Live. Messenger. 2011.
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@ender said:
@blakeyrat said:
I'll put it a slightly different way: those screenshots don't match any Windows theme I'm familiar with.
Have you considered that the screenshots were made on Linux?Nope. Were they?
@ender said:
@blakeyrat said:
This is fine, as far as it goes. What bugs me is when people call these programs "ported to Windows." This is not "ported to Windows." A program ported to Windows would use Windows-native controls (or get really, really close in approximating them, FF again), it would use OS-native file dialogs, it would store its files in the OS-standard file locations, it would support all the Windows-native accessibility features, etc, etc.
You do realize that there's only around 1 active developer working on the Windows port of GTK+, so it's more of a miracle that GTK+ programs work on Windows at all?And, so? I should thank him for giving me shitty software?
Bow down before the provider of shitty software! Bow down! Kiss his feet! Without him, you might never see those awful puke-inducing GTK+ file dialogs!
Look, if I were that one guy, and I didn't have the resources to do it fucking *right*, or even remotely close to right, I wouldn't do it at all. I would be ashamed to release software of the quality of the GTK+ Windows library.
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@Weng said:
- Inline images
Not tried Skype recently, then?
- Out-of-band file transfers
- Webcam
- Live audio
- Is made with a standard GUI framework with reasonable design standards
- Doesn't mangle text (especially pasted HTML - most clients seem to have not heard of escaping)
- Doesn't pretend to be some sort of social networking tool and spam statistics about your usage of the program to your FaceSpaceBook page.
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@blakeyrat said:
Noooo. Not even close.
Oh come the fuck on.
Yes, the options screen is criminally arbitrary and contains an option for every goddamn thing (e.g. the order of the protocols in your status bar? Really, Miranda?), but the UI on the whole is good. You're going to have to be more specific.
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@dhromed said:
Apparently gtalk = Jabber.
Actually, NO. gtalk does use XMPP, but the network is not connected to actual Jabber servers. However, transports are available.
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@PsychoCoder said:
Well some of us hate Google, I know I'm one of those, and would never install anything on my system that came from them, nor use their online services, because we dont want God and everyone knowing our information.
Ahhh, I'm not sick but I'm not well...
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@blakeyrat said:
Nope. Were they?
Let's see: unusual window decorations (if you're used to Windows), all window corners are round, program is available for several platforms. I'd say there's a good chance the screenshots weren't taken on Windows.@blakeyrat said:Look, if I were that one guy, and I didn't have the resources to do it fucking right, or even remotely close to right, I wouldn't do it at all.
Who's the guy that's holding a gun at your head, forcing you to use GTK+ progams on Windows? Because hey, it works for 95% of users, who are happy that they don't have to run a VM to use the program they want to. Of the remaining 5%, some simply use another solution, and some spend their time complaining how much GTK+ sucks on Windows without ever helping to improve the situation.
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@dhromed said:
@blakeyrat said:
Noooo. Not even close.
Oh come the fuck on.
Yes, the options screen is criminally arbitrary and contains an option for every goddamn thing (e.g. the order of the protocols in your status bar? Really, Miranda?), but the UI on the whole is good. You're going to have to be more specific.
Sorry, I didn't take notes. I'd have to reinstall it.
@dhromed said:
Because hey, it works for 95% of users, who are happy that they don't have to run a VM to use the program they want to. Of the remaining 5%, some simply use another solution, and some spend their time complaining how much GTK+ sucks on Windows without ever helping to improve the situation.
Ok, I don't have the open source mentality at all. I have the complete opposite of that. Where sayings like "release early, release often" just make me think, "won't I get an awful reputation for releasing buggy crap all the time?" So fair warning.
That said, why the hell would I do anything to help improve the situation? What would be in it for me? Why do you just blithely assume that this is something I should be working on, or that I'm somehow wrong for criticizing something I'm not working on? (Do you complain that movie reviewers didn't work on the movies they review?)
I've tried helping open source projects before. I filled-up bug trackers with dozens of valid bugs. Three years later, they were still unread. Eventually they were closed, either because the project moved bug trackers, or (even worse) they were simply marked as "too old." Did the person closing the bugs check to see if they were already fixed? Nope! He just rubber-banded 500 of them, and hit Close all at once. The only good experience I've had with an open source project was Firefox, who actually triaged my bug in a reasonable amount of time, and got it in the next version: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=563487
You are right, though, the vast majority of computer users don't care about the things I advocate. Bully for them; they can use GAIM and be perfectly happy. And that also means your one GTK+ developer probably has thousands of sycophants to worship him, and counteract all the mean words I'm typing here, so bully for him.
