Google

[Mole]

 @belgariontheking said:

@scgtrp said:

It's to LISTEN TO YOUR USERS.

Are you trying to argue that MS didn't do that?  or that Google didn't do that?  Because I recall being a part of an extensive Beta test of Windows 7.  

"I'm a PC, and Windows 7 was my idea."

Don't you just hate that tagline? As if Microsoft would listen to there customers. More like "No, no, no, we've designed this thing called a 'ribbon'. Completely forget everything you have learned about office and learn it again. Really, Its what you want, believe us." 

Whoever said "Ribbon was my idea" I want to go out and shoot them with an RPG... 

[fatdog]

@Mole said:

"I'm a PC, and Windows 7 was my idea."

Don't you just hate that tagline? As if Microsoft would listen to there customers. More like "No, no, no, we've designed this thing called a 'ribbon'. Completely forget everything you have learned about office and learn it again. Really, Its what you want, believe us." 

Whoever said "Ribbon was my idea" I want to go out and shoot them with an RPG... 

RPG? You want to shoot people with geeks games?

Also..

Oh noes! It's the Ribbons!!! Ribbons are hardz and complicated!!!

If it's different than what I'm used to, it then must suck.

WHY MICROSOFT? WHY??? Why did you have to change my way of doing thing? Now I have to spend a whole 30 minutes learning everything again.

If only I had learned the keyboard shorcuts. Damn.

[belgariontheking]

@scgtrp said:

They certainly didn't address any of my concerns, mainly the menu, and I am not the only person who has a problem with it.

Maybe because yours and the three other people's concerns were way off?  Because you can switch it back to your old win2k mode if you want and quit bitching and let the people who like it continue to use it?

I see the new start menu as an improvement.  I don't miss the old pop out menu system that could take up my entire screen.  I click, type about 4 characters, and click on the program I want, and that's only if that program isn't already on my improved quickstart bar.  I don't wait for legions of menus to pop up at me.  

[OzPeter]

@belgariontheking said:

I see the new start menu as an improvement.  I don't miss the old pop out menu system that could take up my entire screen.  I click, type about 4 characters, and click on the program I want, and that's only if that program isn't already on my improved quickstart bar.  I don't wait for legions of menus to pop up at me.  

Not having used Windows 7 and still on XP, doesn't what you are describing imply that you have to move from mouse to keyboard to mouse in order to start your program, thus involving two totally different sorts of physical actions?

And in doing so doesn't this also deprecate the use of positional memory in selecting a program, meaning you now have to rely on physical and linguistical skills ?

[SQLDave]

 @belgariontheking said:

 Because I recall being a part of an extensive Beta test of Windows 7.  

Not to further derail the thread (he says just prior to further derailing it), but arre you the jackass responsible for the removal of the "up folder" button? 

[belgariontheking]

@OzPeter said:

doesn't what you are describing imply that you have to move from mouse to keyboard to mouse in order to start your program

I don't have to, but it's the fastest way.  Tons faster than navigating three-deep menus back in the XP/Win2k days.  @OzPeter said:

And in doing so doesn't this also deprecate the use of positional memory in selecting a program, meaning you now have to rely on physical and linguistical skills ?

But that positional memory could be fucked at any time if you add another menu and Sort By Name.  If you use something often enough, put it in your quick start (in win7, pin to your taskbar) or pin it to your start menu.  

In my opinion, even the going through your All Programs is better in win7 than in XP, but I understand if people want to go all across their screen with the cursor for some kind of "positional memory."  But personally, I don't use it.  All the stuff I use is right there on my taskbar or in my games pile on my desktop.  Once I use a program once, if I feel like I'm going to use it often, I right click and select "pin to taskbar" and it stays there.I'm just over 1/2 way across the bottom of my screen right now so there's plenty of room for more.

[ender]

@SQLDave said:

Not to further derail the thread (he says just prior to further derailing it), but arre you the jackass responsible for the removal of the "up folder" button?

I never used the up folder button, but I'm still very annoyed that Vista changed Backspace in Explorer (and common dialogs) from "Up folder" to "Go back" (unless there's nothing to go back to, in which case it's still Up folder), and you're required to use Alt+Up instead now (I also don't like the screwed tab order in common dialogs that Vista introduced).

[bob171123]

@scgtrp said:

I can't think of any noticeable UI changes between the beta and the RTM. They certainly didn't address any of my concerns, mainly the menu, and I am not the only person who has a problem with it.

 

 

Meh, I bet those are just the old folks who still think IE is the internets, and that the internets are made of tubes. Don't worry, Congress is working hard on getting rid of them. Just hold out for a while.

[bob171123]

@belgariontheking said:

Once I use a program once, if I feel like I'm going to use it often, I right click and select "pin to taskbar" and it stays there.I'm just over 1/2 way across the bottom of my screen right now so there's plenty of room for more.

 

 QFT, the taskbar is one of the better new additions in my opinion.

[Guest]

@fatdog said:

@Mole said:

Whoever said "Ribbon was my idea" I want to go out and shoot them with an RPG... 

RPG? You want to shoot people with geeks games?

