The EULA of freedom

[dhromed]

@blakeyrat said:

@dhromed said:

I think controllers are shit, but nobody listens to me.

It's unpossible that they just disagree with you? Or, like me, thinks your conflating "games" with "first person shooter and RTS games"?

 

Oh, I was just being facetious, jesting and jocular as I am wont to do.

Main gripe: t's really had to stably press buttons when the are buttons all around and human beings tend to grab things between fingers and thumb, which invariable means pressing two or three buttons at the same time. So, because I had to keep my fingers away, I had a hard time holding on to it in a non-cramped fashion.

I attempted to play GoW with a controller and  kept running into walls. I suppose I could learn to use it given more practice, but I can get that practice because I don't own a console, nor do any of my friends.

I played a racing game, which has simpler controls, and I loved it, but the controller gave me cramps.

[The_Assimilator]

@bannedfromcoding said:

And when it hangs on update... kill the process, delete ClientRegistry.blob, retry?

You forgot the last step: "Repeat thirty times AND IT STILL DOESN'T FUCKING WORK, hence causing you to become a luddite and wish that the Steam developers would die of Ebola".

Stardock's Impulse Now system does the same thing as Steam, except it actually works. Why can't the industry use that instead of the shit that Valve peddles?

[derula]

@The_Assimilator said:

Stardock's Impulse Now system does the same thing as Steam, except it actually works. Why can't the industry use that instead of the shit that Valve peddles?

Because Stardock has a reputation for making awfully horrible software like WindowBlinds, while Valve is known for Half Life.

[Tyler]

 @Zecc said:

@TheCPUWizard said:

No, the Best ever was:

It's not as clever, but what about the WTFPL?

I'm incorporating a bit of code under this license into the next release of the software I'm working on. I'm curious what the reaction of the legal department is going to be when I include that on my next listing of open-source software in our product.

[blakeyrat]

@dhromed said:

Main gripe: t's really had to stably press buttons when the are buttons all around and human beings tend to grab things between fingers and thumb, which invariable means pressing two or three buttons at the same time. So, because I had to keep my fingers away, I had a hard time holding on to it in a non-cramped fashion.

What the holy crap controller are you using?

You can't judge all controllers on this:

(hotlinked)

Turns out, Nintendo screwed up and let a 3-handed Jupiterian design it, it's not fit for human beings.

@dhromed said:

I attempted to play GoW with a controller and  kept running into walls. I suppose I could learn to use it given more practice, but I can get that practice because I don't own a console, nor do any of my friends.

Wait, you can't hold an Xbox 360 controller?!!? That's close to the best designed controller ever made. Were you just holding it by the cord and striking it against the edge of the coffeetable?

And wait, what kind of friends do you have? This is a weird scenario you're describing... the average person has a dozen friends with consoles and zero who play PC games. How do you play Guitar Hero? Or Madden?

[blakeyrat]

@The_Assimilator said:

You forgot the last step: "Repeat thirty times AND IT STILL DOESN'T FUCKING WORK, hence causing you to become a luddite and wish that the Steam developers would die of Ebola".

Stardock's Impulse Now system does the same thing as Steam, except it actually works. Why can't the industry use that instead of the shit that Valve peddles?

1. They were too slow
   
   2) They didn't have a marquee game like HL2 to use to force Impulse down people's throats. (Remember how much nobody wanted Steam when HL2 came out?) Believe me, people never voluntarily installed it.

Now the problem is network effects. Since everybody's on Steam, everybody's on Steam. Also Steam gets good deals from publishers, because everybody's on Steam.

[billhead]

@The_Assimilator said:

Stardock's Impulse Now system does the same thing as Steam, except it actually works. Why can't the industry use that instead of the shit that Valve peddles?

My experience is the exact opposite.
No problems with Steam, but with Impulse Now it refused to acknowledge the fact that I purchased Braid and when I requested my serial number to be email to me I got a list of 50+ serials for demos and stuff that I never heard of before.

[davedavenotdavemaybe]

I can't believe you're all making the elementary mistake of paying for software before you check it is satisfactory. What else is Piratebay for? Download, install, play, like, buy. Don't let them tell you otherwise :)

[dhromed]

@blakeyrat said:

(Remember how much nobody wanted Steam when HL2 came out?) Believe me, people never voluntarily installed it.

 

+1

Steam reminds me of Adobe Bridge. It kind of gets the job done in a complete manner, but it's still a really slow fat bloke sitting in your living room.

[dhromed]

@blakeyrat said:

Wait, you can't hold an Xbox 360 controller?!!? That's close to the best designed controller ever made. Were you just holding it by the cord and striking it against the edge of the coffeetable?

 

I am thin. The controller does not firmly slot into the [puffy palm fat rolls | große muskulierte händer*] common to many gamers. Maybe that's the problem. In any case, I don't get enough exposure to adapt to holding such a thing.

The racing game, I just looked up, was Burnout Revenge, and it game me cramps. Fun game, though.

@blakeyrat said:

And wait, what kind of friends do you have? This is a weird scenario you're describing... the average person has a dozen friends with consoles and zero who play PC games. How do you play Guitar Hero? Or Madden?

Why the fuck would I want to play guitar hero?

