Here's a shocker: Eclipse-based Aptana Studio sucks shit!



  • @derula said:

    @ender said:
    @derula said:
    What? ... Why?
    Because BitKeeper revoked the license it's given to Linux developers, and the Linus didn't want to continue working on Linux until he had a new revision control system.

    Ah. That's a nice story. Thanks.

    There were two versions of Bitkeeper -- a commercial version and a free version.  Linus Torvalds began using the free version because he felt that it was was best free (as in price) tool available.  Unfortunately, the religious extremists only cared that Bitkeeper wasn't open source and therefore was evil.  According to this version of the story some people were working on reverse-engineering Bitkeeper, which pissed off the company that makes Bitkeeper and so they eliminated the free version.



  • @Weng said:

    "Those who can't, become full-time tenured professors and emphatically do not teach".


    Those who can't what? Those who can't form proper sentences with verbs?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @El_Heffe said:

    According to this version of the story

    What happened there?



  • @Weng said:

    I've never heard of anyone actually learning anything from anyone called Professor.

    I had a few. One in particular stands out. He was generally regarded by faculty and students alike as the best teacher in the math department. The year I took it, he was teaching Real Analysis, which ended up being my favorite classes of my college career.



  • @El_Heffe said:

    There were two versions of Bitkeeper -- a commercial version and a free version.  Linus Torvalds began using the free version because he felt that it was was best free (as in price) tool available.  Unfortunately, the religious extremists only cared that Bitkeeper wasn't open source and therefore was evil.  According to this version of the story some people were working on reverse-engineering Bitkeeper, which pissed off the company that makes Bitkeeper and so they eliminated the free version.

    That's what I actually heard, too - IIRC, the free version specifically had a clause that it was to stay free as long as nobody tried to reverse-engineer the protocol. Andrew Tridgell (best known as author of Samba) decided to reverse engineer it anyway (which IIRC, pissed off Linus).



  • @El_Heffe said:

    There were two versions of Bitkeeper -- a commercial version and a free version.  Linus Torvalds began using the free version because he felt that it was was best free (as in price) tool available.  Unfortunately, the religious extremists only cared that Bitkeeper wasn't open source and therefore was evil.  According to this version of the story some people were working on reverse-engineering Bitkeeper, which pissed off the company that makes Bitkeeper and so they eliminated the free version.
     

    Those extremists are at least better than other religious extremists I've seen in the news. At least they didn't bomb Bitkeeper's corporate headquarters and instead made their own open source source control.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @boomzilla said:

    The year I took it, he was teaching Real Analysis

    Math is a special case - the only truly viable career path for that skillset is teaching it.



  • I thought what got termed as "reverse engineering" bitkeeper was that someone tried to telnet into it on a whim, and it worked, and he typed "help," and it gave him a command listing. Or something. Maybe I'm thinking of a different thing.

    Back on topic: I've been using Aptana as an Eclipse plugin for a while (since around when Blakeyrat liked its Javascript intellisense, I think). In my opinion, the extra few things that have to be done manually to set up the Eclipse SDK and install Aptana as a plugin instead of installing Aptana standalone are the better end of that tradeoff, but setup is still something of a hump to get past. However, I'd say it's still about as good as Eclipse-based programs get once it's set up (except maybe for Tasktop), so if they do get the path business straightened out in the next couple releases, you might find it worth trying again.



  • @PJH said:

    @El_Heffe said:
    According to this version of the story
    What happened there?

    Appears to be another WTF involving Community Server.  Instead of that link pointing to the proper location:  http://www.linux.com/archive/feed/44147     it somehow got changed to:  http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/

     Once again TRWTF is Community Server.



  • @kilroo said:

    I thought what got termed as "reverse engineering" bitkeeper was that someone tried to telnet into it on a whim, and it worked, and he typed "help," and it gave him a command listing. Or something. Maybe I'm thinking of a different thing.

