But setup ate my memory!



  • I just tried to install Ubuntu 10.4 on an old laptop (166MHz, 64MB RAM). The (text mode) installer aborted because:

    kernel: [ 1546.625217] Out of memory: kill process 17861 (debootstrap) score 74 or a child
    kernel: [ 1546.625268] Killed process 18557 (ar)
    debootstrap: zcat: error inflating
    debootstrap: tar: short read

    I guess I need more swap space. Am I TRWTF for recycling old hardware?



  • https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/installation-guide/i386/minimum-hardware-reqts.html

    You're right on the border of having barely enough RAM and having not enough RAM. Maybe you have 64MB and the installer needs 64MiB?



  • @fatbull said:

    I just tried to install Ubuntu 10.4 on an old laptop (166MHz, 64MB RAM). The (text mode) installer aborted because:

    kernel: [ 1546.625217] Out of memory: kill process 17861 (debootstrap) score 74 or a child
    kernel: [ 1546.625268] Killed process 18557 (ar)
    debootstrap: zcat: error inflating
    debootstrap: tar: short read

    I guess I need more swap space. Am I TRWTF for recycling old hardware?

     

    Old hardware, no.  Old horses that passed their racing days 6 years ago and should've just been shot for glue by now, yes.



  •  Try another small linux distro, there are lots of them that even load a X environment.



  • @fatbull said:

    Am I TRWTF for recycling old hardware?

     

    No. But trying to do it with Ubuntu, yes you are. I am running Zenwalk (good developer environment) on a 10-year-old Thinkpad, and it works OK (for work purposes - surfing, docs, email). Mind you, it's a big brutal machine compared to yours (500 MHz and 256 MB). So try Damn Small, Crunchbang, Puppy, or MiniNo.



  •  Damn small linux requires too much memory. Last time i tried it, it wouldn't install on a 2MB RAM computer! It required at least 4MB!



  • @tchize said:

     Damn small linux requires too much memory. Last time i tried it, it wouldn't install on a 2MB RAM computer! It required at least 4MB!

    What a hog. I suppose the "damn small" part is hipsterically ironic. 640kB should be enough for every system.



  • I don't know the command to kill a process, so I guess I would have had to settle for the child sacrifice to fix this one. Thankfully, there's a school nearby.



  • @GreyWolf said:

    @fatbull said:
    Am I TRWTF for recycling old hardware?
    No. But trying to do it with Ubuntu, yes you are.

    Damn!

    The laptop has been working as a minimal web and file server since around 2004; a poor man's home NAS if you want to put it this way. It was running Debian Etch just fine until its harddisk died this week, so I thought I could install Ubuntu (server edition) instead. Perhaps I really should replace it with something new.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @fatbull said:

    The laptop has been working as a minimal web and file server since around 2004; a poor man's home NAS if you want to put it this way. It was running Debian Etch just fine until its harddisk died this week, so I thought I could install Ubuntu (server edition) instead. Perhaps I really should replace it with something new.

    Just put Debian back on it. Why the hell do you need Ubanto on a server anyway? Hell, what does someone who's been using Linux since 2004 need with Ubanto anyway?



  • @Weng said:

    Hell, what does someone who's been using Linux since 2004 need with Ubanto anyway?
     

    I've been using Linux since 1998 and use Ubuntu as my primary OS at home. More for the laziness than anything else! (It Just Works™)



  • @Kiss me I'm Polish said:

    I suppose the "damn small" part is hipsterically ironic. 640kB should be enough for every system.
     

    For that (and pre-80386 Intels), there's ELKS, but it seems to have been dead since about 2003.



  • @Zemm said:

    @Weng said:

    Hell, what does someone who's been using Linux since 2004 need with Ubanto anyway?
     

    I've been using Linux since 1998 and use Ubuntu as my primary OS at home. More for the laziness than anything else! (It Just Works™)

     

    At least for the linux user definition of "Just Works".



