Official Membership Thread -- Just Reply Here!



  • Command line tools per se aren't a bad thing. But the ones Oracle produce suck like black holes - I mean has anyone at Oracle actually bothered to update the functionality in SQL*Plus in the last 20 years! Talk about curses! But get with the times dlosh, Oracle now produce several several GUI and web based tools (which suck just as badly).



  • Everyone hates Oracle.

     

    Even if you are a DBA, guess what? You'll end up hating Oracle and everything about it! 



  • One month working with Oracle, and i hate it with the intensity of a thousand suns.

     

     



  • If you had to be trapped on a deserted island who what would you take with you?

     Oracle or Windows Vista?

    personally i'd drown myself.
     



  • I hate you. I hate you sooo much.



  • You know what I'd really like to join?

    PIZZA HUT     HUT      HUT



  • I'll play in your club, but I can't hate Oracle -- I was an employee
    for 15 years and I now work with it as part of my livlihood. Maybe I
    hate the corporate attitude, the bad decisions and directions, more
    than the technical aspects.  I was on the support phones for
    nearly 8 years.  Then development got really excited when I wrote
    a product for the support group using one of their less popular
    products and I was a developer, (it was a requirement that you must
    have studied from one of the top 10 universities in America to be hired
    as a developer back then). Most of my fellow developers were Harvard
    business grads. I got sucked into what eventually became Oracle Portal,
    (but it was hijacked by a bunch of consultants from back east who
    wanted their hack turned into a product and it ended up displacing
    everything else).  Ended up floating around marketing for a while,
    (because obviously marketing is the best group to maintain the
    website???).  Then, when the waves of layoffs came in the early
    part of this decade, I begged my boss to add me to the list, (which has
    more perks than just quitting).  Met a lot of interesting people.
    I used to hash out ideas with Ken Jacobs, (I still think read-only
    tablespaces were my idea), or Rick Allen on security when I met them,
    so it was a good experience anyway.

     My advice to people working with Oracle?  Just use the database, networking and tool utilities.  Avoid anything written in Java like the black death, (not because there is anything wrong with Java per-se, but because Oracle couldn't keep good Java developers around for long).  Use the open source stuff instead, (I wrote the first Windows port of "oraperl" which was one of the first Perl-to-Oracle interfaces and became very popular in the early days of the internet).  I've had the experience of building the Oracle core and have seen some major WTF's -- one time I did a count of about 27 "strlen" functions in the NLS module.



  • @Magnus_Adustum said:

    One month working with Oracle, and i hate it with the intensity of a thousand suns.

     

    I wrote this quote on my project whiteboard last month - now one of my team says that every hour or so and cracks the rest up. That's not just because it's a silly comment; they can relate because not so long ago they thought so too. Now that most of them are approaching two years working with Oracle they think Oracle is just swell, but it took close to a year for them to get the conceptual model of a DBMS. Note that I'm only talking about the Oracle DBMS, and no, I don't think SQL Server or MySQL is relevant experience.

    Responses to some other recent comments:

    • Oracle Forms (and Reports and Discoverer) dates from the time that there were very few languages for bad programmers. Forms made it easy to do screen layout and navigation and it mostly does the edits and other hard stuff automatically. As Oracle Corp updated the toolset over time it tried to beef it up for good programmers, with predictable results. It is arguably still acceptable for bad programmers, so if you don't like it you must be... a good programmer?
    • PL/SQL is just about the perfect language for data abstraction layers, so it works great as part of the Oracle DBMS. PL/SQL is a dialect of Ada, so there is not much of a case that it's "weird" or "foreign" or even "proprietary". PL/SQL will beat any OO language in encapsulation, and it's especially good for model view controllers.



  • Sign me up.  I especially love that you have to install the client tools for ODBC connections.  Which I hate as well but I have to support someone else's code -- I'm stuck with it.  



  • I love to hate Oracle.

     Now on to the I hate Crystal Reports club.



  • I just had the site pointed out to me.   This site is awsome.

     Oracle is such a drag.  I was asked to admin an Oracle DB a few years ago, without knowing any better I agreed.  Had to deal with it for about a year.  I'll never make that mistake again.  That's for sure.