Madden? A sports game? Are you fucking kidding me? I hate sports!

 

*) I never paid attention to -e -er -es -en -etc -waev in German class.

[blakeyrat]

@dhromed said:

I am thin. The controller does not firmly slot into the [puffy palm fat rolls | große muskulierte händer*] common to many gamers. Maybe that's the problem. In any case, I don't get enough exposure to adapt to holding such a thing.

Until you came along, I didn't know it was possible for someone to grab a Xbox 360 controller and somehow grip it wrong.

I don't see what "puffy palm fat rolls" has anything to do with anything, except possibly offensive stereotyping. The controller is designed so that human beings can hold it comfortably, not any particular subset of human beings.

@dhromed said:

Why the fuck would I want to play guitar hero?

Gee, I dunno. Maybe because it's fun to get a few friends together and make shitty music while drinking beer?

@dhromed said:

Madden? A sports game? Are you fucking kidding me? I hate sports!

I'm not a fan of football either, but again, it's a game you can get out and almost everybody knows how to play and have fun. (FPSes generally alienate some people.)

[dhromed]

@blakeyrat said:

Until you came along, I didn't know it was possible for someone to grab a Xbox 360 controller and somehow grip it wrong.

 

Well, I am the evolutionary next step, so it's conceivable.

For some reason I don't remember it being an xbox controller (from the looks of the images when googlin') though it was an xbox. It was dark when I had my last console session almost a year ago, so my user experience details are kind of hazy.

I just tested it with my amp's remote control (hardly a proper experiment, but maybe it'll help), and find that pressing with my thumb also means grabbing more tightly with my index finger as counterforce. On controllers, one's index is used for L/R  and triggers. So perhaps I was constantly trying to not flex my index finger and was thus unable to thumb down those top buttons with the required passion and authority. You can see how that's a very unsatisfying situation.

@blakeyrat said:

get a few friends together

Actually, I never play games with friends. :) Previous experiments have been uninspiring, though I hasten to add that the total breadth of multiplayer varieties has not been fully sampled.

[derula]

@dhromed said:

@blakeyrat said:

get a few friends together

Actually, I never play games with friends. :) Previous experiments have been uninspiring, though I hasten to add that the total breadth of multiplayer varieties has not been fully sampled. I don't have any :)

FTFY.

[blakeyrat]

@dhromed said:

@blakeyrat said:

Until you came along, I didn't know it was possible for someone to grab a Xbox 360 controller and somehow grip it wrong.

 

Well, I am the evolutionary next step, so it's conceivable.

For some reason I don't remember it being an xbox controller (from the looks of the images when googlin') though it was an xbox. It was dark when I had my last console session almost a year ago, so my user experience details are kind of hazy.

Well, it could have been a third-party Xbox controller, but if you were playing Gears of War it pretty much had to be an Xbox. Seeing as it was published by Microsoft.

Also, evolution doesn't work that way.

@dhromed said:

I just tested it with my amp's remote control (hardly a proper experiment, but maybe it'll help), and find that pressing with my thumb also means grabbing more tightly with my index finger as counterforce. On controllers, one's index is used for L/R  and triggers. So perhaps I was constantly trying to not flex my index finger and was thus unable to thumb down those top buttons with the required passion and authority. You can see how that's a very unsatisfying situation.

Congratulations, you made me dig my Xbox controller out to look at it.

The weight of the controller rests on your middle/ring/pinky fingers, leaving your index fingers free to work L/R and the triggers and your thumbs free reign over the top buttons. If you're putting any pressure on anything anywhere, you're doing it wrong... gravity is all the pressure you need to keep the controller under your fingers. Flexing your index finger should have been a non-issue, as your index finger isn't involved in the actual supporting work at all.

I've seen some people hold it with their index on L/R, their middle fingers on the triggers, and the weight resting on the ring and pinky fingers, but that's really awkward for me-- and well-designed games don't ever require you hit L and left trigger at the same time, anyway. Those might just be people who got used to the jupiterian N64 controller.

@dhromed said:

@blakeyrat said:

get a few friends together

Actually, I never play games with friends. :) Previous experiments have been uninspiring, though I hasten to add that the total breadth of multiplayer varieties has not been fully sampled.

Sad.

Interesting and utterly useless trivia: on the original Xbox controller, every button was analog except White, Black, Back, Start. Not that anybody is physically able to hold A 1/3rd of the way down, but it you had that superhuman level of muscle control, the Xbox could handle it. I always thought that was weird.

[stratos]

@dhromed said:

and find that pressing with my thumb also means grabbing more tightly with my index finger as counterforce.

 

WTH? you developed webbed fingers or something with your next stage of evolution? 

[dhromed]

@blakeyrat said:

Congratulations, you made me dig my Xbox controller out to look at it.

 

Well, that's science, isn't it!

@blakeyrat said:

I've seen some people hold it with their index on L/R, their middle fingers on the triggers, and the weight resting on the ring and pinky fingers, but that's really awkward for me-- and well-designed games don't ever require you hit L and left trigger at the same time, anyway.

 

That musta been it. I will give it some thought when I hold a controller in the future, somewhere around 2011.