It could also be one of these things:

• [I'd] Rather Poop Glass
• [I'd] Rather Pork a Guy
• Rabid Pouncing Groundhogs.
• Raging Penis Goiter
• Raging Possessed Gremlin
• Raging Premenstrual Girl
• Raging Premenstrual Syndrome
• Ragins Premenstrual Syndrome
• Rainy Parade Grounds
• Rampaging Pirate Gang
• Rancid Penis Gangrene
• Rancid Pork Goo
• Rancid Pork piG
• Random Penis Grabber
• Random Picture Generator
• Random Picture Getter
• Random Plague Giver.
• Random Point Generation
• Random Pr0n Greppler
• Random Program Generator
• Randomly Proffered Genitalia
• Randy Pirate Gang
• Ransom Preaching Gangsta.
• Rape-Participating Gangs
• Rape Porky piG
• Rape Pregnant Gals!!!
• Rape Pregnant Guys
• Rape Provides Giggles
• Rape Pussy Good
• Rape then Punch in the Gonads
• Rape, Plunder, Gore
• Rapidly Progressing Gains
• Rapidly Punched Groin
• Rapidly Punishing GULag.
• Rapidly put-together GUI
• Rare Pork Grab
• Rare Pussy Gift
• Rarely Praising God
• Rarely Proving Good
• Raunchy Pornographic Girls
• Raving Pundit Guy
• Really Pathetic Geek
• Really Persistent Groundhogs
• Really Persistent Rodents
• Really Pissant Greek
• Really Poor Graphics
• Really Pretty Girls
• Really Prolonged Grunting
• Really Pummel the Guy who forgets RPG
• Really Pungent Gas
• Reclusive Pstorer's Gnats.
• Rectal Pounding Guys
• Rectal Probe Gouging
• Rectally Plunder Girls
• Rectally Punishing Guy.
• Regretfully Plebian Group...
• Removable Paper Glue
• Rent ePeens Gorgeously.
• Rented Pussy Gonorrhea
• Repent! Pstorer is God!
• Repetitive Puss Gargling
• Replace Pornography with Girls
• Report Program Generator
• Reptile-Punching Gangsters.
• Resplendent Pube Gala
• Response on Punch to the Groin
• Responsible Period Gangbang
• Restricted Parental Guidance.
• Retract Pussy Gift
• RickRoll and Post Goatse
• Rickroll Pedantic GCC.
• Ridiculously Predictable Gag.
• Rigor mortis Powered Groping
• Robot Pornography Group
• Robotic Plug-in Gadgets
• Rock that Pussy Good
• Rocket Propelled Grenade, like my sperm heading at your face
• Rocket Proprelled Grenade
• Rodent Pleasing Gays
• Role Playing Game
• Rosy Pussy Glow
• Rough Pork Gag
• Round Pusy Gash
• Round, Purple Gonads
• Roving Panty Grabber
• Rowdily Placed Goatse.
• Rowdy Party Groupies
• Rowdy Pregnant Girls
• Rowdy Pregnant Groupies
• Rows of Poppy Gardens
• Ruckus, Potentially General.
• Rude Patriarch Ghoul
• Rumbling Pregnant Giant.
• Rumbling Promiscuous Gas

[Mole]

I mean Rocket Propelled Grenade, which isn't in your list. Although your close with Rocket Proprelled Grenade.

I must apologise,  I thought it was obvious, considering the context. 

[dhromed]

@Mole said:

I mean Rocket Propelled Grenade, which isn't in your list. Although your close with Rocket Proprelled Grenade.I must apologise,  I thought it was obvious, considering the context. 

 

I remembered that RPG also meant something else common besides Role Playing Game, but not being a very warlike person, I couldn't for the life of me remember what it was.

But now I do.

[cue The More You Know lolpic]

[derula]

@Spectre said:

@fatdog said:

@Mole said:

Whoever said "Ribbon was my idea" I want to go out and shoot them with an RPG... 

RPG? You want to shoot people with geeks games?

It could also be one of these things:

I think you forgot "Really Pretentious Gun".

[Guest]

@OzPeter said:

@belgariontheking said:

I see the new start menu as an improvement.  I don't miss the old pop out menu system that could take up my entire screen.  I click, type about 4 characters, and click on the program I want, and that's only if that program isn't already on my improved quickstart bar.  I don't wait for legions of menus to pop up at me.  

Not having used Windows 7 and still on XP, doesn't what you are describing imply that you have to move from mouse to keyboard to mouse in order to start your program, thus involving two totally different sorts of physical actions?

And in doing so doesn't this also deprecate the use of positional memory in selecting a program, meaning you now have to rely on physical and linguistical skills ?

 

Well, if you are already using your mouse, you can type the letters all with your left hand (not too hard really).   However, Since I try to use my keyboard as much as possible I simple hit the windows key, then type in the program name, then hit enter.  

[scgtrp]

@belgariontheking said:

I see the new start menu as an improvement.  I don't miss the old pop out menu system that could take up my entire screen.  I click, type about 4 characters, and click on the program I want, and that's only if that program isn't already on my improved quickstart bar.  I don't wait for legions of menus to pop up at me.  