  • I'm in... Oracle developer/dba...but the whining humor here... will be worth it alone.



  • I'm in too



  • Oooookaaayyy....

     Been working on Converting an app w/ a SQL server back end to an Oracle back end (and never has the term 'back end' been more appropriate...)

     OracleDB is remote to me and managed by a guy who actually likes the thing.  For some reason I can't change my own password once it expires, so yesterday I had this conversation (password changed to protect, well, me.)

    DBA: Ok, your password is now "abcd_1234"

    Me: Is that upper or lowercase?

    DBA: Doesn't matter.

    Me: ...

    Me: What?

    DBA: It's not case sensitive.

    Me: Wait: you're telling me that text searches are case sensitive and passwords aren't?

    DBA: It's only case sensitive if you use quotes.

    Me: ???

    Me: No, I mean like 'comparing text fields' is case sensitive

    DBA: Yes.

    Me: But passwords aren't...?

    DBA: No.

     

     

    Really, WTF???

    I was ready to be in this club before, but that conversation was worth getting a login here to join officially!



  • @BlueKnot said:

    Really, WTF???

    I was ready to be in this club before, but that conversation was worth getting a login here to join officially!

    Unfortunately, that is legacy. Once upon a time, it was case insensitive. In Oracle 11, case sensitive passwords can be enabled, but prepare for compatibility issues.



  • @ammoQ said:

    @BlueKnot said:

    Really, WTF???

    I was ready to be in this club before, but that conversation was worth getting a login here to join officially!

    Unfortunately, that is legacy. Once upon a time, it was case insensitive. In Oracle 11, case sensitive passwords can be enabled, but prepare for compatibility issues.

    Good to know, but the guy is running 9i.



  • I hate the Cheap I.T. Bastard that won't spring for Quest or even Toad and says "Didn't we pay for a SQL+ license?"



  • @TunnelRat said:

    I hate the Cheap I.T. Bastard that won't spring for Quest or even Toad and says "Didn't we pay for a SQL+ license?"

    Must be an idiot. SQL Developer is free and almost a reasonable tool. Definitely better than SQL*Plus, though not as feature complete as Toad. (I wonder why "Toad" rhymes with "bloat" ...)



  • Oracle SQL Developer is ok...

    Toad sucks... Did i mention Toad cost 1000 dollars and is the most unstable piece of software i have ever used in my life, it makes windows 95 look rock-solid!

    And oracle windows services seriously slow you down.

     

    I want in :) 



  • I'm in - can I have member number 12154? :)

    Did the DBA thing 6/7/8 years ago with versions 7 and 8i.  Did some fairly extensive Y2K upgrades.  One night, about 2AM, I remember deleting a data file before dropping a tablespace, and there was no way on earth Oracle would let me recover from it without doing a full restore.  Walked away from the whole product shortly after, and started evangelizing SQL Server, which is a much much better RDBMS.  I didn't mind the technical challenge of Oracle, but when it was in areas that didn't need to be challenging, it just got silly.  Keep the simple stuff simple is what I say.

    Pet hates?  The installer (at least it's improved from the old Oracle 7/Developer 2000 days, but that's not saying much), TNSNAMES (management flat out refused to even consider putting them in a directory service or on a network share, so I ended up having to cook up a logon script to copy new TNSNAMES.ORA files to client PCs), the way you can never really be sure what ORACLE_HOME 3rd party software is using (I spend a lot of time troubleshooting those problems for our developers), Forms and Discoverer, ADI (it never worked and was incompatible with their other products when installed on the same machine), JInitiator (or anything Java based, for that matter), the old proprietary IP stack, having to interoperate with GW-BASIC (now there's a WTF all on it's own) for some ghastly mess one of our senior developers brewed up once, the extraordinarily high levels of maintenance required, and the whole general arrogance that surrounds the product.

    Does it still not support identity columns?  Add that to the list, if so.
     



  • I'm in.  Curse the motherless dog that came up with Commit!



  • I'm in. I had hair before I encountered the beast.