  • @DescentJS said:

    @Zemm said:
    I've been using Linux since 1998 and use Ubuntu as my primary OS at home. More for the laziness than anything else! (It Just Works™)
    At least for the linux user definition of "Just Works".
    I was recently seting up a dual-boot XP/Ubuntu system for my kids, and Ubuntu worked better than XP (and yes, I realise XP is quite old now so it's not a strictly fair comparison). In particular, XP couldn't see the network card, so I had to boot into Ubuntu to download the XP drivers. At the time my own system was down with a defunct power supply, otherwise I could just have used that.


    Ubuntu also got the sound card working properly straight away; I had to download and install (and figure out the weird-arse interface for) the XP drivers to get it working in XP.


    In short, the linux user definition of "Just Works" is the same as the windows user definition. It's not 2004 any more.



  • @Scarlet Manuka said:

    In short, the linux user definition of "Just Works" is the same as the windows user definition. It's not 2004 any more.

     

    You're right, it's not 2004 anymore. So why are you using a OS from 2002?



  • @DescentJS said:

    @Zemm said:

    @Weng said:

    Hell, what does someone who's been using Linux since 2004 need with Ubanto anyway?
     

    I've been using Linux since 1998 and use Ubuntu as my primary OS at home. More for the laziness than anything else! (It Just Works™)

     

    At least for the linux user definition of "Just Works".

     

    It's much easier than looking around warez sites for Windows. :-P And then around other sites for the drivers.

     



  • @BC_Programmer said:

    You're right, it's not 2004 anymore. So why are you using a OS from 2002?

    Because in 2004 I was using an OS from 1998.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Scarlet Manuka said:

    I was recently seting up a dual-boot XP/Ubuntu system for my kids, and Ubuntu worked better than XP (and yes, I realise XP is quite old now so it's not a strictly fair comparison). In particular, XP couldn't see the network card, so I had to boot into Ubuntu to download the XP drivers. At the time my own system was down with a defunct power supply, otherwise I could just have used that.


    Ubuntu also got the sound card working properly straight away; I had to download and install (and figure out the weird-arse interface for) the XP drivers to get it working in XP.


    In short, the linux user definition of "Just Works" is the same as the windows user definition. It's not 2004 any more.

    I know it's fucking impossible for most people who use this particular argument to wrap their head around, but the hardware you had problems with is [b]significantly newer than XP[/b]

    It is also significantly OLDER than the current release of Ubuntu.

    Driver authors cannot predict the future. Service packs do not include drivers because they would be insanely huge to virtually no benefit.Now, if you'd compared Windows 7 and a current Ubuntu release, you'd find that for all reasonable consumer configurations, both of them have identical hardware compatability (except for the dozens of correct-but-obscure configurations Linux does not properly support no matter the flavor)



  • Did you miss the bit of my post where I said "yes, I realise XP is quite old now"?


    I didn't expect XP to predict the future. I wasn't surprised that I needed to download some drivers (it's just a pain when it's the network card drivers you need to download). My point wasn't really about XP at all.

    My point was in fact the same point you're making: that both Linux and Windows "Just Work" on pretty much any normal hardware configuration, and that people like [b]DescentJS[/b] who think that the Linux user experience usually involves hardware issues need to stop living in the past. I probably did not make this explicit enough in my earlier post; sorry.



  • @Scarlet Manuka said:

    My point was in fact the same point you're making: that both Linux and Windows "Just Work" on pretty much any normal hardware configuration, and that people like DescentJS who think that the Linux user experience usually involves hardware issues need to stop living in the past.

    The problem is, we've all had hardware issues in Linux like LAST YEAR.

    The secondary problem is, if you grill Linux users who claim to have no hardware problems, it usually turns out they do but they've worked around them. (Maybe even not consciously.) Fictional conversation:

    Me: "So I tried Ubuntu on my HP1000tx tablet PC, and it doesn't work at all."
    Lunix: "Weird! I have the same box and it works fine!"
    Me: "What did you do to get sleep mode working?"
    Lunix: "Oh. I just don't use sleep mode, because it'll crash when you try to wake it."
    Me: "Ok. What did you do to get the volume keys and CD/DVD controls on the keyboard working?"
    Lunix: "I never use those."
    Me: "Oook, how do you get it to recognize a projector plugged into the VGA port? It doesn't seem to work without a reboot..."
    Lunix: "Who uses a tablet PC to do presentations? I sure don't!"
    Me: "Sigh. Fine. How did you get the touchscreen working? I'd like to use handwriting input like I did in Vista."
    Lunix: "Oh I just use it as a laptop."