Do you really use the rest of your screen during the <2 seconds it takes to start a program?

And again, the problem isn't which way is better, because it's obviously subjective and we're going to get nowhere arguing over it. The problem is that those of us who don't like it are still forced into the new way. I am not a PC (last time I checked I was human), and Windows 7 was someone else's idea.

[bob171123]

@scgtrp said:

@belgariontheking said:

I see the new start menu as an improvement.  I don't miss the old pop out menu system that could take up my entire screen.  I click, type about 4 characters, and click on the program I want, and that's only if that program isn't already on my improved quickstart bar.  I don't wait for legions of menus to pop up at me.  

Do you really use the rest of your screen during the <2 seconds it takes to start a program?

And again, the problem isn't which way is better, because it's obviously subjective and we're going to get nowhere arguing over it. The problem is that those of us who don't like it are still forced into the new way. I am not a PC (last time I checked I was human), and Windows 7 was someone else's idea.

 

You're not really forced since you have to purchase windows 7 first. Also, you can't realistically expect it to always look and act the same. Technology changes constantly and computers change faster than all other technologies. If you're stuck with something old you're begging to get hacked, especially since it is windows. If you really hate how it looks, google how to make windows 7 look like windows xp, although the vast majority of results are actually how to make windows xp look like windows 7, so not a lot of people agree with you.

People used to search-and-peck typing don't like touch-typing at the onset either, then they see how efficient they become when they let their fingers do the typing instead of their eyes. Windows 7 also takes care of a lot of things that you normally had to do yourself in earlier windows versions, freeing your attention to do other things.

[scgtrp]

@bob171123 said:

You're not really forced since you have to purchase windows 7 first. Also, you can't realistically expect it to always look and act the same. Technology changes constantly and computers change faster than all other technologies. If you're stuck with something old you're begging to get hacked, especially since it is windows. If you really hate how it looks, google how to make windows 7 look like windows xp, although the vast majority of results are actually how to make windows xp look like windows 7, so not a lot of people agree with you.

I don't give a crap if it LOOKS like classic/Luna/Aero. I want it to WORK sanely. And it shouldn't take third party modifications to do it. There is a small but non-trivial percentage of users who want the old start menu back. And no, I can't downgrade to XP because I run 7 on a laptop that came with it, I don't have a spare XP license, and too many programs will be leaving it behind.

 

Also what most people call "touch typing" is stupid. I type at 60-70wpm with 7 of my fingers and doing it the "right" way actually slows me down. Not to mention that that analogy doesn't even apply here - confining the menu to a tiny space is by no definition "doing things you had to do yourself in earlier versions".

[bob171123]

@scgtrp said:

@bob171123 said:

You're not really forced since you have to purchase windows 7 first. Also, you can't realistically expect it to always look and act the same. Technology changes constantly and computers change faster than all other technologies. If you're stuck with something old you're begging to get hacked, especially since it is windows. If you really hate how it looks, google how to make windows 7 look like windows xp, although the vast majority of results are actually how to make windows xp look like windows 7, so not a lot of people agree with you.

I don't give a crap if it LOOKS like classic/Luna/Aero. I want it to WORK sanely. And it shouldn't take third party modifications to do it. There is a small but non-trivial percentage of users who want the old start menu back. And no, I can't downgrade to XP because I run 7 on a laptop that came with it, I don't have a spare XP license, and too many programs will be leaving it behind.

 

Also what most people call "touch typing" is stupid. I type at 60-70wpm with 7 of my fingers and doing it the "right" way actually slows me down. Not to mention that that analogy doesn't even apply here - confining the menu to a tiny space is by no definition "doing things you had to do yourself in earlier versions".

 

Then don't buy the damn thing and stop complaining that everyone else is moving on. If you were dumb enough to buy something you ultimately hate, that's your own damn fault. Every decent PC dealer allows you to demo the product at the store, you should have known what you were getting into.

[blakeyrat]

@scgtrp said:

I don't give a crap if it LOOKS like classic/Luna/Aero. I want it to WORK sanely. And it shouldn't take third party modifications to do it. There is a small but non-trivial percentage of users who want the old start menu back. And no, I can't downgrade to XP because I run 7 on a laptop that came with it, I don't have a spare XP license, and too many programs will be leaving it behind.

 

Also what most people call "touch typing" is stupid. I type at 60-70wpm with 7 of my fingers and doing it the "right" way actually slows me down. Not to mention that that analogy doesn't even apply here - confining the menu to a tiny space is by no definition "doing things you had to do yourself in earlier versions".

 

Or, in other words, waaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!

[scgtrp]

@blakeyrat said:

Or, in other words, waaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!

"I can't argue with your point so I'll just say you're whining just because you disagree with me."

[bob171123]

@scgtrp said:

@blakeyrat said:

Or, in other words, waaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!

"I can't argue with your point so I'll just say you're whining just because you disagree with me."

 

It's like arguing with someone who got po'd after buying a honda because it's nothing like his old model t.