@blakeyrat said:

Not that anybody is physically able to hold A 1/3rd of the way down, but it you had that superhuman level of muscle control, the Xbox could handle it. I always thought that was weird.

For shooting a little.

[dhromed]

@stratos said:

WTH? you developed webbed fingers or something with your next stage of evolution? 

 

Prehensile glans.

[belgariontheking]

REZ MONKEY WARNING@The_Assimilator said:

Bonus story: my Steam install has been stuck at "Updating Steam platform" for over a week now.

I solved this by telling the Steam client to connect to Cambodia for updates.  It's close enough to the same speed, it's the same content, and it's not as clogged as the American tubes.

You may now get back to reading your unrezzed threads.

[Sir_Twist]

@blakeyrat said:

Interesting and utterly useless trivia: on the original Xbox controller, every button was analog except White, Black, Back, Start. Not that anybody is physically able to hold A 1/3rd of the way down, but it you had that superhuman level of muscle control, the Xbox could handle it. I always thought that was weird.

 

I don't think that's what it was for. You could, however detect the velocity at which the button was pressed by detecting the rate of change, and/or how hard it was pressed by the maximum value attained. For example, a sniper rifle or pistol might be more accurate if you pressed the button slowly than if you mashed it down (squeezing the trigger versus jerking the trigger). I don't know if any games actually used this, however.

[blakeyrat]

@Sir Twist said:

@blakeyrat said:

Interesting and utterly useless trivia: on the original Xbox controller, every button was analog except White, Black, Back, Start. Not that anybody is physically able to hold A 1/3rd of the way down, but it you had that superhuman level of muscle control, the Xbox could handle it. I always thought that was weird.

 

I don't think that's what it was for. You could, however detect the velocity at which the button was pressed by detecting the rate of change, and/or how hard it was pressed by the maximum value attained. For example, a sniper rifle or pistol might be more accurate if you pressed the button slowly than if you mashed it down (squeezing the trigger versus jerking the trigger). I don't know if any games actually used this, however.

I'm talking about the face buttons, using A as the example. Obviously you need analog on the triggers, for racing games if nothing else.

If your game used the face buttons for firing a sniper rifle, and tried to determine accuracy based on how quickly it was pressed-- well, good luck with that, I suppose. I highly doubt it would work, or if it did it would be so subtle nobody would notice the effect.

[Lingerance]

@Sir Twist said:

I don't think that's what it was for. You could, however detect the velocity at which the button was pressed by detecting the rate of change, and/or how hard it was pressed by the maximum value attained. For example, a sniper rifle or pistol might be more accurate if you pressed the button slowly than if you mashed it down (squeezing the trigger versus jerking the trigger). I don't know if any games actually used this, however.

Dead or Alive: Extreme Beach Volleyball did.

[blakeyrat]

@Lingerance said:

@Sir Twist said:

I don't think that's what it was for. You could, however detect the velocity at which the button was pressed by detecting the rate of change, and/or how hard it was pressed by the maximum value attained. For example, a sniper rifle or pistol might be more accurate if you pressed the button slowly than if you mashed it down (squeezing the trigger versus jerking the trigger). I don't know if any games actually used this, however.

Dead or Alive: Extreme Beach Volleyball did.

Well, you win this argument because nobody else is going to admit to buying that.

[stratos]

@blakeyrat said:

@Lingerance said:

@Sir Twist said:

I don't think that's what it was for. You could, however detect the velocity at which the button was pressed by detecting the rate of change, and/or how hard it was pressed by the maximum value attained. For example, a sniper rifle or pistol might be more accurate if you pressed the button slowly than if you mashed it down (squeezing the trigger versus jerking the trigger). I don't know if any games actually used this, however.

Dead or Alive: Extreme Beach Volleyball did.

Well, you win this argument because nobody else is going to admit to buying that.

 

Why? are you allergic to skinny half naked chicks playing beach games?

[belgariontheking]

@Lingerance said:

Dead or Alive: Extreme Beach Volleyball did.

Now that I think of it, GTAIII did.  When you were in a car, you could push down halfway and it would be like pushing down halfway on the gas pedal.  I only discovered this when I turned the radio off (and could hear the car not revving as high) and was just idly driving around.  There's really no reason not to floor it all the time but they have the ability not to.

[Xyro]

@stratos said:

@blakeyrat said:

@Lingerance said:

Dead or Alive: Extreme Beach Volleyball did.

Well, you win this argument because nobody else is going to admit to buying that.

Why? are you allergic to skinny half naked chicks playing beach games?

What? Where? Who said anything about skinny half-naked chicks playing beach games?  Lingerance was talking about a questionable video game set in the heart of uncanny valley made for poor gamers who will never feel the touch of a woman.

[blakeyrat]

@belgariontheking said:

@Lingerance said:

Dead or Alive: Extreme Beach Volleyball did.

Now that I think of it, GTAIII did.  When you were in a car, you could push down halfway and it would be like pushing down halfway on the gas pedal.  I only discovered this when I turned the radio off (and could hear the car not revving as high) and was just idly driving around.  There's really no reason not to floor it all the time but they have the ability not to.

Well the trigger is analog, der. All driving games do that.