    Linux users are like PC gamers: they're definition of "everything works" is hilarious different from everybody else's definition.

    And now, apropos of nothing, here's a weird bug I found in Chrome today.



  • Fair enough, though I think "we've all had hardware issues in Linux like LAST YEAR" may be overstating your case there. I guess when I said "pretty much any normal hardware configuration" I was overstating mine :)

    But I was talking about normal home user configurations. I don't think projectors or touch screens would apply to most users (I realise tablet PC users will have a touchscreen). Fancy keyboard keys are fair enough, since newer systems probably have them (I only have basic keyboards, so I can't speak from experience on that point). Sleep mode is also a fair thing to expect from a laptop, but I don't have one of those either so I haven't tried it.

    So, to the extent that I've used Linux, I haven't had any hardware problems. I would expect that many other people with common hardware probably haven't had problems. Obviously, the more complex your hardware requirements become, the higher the chances of problems arising, and I'd expect that Linux will generally fail before Windows. But that doesn't mean that the majority of Linux users necessarily encounter problems.



  • @Scarlet Manuka said:

    So, to the extent that I've used Linux, I haven't had any hardware problems.

    I bet if I grilled you, I'd find that there are several features of your hardware that do not work. That conversation above is made-up, but heavily based on reality.

    If all you've used it on is a couple of beige box desktops, why are you sitting here telling us that it works fine? Because I can guarantee, put it on something that even resembles an edge-case (like, say, a tablet PC, even an extremely popular model from a major vendor) and Linux fails, and fails hard.

    I enjoy how a keyboard with media keys is a "fancy" keyboard, in your crazy Luddite Linux user language. Where do you even buy a non-"fancy" keyboard? (Oh wait, lemme guess, it's a Model-M from 1988, right?)

    @Scarlet Manuka said:

    I would expect that many other people with common hardware probably haven't had problems.

    I mean, it's great that you "would expect" that, I "would expect" it also. But do you have anything to back it up? A QA summary covering a wide variety of hardware? Surveys from Ubuntu users? You personally haven't even tried it on a laptop! (The most common class of hardware for a couple of years now.)

    @Scarlet Manuka said:

    But that doesn't mean that the majority of Linux users necessarily encounter problems.

    I argue that they do, and that they purposefully ignore the problems (and mislead others) in a misguided tactic to get more people to try Linux.



  • So, to the extent that I've used Linux, I haven't had any hardware problems.

    It's problematic as HELL. Want your display's native res over HDMI? Nah. Have 720 or 1080i with no further options even after installing drivers manually on your 1680x1050 progressive display even though it's the DEFAULT under Windows. Have constant network drops even though it works FINE under Windows. Have random display corruption over VGA even though it works GREAT under Windows. I've got an install on two desktops and a netbook, the netbook actually shipping with Linux, and all of them have huge basic usability issues. Spin it how you want, Linux has driver issues all over the shop (as well as a lot of badly written apps - run Aptitude from the terminal and watch the flood of failed asserts) which probably isn't helped by the fact that the kernel writers refused to use an open driver standard way back when one was offered. (much to the annoyance of a few people I know who have experimented with their own kernels and can't get drivers as a result. Free speech my ass)



  • I think it's right to assert that "just works" really depends on how you use your computer and what's important to you. I use Linux and it "just works" for me. I can say this easily, because I use a big ole tower, I am not a gamer, I don't care for expensive/cutting-edge hardware, I don't use sleep modes, etc. My computer is primarily for coding, hacking, surfing, SSRR, media playback, file sharing, and some minor websever stuff. I only started using wifi a few months ago out of necessity. If I was a gamer with a laptop using sleep mode or whatever, my experience would likely be different (from what I hear). And with the same argument as above, I have problems with Windows, because of its half-hearted implementation of virtual desktops and focus-follows-mouse, the lack of a usable familiar shell, utterly poor remote administration, etc., to say nothing of its inherent security issues or its ecosystem's general attitude of presuming the user is an idiot. Oh, and there's that old insert and scroll lock key issue. These things are important to me because I used them almost daily, unlike a gamer or whatever.

