We're just guessing here



  • Another team has managed to completely botch their last couple of releases (missing functionality, functionality that wasn't requested (that was implemented incorrectly to boot), functionality that seemed to have been implemented by dyslexic monkeys, and so forth). The users, while annoyed, understand that occasionally stuff happens (especially since they're constantly changing the requirements). However, they instructed the team that the next release has to be "right" (spelled: no-bugs-and-delivered-ahead-of-shedule) - implying or-else.

    It's now nearing the user-demo and the other team keeps pestering us to help in the testing. Why? They can't tell if they implemented things correctly. We looked at the specs from which they were working and found 50-ish issues. Two days later, they come back and most of the issues haven't been fixed, but new ones cropped up. Two days later, they fixed the "new" issues and are back to the original list. They insist we help them with their testing. Normally, we don't mind helping out as it goes both ways, but we have our own deliverable shortly, and they hadn't fixed the original bunch of bugs yet. We suggested that they split the list, and have everyone work on and test one bug at a time until they get through it, and then we'll help test.

    The time for the user demo comes and goes and no code. Three days later, they come back and announce that they fixed the bugs, but they don't know if the fixes will work. Um, so how do you know that you fixed the bugs? Well, we wrote more code; this functionality is in a business area with which we're not familiar... we're just guessing here.

    *sigh*

     



  •  I want to turn your life into a sitcom.  One of those dark, quasi-depressing sitcoms where the absence of a laugh track amplifies the awkwardness.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

     I want to turn your life into a sitcom.  One of those dark, quasi-depressing sitcoms where the absence of a laugh track amplifies the awkwardness.

    I appreciate the sentiment, but I'm just an innocent bystander watching the impending train wreck here...

     



  • @snoofle said:

    @morbiuswilters said:

     I want to turn your life into a sitcom.  One of those dark, quasi-depressing sitcoms where the absence of a laugh track amplifies the awkwardness.

    I appreciate the sentiment, but I'm just an innocent bystander watching the impending train wreck here...
    And, Thursdays at 8 starting this fall, we can all be innocent bystanders thanks to NBC's newest sitcom Snoofle.  Starring snoofle as snoofle, with btk as the wacky neighbor.  This fall, Thursdays get Snoofled!



  • @bstorer said:

    And, Thursdays at 8 starting this fall, we can all be innocent bystanders thanks to NBC's newest sitcom Snoofle.

    I was thinking more WB.  You know, for the urban thing.  WB is still around, right?

     

    @bstorer said:

    Starring snoofle as snoofle, with btk as the wacky neighbor.

    And pstorer as the creepy forum troll who always asks inappropriate questions about snoofie's daughter.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    @bstorer said:
    And, Thursdays at 8 starting this fall, we can all be innocent bystanders thanks to NBC's newest sitcom Snoofle.

    I was thinking more WB.  You know, for the urban thing.  WB is still around, right?

    First of all, The WB aimed more towards teens.  You're probably thinking of UPN.  But in either case, the answer is no.  And it seems that The CW has aimed more at the tween/teen set (such as snoofle's daughters).  For a more urban demo, you're best bet, strangely, is probably TBS.  Although Time Warner's media sales people apparently want to aim for trannies (emphasis mine):

     

    TBS has the best portfolio of proven laugh-out-loud comedies on
    television. To leverage their impressive programming assets, TBS is
    relaunching itself as the home for comedy lovers. The brand relaunch
    includes a new on-air look, logo and tagline, "tbs very funny," all
    designed to support a targeted programming strategy. The comedy lovers,
    the network's core target, are young adults who are well educated,
    affluent for their age, dual-gender and love comedic programming of all
    types. They look for shows that make them laugh out loud and feel good.
    Comedy lovers consistently turn to TBS because it's where they can find
    the greatest sitcoms and the funniest blockbuster movies.
    @morbiuswilters said:

     

    @bstorer said:

    Starring snoofle as snoofle, with btk as the wacky neighbor.

    And pstorer as the creepy forum troll who always asks inappropriate questions about snoofie's daughter.

    Let's just get this on the record: I made inappropriate comments about his nieces.