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@blakeyrat said:
Where sayings like "release early, release often" just make me think, "won't I get an awful reputation for releasing buggy crap all the time?" So fair warning.
There's a sweet spot between RE&RO and vaporware.
Real artists ship.
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Update: Microsoft turned off links in Live Messenger 2009 (the last sane version). They originally said links were turned off because of some vague trojan threat, but they've been off now for well over two weeks... I think it's a conspiracy to get people to switch to 2011. (Which still has links turned on, but only because Microsoft passes them through a redirect page for analytics-- I mean-- anti-malware purposes.)
I'm really building up the conspiracy theories here.
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Update: Links are still fucking off. Finally gave up and found a hacky workaround: http://www.generationmediagroup.com/blog/re-enable-links-in-messenger-09/
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Another quick update: my buddies and I have mostly switched to Steam IM at this point. It doesn't work at work (obviously), but at home at least I have a nickname and can send links.
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I didn't realise that native client users also got random message transmission errors with MSN -- I thought that was due to bugs in Pidgin.
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I spent enough time trying Raptr as an IM client to get really, really pissed at it for not letting me change their microscopic font to something, you know, actually readable. Edit: oh, I also found out that it's literally impossible to delete an AIM screenname after you've created one. Not too much of a shocker, since it is AOL, but... still.
I don't know why it's so hard to find a simple IM client with offline messages, file transfers, and a non-WTF UI. It's like cellphone carriers: you have 5 choices, and all of them suck shit.
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@blakeyrat said:
It's like cellphone carriers: you have 5 choices, and all of them suck shit.
Yeah in north america you guys get a really shitty choice in carriers and the whole locked phone thing is super lame. The buy a phone and then decide on a cheap pre-paid carrier, whoever offers the best deal at the time, buy a sim at 7-11 for $2 and you're set, none of the network locking or contract crap seems to be a lot better for the end consumer, i'm really hoping someone will start a company with that business model here in canada, they would pwn. This year alone i've had sims for australia, malaysia, nepal, taiwan and canada and the canadian one was by far the most bothersome and expensive to arrange by a wide margin.
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@blakeyrat said:
If you're an early adopter, you use ICQ or AIM.
Man. ICQ. I haven't even THOUGHT about ICQ in the last decade, much less had it installed, but no sooner did I read "ICQ" in your post than "47335259" popped into my head. That's disturbing.
Edit: closely followed by the foghorn sound. Dammit.
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@ThePants999 said:
Man. ICQ. I haven't even THOUGHT about ICQ in the last decade, much less had it installed, but no sooner did I read "ICQ" in your post than "47335259" popped into my head. That's disturbing.
48790409
:(
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@blakeyrat said:
I don't know why it's so hard to find a simple IM client with offline messages, file transfers, and a non-WTF UI.
So, Miranda.
Still not sure why you're throwing that one out.
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Probably because it's not a client, but a framework... you need to get all the protocol plugins, and then one of a bunch alternative UI plugins, as the standard one is butt-ugly, then spend an afternoon or two configuring the mess.
Heck, it annoyed *me* when I tried (in 2006, mind, but I don't quite believe it became better), and I'm of the tweak-and-customize-a-lot type.
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@dhromed said:
8 digits? newfags. I had a 6-digit that started with a 1. Unfortunately, I can't recall exactly what it was.@ThePants999 said:
Man. ICQ. I haven't even THOUGHT about ICQ in the last decade, much less had it installed, but no sooner did I read "ICQ" in your post than "47335259" popped into my head. That's disturbing.
48790409
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I can still remember my nine-digit ICQ UIN, but then, I do still use each of ICQ, AIM, Y!M and MSN, plus IRC, via Pidgin.
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@bannedfromcoding said:
Probably because it's not a client, but a framework
Irrelevant.
@bannedfromcoding said:
then one of a bunch alternative UI plugins, as the standard one is butt-ugly
That's your opinion. I find it looking just fine. The only thing I added was History++, which as far as I'm concerned should be included by default.
@bannedfromcoding said:
spend an afternoon or two configuring the mess.
Agreed on the configuration mess, but this hyperbole is outside the range of accepted hyperbole for long configurations. It's more like 10 minutes.
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@Daniel Beardsmore said:
I can still remember my nine-digit ICQ UIN
I started working in IT around 1996 when ICQ was all the rage - but the only person I knew who had ICQ was my colleague across the room. I only started to get into chatting when MSN was getting more prominent.
Of course, since then, I've many times chatted with a colleague sitting just across the room. But that's different.