    In any case, the point is, comparing the usage of an OS is worthless without comparing the user. Actually, I think this is true of pretty much everything.



  • Linux works for me because it detected this old playcomp's network card automatically, which XP has never done in my life, it auto-detected the video card and offered some drivers that enabled wobbly windows which I then turned off because WTF is that, and it contained a good VNC server by default, enabling me to connect to it and do shit from my main Windows rig.

    Other than that I don't use it, so I guess that's primarily why it works for me.



  • Okay, so first of all, I'm not one who recommends Linux on workstations.

    Said that, there's a ton of cases, ESPECIALLY on laptops, where the hardware has El Weirdo Quirks, which are worked around in vendor-provided Windows drivers.
    Often, replacing computer vendor's version of the driver with the same one (not to even mention newer) "stock" version from the manufacturer of the chips causes stuff to crash and burn even under Windows.
    And well, non-Windows OSes don't get drivers from the vendor, they get them slapped together by hobbyists. That. Means. Trouble.

    And now for something completely different: Why the FUCK does HP install some crazy Broadcom bluetooth module that DOES NOT report as a generic bluetooth device to the system, and works only with special crappy Broadcom app provided by HP?
    Seriously, what good is a Bluetooth radio that can't be "seen" by third-party software that wants to communicate via BT?



  • @Xyro said:

    utterly poor remote administration,

    Crack. You are smoking it.

    @bannedfromcoding said:

    Said that, there's a ton of cases, ESPECIALLY on laptops, where the hardware has El Weirdo Quirks, which are worked around in vendor-provided Windows drivers.

    Linux fans are always happy to make this assertion. I doubt it's true. (It could be... possibly... but I doubt it.)

    "Back in the day", I had a WinTV PVR 150 (IIRC), and I decided to build a Linux MythTV box, because a bunch of geeky friends recommended it to me. So I look at the supported hardware list, and, lo and behold, the WinTV PVR 150 is on there. Woot! I install Linux, and... the driver doesn't fucking work. So I go back to my geeky friends, and they can't get the driver to work either. Their excuse? "The vendor must have switched hardware but kept the model number the same." Suuure. And I have a bridge to sell you.

    @bannedfromcoding said:

    Often, replacing computer vendor's version of the driver with the same one (not to even mention newer) "stock" version from the manufacturer of the chips causes stuff to crash and burn even under Windows.

    I'm not going to say it never happens, because never say never. But I've never experienced this, and I've admined thousands of PCs with crazy hardware configurations from different vendors.

    @bannedfromcoding said:

    And well, non-Windows OSes don't get drivers from the vendor, they get them slapped together by hobbyists. That. Means. Trouble.

    The real problem is they don't fucking QA. They just hide behind their "no warranties!" sign, and don't give a flying fuck whether the product actually works for most users or not.

    If you want a working Linux laptop, I wager the solution is to buy a Thinkpad. Since Linux people hate usability, they correspondingly love IBM, and only buy that clunky-ass ugly-ass IBM-designed laptop line.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @Xyro said:
    utterly poor remote administration,

    Crack. You are smoking it.
    I won't say I'm not, but it's free and open source crack which I can trivially tunnel over SSH. Oh, and through it I can connect to a console server to have full control over the entity of the machine, including hardware ejects and reboots, through which commands can be sent to a thousand servers interactively en masse if needed. I can flip the ports of a hundred web servers before a Windows admin could mouse around to log in. And if the Windows admin is actually physically remote, then it could be done before the admin even gets to the graphical prompt! Especially on Tuesdays.



  • @Xyro said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    @Xyro said:
    utterly poor remote administration,

    Crack. You are smoking it.
    I won't say I'm not, but it's free and open source crack which I can trivially tunnel over SSH. Oh, and through it I can connect to a console server to have full control over the entity of the machine, including hardware ejects and reboots, through which commands can be sent to a thousand servers interactively en masse if needed. I can flip the ports of a hundred web servers before a Windows admin could mouse around to log in. And if the Windows admin is actually physically remote, then it could be done before the admin even gets to the graphical prompt! Especially on Tuesdays.

