mention this earlier? We could have gotten it out of the way weeks ago!)

     [ . . . ]

    It's now 12:30 and I'm still waiting for a call back. If this adversely affects my ability to work this job (or, more likely, affects my ability to work for this contracting firm at all), I'm going to eat somebody's heart.

    Careful.  They may not have told you yet that you also have to take a pre-employment have-you-been-eating-people's-hearts screening.

     

    Last I heard it was illegal to discriminate against cannibals.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Are we talking postage-stamp-sized East Coast States, or real States?

    One day I'm going to live in a real State. That day isn't today, but I will be living in a real State. I will be happy on that day.

    Until then, I wave to my Amish neighbors as I drive by them on the roads, which, as an aside, were completely underwater two weeks ago. It was awesomely horrible. Fortunately that's mostly all cleaned up, now. Except for the sinkholes. They'll never go away.

    Blakey, are the real States built on top of limestone caverns? I hope not.



  • @The_Assimilator said:

    @DaveK said:

    @Weng said:

    New gig through a new contracting firm. I'm supposed to start... Uh, tomorrow (Wednesday). I got the offer late in the day on Friday, did the paperwork on Monday.There, I find out that I have to take a drug test (why did you morons not mention this earlier? We could have gotten it out of the way weeks ago!)

     [ . . . ]

    It's now 12:30 and I'm still waiting for a call back. If this adversely affects my ability to work this job (or, more likely, affects my ability to work for this contracting firm at all), I'm going to eat somebody's heart.

    Careful.  They may not have told you yet that you also have to take a pre-employment have-you-been-eating-people's-hearts screening.

    Last I heard it was illegal to discriminate against cannibals.

    Last I heard it was bad for morale to eat your coworkers.



  • @C-Octothorpe said:

    Last I heard it was bad for morale to eat your coworkers.

    I was about to comment, but your tag beat me to it... @C-Octothorpe said:

    Unless they're hawt



  • @C-Octothorpe said:

    Last I heard it was bad for morale to eat your coworkers.

    The heart-eatings will continue until morale improves?



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Why would you want to work for a company that has mandatory drug screenings?

     Nearly every company at least around here does. Even as a consultant, drug testing is typically mandatory if you are going to be on-site. Full background checks are also a defacto standard for most positions.



  • @TheCPUWizard said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    Why would you want to work for a company that has mandatory drug screenings?

     Nearly every company at least around here does. Even as a consultant, drug testing is typically mandatory if you are going to be on-site. Full background checks are also a defacto standard for most positions.

    I've never had the drug screening, but I know for a fact that background checks as well as credit reports are mandatory here for any role in a bank or government.  I've heard from colleagues that for secret or top-secret clearance, which often requires several months, they call your friends, your neighbors, old school teachers, etc.



  • @Xyro said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    Are we talking postage-stamp-sized East Coast States, or real States?
    One day I'm going to live in a real State. That day isn't today, but I will be living in a real State. I will be happy on that day.

    Until then, I wave to my Amish neighbors as I drive by them on the roads, which, as an aside, were completely underwater two weeks ago. It was awesomely horrible. Fortunately that's mostly all cleaned up, now. Except for the sinkholes. They'll never go away.

    Blakey, are the real States built on top of limestone caverns? I hope not.

    I believe the real states are built upon the dead bodies of the Native Americans that were killed after they were relocated out of the fake states.  That's why nobody wants to live there.



  • @C-Octothorpe said:

    @TheCPUWizard said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    Why would you want to work for a company that has mandatory drug screenings?

     Nearly every company at least around here does. Even as a consultant, drug testing is typically mandatory if you are going to be on-site. Full background checks are also a defacto standard for most positions.

    I've never had the drug screening, but I know for a fact that background checks as well as credit reports are mandatory here for any role in a bank or government.  I've heard from colleagues that for secret or top-secret clearance, which often requires several months, they call your friends, your neighbors, old school teachers, etc.

    They also take you biometrics and send them to law inforcement, give you periodical poly tests and do periodical follow ups on background checks whenever something relevant happens or your clearance expires, which is bothersome.  They also do pre screening interviews where they ask a lot of very private questions, etc.



  • @serguey123 said:

    @C-Octothorpe said:

    @TheCPUWizard said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    Why would you want to work for a company that has mandatory drug screenings?