  • I gotta join this club. Started my IT career in '95 - did my first oracle install in 2005 - it's been the most inscrutable software i've ever encountered.
    I so regret getting it. In a windows environment i would challenge anyone to give a good reason to run Oracle instead of MS Sqlserver. I used to love bashing Microsoft, i never thought i'd actually be dreaming of the day when i could 'upgrade' to the Micorsoft offering.
    Oracle is a windows sysadmin's nightmare. I've had 3 periods of downtime each of over a week in the last 2 years. Has been the most stress i've ever encountered in my job. The best bit was that each time it turned out to be a fix taking less than 1hour. Not only do i feel dumb, exasperated, p1ssed off but i run into this Attitude everywhere i look for Oracle information. I call it the Oracle attitude and it goes like this: 'You shouldn't need to ask any questions cos all the answers are in the book, you lazy idiot, why can't you take a year off and read all the manuals and then you'll be able to use our beloved database. All Hail The Oracle!' (At this point you're supposed to get out your 3foot thick oracle manual and kiss it).

    i'd like to wipe my 4rse with the oracle documentation. i used to write manuals and readme's - in fact i still do sometimes. i've never seen so many circular references in official documentation before, or spent so much time searching for HOW to do something (which i think at least should be relatively simple). I am looking at it from a sysadmin point of view. I'll probably never create a database from scratch in my life. I look after networks, maintain hardware, sort out routing, that kind of thing. Right now i spend 2 hours a day over looking my network then i sit down with the Oracle O'Reilly take a deep breathe and read that for the rest of the day. Cos i've given up on Oracle support, on Oracle documentation and the courses are for someone who's dedicated to oracle and nothing else - i did the first course but it was like a crammer course, you need to go away and go over all the notes again before it sinks in.

    Last issue i had about 2 weeks ago, i escalated it with Oracle support after about a week - i couldn't connect to one of my databases, i was sure i'd done something silly and messed up the config - and if i've learned one thing its that oracle is very very fussy and the config has to be just right (which is why i backed up all my config b4 changing anything). Anyway after a week and a half and talking to half a dozen guys and running tons of diagnostics which didn't apply to my trivial situation, i gave up and called a contractor.

    He fixed it over the phone in 50 minutes. (half an hour of that call was talking about money). Oh, i should say to be fair that i had already sent him my old listener.ora file and my current one. Cut and pasted 4 lines from the old to the new and it all worked. The relief to be able to see my database again was amazing. The worst thing was i KNEW it was something to do with my listener.ora file, i told oracle support that, i even sent them the old and the new. (One of their guys advised me to drop all my tables and start again rebuilding the database). The other 2 down times were equally trivial - (although having downtime was definitely not trivial). So i felt truly dumb, the whole office was stressful cos one of the main servers was down, and that contractor made in less than 1hour half of my weekly wage.

    I think it has been worst mistake of my IT career when i listened to the salesman tell me that between oracle and sqlserver the maintenance overhead was about the same but oracle was more advanced and had more features and i believed him! So i'm suffering for that naive mistake. It has literally doubled my workload, i've never encountered such shocking support, (i have worked in support off and on many times, 1st line, 2nd line and 3rd line), and i don't think we gain any advantage as a company by having this app.

    I'm sure that oracle is brilliant - if you're ebay or amazon, but not otherwise. And don't believe the marketing hype - it is totally at odds with the support culture.
    It will probably take me a while to migrate all my databases and i'm sure it won't be easy but this database is a waste of time for a guy like me. And once i get approval i'm off out of the land of Oracle :-)

    Just one example of what i consider a typical waste of time on planet Oracle: You install on windows2003 server and you have to manually create environmental variables - if you want to be able to connect that is - and it doesn't say this in the windows2003 install guide? How could they miss out something so simple yet so critical? Stuff like this happens time and time again - even on the course the teacher was telling us things which she just happened to know which weren't documented.

    It's not stupid to ask someone how to do something rather than read a manual for 4 hours. Nor is it necessarily a sign of intelligence if you know something obscure that no-one else knows because it is so hard to find out.