    And then you want to set the default homepage on your user's browsers to your company's homepage, and you're fucked.

    Look, there are some things Linux remote administration does well... for servers... although your examples are ridiculously contrived. For desktops, it's woefully incomplete. There's a reason 95% of companies use Windows and Active Directory, you know.



  • And well, non-Windows OSes don't get drivers from the vendor, they get them slapped together by hobbyists.

    I didn't even have HDMI until I downloaded the proper nVidia drivers and even then it was unusable.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Look, there are some things Linux remote administration does well... for servers... although your examples are ridiculously contrived. For desktops, it's woefully incomplete.

    Desktop..? What is... desktop?

    @Xyro said:

    In any case, the point is, comparing the usage of an OS is worthless without comparing the user.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I enjoy how a keyboard with media keys is a "fancy" keyboard, in your crazy Luddite Linux user language. Where do you even buy a non-"fancy" keyboard? (Oh wait, lemme guess, it's a Model-M from 1988, right?)

    I'm using Windows 7 (used to use ubuntu but I'm playing some games and... you know ;)) and I didn't feel enough motivated to use dual boot configuration, but to the point - my keyboard doesn't have media keys, and I bought it last year - around 10$. Reason - I don't freaking need those keys - if I watch something, I simply press space to pause (or other key, depends on the player). If I want to pause music (which is rare, because I don't like music in background - when I listen, I listen and nothing else :-) ), i go to player and press the damn pause button/key. Is that so hard? So, does anyone here have any use of these keys, or are you like me?



  • @takashipl said:

    @blakeyrat said:

    I enjoy how a keyboard with media keys is a "fancy" keyboard, in your crazy Luddite Linux user language. Where do you even buy a non-"fancy" keyboard? (Oh wait, lemme guess, it's a Model-M from 1988, right?)

    I'm using Windows 7 (used to use ubuntu but I'm playing some games and... you know ;)) and I didn't feel enough motivated to use dual boot configuration, but to the point - my keyboard doesn't have media keys, and I bought it last year - around 10$. Reason - I don't freaking need those keys - if I watch something, I simply press space to pause (or other key, depends on the player). If I want to pause music (which is rare, because I don't like music in background - when I listen, I listen and nothing else :-) ), i go to player and press the damn pause button/key. Is that so hard? So, does anyone here have any use of these keys, or are you like me?

    My desktop keyboard does not have any fancy keys either

    The one that does have them is my laptop but I don't use the keys as I wipe all the programs I don't use, including the ones that control the special key function or whatever



  • @takashipl said:

    my keyboard doesn't have media keys,

    @serguey123 said:

    My desktop keyboard does not have any fancy keys either

    Ok, what do you guys want? A trophy?

    The point is, as long as the tablet's media keys weren't working, you can't claim that Linux "just works" on the tablet. At least, not without being a liar.



  • blakeyrat:

    and i would point out that i've had more problems with multimedia devices that simply stop working with newer versions of windows because the manufacturer are too lazy fucks to write updated drivers that work fine in linux

    i would point out that an SB Audigy 4 works WAAAY better in Linux than it does in Windows

    neither of these are Microsoft's fault - they're the third parties fault, but their party driver availability is part of the ease or difficult of use of any operating system

    a little less hyperbole, a little more facts pls.  Both operating systems (especially Win7/Server 2008R2.. core OS team did a great job there) are pretty damn good - each one has their own difficulties and their own superorities.  More facts, less hyperbole pls..

    and a lot less mutual e-peening

    [edit]

    oh an i have a Hauppauge PVR-150 (the same device you had) and a PVR-500.. drivers worked fine, you just hadd to RTFM and run the command to fetch the firmware... until newer distros where it's just there... and by "newer distros" i mean "younger than 5 years old"

    that machine is now a 7MC because i have a Ceton InfiniTV 4 MOCUR

    [edit2]

    oh and linux works just fine on my Vaio and i don't know what shit you're smoking with your fucking childish 1990s dated antics about linux usablity, fire up a Fedora installation in HyperV and play with it for a bit so you can STFU.

     making shit up about either operating system (Windows or Linux) helps neither. 

     and thus here i am defending BOTH operating systems



  • Xyro: powershell, learn about it.