     Nearly every company at least around here does. Even as a consultant, drug testing is typically mandatory if you are going to be on-site. Full background checks are also a defacto standard for most positions.

    I've never had the drug screening, but I know for a fact that background checks as well as credit reports are mandatory here for any role in a bank or government.  I've heard from colleagues that for secret or top-secret clearance, which often requires several months, they call your friends, your neighbors, old school teachers, etc.

    They also take you biometrics and send them to law inforcement, give you periodical poly tests and do periodical follow ups on background checks whenever something relevant happens or your clearance expires, which is bothersome.  They also do pre screening interviews where they ask a lot of very private questions, etc.

    So did you torture squirrels when you were young?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    Why would you want to work for a company that has mandatory drug screenings?
    Because they're paying me 1.75x my "correct" rate PLUS overtime and the actual work sounds... Interesting, if extremely nontraditional and vaguely WTF-y (in that it exists at all - the business requirement to make this team have to exist at all should never have arisen in a sane and just universe).

     

    As it turned out, going to a clinic owned and operated by an actual healthcare company (as in "they own fucking hospitals") instead of an outsourcing lab was the solution. No wait, proper procedures, they knew how to use the fucking computer to find the records, and they even made sure I didn't have a CDL and that I didn't want a DOT test done at the same time. I'll bet some dollars that it actually cost less than the private lab, too. Professionalism? In American Healthcare? This is unpossible!



  • @C-Octothorpe said:

    did you torture squirrels when you were young?

    I have never seen one



  • @TheCPUWizard said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    Why would you want to work for a company that has mandatory drug screenings?
    Nearly every company at least around here does. Even as a consultant, drug testing is typically mandatory if you are going to be on-site.
    Drug testing seemed to really take off in the mid 90's.  There seems to be this weird paranoia of "OMG!! SOMEBODY WILL COME TO WORK HIGH ON DRUGS AND GET HURT AND WE'LL GET SUED FOR A GAZILLION DOLLARS".

     


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @El_Heffe said:

    @TheCPUWizard said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    Why would you want to work for a company that has mandatory drug screenings?
    Nearly every company at least around here does. Even as a consultant, drug testing is typically mandatory if you are going to be on-site.
    Drug testing seemed to really take off in the mid 90's.  There seems to be this weird paranoia of "OMG!! SOMEBODY WILL COME TO WORK HIGH ON DRUGS AND GET HURT AND WE'LL GET SUED FOR A GAZILLION DOLLARS".
    I've never even heard of a drug that could get me hurt in an IT cubicle farm.I guess if I wandered over to the loading docks... But my badge will supposedly not allow that.



  • @serguey123 said:

    @C-Octothorpe said:

    @TheCPUWizard said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    Why would you want to work for a company that has mandatory drug screenings?

     Nearly every company at least around here does. Even as a consultant, drug testing is typically mandatory if you are going to be on-site. Full background checks are also a defacto standard for most positions.

    I've never had the drug screening, but I know for a fact that background checks as well as credit reports are mandatory here for any role in a bank or government.  I've heard from colleagues that for secret or top-secret clearance, which often requires several months, they call your friends, your neighbors, old school teachers, etc.

    They also take you biometrics and send them to law inforcement, give you periodical poly tests and do periodical follow ups on background checks whenever something relevant happens or your clearance expires, which is bothersome.  They also do pre screening interviews where they ask a lot of very private questions, etc.

    Complete and utter bullshit. Unless you're going for SCI, of course.


  • @Weng said:

    @El_Heffe said:
    Drug testing seemed to really take off in the mid 90's.  There seems to be this weird paranoia of "OMG!! SOMEBODY WILL COME TO WORK HIGH ON DRUGS AND GET HURT AND WE'LL GET SUED FOR A GAZILLION DOLLARS".

    I've never even heard of a drug that could get me hurt in an IT cubicle farm.I guess if I wandered over to the loading docks... But my badge will supposedly not allow that.

    Yes, for jobs operating heavy machinery, there's probably an issue of safety, but I've always assumed it was more of an issue that companies didn't want to be hiring people who made poor decisions like taking illegal drugs. In addition to the issues of simple poor judgment, it also can leave you open to blackmail.