  • @snoofle said:

    They can't tell if they implemented things correctly. We looked at the specs from which they were working and found 50-ish issues.
     

    I realise this is the WTF but I'm wondering how this is possible.  What are they coding against if not the specs?

    It isn't hard to have a list of business requirements and then perform specific tests to ensure the requirements are met.



  • @bstorer said:

    Starring snoofle as snoofle, with btk as the wacky neighbor.
    ammoQ as the hard but lovable CIO, bstorer as snoofle's officemate and Welbog reprising his role as "Doctor Von Laser".



  • @RTapeLoadingError said:

    @snoofle said:

    They can't tell if they implemented things correctly. We looked at the specs from which they were working and found 50-ish issues.
     

    I realise this is the WTF but I'm wondering how this is possible.  What are they coding against if not the specs?

    It isn't hard to have a list of business requirements and then perform specific tests to ensure the requirements are met.

    The specs here are of the hand-waving non-specific variety. If you take them literally, any task can be implemented as: doTask { /* magic happens */ }, which on the project plan, is 5 minutes. In practice, if you think a task through, there's always more to it than that. These guys aren't much in the thinking-it-through-to-figure-out-the-details department.

     



  • @snoofle said:

    his functionality is in a business area with which we're not familiar... we're just guessing here.
     

    this is what I've been doing for the past few days! I have no idea what the real business requirements are, so I'm just coding long.

    I have so far only been able to make sure it is technically correct in that the flows make sense, it doesn't crash, code and DB fields match up, defaults are set, common sense date formats are displayed etc etc.

    In my defense, I don't actually have specs. Instead, I have a grumpy coworker.



  • So basically, your average business user.

    To put this into perspective, I'm not much better when I'm buying something I know nothing about.

    "Yeah, I want a car."

    "Diesel or gas?"

    "Yes. Or one of them electrical thingamajigs".



  • @b_redeker said:

    "Yeah, I want a car."

    "Diesel or gas?"

    "Yes. Or one of them electrical thingamajigs".

    And in the end it turns out he meant a Segway



  • @DOA said:

    @b_redeker said:

    "Yeah, I want a car."

    "Diesel or gas?"

    "Yes. Or one of them electrical thingamajigs".

    And in the end it turns out he meant a Segway

     

    I thought I made that clear.

     



  • @bstorer said:

    Starring snoofle as snoofle, with btk as the panstless neighbor.
    FTFY.  It's like you don't even know me anymore.



  • @belgariontheking said:

    @bstorer said:

    Starring snoofle as snoofle, with btk as the panstless neighbor.
    FTFY.  It's like you don't even know me anymore.

    What?  Pantslessness isn't wacky?



  • @snoofle said:

    The specs here are of the hand-waving non-specific variety
     

    In that case, I'd imagine it's pretty difficult to deliver whatever the user thought they were asking for.

    Is there no way to persuade the users/management/whoever to try more specific specs that are signed off as being correct?  It would seem to me that a couple of hours (or even days) spent gathering detailed information at the start of the project would be easily made up at the end by things being done properly.



  • @b_redeker said:

    So basically, your average business user.

    To put this into perspective, I'm not much better when I'm buying something I know nothing about.

    "Yeah, I want a car."

    "Diesel or gas?"

    "Yes. Or one of them electrical thingamajigs".

    Except that the business user does know what he is talking about. I think the big problem is that from his perspective everything is so self-evident it doesn't need specifying. So it's our job (when doing the technical analysis) to extract the information efficiently from him.



  • @bstorer said:

    @belgariontheking said:

    @bstorer said:

    Starring snoofle as snoofle, with btk as the panstless neighbor.
    FTFY.  It's like you don't even know me anymore.

    What?  Pantslessness isn't wacky?
     

    Why am I not in this sitcom?



  • @bjolling said:

    Except that the business user does know what he is talking about. I think the big problem is that from his perspective everything is so self-evident it doesn't need specifying. So it's our job (when doing the technical analysis) to extract the information efficiently from him.