  • @bannedfromcoding said:

    And well, non-Windows OSes don't get drivers from the vendor, they get them slapped together by hobbyists. That. Means. Trouble.

    you're an idiot.

     ATI drivers for linux: http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/linux/Pages/radeon_linux.aspx?type=2.4.1&product=2.4.1.3.42&lang=English

    nVidia drivers for linux: http://www.nvidia.com/object/unix.html

    notice the websites? YEAH THE FARKING MANUFACTURERS

    PS: those are also WRITTEN by the manufacturers.



  • @Kazan said:

    and i would point out that i've had more problems with multimedia devices that simply stop working with newer versions of windows because the manufacturer are too lazy fucks to write updated drivers that work fine in linux

    I'm not justifying your problems, but let's look at the facts:

    Windows' driver ABI has changed TWICE. EVER. Once from the switch from Win32-based OSes to WinNT-based OSes, and again between XP and Vista. (And Vista could run XP drivers, BTW... it was a pain, but it could.)

    Linux doesn't even HAVE a driver ABI. Or rather, it does, but it's liable to change for every release, no matter how minor. This means the *only* reason a driver for Linux 2.6.11 works in Linux 2.6.15 is because some geek took time out of his day to re-write/re-compile it. And he did it, not because he's part of a QA team with a list of approved hardware to test, but because he has a copy of the hardware in his own computer and got pissed that it stopped working.

    I mean, take your pick of the two. But I'd much rather have the Windows option when it comes to drivers.

    @Kazan said:

    oh an i have a Hauppauge PVR-150 (the same device you had) and a PVR-500.. drivers worked fine, you just hadd to RTFM and run the command to fetch the firmware... until newer distros where it's just there... and by "newer distros" i mean "younger than 5 years old"

    That anecdote was actually from probably longer than 5 years ago, I don't remember exactly when. At the time I had a Linux expert working on it, and he finally gave up after about 6-7 hours of us dinking around with various options-- at one point we actually got a postage-stamp-sized video with no audio, IIRC, but that's the best progress we made.

    The real point of the story is that the PVR-150 was on the compatible hardware list, and then it didn't actually fucking work.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @takashipl said:
    my keyboard doesn't have media keys,
    @serguey123 said:
    My desktop keyboard does not have any fancy keys either
    Ok, what do you guys want? A trophy?

    That would be nice



  • @Kazan said:

    Xyro: powershell, learn about it.

    FWIW, I do intend to learn it and look forward to using it. I haven't bothered with it much yet because my work laptop is still stuck on XP (I know I know), but my employer will be handing me an upgrade very soon to shiny new W7. Then I can finally see through the titlebars of my windows! Yessssssssssss! But I'll probably still have to install Cywgin to make the environment useful...



  • @blakeyrat said:

    ABI stuff
    Valid complaint, but it's not a problem when you distribute the source, which is the preferred method of distribution anyway. (And let the distro managers handle the binaries if compiling puts a bad taste in your mouth.)



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @Kazan said:
    and i would point out that i've had more problems with multimedia devices that simply stop working with newer versions of windows because the manufacturer are too lazy fucks to write updated drivers that work fine in linux

    I'm not justifying your problems, but let's look at the facts:

    Windows' driver ABI has changed TWICE. EVER. Once from the switch from Win32-based OSes to WinNT-based OSes, and again between XP and Vista. (And Vista could run XP drivers, BTW... it was a pain, but it could.)

    Linux doesn't even HAVE a driver ABI. Or rather, it does, but it's liable to change for every release, no matter how minor. This means the *only* reason a driver for Linux 2.6.11 works in Linux 2.6.15 is because some geek took time out of his day to re-write/re-compile it. And he did it, not because he's part of a QA team with a list of approved hardware to test, but because he has a copy of the hardware in his own computer and got pissed that it stopped working.

    I mean, take your pick of the two. But I'd much rather have the Windows option when it comes to drivers.