[blakeyrat]

@scgtrp said:

"I can't argue with your point so I'll just say you're whining just because you disagree with me."

I'd love to actually talk usability, but all you're giving me is whine, whine, whine.

I know that Microsoft does more usability tests in a week than most companies do in a year... I've been a part of panel many times, in fact, for everything from Office apps to video games. Believe me, they've already studied the Start menu problem backwards, forwards, up and down. And usability is a particular focus of mine, at least on the web.

You're not giving me anything solid to debate with, though. It's all just, "I don't like X." No, that's not good enough. It would be if you were the only Windows user ever, but you're not-- there are literally billions of Windows users. If you are arguing that X is bad, you have to show it's bad for the majority of Windows users, not just you.

[scgtrp]

@blakeyrat said:

I'd love to actually talk usability, but all you're giving me is whine, whine, whine.

I know that Microsoft does more usability tests in a week than most companies do in a year... I've been a part of panel many times, in fact, for everything from Office apps to video games. Believe me, they've already studied the Start menu problem backwards, forwards, up and down. And usability is a particular focus of mine, at least on the web.

You're not giving me anything solid to debate with, though. It's all just, "I don't like X." No, that's not good enough. It would be if you were the only Windows user ever, but you're not-- there are literally billions of Windows users. If you are arguing that X is bad, you have to show it's bad for the majority of Windows users, not just you.

So all that matters is the majority of Windows users? I am, as I showed above, not at all the only person who doesn't like the new menu. The fact that we're outnumbered does not make it acceptable to remove features. You want to add a new menu style? Go ahead. Want to make it the default? Sure, why not? But there's no good reason to remove the option to use the old one, when it's preferred by quite a few users.

What you seem to still be missing here is that usability is completely subjective. The fact is, whether you like it or not, that you can't measure people's likes and dislikes by anything BUT "I like X" or "I don't like X". You also can't just put a room full of people in front of computers and say they magically represent everyone who will ever use your product. Let's say there are 3 billion Windows users around the world (I've got no idea what the actual numbers are, but you said billions so this will have to do). Let's also say that 0.5% of us prefer the classic menu (although I'd be very surprised if it was that low). That's 15 million people you've just blithely ignored the opinions of.

I can understand not wanting to provide 50 different menus to choose from, but restricting everyone to just one is stupid and just another way to say "hey, we're in control and you aren't!" to your customers. Especially when you're off advertising how Windows 7 incorporates ideas from all its users.

Again the key issue here is not which menu is superior. It's whether I get to CHOOSE which menu I want to use.

By the way, since you claim to be a usability expert, may I ask you what would be wrong with something like this? You get your search and I get my expanding menu. Again, it doesn't even have to be the default. Just give me a choice.

[Mole]

@bob171123 said:

Then don't buy the damn thing and stop complaining that everyone else is moving on. If you were dumb enough to buy something you ultimately hate, that's your own damn fault. Every decent PC dealer allows you to demo the product at the store, you should have known what you were getting into.

Compatibility forces you to buy the damn thing. There are programs and games which only work with Vista, it will not be long before they only work with 7. So it doesn't matter if it you hate it or not, some time you will HAVE to use it regardless, so thats really a dumb statement. You might as well settle with it now and get used to it before things like this happen. 

[tdb]

@Mole said:

@bob171123 said:

Then don't buy the damn thing and stop complaining that everyone else is moving on. If you were dumb enough to buy something you ultimately hate, that's your own damn fault. Every decent PC dealer allows you to demo the product at the store, you should have known what you were getting into.

Compatibility forces you to buy the damn thing. There are programs and games which only work with Vista, it will not be long before they only work with 7. So it doesn't matter if it you hate it or not, some time you will HAVE to use it regardless, so thats really a dumb statement. You might as well settle with it now and get used to it before things like this happen. 

Most laptops also come with Win7 these days. There are some manufacturers willing to sell laptops with an alternative OS or no bundled OS at all, but they're a minority.

[ender]

@tdb said:

Most laptops also come with Win7 these days. There are some manufacturers willing to sell laptops with an alternative OS or no bundled OS at all, but they're a minority.

You can get pretty much everything without an OS, as long as you're insistent enough. Also, at least HP still gives you XP downgrade CDs with their business line products.

[fatdog]

Listen up you all whiny little bitches.

Are you being sexually forced to buy or use windows 7?
You know your way is the right one, and having to do thing differently keeps you up at night?
Do you go to internet forums to vent all the frustration of being ignored by evil Microsoft?

Stop complaining and do something about it!

Boicot Windows 7. Stick it to the man! Use Mac, millions are doing it. You will be cool and not a linux nerd, or a windows geek. You will get ladies (yes! female humans) flirting with you the minute you get your macpodtouch out.

Trust me, you'll be having so much sex with wild wild hot women. (yes! human females), that you won't care anymore about the latest game or whatever else is keeping you from being an alpha male.

Or you could use linux, and be a Pollitically Correct nerd, but at least (I guess) you can configure the damn thing exactly like you like it. What about games not working on linux? Well write a letter to your congressman, and boicott those evil companies that won't release a version of your game for your 10 years old OS, or the non profitable market of the pengiun.