    There is disagreement about what actually happned, which is why I phrased my original post as "according to this version of the story".   The Bitkeeper people claim that Andrew Tridgell was reverse engineering Bitkeeper in violation of the license.  Tridgell claims: "I wrote a tool that is interoperable with
    BitKeeper.  I did not use BitKeeper at all in writing this tool and thus was
    never subject to the BitKeeper license. I developed the tool in a
    completely ethical and legal manner."

     



  • @El_Heffe said:

    @PJH said:

    @El_Heffe said:
    According to this version of the story
    What happened there?
    Appears to be another WTF involving Community Server.  Instead of that link pointing to the proper location:  http://www.linux.com/archive/feed/44147     it somehow got changed to:  http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/

     Once again TRWTF is Community Server.

    Uh-huh... is this like how my wife now blames anything being left out on our 1-yr-old when she previously had nobody to blame?



  • @kilroo said:

    I thought what got termed as "reverse engineering" bitkeeper was that someone tried to telnet into it on a whim, and it worked, and he typed "help," and it gave him a command listing. Or something. Maybe I'm thinking of a different thing.

    Relevant links gleaned from the Wikipedia bitkeeper article: [url=http://www.linux.com/archive/articles/44147]BitKeeper and Linux: The end of the road?[/url], [url=http://lwn.net/Articles/132938/]How Tridge reverse engineered BitKeeper[/url] and [url=http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04/14/torvalds_attacks_tridgell/]Torvalds knifes Tridgell: Kernel source row turns nasty[/url].



  • @El_Heffe said:

    Tridgell claims: "I wrote a tool that is interoperable with
    BitKeeper.  I did not use BitKeeper at all in writing this tool and thus was
    never subject to the BitKeeper license. I developed the tool in a
    completely ethical and legal manner."

    How is that possible? Either he's a liar, or he has impressive psychic abilities.

    Or it introduces one of those weird paradoxes, how could he know it was interoperable with BitKeeper without ever using BitKeeper?



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @El_Heffe said:
    Tridgell claims: "I wrote a tool that is interoperable with BitKeeper.  I did not use BitKeeper at all in writing this tool and thus was never subject to the BitKeeper license. I developed the tool in a completely ethical and legal manner."
    How is that possible?  he has impressive psychic abilities.

    Seems like you answered your own question.

    Also, it's possible he means "use" in whatever the sense in the EULA is.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @El_Heffe said:
    Tridgell claims: "I wrote a tool that is interoperable with
    BitKeeper.  I did not use BitKeeper at all in writing this tool and thus was
    never subject to the BitKeeper license. I developed the tool in a
    completely ethical and legal manner."

    How is that possible? Either he's a liar, or he has impressive psychic abilities.

    Or it introduces one of those weird paradoxes, how could he know it was interoperable with BitKeeper without ever using BitKeeper?

    According to Larry McVoy, BitKeeper's primary author, Tridgell wrote a program that could "could pull stuff out of BK trees" without actually using Bitkeeper.  This allegedly was done by "reverse engineering" of Bitkeeper.  So I guess it depends on your definition of "using" Bitkeeper.

     



  • @El_Heffe said:

    According to Larry McVoy, BitKeeper's primary author, Tridgell wrote a program that could "could pull stuff out of BK trees" without actually using Bitkeeper.  This allegedly was done by "reverse engineering" of Bitkeeper.  So I guess it depends on your definition of "using" Bitkeeper.

    That... doesn't actually change anything. It just makes the question slightly more specific: "how can you pull data from BitKeeper without using BitKeeper?"



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @El_Heffe said:
    According to Larry McVoy, BitKeeper's primary author, Tridgell wrote a program that could "could pull stuff out of BK trees" without actually using Bitkeeper.  This allegedly was done by "reverse engineering" of Bitkeeper.  So I guess it depends on your definition of "using" Bitkeeper.

    That... doesn't actually change anything. It just makes the question slightly more specific: "how can you pull data from BitKeeper without using BitKeeper?"