    @Kazan said:

    oh an i have a Hauppauge PVR-150 (the same device you had) and a PVR-500.. drivers worked fine, you just hadd to RTFM and run the command to fetch the firmware... until newer distros where it's just there... and by "newer distros" i mean "younger than 5 years old"

    That anecdote was actually from probably longer than 5 years ago, I don't remember exactly when. At the time I had a Linux expert working on it, and he finally gave up after about 6-7 hours of us dinking around with various options-- at one point we actually got a postage-stamp-sized video with no audio, IIRC, but that's the best progress we made.

    The real point of the story is that the PVR-150 was on the compatible hardware list, and then it didn't actually fucking work.

    ABI complaints: semi valid, but easily handled by linux (notice how i pointed out that i have devices that didn't get ABI updated on windows updated on linux?) - neither OS is terribly better than the other in this regard.  the complete destruction of the DirectAudio HAL was the biggest load of crap ever (but i understand why they did it - 50% of BSODs were being caused by creativ- erg sound card drivers)

    the PVR-150 was on the compatible hardware list, and it worked fine.. it was like 5 step instructions to setup the driver before the firmware was included with most distros... 1 step instructions now (plug the device into your PCI slot).  Don't blame the OS for your buddies being too dumb to RTFM (and yes.. i love shoving RTFM into the face of other linux users because they love doing it to new people)

     don't let incompetance color your perception of an OS.. that would just be like someone trying to setup a Ceton InfiniTV 4 on Windows 7 without RTFM.

    one annoyance with 7MC is it likes to bitch about no signal with the Ceton, but then record the program fine.  i should perhaps email the MC team and bitch to them directly.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    At the time I had a Linux expert working on it

    No.  I notice that your Linux and Apple contacts don't seem to be too competent generally. Makes me wonder.

    Not that Linux or Mac are anywhere near perfect, but they have far fewer problems in reality than you proclaim. Try finding a few competent people and reassess the non-Windows OSs, they're pretty usable on the whole.



  • @Ilya Ehrenburg said:

    @blakeyrat said:

    At the time I had a Linux expert working on it

    No.  I notice that your Linux and Apple contacts don't seem to be too competent generally. Makes me wonder.

    Not that Linux or Mac are anywhere near perfect, but they have far fewer problems in reality than you proclaim. Try finding a few competent people and reassess the non-Windows OSs, they're pretty usable on the whole.

    "Deflect! Deflect! This debate is going down in flames!"



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @Ilya Ehrenburg said:

    @blakeyrat said:

    At the time I had a Linux expert working on it

    No.  I notice that your Linux and Apple contacts don't seem to be too competent generally. Makes me wonder.

    Not that Linux or Mac are anywhere near perfect, but they have far fewer problems in reality than you proclaim. Try finding a few competent people and reassess the non-Windows OSs, they're pretty usable on the whole.

    "Deflect! Deflect! This debate is going down in flames!"

    he has a point, and you know very well i have a vested interest in pumping Windows.. and yet here i am defending and criticizing both operating systems.

    when you brought up how it was impossible for you to get something working on linux that i have used on linux and i remember the install process (5 easy steps at the time, now plug and go) you overplayed your hand with your "linux sucks" stick.

    "X can Suck" is valid for {Linux, Windows, Mac OS/X, Solaris, ....} - it depends on what you're doing, how good the operating system is at that and the competance of the person at the keyboard.

    I have that Card (and a PVR-500) sitting on my desk at home.. retired because i'm using the digital cable tuner now.

    here's the up to date page on Hauppauge products (great company)..

    Hauppauge has several employees who's full time job is linux driver dev.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @Ilya Ehrenburg said:

    @blakeyrat said:

    At the time I had a Linux expert working on it

    No.  I notice that your Linux and Apple contacts don't seem to be too competent generally. Makes me wonder.

    Not that Linux or Mac are anywhere near perfect, but they have far fewer problems in reality than you proclaim. Try finding a few competent people and reassess the non-Windows OSs, they're pretty usable on the whole.

    "Deflect! Deflect! This debate is going down in flames!"