    "Well of course I didn't specify it! Anyone with half a brain knows that BQXA = WTF / OMG * phaseofthemoon - 1; what are you, stupid? Well of COURSE I expect everybody to know everything about my problem domain!" (In other news, everybody speaks $my_native_language_with_1_million_users_worldwide, but 99% of the people are too lazy to admit it; this can be solved by speaking slowly and loudly; c'mon, 1 million is a lot of people!)



  • @dhromed said:

    Why am I not in this sitcom?
    They'll wait for the sitcom to jump the shark, then they'll have you as a special guest.



  • @dhromed said:

    @bstorer said:

    @belgariontheking said:

    @bstorer said:

    Starring snoofle as snoofle, with btk as the panstless neighbor.
    FTFY.  It's like you don't even know me anymore.

    What?  Pantslessness isn't wacky?
     

    Why am I not in this sitcom?

     

    The network wants to broadcast it in Japan and thought the mini nukes would be insensitive.



  • @bjolling said:

    Except that the business user does know what he is talking about.
     

    What I meant is: he might be pretty good at his horse-and-cart business, but now he's seen an 18-wheeler, and he's trying to describe this to you in terms of horses and carts. And when you figure out what he wants, you're not even sure it's going to solve his problems, because there's no diesel in his region, or 18-wheelers can't make the turns in his 17th century city, or your sales guy drew up the specs with the business user.

    No shame there. However, I'm especially wary of that indignant guy giving you the look like
    you're a cockroach from Uranus. So while he'll say

    @piskvorr said:

    Anyone with half a brain knows that BQXA = WTF / OMG * phaseofthemoon - 1; what are you, stupid?

    you find out this only works on alternate fridays, and the rest of the week it's way off. Or this was considered a good approximation in the 70s (the 1670s that is), but this will be a major problem with the new trucks. Not that it really matters, because the drivers know better and have their own calculations. In fact, no-one ever listens to the guy, and you suspect the only reason he still has his job is that his manager is a bit afraid of him (*).



     

     



  • @dhromed said:

    @bstorer said:

    @belgariontheking said:

    @bstorer said:

    Starring snoofle as snoofle, with btk as the panstless neighbor.
    FTFY.  It's like you don't even know me anymore.

    What?  Pantslessness isn't wacky?
     

    Why am I not in this sitcom?

    The studio was unable to meet your agent's demands.  We were fine with the personal trailer on set, but we just couldn't find one big enough for all the dicks you wanted.  I know you want to swim in a pool of dicks à la Scrooge McDuck, but we're trying to put on a show here.



  • @bstorer said:

    Scrooge McDick,
     

    AHAHAHAHAHA look at what i did



  • @dhromed said:

    @bstorer said:

    Scrooge McDick,
     

    AHAHAHAHAHA look at what i did

    GENIOUS!  How would you like to be head writer?



  • @bstorer said:

    @belgariontheking said:
    @bstorer said:
    Starring snoofle as snoofle, with btk as the panstless neighbor.
    FTFY.  It's like you don't even know me anymore.
    What?  Pantslessness isn't wacky?
    It is, but my goal is panstlessness, not wackiness.

    Between that and my desire to cuddle anything furrier than Sinead O'Connor, I guess Wacky would do.  My character's name should reflect that.

    Are you sure I'm not more zany?

    Also, is Morb a hobo?  He should be a hobo that everyone calls fat and he screams "I'm not fat!"



  • @belgariontheking said:

    Also, is Morb a hobo?  He should be a hobo that everyone calls fat and he screams "I'm not fat!"

    Will I have to provide my own bindle?



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    @belgariontheking said:

    Also, is Morb a hobo?  He should be a hobo that everyone calls fat and he screams "I'm not fat!"

    Will I have to provide my own bindle?

    Hell, no.  We're going where the big money is: basic cable.  Spike TV, here we come!  Free bindles for everyone!



  • @bstorer said:

    @morbiuswilters said:

    @belgariontheking said:

    Also, is Morb a hobo?  He should be a hobo that everyone calls fat and he screams "I'm not fat!"

    Will I have to provide my own bindle?

    Hell, no.  We're going where the big money is: basic cable.  Spike TV, here we come!  Free bindles for everyone!