The question is whether any games use the analog feature of the face buttons. (A, B, X, Y.)

[dhromed]

@blakeyrat said:

Well the trigger is analog, der. All driving games do that.

 

That is one thing I would like on a PC. On a keyboard, it's floor or nothing, so to go slowly, you hav'ta go vrm vrm vrm vrm vrm like it's the first time you ever drive a car.

[blakeyrat]

@Xyro said:

@stratos said:

@blakeyrat said:

@Lingerance said:

Dead or Alive: Extreme Beach Volleyball did.

Well, you win this argument because nobody else is going to admit to buying that.

Why? are you allergic to skinny half naked chicks playing beach games?

What? Where? Who said anything about skinny half-naked chicks playing beach games?  Lingerance was talking about a questionable video game set in the heart of uncanny valley made for poor gamers who will never feel the touch of a woman.

Even economically it makes no sense. If you want to wack-off to DoA girls (and hey whatever it's your life) just put the original game in Demo mode, pick two girls, and go at it. And then when you're done, you've not only saved $60, but you have a decent fighting game to play.

Or buy Soul Calibur IV, which lets you dress-up silicon-based virtual girls and also is a decent fighting game, so you get 2-for-1 there. Plus Yoda.

[blakeyrat]

@dhromed said:

@blakeyrat said:

Well the trigger is analog, der. All driving games do that.

 

That is one thing I would like on a PC. On a keyboard, it's floor or nothing, so to go slowly, you hav'ta go vrm vrm vrm vrm vrm like it's the first time you ever drive a car.

You could just plug an Xbox controller into your PC, you know.

[dhromed]

@blakeyrat said:

You could just plug an Xbox controller into your PC, you know.

 

The console world is such unmapped territory for me that I did not know this was possible.

[blakeyrat]

@dhromed said:

@blakeyrat said:

You could just plug an Xbox controller into your PC, you know.

 

The console world is such unmapped territory for me that I did not know this was possible.

I know what you mean. Not a lot of devices support that standard... what's it called? USB? It's pretty rare.

But Xbox controller aside, what about the 3 dozen other PC game controllers out there? Some are joysticks, yes, but even eliminating those there have to be a dozen gamepads at least. Hell, Logitech alone makes like 10 of them: http://www.logitech.com/en-us/gaming/controllers (I just name-drop the Xbox controller because you don't need funky drivers, and most games have the buttons pre-mapped.)

In short, whatcha talkin' 'bout, Willis? It never occurred to you to look for PC-compatible gamepads? You never walked into a Staples or Best Buy and took a look at the keyboard aisle?

[Lingerance]

@blakeyrat said:

But Xbox controller aside, what about the 3 dozen other PC game controllers out there? Some are joysticks, yes, but even eliminating those there have to be a dozen gamepads at least. Hell, Logitech alone makes like 10 of them: http://www.logitech.com/en-us/gaming/controllers (I just name-drop the Xbox controller because you don't need funky drivers, and most games have the buttons pre-mapped.)

In short, whatcha talkin' 'bout, Willis? It never occurred to you to look for PC-compatible gamepads? You never walked into a Staples or Best Buy and took a look at the keyboard aisle?

PS3 controllers require nothing special to work when tethered.

[dhromed]

@blakeyrat said:

It never occurred to you to look for PC-compatible gamepads?

 

Never. Before that faithful gamer night I went to last year, I had never even seen an XBox 360 or a Wii, other than pictures. Other consoles I have never seen in real life, or perhaps so fleetingly I do not remember them:

- XBox (1)
- PS2 (that's the one that looks like a radiator, right?)
- PS3 (I'm not even 100% positive what it looks like)
- Game Cube
- DreamCast

The last joystick I bought and used was when Descent II was a modern game. It was a crappy joystick, though. But I hate that kind of bulky, clunky stuff anyway. Modern game controllers are a lot better.

I did play a PSP for five minutes while on a train with some friends, but on the whole, I've been pretty much isolated from the whole console scene.

So, no, it never occurred to me to look for gamepads, because everyone I know who plays games and see regularly uses a PC. I didn't even know Logitech made controllers, just like I never knew motorcycle builder Yamaha made audio equipment until I got my first bass last month. "Yamaha? Lol wut? They make *guitars*?"

@blakeyrat said:

You never walked into a Staples or Best Buy and took a look at the keyboard aisle?

Why would I look at a keyboard aisle at all ever? The one I have had for 5+ years works just fine. It has all the necessary keys. I bought it along with a DVD drive at my local PC shop, where I said, "Yo, I need some no-frills shit," and the guy was all, "Here," and I was all, "Sweet. Here's some of my money," and he was all, "Thank you, come again."

I have, however, been thinking about something like the Cyber Snipa, which is an extra bit of keyboard that duplicates the general WASD area, but with proper egonomics for gamers. Now that shit sounds handy to me.

 

Conversely, I'd like to posit that it's as though it never occurred to you that the PC may be a succesful and satisfying gaming platform for many, many people.

[belgariontheking]

@blakeyrat said:

@belgariontheking said:

@Lingerance said:

Dead or Alive: Extreme Beach Volleyball did.