    My experts are better than your experts,

    Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh



  • @Kazan said:

    when you brought up how it was impossible for you to get something working on linux that i have used on linux and i remember the install process (5 easy steps at the time, now plug and go) you overplayed your hand with your "linux sucks" stick.

    Even assuming it's acceptable for something on the compatible hardware list to have a 5-step install process (and it's not), at the time when I had the card (early 2006, IIRC) it did not work.

    Does it work now? Probably. Is that relevant to the discussion? Not at all.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Windows' driver ABI has changed TWICE. EVER. Once from the switch from Win32-based OSes to WinNT-based OSes, and again between XP and Vista. (And Vista could run XP drivers, BTW... it was a pain, but it could.)

    Um... No.

     ABI (or more properly DBI) is binary interface, that is "calling conventions". It had never changed for x86 architecture. New ABI was introduced to support IA64 and x64.

    DDI (kernel mode analog of API) haven't fundamentally changed for generic drivers. It changed with PNP introduction for PNP drivers, by defining more IRP major function codes for PNP and power support, in Windows 2000 (and was also supported in Windows 98).

    Then there are miniports for SCSI HBA. In early versions, one had to write a full SCSI port. Later, scsiport.sys was introduced, and IHVs only had to write a SCSI miniport. Starting with Win2003, storport.sys was introduced, which allowed for better performance. Most SCSIPORT drivers could simply be recompiled with minimal changes. But those built for scsiport.sys still work in Windows 7.

    NDIS miniport drivers has a few version changes. Vista has NDIS 6.0. I think miniports compiled for NDIS 5.0 (Windows 2000) will still load. NDIS 4.0 is not supported anymore.

    Audio driver architecture has changed a couple times. Video miniport architecture also changed in Vista. But that's about it.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @Kazan said:
    when you brought up how it was impossible for you to get something working on linux that i have used on linux and i remember the install process (5 easy steps at the time, now plug and go) you overplayed your hand with your "linux sucks" stick.

    Even assuming it's acceptable for something on the compatible hardware list to have a 5-step install process (and it's not), at the time when I had the card (early 2006, IIRC) it did not work.

    Does it work now? Probably. Is that relevant to the discussion? Not at all.

    i was using that EXACT CARD in my machine from around 2005.  Just fucking admit that your friend was a goddamn moron.  the brief install instructions for a Ceton InfiniTV 4 are a 6 steps.. and it is a Windows 7 only device ( http://www.cetoncorp.com/documents/InfiniTV%204%20Quick%20Installation%20Guide.pdf )

    If you want to criticize operating systems lob valid criticisms for the sake of fucking anti-fanboism.  stop hammering the grossly incorrect shtick about linux being more difficult to setup.  i've had more problems with 7MC than i ever did with mythTV (That weren't of my own creation from fucking around with using trunk versions)



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @Kazan said:
    when you brought up how it was impossible for you to get something working on linux that i have used on linux and i remember the install process (5 easy steps at the time, now plug and go) you overplayed your hand with your "linux sucks" stick.

    Even assuming it's acceptable for something on the compatible hardware list to have a 5-step install process (and it's not),

    Why not? If it works, it's compatible, even if installing is a pain. Yes, it's not user-friendly, and it should've had a warning, but back then, Linux was more "be a geek and do it yourself" than it is now, so they might not have considered a five-step process worth mentioning.

    Anyway, that's not harder than installing a Haskell graphics library on Windows in 2009 (last time I tried, Vista, I hear it's easier now) - which was just a "cabal install" on Linux then.

    (And no, I'm not claiming Linux is superior, just that you can have multi-step installs on Windows too. Both OSs have points where they suck while the other works fine there. Which one annoys you more often depends on what you do; for me [C, Haskell, LaTeX is about 80% of what I need] that has become Linux in the last years. Since mono has become usable, I've hardly ever booted into Windows, what for?)

    at the time when I had the card (early 2006, IIRC) it did not work.

    If I understand Kazan correctly, it did, your buddy just didn't know how to make it work. That's why I said you had no Linux expert working on it. If I misunderstood Kazan and it really didn't work on Linux back then, my apologies to your Linux buddy (not to your Apple buddy, claiming that OS X doesn't come with ftp ability built in pretty conclusively puts his competence level below expert).



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