.... or get a damn Xbox os PS...

[blakeyrat]

@scgtrp said:

What you seem to still be missing here is that usability is completely subjective.

 

Oh God, please tell me you don't write software with a UI. That sentence is completely wrong.

There are bits of UI design that are completely subjective, for example, whether the border of that menu be blue or dark red. That's subjective. Measuring the performance of it? That's objective.

The reason Slashdotters (and you) don't believe that UI design is mostly objective is because measuring it requires *gasp* leaving your basement and talking to actual users-- you know those scary things you some times hear about during support calls. Eeeew! Ick!! Microsoft, on the other hand, thankfully hires developers and UI designers who understand that psychological concepts are measurable, who have read the literature in the field, and who have the time and budget to perform actual tests with actual users. They also have an extensive institutional database of "oh yeah, we did that a few years ago, it was a terrible idea" to feed off it.

Most companies, on the other hand, either 1) don't give a shit about usability at all (IBM, Sun, Oracle), 2) Make things look pretty and just assume they're usable too (Apple, Sony, the bit of Microsoft that builds WMP), or 2) Waits for Microsoft to develop a similar app, then rips-off their UI ideas (the entire open source world). Note that Apple used to be far and away the leader here, but since they've absorbed the NeXT staff, their usability design has gone into the toilet.

How long it takes a user to complete a task using a certain UI is measurable. I have no idea why you would assume it is not... do stopwatches not exist on planet Scgtrp? The learning curve of the UI can be measured by giving the user several tasks over a period of time, and measuring the delta between them.

The reason you're even griping in this thread has nothing to do with usability, you just hate learning new things. So far you've demonstrated nothing concrete to prove that the "new" Start menu design (which, BTW, is like 3 years old now) is objectively worse than the old. People in this thread have given plenty of examples of how it's better.

Here's the deal: when you get a bunch of people together, plan an experiment, give them the task, watch them complete the task with both Start menus, time their performance, and document it all with scientific and statistical rigor... and if your results agree with your knee-jerk opinion... THEN come back here and post.

@scgtrp said:

The fact is, whether you like it or not, that you can't measure people's likes and dislikes by anything BUT "I like X" or "I don't like X".

Chew on this: people can still be more efficient with a more efficient UI, even if they don't like it. Most people who don't like the Office 2007 ribbon are probably more efficient on it, if measured objectively. "Like" doesn't really work into the equation.

@scgtrp said:

You also can't just put a room full of people in front of computers and say they magically represent everyone who will ever use your product.

Of course not, but you can do enough studies to reach statistical significance. Which is all that matters.

@scgtrp said:

Let's say there are 3 billion Windows users around the world (I've got no idea what the actual numbers are, but you said billions so this will have to do). Let's also say that 0.5% of us prefer the classic menu (although I'd be very surprised if it was that low). That's 15 million people you've just blithely ignored the opinions of.

1) Microsoft's goal is to make a Start menu that's more discoverable and more efficient, not to make one that people like. So the number of people who "like" one or the other don't figure into it.

2) You'll probably find this insulting, but making those 15 million people happy isn't worth as much (to Microsoft) as the cost of supporting two different Start menus in Windows. Every checkbox you add into an OS basically doubles your QA time. Resources are not infinite. (And again, I hope you're not writing software *of any kind* if you don't understand this concept.)

@scgtrp said:

I can understand not wanting to provide 50 different menus to choose from, but restricting everyone to just one is stupid and just another way to say "hey, we're in control and you aren't!" to your customers. Especially when you're off advertising how Windows 7 incorporates ideas from all its users.

No, it's a way of lowering their QA burden. QA being one of those things that Microsoft critics have nailed them in the past.

@scgtrp said:

Again the key issue here is not which menu is superior. It's whether I get to CHOOSE which menu I want to use.

Seriously? You don't care how poor it is, you'd rather use the poor version then spend 10 minutes learning the new menu? There's hardly even a point to debating with a mindset with that.

@scgtrp said:

By the way, since you claim to be a usability expert,

No, I don't. Not with desktop software... I do usability on the web, mostly for forms and checkout funnels, and always data-backed.

I don't know what variations Microsoft tried and which they discarded for Windows, and as far as I know that team doesn't have anybody writing an MSDN blog. (The Office 2007 Ribbon, on the other hand, was extensively blogged... if you're interested in usability, it's a great read: http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/)

@scgtrp said:

Again, it doesn't even have to be the default. Just give me a choice.

Choice = more features exposed. More features exposed = more bugs exposed. Again, this is software development 101 here.

If you write a program with a UI, I'd love to see it. I bet it's a complete disaster.

[PJH]

@blakeyrat said:

@scgtrp said:

Let's say there are 3 billion Windows users around the world (I've got no idea what the actual numbers are, but you said billions so this will have to do). Let's also say that 0.5% of us prefer the classic menu (although I'd be very surprised if it was that low). That's 15 million people you've just blithely ignored the opinions of.