     

    I read somewhere that a bit keeper user can terminal in on the BK port and from a text menu, request a clone of the repository.  As far as I understand it Tridge then pulled data out of the local repository file stream.

    Although he may (or an accomplice) have connected without a BitKeeper client, I think just connecting to a server port means you accept some conditions.

    Springs to mind the old argument "is walking through an open (paper thin?) door breaking and entering or trespass?"



  • @Helix said:

    Springs to mind the old argument "is walking through an open (paper thin?) door breaking and entering or trespass?"
     

    Intent.

    Which leads to subjective discussions on what constitutes "obvious" and what doesn't.

    "Was the this paper door open?"

    "It was not ajar, but it wasn't locked either."

    "It was someone's private home."

    "I did not know that. It wasn't immediately obvious to me"



  • @Helix said:

    I read somewhere that a bit keeper user can terminal in on the BK port and from a text menu, request a clone of the repository.  As far as I understand it Tridge then pulled data out of the local repository file stream.

    Yes, but that's still using BitKeeper because the server is BitKeeper. He's either pulling some Bill Clinton shit and trying to redefine the word "use", or he's a liar.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @Helix said:
    I read somewhere that a bit keeper user can terminal in on the BK port and from a text menu, request a clone of the repository.  As far as I understand it Tridge then pulled data out of the local repository file stream.

    Yes, but that's still using BitKeeper because the server is BitKeeper. He's either pulling some Bill Clinton shit and trying to redefine the word "use", or he's a liar.

     

     

    That's what i thought too - maybe he got a friend to pull it off for him?



  • @dhromed said:

    @Helix said:

    Springs to mind the old argument "is walking through an open (paper thin?) door breaking and entering or trespass?"
     

    Intent.

     

     

    exactly - if it was rice paper then maybe they intended for people to eat their way in?

     



  • @Helix said:

    exactly - if it was rice paper then maybe they intended for people to eat their way in?
     

    Nutritious crime!



  • @dhromed said:

    "I did not know that. It wasn't immediately obvious to me"
     

    Slightly relevant story: I found out that one of the houses I grew up in had an "Antiques and Collectibles" store sign on it, complete with a parking lot with spaces painted on it and what appeared to be a restaurant attached to it with a full breakfast and lunch menu. Intrigued and curious to get some nostalgic memories, I decided to check it out. I entered the house to find a number of antique knick-knacks and other items (mostly tacky stuff), but otherwise the house was laid out much like a residential home. Plus there didn't seem to be a restaurant anywhere. As I was trying to figure out what was going on, I heard footsteps coming down the stairs followed by a startled shriek. When the woman at the base of the stairs asked me who the hell I was, I said, "Well, er, I thought this was a store and a restaurant."

    She looked at me like I was an idiot and said, "Why would I put a store and a restaurant in a suburban col-de-sac?"

    I said, "I was thinking the same thing, but to be honest, it's just as unusual to make your house LOOK like a store and a restaurant."

    I was asked to leave the premises and never come back. It was still nice to see at least the bottom flloor again, although it was completely redone, the overall layout of the house was the same.

    But, anyways, that's probably one of the only times I'd think "I didn't know that." excuse would truly be considered in court. Luckily, I didn't see if it would work because she didn't call the cops on me.



  • @RHuckster said:

    I said, "I was thinking the same thing, but to be honest, it's just as unusual to make your house LOOK like a store and a restaurant."

    I was asked to leave the premises and never come back.

    So... why did she have the sign up?



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @RHuckster said:

    I said, "I was thinking the same thing, but to be honest, it's just as unusual to make your house LOOK like a store and a restaurant."

    I was asked to leave the premises and never come back.

    So... why did she have the sign up?

    That sounds like something that was done in one of those "We'll Remodel Your House For You With Your Favorite Obnoxious Theme" shows.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @RHuckster said:

    I said, "I was thinking the same thing, but to be honest, it's just as unusual to make your house LOOK like a store and a restaurant."

    I was asked to leave the premises and never come back.