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I work @ MS now.
i dug up the contacts for the Live Messenger team and emailed them this thread.
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lol. it's rather nice. i write code to break other code :D
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@b-redeker said:
Of course, since then, I've many times chatted with a colleague sitting just across the room.
My wife and I send each other e-mail. When we're both at home. It's the secret to a long marriage.
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@Kazan said:
I work @ MS now.
i dug up the contacts for the Live Messenger team and emailed them this thread.
Haha.
But I'm sure 99% of the problem comes from the marketing department; I'd be shocked if any of the developers are really behind these changes.
Hey if they seriously want to talk to me, send me a PM here. I can be polite and professional when not posting on a humor site, and I can give a *lot* more information about the bullet-listed complaints in the original post (including use-cases than 2011 breaks.)
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Even more updates:
Live Messenger's super-security link-screen feature? STOPPED. FUCKING. WORKING. at some point this weekend. Now whenever you click a link, you get this:
Yeah. As if I didn't hate this product enough before... fuck you, Microsoft. Just... fuck you.
The guys at Microsoft making great products like Kinect, Windows Phone 7, hell Windows 7, Office 2010-- basically these guys need to walk over to the Live team and kick their asses. Because, seriously Microsoft, just when you're pulling your reputation out of the gutter, you have to just flush it right back down.
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Haven't tried it out myself, but there is a userscript to automatically skip all that smartscreen stuff. From first glance, it looks like it should work even when the service itself is broken. (It pulls the original URL right from the smartscreen URL, not from the HTML.)
The script doesn't use any greasemonkey-specific APIs either, so there is a reasoneable chance it should work with Chrome, too.
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@PSWorx said:
Haven't tried it out myself, but there is a userscript to automatically skip all that smartscreen stuff. From first glance, it looks like it should work even when the service itself is broken. (It pulls the original URL right from the smartscreen URL, not from the HTML.)
The script doesn't use any greasemonkey-specific APIs either, so there is a reasoneable chance it should work with Chrome, too.
I refuse on principles to "fix" another company's software bugs. I instead just downgraded to Live Messenger 2009 on all my computers. I still had 2011 running, because I felt that I owed the thing a more fair shake than the 2-3 days I used it before starting this thread, but this was the last straw.
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@PsychoCoder said:
Well some of us hate Google, I know I'm one of those, and would never install anything on my system that came from them, nor use their online services, because we dont want God and everyone knowing our information. Google is crap with users data, it's been proven time and time again. In fact, I dont know of a single person I associate with that uses Google Talk (Hell I dont even know what Google Talk is), and I definitely dont know anyone who uses a @gmail account for anything even remotely professional
Thank God somebody else sees the light! I've been preaching this to my Chrome-loving, Gmail-using, Android phone-buying friends for years. Google is quickly becoming what Microsoft was in 1999, except this time nobody seems to care. It's quite scary how large they've become, and like sheep the world keeps using their spyware-driven products. Because you know well that if any other company did what Google is doing with user data (perhaps excluding Facebook) there would be a move to boycott their services among all conscious computer users and an antitrust trial already underway. If you read privacy policies (for whatever they're worth), you'll find that Bing protects your data better than Google. Though not perfect, it's better than Google. If you are looking for an alternative to Gmail, I must admit its hard to find one that matches its functionality and protects your privacy. I don't think Hotmail or Yahoo! Mail are much better, but the way I see it they can't be worse than Google. I use one provided with my web host, the owner of which I know personally. Finally, I suggest installing some sort of filter addon for your browser (which should not be Chrome, if you care about your privacy at all while web browsing). Be sure to filter doubleclick.net and any other Google properties, which are quite pervasive with the number of CDN domains they are using. It's tough, but it is possible to keep Google from invading your life and stealing your privacy. Now if only I could keep them from driving my street to take pictures of my house and steal Wi-Fi traffic...
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@blkballoon925 said:
@PsychoCoder said:
blub blub Google blub
lof lof lof Google lof lof
Note from staff:
If this thread turns into unfounded Googletrolling with fallacious statements like "X has been proven" and "I don't know anyone who X", it's a lock. Unless the core members troll back spectacularly, in which case I might sticky it.
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@blakeyrat said:
I refuse on principles to "fix" another company's software bugs.
I often use Stylish to fix some MacDesigner's Helvetica fetish, which looks like crap on Windows/Cleartype. Segoe UI FTW.
It depends on how much influence I have on the developers. Some software's devs are very accessible through forums and the like.
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@dhromed said:
29632899 ...@ThePants999 said:
Man. ICQ. I haven't even THOUGHT about ICQ in the last decade, much less had it installed, but no sooner did I read "ICQ" in your post than "47335259" popped into my head. That's disturbing.