    What i rate as intelligent is the ability to design something that someone else can learn and use relatively quickly, and then in subsequent versions to make it yet more intuitive and logical to use (tho i must admit 10g Enterprise Manager is a great improvement on the 9i one). I can't rate intelligence as the ability to pour scorn on all criticism and tell them to go away and read the book. I'm going to go away and install something else.

    I admit i don't know the intricacies of databases, i'm sysadmin, but i'm not going to be intimidated by the Oracle Attitude anymore, maybe it is the greatest database in the world but who cares? Wasn't Betamax technically better than VHS? When i started in IT we used to replace Netware servers with NT4 boxes. Technically netware was definitely better - quicker, less restarts, needed less resources but who won that battle?

    Laugh as much as you want at MS Sqlserver oracle gurus - it's not just about being technically the best. What about usability? learnability? Interoperability with your O/S? All convoluted obscure solutions with high learning curves and requiring high maintenance will always be replaced - eventually.

    Well I didn't mean to write so long - guess i have 2 years of frustration to get out!



     



  • I would like to be in...

    Has anyone tried writing an application for "Workflow" in Oracle Apps? GOD FORBID you need to actually install it to a client (requires you to insert manually points which draw a picture in the workflow into a database, buncha different tables, took weeks, and if you need to modify the workflow... YAY a whole new script... [we almost had to write a generator to compile oracle meta data into a insert script])

     

    Most of the time an error occures the following is gotten:

    "Error: Commit happened during workflow" (we needed to create temporary tables for w/e reason which is auto-commit) so we could never figure out what the error was. The only way is to turn on debugging which we had to print to a "debugging" table in our schema which was a whole nother annoyance to write... Basically when shit went wrong we had to step though client code to attempt to figure what error actually happened... YAY!



  • Yes. Just...yes.

     I wanna be number -1/2! Is that still available? 



  • @dlikhten said:

    "Error: Commit happened during workflow" (we needed to create temporary tables for w/e reason which is auto-commit) so we could never figure out what the error was.

    Well... I can think of no reason why temporary tables have to be created exactly in the middle of a script, instead of "in advance".

     

    The only way is to turn on debugging which we had to print to a "debugging" table in our schema which was a whole nother annoyance to write... Basically when shit went wrong we had to step though client code to attempt to figure what error actually happened... YAY!

     

    Looks like you are not aware of dbms_output, pragma autonomous transaction or the SQL trace facilities in Oracle. MayI propose you better learn your stuff before you work with a sophisticated tool like Oracle?



  • While Oracle based systems "pay the bills" (love/hate relationship??) I'm in, if for no other reason, the nefarious ORA-1405 error.  If you've never encountered the -1405 error, it's a wonderous thing - ever get a null value back from a stored procedure/function/SQL query?  In C, that's an ORA-1405 error.  Yes, an error.  Granted, NULL values can do magical things in C, but c'mon!



  • @DoctorFriday said:

    While Oracle based systems "pay the bills" (love/hate relationship??) I'm in, if for no other reason, the nefarious ORA-1405 error.  If you've never encountered the -1405 error, it's a wonderous thing - ever get a null value back from a stored procedure/function/SQL query?  In C, that's an ORA-1405 error.  Yes, an error.  Granted, NULL values can do magical things in C, but c'mon!

     

    Except when you use indicator variables to catch those null values.

    e.g.

    void stupid() {
      EXEC SQL BEGIN DECLARE SECTION;
      int dummy;
      short i1;
      EXEC  SQL END DECLARE SECTION;

      EXEC SQL select null into :dummy:i1 from dual;

      if (i1==-1)
       printf("yeah, it's really null\n");
    }

     

    That said, I aggree that this behaviour is annoying and unnecessary with varchar2 columns (resp. strings in C). 



  • Yes please count me in, woot and all that stuff. I had to do some work on Oracle some years ago, and yes I did hate it - you couldn't do 'update A set A.this = B.this from A,B where...' you had to do some horrible subquery with 'where exists' eeuugh. And what's all that stuff with dual, has that gone yet? And also I'm a Sybase fan(ex-consultant, so keep your tomatoes to yourselves), so fully willing to boost Sybase over Oracle given the chance, in the interest of keeping my speciality alive.