    Anyone with that sort of vulnerability who is hired into a position of trust makes the company's money, information or even its entire existence vulnerable. It could be simple theft or embezzlement or the violation of, say, an NDA or something. A government contractor could lose their ability to work for the government, for instance.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Power Troll said:

    Complete and utter bullshit. Unless you're going for SCI, of course.
    Secret involves asking you "Are you a terrorist? Where have you worked in the past?". Top Secret involves asking other people "Is he a terrorist?" and past employers "Did he work for you?". SCI involves a complete investigation into every aspect of your life no matter how intrusive it is to you, your neighbors, people you've barely met, etc. They want to know what you had for breakfast on the 4th of July when you were seven.



  • @Power Troll said:

    Complete and utter bullshit. Unless you're going for SCI, of course.

    I'm not discussing my job nor my actual clearance

    @Weng said:

     Secret involves asking you "Are you a terrorist? Where have you worked in the past?". Top Secret involves asking other people "Is he a terrorist?" and past employers "Did he work for you?". SCI involves a complete investigation into every aspect of your life no matter how intrusive it is to you, your neighbors, people you've barely met, etc. They want to know what you had for breakfast on the 4th of July when you were seven.

    And it also takes a long time to complete, the advantage is that you get preference for job openings when cleared because of it.



  • @boomzilla said:

    @Weng said:
    @El_Heffe said:
    Drug testing seemed to really take off in the mid 90's.  There seems to be this weird paranoia of "OMG!! SOMEBODY WILL COME TO WORK HIGH ON DRUGS AND GET HURT AND WE'LL GET SUED FOR A GAZILLION DOLLARS".

    I've never even heard of a drug that could get me hurt in an IT cubicle farm.I guess if I wandered over to the loading docks... But my badge will supposedly not allow that.

    Yes, for jobs operating heavy machinery, there's probably an issue of safety, but I've always assumed it was more of an issue that companies didn't want to be hiring people who made poor decisions like taking illegal drugs. In addition to the issues of simple poor judgment, it also can leave you open to blackmail.

    Anyone with that sort of vulnerability who is hired into a position of trust makes the company's money, information or even its entire existence vulnerable. It could be simple theft or embezzlement or the violation of, say, an NDA or something. A government contractor could lose their ability to work for the government, for instance.

    It is not so much about safety (though that plays a role. Health Insurance is a big part (for employees) as a drug test is also required there (the insurance companies will accept the employeers copy). Also (as pointed out) there are other liability issues.



  •  Here's why:

     https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Drug-Free_Workplace_Act_of_1988

     Federal grantees and contractors don't want to lose out on government money.



  • @Power Troll said:

    Complete and utter bullshit. Unless you're going for SCI, of course.
    Power troll is power trolling, I see.



  • @serguey123 said:

    @C-Octothorpe said:

    did you torture squirrels when you were young?

    I have never seen one

    That's funny because I remember seeing quite a few in South Korea.



  • @Weng said:

    I've never even heard of a drug that could get me hurt in an IT cubicle farm.I guess if I wandered over to the loading docks...
    I used to work at a chemical plant.  They had a problem with a lot of people getting hurt, so management instituted a policy that anyone hurt at work must take a drug test.  Obviously, if you get hurt it must be because you are on drugs and your judgement is impaired.  5 years later they still had a lot of people getting hurt but not one person ever tested positive.



  • @serguey123 said:

    @C-Octothorpe said:

    @TheCPUWizard said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    Why would you want to work for a company that has mandatory drug screenings?

     Nearly every company at least around here does. Even as a consultant, drug testing is typically mandatory if you are going to be on-site. Full background checks are also a defacto standard for most positions.

    I've never had the drug screening, but I know for a fact that background checks as well as credit reports are mandatory here for any role in a bank or government.  I've heard from colleagues that for secret or top-secret clearance, which often requires several months, they call your friends, your neighbors, old school teachers, etc.

    They also take you biometrics and send them to law inforcement, give you periodical poly tests and do periodical follow ups on background checks whenever something relevant happens or your clearance expires, which is bothersome.  They also do pre screening interviews where they ask a lot of very private questions, etc.

    More fuel to my thesis that the US is one great big jail.



  • @Matt Westwood said:

    More fuel to my thesis that the US is one great big jail.

    You're missing the "nationalist trolling" tag.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    You're missing the "nationalist trolling" tag.

    He protests tagging because it allows Big Brother to profile his behaviour



  • @serguey123 said:

    @Power Troll said:

    Complete and utter bullshit. Unless you're going for SCI, of course.