Now that I think of it, GTAIII did.  When you were in a car, you could push down halfway and it would be like pushing down halfway on the gas pedal.  I only discovered this when I turned the radio off (and could hear the car not revving as high) and was just idly driving around.  There's really no reason not to floor it all the time but they have the ability not to.

Well the trigger is analog, der. All driving games do that.

The question is whether any games use the analog feature of the face buttons. (A, B, X, Y.)

I should have specified.  It was GTAIII on the PS2.  You were talking about analog buttons and all the buttons on the ps2 were pressure sensitive.  I doubt they were analog.  They probably just had three states: off, half press and full press.

[blakeyrat]

@Lingerance said:

@blakeyrat said:

But Xbox controller aside, what about the 3 dozen other PC game controllers out there? Some are joysticks, yes, but even eliminating those there have to be a dozen gamepads at least. Hell, Logitech alone makes like 10 of them: http://www.logitech.com/en-us/gaming/controllers (I just name-drop the Xbox controller because you don't need funky drivers, and most games have the buttons pre-mapped.)

In short, whatcha talkin' 'bout, Willis? It never occurred to you to look for PC-compatible gamepads? You never walked into a Staples or Best Buy and took a look at the keyboard aisle?

PS3 controllers require nothing special to work when tethered.

Yes, but if you game, you have a desktop. If you have a desktop, it likely does not have Bluetooth. The Xbox controller works on all PCs. And probably Macs.

[dhromed]

I have to admit that from my estimations, Fallout 3 may very well control better with a controller than with KB+mouse. 

Especially because many keys cannot be customized* **, such as Take All & Exit, Repair etc.

 

 

 

 *) :(((((((

**) I've scoured the interwebs already, but if you have tips, PLEASE donate some in my hat.

[blakeyrat]

Oh it's on now.

@dhromed said:

@blakeyrat said:

It never occurred to you to look for PC-compatible gamepads?

 

Never. Before that faithful gamer night I went to last year, I had never even seen an XBox 360 or a Wii, other than pictures. Other consoles I have never seen in real life, or perhaps so fleetingly I do not remember them:

- XBox (1)
- PS2 (that's the one that looks like a radiator, right?)
- PS3 (I'm not even 100% positive what it looks like)
- Game Cube
- DreamCast

I never played a console inbetween the Genesis and the original Xbox. Yet somehow, miraculously, I actually knew that PC gamepads existed...

Seriously, what the hell does familiarity with consoles have anything to do with knowing that PC gamepads exist? You're trying to draw this parallel here, and I just don't get the connection at all.

And what makes it even more mind-boggling is this:

@dhromed said:

The last joystick I bought and used was when Descent II was a modern game. It was a crappy joystick, though. But I hate that kind of bulky, clunky stuff anyway. Modern game controllers are a lot better.

You know that joysticks exist! How did you get the joystick? Did it teleport into your hand? You must have at some point, while shopping for this joystick, have seen a gamepad available for PC. What store sells (sold) joysticks without racks of gamepads right next to them?

@dhromed said:

So, no, it never occurred to me to look for gamepads, because everyone I know who plays games and see regularly uses a PC.

Ok, once again, playing games on a PC and owning a gamepad are not mutually-exclusive! Not even slightly.

@dhromed said:

I didn't even know Logitech made controllers, just like I never knew motorcycle builder Yamaha made audio equipment until I got my first bass last month. "Yamaha? Lol wut? They make guitars?"

Yamaha isn't a "motorcycle builder", they're the typical Japanese super-conglomerate that makes everything. Like Mitsubishi that makes everything from TVs to fighter jets.

That aside, there are only like 4 brands in musical instruments, and you've never seen Yamaha before? Not a Yahama trumpet or trombone or piano or anything? They're HUGE in musical instruments. Are you a hermit?

@dhromed said:

Conversely, I'd like to posit that it's as though it never occurred to you that the PC may be a succesful and satisfying gaming platform for many, many people.

Dude. I love PC games. I'm the rarest of gamers: I was on the Mac in time to get the Marathon trilogy, then moved to PC just in time to get Unreal Tournament and Tribes. You won't find many more well-rounded PC gamers than me, ok? (Helll, finding one who's played Marathon at all is a challenge, sadly.) I have something like 200 games on Steam right now, another 150+ in my CD sleeves. I have 2 level 80s and a level 70 in WOW. I've played EVE Online, I've played Everquest II, I've played Age of Conan, I've played freakin' Istaria, Tabula Rasa, WWII Online, Earth and Beyond. I've won 5 of the 8 Wizardry games, 3 of the Might and Magic (RPG) games, and I even slogged through the buggy-ass Wizards and Warriors until a bug stopped me cold. I've played Rise of Nations, all the Blizzard RTS games (except SC2, but including massive amounts of Warcraft II over modem & AOL), the Myth series, the Age of XXX series, Civilization, Stars!, Homeworld and Homeworld 2. I've played more single-player FPS games than I can even remember. I've played all the Lucas Arts adventure games, and won most of them. I won Myst before it was even ported to Windows.

So yeah, I'm kind of a PC gamer.