    Is that the TV network founded by Spike Lee, or the one founded by Spike Jonze?



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    @bstorer said:
    Hell, no.  We're going where the big money is: basic cable.  Spike TV, here we come!  Free bindles for everyone!
    Is that the TV network founded by Spike Lee, or the one founded by Spike Jonze?
    Actually, I think it's named after Spike, the baby dragon from My Little Ponies.



  • @snoofle said:

    Another team has managed to completely botch their last couple of releases (missing functionality, functionality that wasn't requested (that was implemented incorrectly to boot), functionality that seemed to have been implemented by dyslexic monkeys, and so forth). The users, while annoyed, understand that occasionally stuff happens (especially since they're constantly changing the requirements). However, they instructed the team that the next release has to be "right" (spelled: no-bugs-and-delivered-ahead-of-shedule) - implying or-else.

    It's now nearing the user-demo and the other team keeps pestering us to help in the testing. Why? They can't tell if they implemented things correctly. We looked at the specs from which they were working and found 50-ish issues. Two days later, they come back and most of the issues haven't been fixed, but new ones cropped up. Two days later, they fixed the "new" issues and are back to the original list. They insist we help them with their testing. Normally, we don't mind helping out as it goes both ways, but we have our own deliverable shortly, and they hadn't fixed the original bunch of bugs yet. We suggested that they split the list, and have everyone work on and test one bug at a time until they get through it, and then we'll help test.

    The time for the user demo comes and goes and no code. Three days later, they come back and announce that they fixed the bugs, but they don't know if the fixes will work. Um, so how do you know that you fixed the bugs? Well, we wrote more code; this functionality is in a business area with which we're not familiar... we're just guessing here.

    *sigh*

     

    Sympathy. It's the old us-team v. them-team.


    Getting them to even write any code was like pulling teeth. We ended up writing most of their apps for them. Top mgmt insisted we put their apps as higher-pri than our own, because their customers were paying more.


    The good news is the bubble has burst, and they're sacking them closing the whole Florida office down, in fact.


    All very well but I'm picking up the bloody Fortran. Aargh.


    My next task is to find out what the customer expectations were for this project I've inherited, but nobody in their office seems to have seen fit to write anything down.


    Fucking pricks, all of them (apart from the few friends I have there - you know who you are.)



  • @Matt Westwood said:

    Getting them to even write any code was like pulling teeth. We ended up writing most of their apps for them. Top mgmt insisted we put their apps as higher-pri than our own, because their customers were paying more.

    @Matt Westwood said:
    The good news is ... they're sacking them

    These sentences go together more often than you might think, in my limited experience.  It doesn't necessarily require a bubble bursting.

    The key is to ensure that management knows the situation, without appearing like you're complaining or 'tattling'.



  • @Someone You Know said:

    @dhromed said:

    @bstorer said:

    @belgariontheking said:

    @bstorer said:

    Starring snoofle as snoofle, with btk as the panstless neighbor.
    FTFY.  It's like you don't even know me anymore.

    What?  Pantslessness isn't wacky?
     

    Why am I not in this sitcom?

     

    The network wants to broadcast it in Japan and thought the mini nukes would be insensitive.

     

    They will just do what they always do. Make it look and act like a nuke but call it something else.

    I'm not sure how I got this bit of trivia but apparently there was a sort of silent rule that it was "not done" to show nuclear weapons in media. Of course in traditional japanese fashion, this resulted in latter years by showing nuclear explosions/mushroom clouds but specifically mentioning that it was something else. 



  • @stratos said:

    @Someone You Know said:

    @dhromed said:

    @bstorer said:

    @belgariontheking said:

    @bstorer said:

    Starring snoofle as snoofle, with btk as the panstless neighbor.
    FTFY.  It's like you don't even know me anymore.

    What?  Pantslessness isn't wacky?
     

    Why am I not in this sitcom?

     

    The network wants to broadcast it in Japan and thought the mini nukes would be insensitive.

     

    They will just do what they always do. Make it look and act like a nuke but call it something else. Tentacle rape porn.

    FTFY



  • @stratos said:

    showing nuclear explosions/mushroom clouds but specifically mentioning that it was something else. 
     