1. Microsoft's goal is to make a Start menu that's more discoverable and more efficient, not to make one that people like. So the number of people who "like"
   one or the other don't figure into it.

Presuming this is purely a gripe over the Start Menu (as opposed to, say, the Ribbon I snipped from above,) how much (extra?) time are these millions of people spending with their shiney new Start Menus (compared to, say usng their computer to post on here,) that it's become a major problem to gripe about?



Rough (guestimated) percentages will do. Are they spending so long on working the new menus that they can't open their wordprocessors to type at 1 wpm or something? scgtrp, feel free to use hyperbole in your reply if it makes you feel better.

[tdb]

@blakeyrat said:

@scgtrp said:

What you seem to still be missing here is that usability is completely subjective.

 

Oh God, please tell me you don't write software with a UI. That sentence is completely wrong.

There are bits of UI design that are completely subjective, for example, whether the border of that menu be blue or dark red. That's subjective. Measuring the performance of it? That's objective.

Are you seriously claiming that every user thinks the same way and the same UI concepts work equally well for them? Because that's what the word "objective" implies - that there is a set of rules by which you can measure the thing, without any human factors. Can you take a UI and produce a number or set of numbers describing its performance without needing any people to test it? If not, it's hardly objective.

I've had the misfortune of knowing people that apparently can't grasp the simplest forms of logic - for them, using a computer program consists of memorizing the menu item labels or toolbar icons. Reorder the menus and they're hopelessly lost. Put them in front of different language version of the program and they can't find anything from the menus. Change the icon theme and they'll spend minutes looking for a toolbar button. Even the ribbon will probably be way too complex for them to achieve maximum performance - an even simpler toolbar with only the buttons they need would be better.

I like to use keyboard shortcuts and only touch the mouse when I'm doing something that really benefits from it. I like Vim better than Emacs because its shortcuts require less keypresses. My mind can hold together the details of very complex tasks, as long as there's some sort of logic in it. when using graphical programs, I generally hide all toolbars and menu bars I don't absolutely need to maximize my working area. The ribbon would likely cause little if any difference to my performance, since I wouldn't use it. However, take my keyboard shortcuts away, and performance will plummet.

I acknowledge that these two UI concepts - toolbars and keyboard shortcuts - are largely orthogonal, and can coexist peacefully in the same software. Still, they're vastly different, and different users may like one or the other, or both.

@blakeyrat said:

How long it takes a user to complete a task using a certain UI is measurable. I have no idea why you would assume it is not... do stopwatches not exist on planet Scgtrp? The learning curve of the UI can be measured by giving the user several tasks over a period of time, and measuring the delta between them.

Sure it is. But what parameters are you using for measuring it? Do you ignore the users' experience with similar UIs, or do you give them a three-day course before measuring? Do you care about the users' professional knowledge related to the task? Exactly how do you define the task - is "it works" enough or does it need to be well done?

Let me give you an example. Suppose the task is to create a multi-page brochure with Word. A clueless user will write the text, press return at the end of each line, indent and align text with spaces, and generally commit every possibly atrocity in word processing. An inexperienced user will know about paragraphs and formatting them, but will likely apply character formatting separately to each passage of text. An experienced user will first define the styles he needs, and then write the document using them. They might all spend a comparable amount of time, but who really performed best? What do you think will happen if you give a continuation task of changing the formatting a bit?

@blakeyrat said:

@scgtrp said:

You also can't just put a room full of people in front of computers and say they magically represent everyone who will ever use your product.

Of course not, but you can do enough studies to reach statistical significance. Which is all that matters.

@scgtrp said:

Let's say there are 3 billion Windows users around the world (I've got no idea what the actual numbers are, but you said billions so this will have to do). Let's also say that 0.5% of us prefer the classic menu (although I'd be very surprised if it was that low). That's 15 million people you've just blithely ignored the opinions of.

1) Microsoft's goal is to make a Start menu that's more discoverable and more efficient, not to make one that people like. So the number of people who "like" one or the other don't figure into it.

2) You'll probably find this insulting, but making those 15 million people happy isn't worth as much (to Microsoft) as the cost of supporting two different Start menus in Windows. Every checkbox you add into an OS basically doubles your QA time. Resources are not infinite. (And again, I hope you're not writing software *of any kind* if you don't understand this concept.)

This is a valid, if unfortunate point. Fortunately I can always use some other software if Microsoft's doesn't suit me (and it doesn't, right from the ideological level. So I use Linux instead.)

[Ilya_Ehrenburg]

 @blakeyrat said:

Measuring the performance of it? That's objective.

 How long it takes a user to complete a task using a certain UI is measurable.

However, given two reasonable UIs, it wouldn't be surprising if some users are more efficient with one and some with the other. If both groups are large enough, that is a strong reason to have both UIs as an option.

@blakeyrat said:

Chew on this: people can still be more efficient with a more efficient UI, even if they don't like it. Most people who don't like the Office 2007 ribbon are probably more efficient on it, if measured objectively. "Like" doesn't really work into the equation.