I just happen to *also* play Xbox, because:
1) I finally got pissed at EA, and decided I won't buy any more EA games. That cuts out a *huge* swatch of PC games, sadly.
2) I got pissed at PC games that simply do not fucking work.
3) You can buy Xbox games that cover genres PC games never bother with, i.e. Guitar Hero, Dance Dance Revolution, most sports games.

[Guest]

@blakeyrat said:

And what makes it even more mind-boggling is this:

@dhromed said:

The last joystick I bought and used was when Descent II was a modern game. It was a crappy joystick, though. But I hate that kind of bulky, clunky stuff anyway. Modern game controllers are a lot better.

You know that joysticks exist! How did you get the joystick? Did it teleport into your hand? You must have at some point, while shopping for this joystick, have seen a gamepad available for PC.

dhromed only really looks at things in phallic shape.

@blakeyrat said:

That aside, there are only like 4 brands in musical instruments, and
you've never seen Yamaha before? Not a Yahama trumpet or trombone or
piano or anything? They're HUGE in musical instruments. Are you a
hermit?

Keyboards, sure. Even non-electronic pianos. But I didn't know they made guitars.

@blakeyrat said:

I've played all the Lucas Arts adventure games, and won most of them. I won Myst before it was even ported to Windows.

That makes you rise in my consideration (though I would say "finish an adventure game", rather than "win an adventure game", but I guess that could be a cultural thing).

[ender]

@belgariontheking said:

It was GTAIII on the PS2.  You were talking about analog buttons and all the buttons on the ps2 were pressure sensitive.  I doubt they were analog.  They probably just had three states: off, half press and full press.

They're fully analog - I bought one of those cheap chinese adaptors that lets me connect my PS2 joypad to USB, and it's drivers let you map two buttons (any two) to axes (which nicely show how hard you're mashing those buttons in). Not very useful, but it's there.

[Lingerance]

@blakeyrat said:

Yes, but if you game, you have a desktop. If you have a desktop, it likely does not have Bluetooth. The Xbox controller works on all PCs. And probably Macs.

Those require special hardware or drivers to work though. PS3 controllers only need special drivers when used wirelessly, and that's only to do the BT pairing because it's done over USB. Otherwise they work exactly like any other USB gamepad does.

[blakeyrat]

@Lingerance said:

@blakeyrat said:

Yes, but if you game, you have a desktop. If you have a desktop, it likely does not have Bluetooth. The Xbox controller works on all PCs. And probably Macs.

Those require special hardware or drivers to work though.

I won't talk about PS3 controllers, because I don't know anything about them, but Xbox controllers only require special drivers if you define "special" as "ships with the OS by default."

You don't need special hardware unless you want to use a wireless Xbox controller with your PC, in which case you need the wireless receiver. And then you still don't need special drivers.

The wired controllers just work. (Note: the play-and-charge USB cable isn't the same thing as a wired controller-- it only transmits power through the USB, not the signal. That's admittedly kind of confusing.)

[Someone_You_Know]

@blakeyrat said:

The wired controllers just work.

 

Yup, even the guitars. I plugged an Xbox 360 Guitar Hero controller into my Windows 7 machine, and it worked fine.

Trying to play Freespace 2 with it was an unmitigated disaster, but I can't really blame the drivers for that.

[Lingerance]

@blakeyrat said:

I won't talk about PS3 controllers, because I don't know anything about them, but Xbox controllers only require special drivers if you define "special" as "ships with the OS by default."

They still require special hardware though.
@blakeyrat said:

You don't need special hardware unless you want to use a wireless Xbox controller with your PC, in which case you need the wireless receiver. And then you still don't need special drivers.

That's what we've been discussing... using console controllers on a PC.
@blakeyrat said:

The wired controllers just work. (Note: the play-and-charge USB cable isn't the same thing as a wired controller-- it only transmits power through the USB, not the signal. That's admittedly kind of confusing.)

PS3 controllers don't have that distinction. Out of box and with a common as fuck USB cable (which you get with a PS3 anyways) it'll work.

[blakeyrat]

@Lingerance said:

@blakeyrat said:

I won't talk about PS3 controllers, because I don't know anything about them, but Xbox controllers only require special drivers if you define "special" as "ships with the OS by default."

They still require special hardware though.

Sigh.

Ok, let's try this again:

USB Xbox controllers: require no special hardware
Wireless Xbox controllers: require "special" receiver hardware, about $20

So, at best, a subset of Xbox controllers require special hardware. But the cheapest ones do not.

@Lingerance said:

@blakeyrat said:

The wired controllers just work. (Note: the play-and-charge USB cable isn't the same thing as a wired controller-- it only transmits power through the USB, not the signal. That's admittedly kind of confusing.)

PS3 controllers don't have that distinction. Out of box and with a common as fuck USB cable (which you get with a PS3 anyways) it'll work.

Ok, you get a cookie. Since you mentioned pairing, and since I know PS3 controllers are bluetooth, I didn't realize they also came with a USB cable. Sue me.

But my other point, that a crapload of PC games alway work with the Xbox controller without having to remap any buttons, still applies. Plus it has better ergonomics, IMO. And the face buttons have actual letters on them, so you don't have to scream to your friend "hit circle box triangle circle!" when trying to beat a boss and sound like an idiot.