    That could even be plausible, as many kinds of explosions send up a nice fireball.



  • @stratos said:

    Of course in traditional japanese fashion, this resulted in latter years by showing nuclear explosions/mushroom clouds but specifically mentioning that it was something else. 

     

    Not all that unrealistic, actually. Mushroom clouds aren't caused by nuclear explosions; they're caused by really big explosions, of which most nuclear explosions are a subset. This is why, for instance, volcanoes can explode in mushroom clouds without any nuclear reaction taking place.

    Don't tell dhromed, but it also means that the mini nukes in Fallout 3, if they were real, probably wouldn't produce mushroom clouds.



  • @Someone You Know said:

    Don't tell dhromed, but it also means that the mini nukes in Fallout 3, if they were real, probably wouldn't produce mushroom clouds.
    Maybe they'd produce minimushroom clouds?  Or mushroom miniclouds.  Or minimushroom miniclouds.  Or mini[mushroom clouds] via the distributive property.



  • @bstorer said:

    @Someone You Know said:

    Don't tell dhromed, but it also means that the mini nukes in Fallout 3, if they were real, probably wouldn't produce mushroom clouds.
    Maybe they'd produce minimushroom clouds?  Or mushroom miniclouds.  Or minimushroom miniclouds.  Or mini[mushroom clouds] via the distributive property.

    If mini(nuke) = mini(mushroom + cloud) then room = (nuke - cloud) / mush. Or something.

     




  • @Someone You Know said:

    Mushroom clouds aren't caused by nuclear explosions; they're caused by really big explosions, of which most nuclear explosions are a subset. This is why, for instance, volcanoes can explode in mushroom clouds without any nuclear reaction taking place.

    Don't tell dhromed, but it also means that the mini nukes in Fallout 3, if they were real, probably wouldn't produce mushroom clouds.

     

    I'm going to go BEEEEP on this one. Also I bring evidence!

    Mushroom clouds are caused strictly by very hot, fiery explosions, of which nucular booms are a subset (though it's kind of odd to call a nuclear explosion sub-anything, heh).

    Really big explosions don't necessarily cause a mushroom cloud, because the chemical reaction of the material might as well cause a massive pressure change but not a fireball. For example, when Mythbusters filled a truck with c4, there was no fire and no muhsroom cloud. It was basically a large firecracker. The same thing goes for mining and construction explosions: lots of dust, but no fire and no mushroom.

    By contrast, here's an exploding gas tank, which produces a pretty impressive mushroom (scrub to 0:35 and watch. I can't figure out how to link to times directly and don't have the time (lol)).

    From a practical standpoint, they both do the job very well. You still end up with zero truck.

    Mini nukes definitely produce a lot of heat and are very likely to produce a fireball, though I admit that given their size, I wouldn't be absolutely certain of that. Is there footage of such micro-nuclear devices exploding? Like, euh, on youtube?

    If you feel I'm wrong, please explain and bring more evidence.



  • Morb's character should actually be a bitter fat racist hobo with PTSD from his time in Vietnam.  He can live in the alley behind Snoofle and Btk's apartment building. His problems compounded years ago when he was getting his life back together and the three card monte virus wiped out everything sending him into his bitter rage.  He lost it all that day...

     Dhromed can be on of snoofles incompetant coworks who fancies himself a cowboy coder. He should also be a fanboy of "The Game" and try to constantly peacock around the office.

     Alright now its your turn to fit me into this mess.



  • @dhromed said:

    I can't figure out how to link to times directly and don't have the time (lol)).
    Just remember youtubetime.com.

    Actually I had to google "youtube time" because I had forgotten the URL..



  • Yes I was and am wel aware that mushroom clouds aren't the exclusive right of nulcear bombs. However in media they are the iconic representation of nuclear explosions. 

    Big flash of light + mushroom cloud = nuclear bomb 99% of the time in entertainment media.

    The interesting bit of trivia was that after ww2 when japan had a uprising in entertainment media everything which had anything to do with nuclear bombs or power was either not shown or refered to as evil. 
    Later nuclear bombs were introduced but in typical japanese fashion they escaped censors and such by calling it something else.