    So... why did she have the sign up?

     

    She simply said that's her "thing" whatever that means. I think she was just a nutjob. Nutjobs don't always need reasons to do stuff.



  • @RHuckster said:

    @blakeyrat said:

    @RHuckster said:

    I said, "I was thinking the same thing, but to be honest, it's just as unusual to make your house LOOK like a store and a restaurant."

    I was asked to leave the premises and never come back.

    So... why did she have the sign up?

     

    She simply said that's her "thing" whatever that means. I think she was just a nutjob. Nutjobs don't always need reasons to do stuff.

     

    You need to organise bus loads of people to visit her "restaurant", or better yet, the Antiques Roadshow!



  • The day connecting to a server port means you agree to anything that's not behind at least a click-through or other notice is the day I become a millionaire by putting an image in my sig, spamming evey web board in creation, and billing eveyone for accesss fees for loading the image.



  • @Sir Twist said:

    The day connecting to a server port means you agree to anything that's not behind at least a click-through or other notice is the day I become a millionaire by putting an image in my sig, spamming evey web board in creation, and billing eveyone for accesss fees for loading the image.

    The issue of "agreement with the terms" aside, that doesn't change the fact that he was using the server by connecting to it.

    His defense wasn't "I never agreed with the terms", it was "I never used the software." The former claim would be more believable.



  • But he wasn't reverse-engineering the server. They claimed he was reverse-engineering the client. He claimed he never used the client. (Even if he used the server.)



  • @Xyro said:

    But he wasn't reverse-engineering the server. They claimed he was reverse-engineering the client. He claimed he never used the client. (Even if he used the server.)


    Yes. Mostly, he was being an asshole, per his reputation. He hoped his defense of pedantic dickweedery would overrule Bitkeeper's terms for allowing them to use their stuff for free. Oops.



  • I use it for Django development because I haven't come across a better one (and I don't want to pay for an IDE, because I'm really just playing around with Django).

    I haven't actually had any huge problems. It even has a pretty decent step-through debugger.



  • @Helix said:

    @blakeyrat said:

    @Helix said:
    I read somewhere that a bit keeper user can terminal in on the BK port and from a text menu, request a clone of the repository.  As far as I understand it Tridge then pulled data out of the local repository file stream.

    Yes, but that's still using BitKeeper because the server is BitKeeper. He's either pulling some Bill Clinton shit and trying to redefine the word "use", or he's a liar.

     

     

    That's what i thought too - maybe he got a friend to pull it off for him?

    Kinky.



  • @Xyro said:

    @boomzilla said:
    @Xyro said:
    @Inigo Montoya said:
    Aptana Studio uses the Java $HOME variable to place the default workspace location, which, by default, is wonky on Windows.
    Hmm, I don't know what $HOME variable he could be talking about.
    I suspect he meant that Java was using the $HOME environment variable. Which seems to be consistent with where blakey said stuff ended up. The other option would be $JAVA_HOME, but that doesn't really make sense, because it's meant to point to the location of the jdk, not anything about the user (maybe that's where your java.home and user.home come from).
    But there is no such $HOME environmental variable in Windows...

     

    There may not be a $HOME variable, but windows has many equivalents.  Hey look at that -- %APPDATA% ---

    Variable                                          Typical value (May vary, depending on system)
    %ALLUSERSPROFILE%                  C:\Documents and Settings\All Users
    %APPDATA%                                 C:\Documents and Settings\{username}\Application Data
     %HOMEDRIVE%                              C:
    %HOMEPATH%                                \Documents and Settings\{username}
    %PROGRAMFILES%                       Directory containing program files, usually C:\Program Files
    %SYSTEMDRIVE%                          The drive containing the Windows XP root directory, usually C:
    %SYSTEMROOT%                           The Windows XP root directory, usually C:\Windows
    %TEMP% and %TMP%                     C:\DOCUME~1\{username}\LOCALS~1\Temp
    %USERNAME%                                {username}
    %USERPROFILE%                           C:\Documents and Settings\{username}
    %WINDIR%                                       C:\Windows >



  • @boomzilla said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    How does that work if the user is offline? Edit: Oh I missed "sync files". Hm.