[dhromed]

 

@blakeyrat said:

Seriously, what the hell does familiarity with consoles have anything to do with knowing that PC gamepads exist? You're trying to draw this parallel here, and I just don't get the connection at all.

[...] Ok, once again, playing games on a PC and owning a gamepad are not mutually-exclusive! Not even slightly.

 

Consoles are exclusively controlled with pads. PCs are nearly exclusively controlled with keyboard and mouse.

So yeah, no consoles leads to no gamepads pretty easily. Last gamepad I knew of for a PC was that odd Gravis thing back in the DOS era. After that, pads've been the exclusive domain of consoles as far as I've experienced it. Apparently I was wrong, but I've never seen one attached to a PC.

@blakeyrat said:

You know that joysticks exist!

Joysticks have always been far more prevalent than PC gamepads and a staple of desktop computer gamers. There's a very good reason lots of generic game icons in GUIs used to be joysticks. Nearly everybody  with a computer and kids had one.

I hated them.

@blakeyrat said:

How did you get the joystick? Did it teleport into your hand?

I bought it somewhere, but I don't remember much anymore. It was quite some years ago.

@blakeyrat said:

You must have at some point, while shopping for this joystick, have seen a gamepad available for PC.

Nah.

Maybe I had a mental block on gamepads. Maybe they didn't compute because I've always found them to suck.  I played a rare game of Nintendo at a buddy's house, and those square fuckers just sucked.

I played a few PS1 games at another friend's house. It aways felt awkward.

Somehow, I loved the gameboy. I should reflect on that, one day.

@blakeyrat said:

Yamaha isn't a "motorcycle builder", they're the typical Japanese super-conglomerate that makes everything.

I had no idea. They're pretty invisible. I don't know of any products they make that I deal with on a regular basis. Even the motorcycles I don't see often, and I've never seen a bike an consciously knew it was a Yamaha. I just knew Yamaha bikes existed since I was a wee laddy because I watched TV and read books and the Adults around my dad sometimes mentioned them, as they were Adults and Knew More.

@blakeyrat said:

Like Mitsubishi that makes everything from TVs to fighter jets.

As luck would have it, a work project of mine in the recent past dealt with a management website of construction machinery. One brand was Hitachi. I was so suprised! You never see their shit on construction sites around here. It's all CAT and Caterpillar and Liebherr.

@blakeyrat said:

They're HUGE in musical instruments. Are you a hermit?

I didn't see any instrument up close and intimately until I made a musician friend. Turns out Yamaha basgitaars are fucking everywhere.

@blakeyrat said:

So yeah, I'm kind of a PC gamer.

I see! Impressive list. I've played about 1 game in the past year and took all year doing it: Fallout 3. Nearly done, though. Get the old hag her violin and then I'll be officially bored and move on to Mass Effect or summat.

 @blakeyrat said:

Stars!

My god.

Memories.

I didn't even understand what the hell that game was about. I got bored with the lack of pictures.

Granted, back then I didn't even really understand what Windows was about, really.

 

 

[Lingerance]

@blakeyrat said:

Sigh.

Ok, let's try this again:

USB Xbox controllers: require no special hardware
Wireless Xbox controllers: require "special" receiver hardware, about $20

So, at best, a subset of Xbox controllers require special hardware. But the cheapest ones do not.

I was operating under the assumption that the wireless ones were much more prevailant, as the 4 people I know with XBox 360s use those exclusively. Exactly how many different variants are official? PS3 has two AFAIK: Dual Shock 3 and Sixaxis, both a near identical except the lighter one (the non-dual shock sixaxis) has no rumble. Both use USB cables to do the BT pairing, which is the only point you need special drivers for them AFAIK, once paired they act like a normal BT gamepad.

[blakeyrat]

@dhromed said:

@blakeyrat said:

Seriously, what the hell does familiarity with consoles have anything to
do with knowing that PC gamepads exist? You're trying to draw this
parallel here, and I just don't get the connection at all.

[...] Ok, once again, playing games on a PC and owning a gamepad are not mutually-exclusive! Not even slightly.

 

Consoles are exclusively controlled with pads. PCs are nearly exclusively controlled with keyboard and mouse.

Guh. We're going back to like the 4th post in this thread. You're confusing platforms with game genres.

You use keyboard/mouse for: Adventure games, FPS, MMOs, (most) RPG, RTS, Strategy.
You use gamepads/joysticks for: the vague "Arcade" genre, Fighting, Flight Sims, Racing, Sports

The ideal controller is a function of *genre*, not of platform. If I play Halo on my Xbox, I miss the mouse/keyboard combo. (Or, more accurately, the trackball/keyboard combo-- I like trackballs better than mouses). If I play a game like Batman: Arkham Asylum on my PC, I use a gamepad.

The fact that you think PC gaming = keyboard/mouse only means you're really limiting your selection of genres. Which is fine! But don't pretend you're some paragon of gaming setting an example to all, because personally I like playing games like Arkham Asylum on my PC, and it's an unplayable mess with the keyboard/mouse.

@dhromed said:

@blakeyrat said:

Like Mitsubishi that makes everything from TVs to fighter jets.