48790409
:(
But seriously guys: Doesn't anyone of you use a telnet talker anymore?
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@dhromed said:
It depends on how much influence I have on the developers. Some software's devs are very accessible through forums and the like.
Yeah; I made an effort to contact the Live team, but it's pretty hopeless. They just have "support" forums, which appear to be community-run. The only other alternative is to post a wildly off-topic bug report on one of their blogs, but that's a pretty asshole move.
@RogerWilco said:
But seriously guys: Doesn't anyone of you use a telnet talker anymore?
I used to run a MUD, if that's what you mean.
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@dhromed said:
Unless the core members troll back spectacularly, in which case I might sticky it.
Who is suppose to be a core member? Someone like SpectateSwamp? Are they supposed to combine together into some kind giant mecha with replaceable spare parts.
I for one embrace the change
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@RogerWilco said:
But seriously guys: Doesn't anyone of you use a telnet talker anymore?
Bah! net send or winpopup are all you need.
On ICQ, I still use it. My # is 9 digits, but at least it starts with two ones.
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@RogerWilco said:
@dhromed said:
26266467@ThePants999 said:
29632899 ...Man. ICQ. I haven't even THOUGHT about ICQ in the last decade, much less had it installed, but no sooner did I read "ICQ" in your post than "47335259" popped into my head. That's disturbing.
48790409
:(
...and I haven't had ICQ installed on any machine for 10 years or so...
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Is this becoming the general post-your-icq number thread now? Awesome, my spam bots will be happy, should you ever decide to re-install it. Oh, wait, you probably won't. damn.
167537046.
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@PSWorx said:
Is this becoming the general post-your-icq number thread now? Awesome, my spam bots will be happy, should you ever decide to re-install it. Oh, wait, you probably won't. damn.
167537046.
Wait, you mean ICQ isn't a hobby where you watch Russian bots try to scam you, like crabs in an aquarium, while never receiving contact from real humans? AIM has gone that way too now, except the spam messages are in English instead of in Russian displayed as Latin-1. (You'd think with ICQ's love affair with UTF-16 that I'd receive actual Cyrillic, but no.) My UIN is already in my forum profile anyway, if anyone is daft enough to go looking for it.
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@blkballoon925 said:
I came home just the other day and a Google Street-View car was parked in my driveway. I caught them kicking my dog. Yes, Google is TEH EVIL!!!@PsychoCoder said:
blub blub Google blub
lof lof lof Google lof lof
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@El_Heffe said:
@blkballoon925 said:
I came home just the other day and a Google Street-View car was parked in my driveway. I caught them kicking my dog. Yes, Google is TEH EVIL!!!@PsychoCoder said:
blub blub Google blub
lof lof lof Google lof lof
Google stole 1mb of data from my unsecured wireless connection! Burn them alive!
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@HighlyPaidContractor said:
@El_Heffe said:
@blkballoon925 said:
I came home just the other day and a Google Street-View car was parked in my driveway. I caught them kicking my dog. Yes, Google is TEH EVIL!!!@PsychoCoder said:
blub blub Google blub
lof lof lof Google lof lof
Google stole 1mb of data from my unsecured wireless connection! Burn them alive!
Google removed the "http://" from my ADDRESS BAR!!!
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@blakeyrat said:
Google removed the "http://" from my ADDRESS BAR!!!
Yes. And that's still wrong. I mean, look at your screenshot. See how ugly that looks?
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@blakeyrat said:
@HighlyPaidContractor said:
@El_Heffe said:
@blkballoon925 said:
I came home just the other day and a Google Street-View car was parked in my driveway. I caught them kicking my dog. Yes, Google is TEH EVIL!!!@PsychoCoder said:
blub blub Google blub
lof lof lof Google lof lof
Google stole 1mb of data from my unsecured wireless connection! Burn them alive!
Google removed the "http://" from my ADDRESS BAR!!!
Google drank the last of my milk and put the empty carton back in the fridge!!!
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@blakeyrat said:
@RogerWilco said:
A telnet talker is similar. It's like a MUD without mobs, items, classes etc. It usually has specific"talker" functionality instead, like the ability to put up a private hut/tent where only invited people can join the conversation.But seriously guys: Doesn't anyone of you use a telnet talker anymore?
I used to run a MUD, if that's what you mean.
A group of friends of mine used to run one until about a year ago.
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@PSWorx said:
167537046.
Filed under: Yes that number starts with 1. Admit you're jealous. I know you are.
Mine starts with a 9. I clearly win.