    Also, you've reached the limit of my knowledge on the subject, which was gained moments ago via google, and not being a sysadmin type, I'm not real familiar with any of it. If I had to guess, though, I'd say such a set up is probably very rare, if only because there probably aren't many substantial networks of linux computers where this would be important.

    I also wonder how common roaming profiles really are in corporate networks. Especially as relates to how well that sort of thing scales vs the benefit. In a small lab where you never know which machine you might use it might make a lot of sense, but it seems like mostly you'd be using a single machine at your desk or whatever.

    You're pretty much right, unless someone uses a third party roaming profile management instead of what's built in to windows/windows server in which case it's next to useless..  The environment variables will "point" to C, which will get synced to the network on the next valid connection (or log-off if you're on a valid connection).

    And it aides in keeping backups of user data for non-roaming users, in case of spectacular hardware failure. The "Roaming" user can log into another desktop and, barring Software Installs or a 200 GB music library, work without noticing much difference.

    Also, in an environment where the detection of a virus in a file transfer session locks the user out of the network/servers (such as when the infected desktop attempts to sync data), much hilarity and delight.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I got some flack about my tone on the third bug report

    I can't imagine why...



  • @CrisW said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    I got some flack about my tone on the third bug report

    I can't imagine why...

    That wittiness was well-worth reviving a thread from August.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Lovely. Wait... whoa... hold on doggies... D:\Users? That's not where my profile is! My profile's on the C: drive, except for the Documents folder which is on M:. (Or I'd accept \main.corp\docs.) Oh, and it's not named "My Documents", just "Documents." Where the holy fuck did Aptana get this path from? Wrong, Aptana! Wrong wrong wrong!!!

    (Actually I can kind of guess. Roaming data on our network configuration is kept in D:\Users\MyAccount\AppData\Roaming... my guess is that Aptana asked the OS for the Roaming data folder, then ass-pulled relative paths from it. That's just a guess.)

    Ok, so it writes bullshit into my D: drive, let's take a look at what it put in there:

    We all got caught up in side issues, but did you try: File -> Switch Workspace -> Other. Then browse to where you want it to store your workspace, and tell it to use that place.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @boomzilla said:

    @blakeyrat said:

    Lovely. Wait... whoa... hold on doggies... D:\Users? That's not where my profile is! My profile's on the C: drive, except for the Documents folder which is on M:. (Or I'd accept \main.corp\docs.) Oh, and it's not named "My Documents", just "Documents." Where the holy fuck did Aptana get this path from? Wrong, Aptana! Wrong wrong wrong!!!

    (Actually I can kind of guess. Roaming data on our network configuration is kept in D:\Users\MyAccount\AppData\Roaming... my guess is that Aptana asked the OS for the Roaming data folder, then ass-pulled relative paths from it. That's just a guess.)

    Ok, so it writes bullshit into my D: drive, let's take a look at what it put in there:

    We all got caught up in side issues, but did you try: File -> Switch Workspace -> Other. Then browse to where you want it to store your workspace, and tell it to use that place.

    But does File->Print work?



  • @frits said:

    @blakeyrat said:

    The question is, "if Git is so important to you, why didn't you just install it yourself?"

     

    This user guide to installing Git on Windows might give you some insight into why they don't automatically install it: http://help.github.com/win-set-up-git/

    Note the combination of setup wizard, SSH key generation, and terminal jokeying.

     

    Sorry, that's bogus. Installing Git only requires running the installer. The two other steps make git able to use the account you (may) have set up at github. Presumably Aptana Studio does not require a github account for working.

     



  • Good thing this thread got necro'd so we can add spam and useless posts to it.



  • @RHuckster said:

    But, anyways, that's probably one of the only times I'd think "I didn't know that." excuse would truly be considered in court. Luckily, I didn't see if it would work because she didn't call the cops on me.