As luck would have it, a work project of mine in the recent past dealt with a management website of construction machinery. One brand was Hitachi. I was so suprised! You never see their shit on construction sites around here. It's all CAT and Caterpillar and Liebherr.

Yeah, I see Hitachi heavy construction equipment quite a bit here in Washington. At this point, I'm never surprised if I see a Yamaha, Hitachi or Mitsubishi logo on any random "thing." They make everything. (I used to have a Mits Cordia-L. I loved that car.) Also, isn't CAT just the ticker symbol for Caterpillar?

@dhromed said:

@blakeyrat said:

So yeah, I'm kind of a PC gamer.

I see! Impressive list. I've played about 1 game in the past year and took all year doing it: Fallout 3. Nearly done, though. Get the old hag her violin and then I'll be officially bored and move on to Mass Effect or summat.

Feh. I mock you. If you play one game a year, and haven't heard of PC gamepads, you're no gamer.

@dhromed said:

 @blakeyrat said:

Stars!

My god.

Memories.

I didn't even understand what the hell that game was about. I got bored with the lack of pictures.

The AI in that game was a bitch. All it did was built dozens, then hundreds, then thousands of medium-sized colony ships and spread out like a freakin' virus across the whole galaxy. It defeated you not because it was particularly intelligent, but because you got sick and tired of it taking 4 hours every goddamned turn just blunting the invasion of AI ships.

The best was playing against a friend and laying minefields around his planets, haha. Mines were brutal in that game, and pretty cheap.

[blakeyrat]

@Lingerance said:

I was operating under the assumption that the wireless ones were much more prevailant, as the 4 people I know with XBox 360s use those exclusively

The kind of people who buy the Premium/Super/Mega/Ultimate/Uber version of the console probably have wireless controllers. The people who buy the Normal/Arcade/Wussy version of the console probably have wired ones. A mitigating factor is that there are only 3 USB ports total on the console (and only 2 in the front), so if you want 4 players you really need at least a couple wireless controllers. And of course people like me buy the Premium version of the console, then add on a wired controller specifically to use as a PC controller.

@Lingerance said:

Exactly how many different variants are official?

Microsoft makes two variants in various colors/designs: Wired, Wireless. That's pretty much all there is to it.

[stratos]

@blakeyrat said:

@dhromed said:

@blakeyrat said:

Stars!

My god.

Memories.

I didn't even understand what the hell that game was about. I got bored with the lack of pictures.

The AI in that game was a bitch. All it did was built dozens, then hundreds, then thousands of medium-sized colony ships and spread out like a freakin' virus across the whole galaxy. It defeated you not because it was particularly intelligent, but because you got sick and tired of it taking 4 hours every goddamned turn just blunting the invasion of AI ships.

The best was playing against a friend and laying minefields around his planets, haha. Mines were brutal in that game, and pretty cheap.

 

Space Empires IV ate my life. SE V nibbled a bit at my life, but I never really got that feeling again. (blurry eyed SE marathon sessions with 2 hour turns micomanaging all your planets.)

On the other hand, Civ V will  be out in a few months, so my life is pretty much pwned anyway.

Also fallout 3 is only 25 bucks now on steam, which means that as  of last weekend I now both own the PS3 version and steam version. My observation having now experienced both controller and mouse and keyboard is that it almost totally changed the game.  Now I'm not a console FPS player, It just annoys me having to wiggle the stick to vaguely target some enemy and have the console do the rest when I'm pulling the trigger.  Especially since I used to play unreal tournament insta gib, in which targeting vaguely in the direction of your target is about as efficient as standing still.
Which is another thing you do a lot in console FPS games.

But wait, I wasn't planning to rant about console FPS games.  Fallout 3 in terms of interface is just made for the console, however I actually enjoy the game a lot more with mouse and keyboard. I used to rely a lot on VATS on the console, and that's fine. But it slows down the game. Or perhaps playing with K&M speeds up the game because you can just point and click, i dunno. But I was amazed by how much quicker I progressed troughout the game while playing with keyboard and mouse.

I think dhromed is doing things the wrong way around though. If he had started with ME1&2, perhaps after that dragon age and THEN played fallout 3, he would have played at least 4 games this year. (especially ME1 and 2 are riddiculously short. Bought them from steam when they where cheaper and played them out in the same weekend. I mean WTF)

 

[immibis]

 @Qwerty said:

99% of the time, the EULA is presented in a small area, with a scrollbar.  Even the "click here to see terms..." hyperlink usually opens a small window with the resize ability disabled.  I have a largeish monitor on my desk which is quite good for reading documents online and if I want to read something, I don't put it in a small window.

Since they have actively taken steps to prevent me from reading the terms, I happily click the box knowing that they can't make anything stick in court.  Contracts where one party prevents the other party from reading the contract inevitably result in the contract being treated as invalid.

Phone contracts, credit card contracts and insurance contracts usually leave you with a small booklet with small printing to take home with you.  You can pick up the book at any time and read it to check the terms you agreed to.  You can give it to your lawyer to read it for you, if you like.  Software EULAs don't let you do this so they are usually worth less than the paper they are not printed on.

They're rarely printed on paper, so does that make them worth a negative amount? So I can charge the developers for the EULA?