    I'm not discussing my job nor my actual clearance

    @Weng said:

     Secret involves asking you "Are you a terrorist? Where have you worked in the past?". Top Secret involves asking other people "Is he a terrorist?" and past employers "Did he work for you?". SCI involves a complete investigation into every aspect of your life no matter how intrusive it is to you, your neighbors, people you've barely met, etc. They want to know what you had for breakfast on the 4th of July when you were seven.

    And it also takes a long time to complete, the advantage is that you get preference for job openings when cleared because of it.

    Haha, holy shit. Wow. I almost got trolled hard, but I came to my senses.

    New internet tough guy facade: Drop 100% grade-A bull mash about clearances on forums so that people think you might have one, then retreat and say "I'm not discussing that with anyone." A++, 10/10, would recommend to anyone

    Anyway, Weng pretty much nailed it.



  • @Power Tool said:

    Haha, holy shit. Wow. I almost got trolled hard, but I came to my senses.

    New internet tough guy facade: Drop 100% grade-A bull mash about clearances on forums so that people think you might have one, then retreat and say "I'm not discussing that with anyone." A++, 10/10, would recommend to anyone

    Anyway, Weng pretty much nailed it.
    Given that serguey didn't specify which clearance he was referring to, which of Weng's statement do you think agrees with what you said, and not what the other 2 said?



  • @boomzilla said:

    @Weng said:
    @El_Heffe said:
    Drug testing seemed to really take off in the mid 90's.  There seems to be this weird paranoia of "OMG!! SOMEBODY WILL COME TO WORK HIGH ON DRUGS AND GET HURT AND WE'LL GET SUED FOR A GAZILLION DOLLARS".

    I've never even heard of a drug that could get me hurt in an IT cubicle farm.I guess if I wandered over to the loading docks... But my badge will supposedly not allow that.

    Yes, for jobs operating heavy machinery, there's probably an issue of safety, but I've always assumed it was more of an issue that companies didn't want to be hiring people who made poor decisions like taking illegal drugs. In addition to the issues of simple poor judgment, it also can leave you open to blackmail.

    Anyone with that sort of vulnerability who is hired into a position of trust makes the company's money, information or even its entire existence vulnerable. It could be simple theft or embezzlement or the violation of, say, an NDA or something. A government contractor could lose their ability to work for the government, for instance.

     

    That seems all well and good until you realize that (most) drug screenings are horribly ineffective, most drugs have a windows like 8-24/48 hours after ingesting to be detected in a piss test. So you could be high, cause an accident, and still pass the drug test. Weed, a soft drug, is the only one that really gets detected since it has a bigger detection window (IIRC 1-7 days depending on level of use). So random drug testing actually provides incentives for people to use harder drugs that have short windows of detection (IIRC meth has a very short.) Other drug test, like a hair sample test, can detect most drugs for 90 days, but it costs more and isn't always used.

    Cost is a big factor in the tests; to save money the urine sample from a piss test is only fully tested if it fails a separate screening.

    There used to be problems with false positives (ex. poppy seeds), and not being up to date with newer drugs, when i last researced all this MDMA couldn't be detected with a piss test, though wikipedia now says otherwise.

    There are some interesting detalis in the law also, like if your returning from a vacation you are inelligable for random drug test; should a random test occur and you get chosen, you wouldn't have to take it if, for example, you just got back from amsterdam!


     



  • @C-Octothorpe said:

    Last I heard it was bad for morale to eat your coworkers.

    Dilbert proves you wrong:



  • Re: Pre-employment screening

    During the oil embargo (decades ago) I was hired to work as a programmer on a project in Saudi Arabia. On the visa application the Saudi government wanted to know the address of EVERY PLACE I EVER LIVED (all the way back to age 0) and EVERY ORGANIZATION I EVER BELONGED TO. Oh, and somebody - never knew who - tapped my phone. We passed; spent seven months there.




  • @Weng said:

    and they even made sure I didn't have a CDL and that I didn't want a DOT test done at the same time

    Google to the rescue, but what do a commercial drivers license and the Department of Transportation have to do with your drug test?



  • @pnieuwkamp said:

    @Weng said:

    and they even made sure I didn't have a CDL and that I didn't want a DOT test done at the same time

    Google to the rescue, but what do a commercial drivers license and the Department of Transportation have to do with your drug test?