You're almost wrong there, "like" does work into the equation. If your dislike is strong enough, it can easily slow you down so much that you're less efficient, even if 90+% of users are much more efficient with that UI. Of course such intense dislike is generally rare, probably too rare to care about. So from (in this case) Microsoft's point of view, "like" only [i]really[/i] works into the equation if dislike is widespread enough.

[blakeyrat]

@tdb said:

Are you seriously claiming that every user thinks the same way and the same UI concepts work equally well for them?

 

No, I'm not claiming that. I also never said that. So I have no clue where you're getting it from.

Of course not every user thinks in an identical fashion, thus the use of statistics. Statistically-derived data is as objective as directly measured data.

@tdb said:

Sure it is. But what parameters are you using for measuring it?

You'd have to ask Microsoft, I don't know for sure, and like I said before, they haven't published any material (that I'm aware of) on the Start menu design process. I don't know why everybody is assuming I'd know anything about it.

[scgtrp]

blakeyrat: So I save half a second starting a program, at the expense of having a horribly unpleasant experience because some designer was too narrow-minded to make the menu pop out like every other menu on earth? Give me choice and a couple of potential minor bugs any day over being forced into something.

Let's start building cars with hollow plastic seats (you know, like the old tiny Fisher-Price ones). They're lighter and so will let the car get slightly better gas mileage. That's all that matters anyway, not whether you like it or not. And don't give people buying new cars the option to switch, because that's going to be a QA nightmare. You know, because it takes longer to test two seats than one.

You also mentioned making the menu more "discoverable". There was already a giant annoying speech bubble that popped up the first time you logged in pointing to it. I don't know how you can possibly miss it. I was going to continue bashing your points but then some other people did it for me.

[blakeyrat]

@Ilya Ehrenburg said:

You're almost wrong there, "like" does work into the equation. If your dislike is strong enough, it can easily slow you down so much that you're less efficient, even if 90+% of users are much more efficient with that UI.

 

Only if you stop between every paragraph to write rants on TheDailyWTF.com.

@Ilya Ehrenburg said:

Of course such intense dislike is generally rare, probably too rare to care about. So from (in this case) Microsoft's point of view, "like" only really works into the equation if dislike is widespread enough.

Well, they probably aren't designing Windows for crazy people who rant about every little tweak to the Start menu, that is true. Anybody that crazy is probably already using Linux anyway.

[scgtrp]

@blakeyrat said:

I don't know why everybody is assuming I'd know anything about it. 

@blakeyrat said:

I've been a part of panel many times, in fact, for everything from Office apps to video games.

 

[blakeyrat]

@scgtrp said:

blakeyrat: So I save half a second starting a program, at the expense of having a horribly unpleasant experience because some designer was too narrow-minded to make the menu pop out like every other menu on earth?

 

It's only unpleasant because you won't get the fuck over it.

@scgtrp said:

Give me choice and a couple of potential minor bugs any day over being forced into something.

Then use a different OS, because you're not making that decision for Microsoft. Tough shit for you.

@scgtrp said:

You also mentioned making the menu more "discoverable". There was already a giant annoying speech bubble that popped up the first time you logged in pointing to it. I don't know how you can possibly miss it. I was going to continue bashing your points but then some other people did it for me.

They did? All the responses I read pretty much confirmed you're an obsessive loony.

Look, usability aside, let's explain this in an easier way:

The Start menu has changed. You now have two choices:

1) Fucking COPE with it and stop whining like a toddler

2) Move to another OS

Make one of them.

Considering it's been three years now, and you haven't taken either of those options, I'm just going to assume you get your kicks from whining like a toddler.

[tdb]

@blakeyrat said:

@tdb said:

Are you seriously claiming that every user thinks the same way and the same UI concepts work equally well for them?

 

No, I'm not claiming that. I also never said that. So I have no clue where you're getting it from.

Of course not every user thinks in an identical fashion, thus the use of statistics. Statistically-derived data is as objective as directly measured data.

@tdb said:

Sure it is. But what parameters are you using for measuring it?

You'd have to ask Microsoft, I don't know for sure, and like I said before, they haven't published any material (that I'm aware of) on the Start menu design process. I don't know why everybody is assuming I'd know anything about it.

Both of those arguments stemmed from your use of the word "objective". Based on your explanation, your definition of it obviously doesn't exactly match mine. I'd like to point out this sentence from Wikipedia: While there is no universally accepted articulation of objectivity, a proposition is generally considered to be objectively true when its truth conditions are "mind-independent"—that is, not the result of any judgments made by a conscious entity.

[scgtrp]

@blakeyrat said:

Look, usability aside, let's explain this in an easier way:

The Start menu has changed. You now have two choices:

1) Fucking COPE with it and stop whining like a toddler

2) Move to another OS

Make one of them.

Considering it's been three years now, and you haven't taken either of those options, I'm just going to assume you get your kicks from whining like a toddler.

1) I never "upgraded" to Vista because it was horrible. I have not been on 7 for 3 years. XP is quickly moving toward "no longer an option" so I'm pretty much forced onto 7 if I want to use Windows.

2) I already dual-boot with Linux. You can't magically run every Windows program/game in existence on Linux. It just doesn't work like that. I'd expect people here of all places would know that.