    For instance in neon evangelion there are nuke like bombs, these are however specifically refered to as N2 mines. (which stands for Non-Nuclear)



  • @dhromed said:

    (scrub to 0:35 and watch. I can't figure out how to link to times directly and don't have the time (lol)).
    Just add #t=0m35s to the end of the URL.  Scientists have discovered that even monkeys can link directly to times in YouTube videos.  Are you stupider than a monkey?


     



  • @stratos said:

    gee i guess why they had such an aversion,
     

    I really couldn't say.

     

     

    I wonder if Fallout 3 is even slightly popular in Japan....



  • @bstorer said:

    Just add #t=0m35s to the end of the URL.  Scientists have discovered that even moneys can link directly to times in YouTube videos.  Are you stupider than a monkey?
     

    No, but It tried to append &t=0:35, which, MAKES MORE FUCKING SENSE.

     

    ASPLODES  (non-nuclear)

     @bstorer said:

    Scientists have discovered that even monkeys can link directly

    You fuckfaced cuntbitch, money is a conceptual construct with inanimate representation in the physical world. Also, you week-old cumdrop, you fucking misspelled monies spelled "monkeys" correctly.

     [FTFY. -bs]



  • @dhromed said:

    @stratos said:

    gee i guess why they had such an aversion,
     

    I really couldn't say.

     

     

    I wonder if Fallout 3 is even slightly popular in Japan....

     

    Sort of ^^

    http://kotaku.com/5082637/bethesda-censors-fallout-3-for-japan 

    he side-quest The Power of the Atom has been changed. ...
    removing the option of detonating the nuclear bomb.

    the name of a weapon was changed as it was deemed "inappropriate" for
    Japan. ...  the weapon is mini-nuke launcher

    Of course that's just to appease oversensative rating boards and censors. I doubt anyone younger then 30 actually cared all that much.



  • @Someone You Know said:

    Not all that unrealistic, actually. Mushroom clouds aren't caused by nuclear explosions; they're caused by really big explosions, of which most nuclear explosions are a subset.
    They're caused by a sucking in of air at the explosion point, then spreading out once it achieves a certain height.

    dhromed may be more on spot with his "heat" explanation, but if you try hard enough, you can create a mushroom cloud on your desk.  Go on I'll wait while you try it.

    Anyway --

    Maybe dhromed is everything galgorah described, but his home is full of phallic objects and he's building a nuke in his apartment.  You won't find out about this until the third season when snoofle's love interest goes on a date with dhromed.  At that point, America will see dhromed's apartment and the conservative crowd won't know whether to hate him for the cocks or love him for wanting to blow shit up.

    This all goes down ala The Wonder Years.  Snoofle liked the love interest (shall we call her ... JCW?)  since second grade but never had the balls to ask her out.  He's just lucky she works with him and he gets to make up all kinds of excuses to visit her desk.  Along comes dhromed (who has no shame aka mondo balls) who finds out about Snoofle's mondo crush (mondo twice in one sentence?  This really is the 80s) teaches Snoofle how to get a date by going on a date with JCW.



  •  awesome



  • Since its ridonkulus to fit myself into this, I'm gonna ask that someone take up the torch and fit me in the sitcom somewhere.  If it's any help, my girlfriend says I have this uncanny superpower to to be very charming (and goofy) when I want to be and Ultra super creepy when I want to be, via voices, movement, etc.



  • @snoofle said:

    Another team has managed to completely botch their last couple of releases (missing functionality, functionality that wasn't requested (that was implemented incorrectly to boot), functionality that seemed to have been implemented by dyslexic monkeys, and so forth). The users, while annoyed, understand that occasionally stuff happens (especially since they're constantly changing the requirements). However, they instructed the team that the next release has to be "right" (spelled: no-bugs-and-delivered-ahead-of-shedule) - implying or-else.

     

    What you need is an acceptance test framework, like cucumber.  Then the  guy writing the specs can create acceptance tests, which the program has to pass before the team claims to be done.  No "missing functionality" or "implemented incorrectly" stuff anymore.

    look it up,  cuke.info


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