    I think that's referred to as the "reasonable man" criteria in legal contexts in the U.S. As in "Would a reasonable man be expected to know that it was a private residence, or could a reasonable man think the store/restaurant trappings were for real?" Of course, the question of what a "reasonable man" would do is not cut and dried, but that's why we have judges and juries and appeals courts and precedents and the first cut rule: "The opposite of what blakey would do."



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Oh: "Aptana Studio uses the Java $HOME variable to place the default workspace location, which, by default, is wonky on Windows."

    So not only is Java buggy, it's CONCEPTUALLY FLAWED. There's no such thing as a single "home location" on Windows; AppData, Roaming AppData, Documents, all have their own locations which may or may not even be on the same drive. That's like DOM, which assumes a computer can only ever have a single monitor... it's flawed in concept, so there's no way the execution can be bug-free. Cripes.

    So, let's see here...

    Some OSes have a notion of a single per-user "home" directory, into which user-specific configurations and caches and whatnot are typically stored. Some do not have a single such location, but have a handful of common locations that serve similar purposes. The core Java API provides a convenience property that exposes some reasonable version of a home directory in a platform-appropriate manner. Some software written by some developer in Java chooses to use this feature as a default in a way that isn't appropriate on some systems, or that you personally don't like, and therefore, Java is "conceptually flawed."

    I guess hammers are conceptually flawed too, because I've seen a lot of stuff that I don't like that was built using hammers.



  • Do you ever get the feeling that you're talking to a brick wall?



  • @Sutherlands said:

    Do you ever get the feeling that you're talking to a brick wall?

    I have teenage kids and an ex-wife. I'm well and truly used to it. :-)



  • @UNIX said:

    Everything is a file

    The UNIX and Linux crowd live by this dogma and apply it to the whole world.

    Blakeyrat is a file called $home. If he doesn't want to be a file, he doesn't exist.

    It's all Window's fault that it doesn't accept this dogma.

     



  • @JvdL said:

    @UNIX said:

    Everything is a file

    The UNIX and Linux crowd live by this dogma and apply it to the whole world.

    Blakeyrat is a file called $home. If he doesn't want to be a file, he doesn't exist.

    It's all Window's fault that it doesn't accept this dogma.

     

    Whatever you're smokin' son, pass it on down! I wanna see me some green pinstriped flyin' buffalo too!



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I hate how "open source" is code for "we do not give a shit at all".
     

    Sometimes it's really "I gave a shit 3 years ago when I had a great idea I couldn't follow through on" or "Someday someone else will take over this project and again, briefly, give a shit".

     



  •  Aw, man! That really sucks...I was hoping you'd had at least an opportunity to see what it can (and more importantly cannot) do, as that's how I found this thread in the first place...trying to find if Aptana could copy a file path from within a project, either from the project explorer, or ANYWHERE ELSE...

    So okay. Not the biggest fan of MS, but at least they got one thing right: Click in the address bar in Explorer and you can select (and subsequently COPY&PASTE) the current dirpath. I needed a quick copy&paste of that path to tell another dev where a particular file was, that I found using Aptanta's file search. Ordinarily no big deal, right?

     Well, after having dealt with the install "issues" of Aptana multiple times, before having read this post, I'd gotten used to it. I guess I'm just abunantly forgiving when it comes to installs...in any case, there have been...let's just say an exponentially increasing number of WTF!? moments the more I learn the intricacies of navigating Aptana's preferences...

    Having said that, Aptana Studio 3 is far superior (can't remember if the install improved, unfortunately) to Aptana Studio 2, and the reason I continue to use it to this day is because of Just that: The file search. It is the fastest, most regex-complete search I've ever found.

    Having said That...they really jacked up the regex search&replace with their last few updates, as far as the inline search goes(as opposed to the popup search window).

    So overall, my confidence in Aptana is beginning to teeter, to say the least...


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