  • Ack, I thought I was already a member... Count me in.



  •  I want human cloning to be legal just so I can join this club twice.



  • I'm joining the club as well.

    Oh Oracle, how do I hate thee? Let me count the ways...

    1. The empty string is null. This feature rotted my brain to the point that I assumed it was true for other databases. In working with a SQL Server DB, documentation told me that when inserting rows to a certain table, a certain column should be blank. I made it null. The application failed because it was looking for the empty string, not null. Grrr, why can't everyone pick a standard?

    2. While attempting to come up with a query for a report, I needed to perform a full outer join between two tables. I run my query and get "SQL command not properly ended." I check the query umpteen times and wonder why it's flagging the outer join as the cause for the error. Can you guess? The query was against an Oracle 8i DB, which didn't have support for outer, inner, or any "join" phrasing other than the (+) style join. So how was I to do my full outer join?


      SELECT BLAH FROM A, B WHERE A.FOO = B.FOO (+) UNION SELECT BLAH FROM A, B WHERE A.FOO (+) = B.FOO


      So instead of having a nice, clean, query I have to violate the DRY principle for the sake of an older DB.

    3. Installing Oracle 11g on my new machine and seeing it refuse to support the aforementioned 8i DB. Sigh. 10g is as high as I can go.

    4. When attempting to install 10g, when I didn't pick the right flavor of installer, I got a friendly error message that was great fun to show to my coworkers:


      Abnormal Program Termination. An internal error has occured. Please provide the following files to Oracle Support: "Unknown" "Unknown" "Unknown"



  • I despise oracle.  



  • Well, Alex,

      I do not care about a low membership number.

      I do care about semantics. I propose to rename the club to "I-loathe-Oracle-Club".

    cklam



  • @cklam said:

    Well, Alex,

      I do not care about a low membership number.

      I do care about semantics. I propose to rename the club to "I-loathe-Oracle-Club".

    cklam

    What the fuck are you bitches babbling about?



  • @belgariontheking said:

    @cklam said:

    Well, Alex,

      I do not care about a low membership number.

      I do care about semantics. I propose to rename the club to "I-loathe-Oracle-Club".

    cklam

    What the fuck are you bitches babbling about?

    Hey, he's got 53 whole posts, I think that entitles him to rename some forums, don't you?  Show some respect for goodness' sake!



  •  Meh, I guess I'm in.



  • Hrm, I thought I joined, but I guess not.

     A few years ago, I helped on working to port a rather well known forum system to Oracle. The other programmer on the project had already gotten a working prototype of the software running on Oracle, but wanted some help running Q&A and someone to try and run the installation from the very beginning to make sure everything worked out before he sent the patches upstream. Now, I'm not a fulltime DBA, but I've got a few years experience with PostgreSQL, and MySQL, as well as some experience with a bunch of other database products (mostly interbase/firebird and MS SQL). I figured, it can't be that hard to setup a dev system, and help my friend test the new database driver.

     At the time, I had no experience with the beast, but the trouble began with the freaking installer (I think it was 9, but I don't remember for sure). It would just randomly crap out half-way for no clear reason. A rather frustation experience which was only solved after a lot of googling and trial and error. I think the result required me copying all the files from the CD to the harddrive and installing from there, but I'm not 100% sure.

     Ok, so I got through the install, the rest should be relatively easy to get Oracle bound to the loopback device, get PHP talking to it, and run through the installation. Nope, not at all. Getting Oracle to even properly initalize its own database was somewhat tricky, but closely following the documentation, I was able to get it all the work, and run smoothly; I even got to SQL*Plus to talk nicely to it via a socket interface (I think, its been awhile since I made this setup work).

    I don't remember how long it took, or how many obsecure configuration files I had to go through before I found I needed to run EXEC DBMS_XDB.SETLISTENERLOCALACCESS(FALSE) on the command prompt to make all work. Looking at the oracle documentation now, this is noted in the quick start guide, but it would have saved me a heap of time back then.