    It's not uncommon for long haul truckers to use drugs to stay awake. It also makes them fudge their log books.  IIRC for every 10 hours on the road they are legally supposed to rest for 8.  So it sounds like a one stop shop for trucker screening.  The hospital may even have it as a special package. 


  • @frits said:

    @serguey123 said:

    @C-Octothorpe said:

    did you torture squirrels when you were young?

    I have never seen one

    That's funny because I remember seeing quite a few in South Korea.

    I go from home to work and viceversa, I'm almost a shut-in so, no idea what animals populate the parks of a city. 

    @Powel Troll said:

    Haha, holy shit. Wow. I almost got trolled hard, but I came to my senses.

    Almost eh?  I never claimed to have a clearence, only that I won't discuss my job nor my actual security clearance, whether I have one or not (or a job or not).  Also I'm not from the US. And really paranoid

    Tapping your phone here is also done and we also get random searches... on the other hand you learn to travel light as no electronic equipment is permited and metal stuff is discourages because of three metal detector arches.

    The people I work for and my government don't see eye to eye so that makes things hard


     



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Why would you want to work for a company that has mandatory drug screenings?
    This.  The reason I don't burn out is because I can burn one.



  • @frits said:

    That's funny because I remember seeing quite a few in South Korea.
    Holy shit that was funny!  And wrong!  So very wrong...sweeeeeet!



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @Matt Westwood said:
    More fuel to my thesis that the US is one great big jail.

    You're missing the "nationalist trolling" tag.

    Except that most Americans agree with him...



  • @hoodaticus said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    @Matt Westwood said:
    More fuel to my thesis that the US is one great big jail.

    You're missing the "nationalist trolling" tag.

    Except that most Americans agree with him...

    Most, huh? Well, they'd be wrong, too. Either way, at least we don't let mass murderers out because they have cancer.



  • @boomzilla said:

    @hoodaticus said:
    @blakeyrat said:
    @Matt Westwood said:
    More fuel to my thesis that the US is one great big jail.
    You're missing the "nationalist trolling" tag.
    Except that most Americans agree with him...
    Most, huh? Well, they'd be wrong, too. Either way, at least we don't let mass murderers out because they have cancer.

    At least they don't provide backing to them and publicly critize them when it is convenient taking hypocrisy to a whole new level



  • @serguey123 said:

    At least they don't provide backing to them and publicly critize them when it is convenient taking hypocrisy to a whole new level

    Ah, so...any sort of backing or alignment implies that you support everything you do?

    tl;dr; TDEMSYR



  • @boomzilla said:

    @serguey123 said:
    At least they don't provide backing to them and publicly critize them when it is convenient taking hypocrisy to a whole new level

    Ah, so...any sort of backing or alignment implies that you support everything you do?

    Maybe, maybe not, but public opinion will think otherwise.  I mean, I find hard to believe that if I give weapons to a dictator, that guy is not going to use them to opress and kill the people of his country, perhaps I'm naive.

    However I think that by now the US should have learned that giving weapons and training to sociopaths is sooner or later going come back to bite them in the ass


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @galgorah said:

    @pnieuwkamp said:

    @Weng said:

    and they even made sure I didn't have a CDL and that I didn't want a DOT test done at the same time

    Google to the rescue, but what do a commercial drivers license and the Department of Transportation have to do with your drug test?

    It's not uncommon for long haul truckers to use drugs to stay awake. It also makes them fudge their log books.  IIRC for every 10 hours on the road they are legally supposed to rest for 8.  So it sounds like a one stop shop for trucker screening.  The hospital may even have it as a special package. 

    Well, for relevance to the OP, there's probably additional testing required under those circumstances than if you're a programmer or something.



  • @FrostCat said:

    @galgorah said:

    @pnieuwkamp said:

    @Weng said:

    and they even made sure I didn't have a CDL and that I didn't want a DOT test done at the same time

    Google to the rescue, but what do a commercial drivers license and the Department of Transportation have to do with your drug test?

    It's not uncommon for long haul truckers to use drugs to stay awake. It also makes them fudge their log books.  IIRC for every 10 hours on the road they are legally supposed to rest for 8.  So it sounds like a one stop shop for trucker screening.  The hospital may even have it as a special package. 
    Well, for relevance to the OP, there's probably additional testing required under those circumstances than if you're a programmer or something.

    But what if you are a programmer and a long haul trucker?  Nerd road rage would be awesome to watch


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