     I realize Oracle is a complex and powerful piece of software, but they make it difficult to even get started on it; its almost if you need to be a certified DBA just to play with it a little. I wasn't even doing any real development work; I was simply testing our product against a newly created database backend. It's like they tried hard to make the simple things impossible to figure out without constantly googling, or (trying to) make sense of the Oracle docs.



  •  Started with Oracle 5 running on DOS... Now working with 10g... I've known Oracle for half it's life, and although it is getting older, it's not getting better...



  • Count me in. Here's why.



  • @spajus said:

    Count me in. Here's why.

     

    I don't understand your reasons, sorry. But welcome to the IHOC, anyway.



  • (Added to my Sent mail folder just now) 

    to:  larry.ellison@oracle.com

    subject: i hate you

    Just wanted to give some constructive criticism.  I hate you, I hate your product, I hate Oracle DBAs.  Because you suck.
    Here are some details (about the product, only you know why you suck so much):
    http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/t/1146.aspx



  •  Hello all.



  • I joined today just to say that I, too, hate Oracle.

     



  • Membership threads should always be at the top of the forum.  Bump!

    Not sure if I technically qualify, as I've never used Oracle directly.  However, I do administer a program which makes use of Oracle in production and QA, but MySQL in dev.  Getting a change which requires a database change migrated from dev to qa is a pain and a half.  A change that took 15 minutes to research (I'm not a DBA), 5 minutes to enter, and 25 minutes for MySQL to implement takes our Oracle team days or even weeks to do in QA.  I don't usually know what the actual issues are, as I only have access to the database-independent code.  However, I'm given the distinct impression it's not a manpower issue, as we had three Oracle DBAs on priority call for a while when the project was overdue on a particular deliverable the CIO wanted, and simple changes still took days to implement.

    Note that I'm talking about getting things implemented in QA, here, not production.  I fully understand and agree with production changes taking one to three weeks, just for notification purposes.  However, adding a column to a small table (only 100k rows, the MySQL version only took 150M including indexes after the change was made) took nearly a week, and I just don't understand why.  Of course, this issue was known about in advance, which is why we use MySQL in dev.



  • Ok.. I just have to say that although your example of adding a column is pretty simple.. just in general, the concept of using a totally different database system in development versus the one you deploy on is incredibly stupid.

    I mean, this is even worse than the problem we had where our Oracle DBA/developer insisted upon deploying dev database changes oin a manual and ad hoc basis rather than using automated update scripts (with SQL statements that we had tested).

    If the QA team is implementing a change in another database system, then you have actually two dev teams and two products (one mysql, one Oracle). Its incredibly retarded. Even having two different versions of the same database (Oracle 9i vs. 10g for example) is untenable.

    YOUR DEV AND TESTING ENVIRONMENTS MUST MATCH YOUR PRODUCTION ENVIRONMENT AS EXACTLY AS POSSIBLE. Using a different database is ridiculous.

    Now, having said all of that I understand why your programmers might prefer mysql. Of course, if they had some kind of licensing or other issue they gave for using mysql in dev, it was invalid as Oracle Express is available for developers. And if there is some reason that supposedly Oracle is necessary for production, that is also invalid as mysql can almost certainly handle the performance requirements (there are few exceptions, give me the performance etc details of your database and I will verify that). If its transaction support or something then they should use the InnoDB engine.

    The fact that you have three Oracle DBAs is compounding the issue. Here's what you do.. save yourself a half a million or more dollars a year and SCRAP ORACLE AND FIRE ALL OF THE DBAS.

    I would say the situation you are in is insane and you should find another job. Your CIO should be fired because he should have recognized that a long time ago.



  • Sign me up! We use Oracle DB, Peoplesoft, Siebel Loyalty, Hyperion, Campaign Managemernt, Oracle Warehouse Builder, etc. etc. They all suck, but not nearly as much as their support and marketing teams.

    Now I'm not just a user, I'm a member too!



  • Sign me up. Oracle is the most obtuse POS I've ever had to deal with.



  • Member 180, reporting in!  (Ok, that was just the post count, didn't count the number of unique posters.)

    NVL, NVL2!?  WTF!?



  • ORA-01799 just put me over the edge.


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