 

Your "do it our way or fuck off" mentality disturbs me.

[fatdog]

@scgtrp said:

Your "do it our way or fuck off" mentality disturbs me.

So how many "other ways" choices you had before VISTA/W7?

You don't like the NEW way because you are afraid of change, and getting out of your comfort zone is what mentally disturbs you. Let it out man. Leap into the unknown, dare to be free of your chains.

Throw away your Star Trek pijamas, loose your Superman underwear. Try a new drug, or stop doing drugs. Do something different. Stop doing your bed every morning. Be wild and bold, try pressing the tooth paste from the middle of the tube. You can do it man! We know you can do it!!! Cut the chains, fly brother fly!!!

Praise the lord! Halleluyah!!!!

[bob171123]

@scgtrp said:

Your "do it our way or fuck off" mentality disturbs me.

 

Why? Are they obliged to cater to your desires in a new OS? They put the product out there, and the consumers decide whether or not it will be a success. So far, it is a success. Perhaps it will be easier for you to swallow if it is said as "do it our way or buy another OS." In the end, all Windows cares about is maximizing its profits, and if it can modify the UI so more people will like it, it will do it. If a small percentage of users don't like it, but they're gaining a much larger percentage of new users, then tough luck for the users who don't like it. Microsoft will miss you until you get replaced by someone else.

@tdb said:

I've had the misfortune of knowing people that apparently can't grasp the simplest forms of logic - for them, using a computer program consists of memorizing the menu item labels or toolbar icons. Reorder the menus and they're hopelessly lost. Put them in front of different language version of the program and they can't find anything from the menus. Change the icon theme and they'll spend minutes looking for a toolbar button. Even the ribbon will probably be way too complex for them to achieve maximum performance - an even simpler toolbar with only the buttons they need would be better.

No, they grasp logic. In fact, I'd argue they grasp it better than you, since they eventually expect something to be a certain way, and stop dedicating resources to re-learning it every time. These are the kinds of shortcuts you need to be productive. Logic will not make you prodcutive. It will make you correct, but not productive. Plus, I assure you that once users do find the buttons they need on that complex toolbar, all other buttons will simply be white noise, until they find that they need another button and memorize its position on the toolbar. They'll memorize the toolbar and leave it at that.

@tdb said:

I like to use keyboard shortcuts and only touch the mouse when I'm doing something that really benefits from it. I like Vim better than Emacs because its shortcuts require less keypresses. My mind can hold together the details of very complex tasks, as long as there's some sort of logic in it. when using graphical programs, I generally hide all toolbars and menu bars I don't absolutely need to maximize my working area. The ribbon would likely cause little if any difference to my performance, since I wouldn't use it. However, take my keyboard shortcuts away, and performance will plummet.

 You proved my point and contradicted yourself in the same post. If someone scrambled the keys on your keyboard, you would be hopelessly lost, for who knows how long, where a normal person would gripe at first, then learn the new layout and move on from there.

[scgtrp]

@bob171123 said:

Why? Are they obliged to cater to your desires in a new OS? They put the product out there, and the consumers decide whether or not it will be a success. So far, it is a success. Perhaps it will be easier for you to swallow if it is said as "do it our way or buy another OS." In the end, all Windows cares about is maximizing its profits, and if it can modify the UI so more people will like it, it will do it. If a small percentage of users don't like it, but they're gaining a much larger percentage of new users, then tough luck for the users who don't like it. Microsoft will miss you until you get replaced by someone else.

You're still missing the point. They already HAD the functionality I want, and they REMOVED IT without a good reason. That's quite different from not wanting to add features just because I said so. They can screw with the menu all they want but there was no reason to remove the option to use the classic menu. It would not hurt the people who like the new one at all.

[blakeyrat]

 @scgtrp said:

@blakeyrat said:

Look, usability aside, let's explain this in an easier way:

The Start menu has changed. You now have two choices:

1) Fucking COPE with it and stop whining like a toddler

2) Move to another OS

Make one of them.

Considering it's been three years now, and you haven't taken either of those options, I'm just going to assume you get your kicks from whining like a toddler.

1) I never "upgraded" to Vista because it was horrible. I have not been on 7 for 3 years. XP is quickly moving toward "no longer an option" so I'm pretty much forced onto 7 if I want to use Windows.

2) I already dual-boot with Linux. You can't magically run every Windows program/game in existence on Linux. It just doesn't work like that. I'd expect people here of all places would know that.

 

Your "do it our way or fuck off" mentality disturbs me.

Ok, so what exactly are you trying to accomplish here?

1) We've established that Microsoft has changed how it works, and they're not changing it back.

2) You've established that you'll continue using Windows.

What is the point of you whining here? Do you think Steve Ballmer is going to drop into this forum and instantly address all your needs? What exactly are you trying to accomplish, other than pissing us all off? Please let me know.

[scgtrp]

I cannot resist arguing against someone who thinks their way of doing something is magically right because some "usability study" somewhere said so.

[Nyquist]

@fatdog said:

Oh noes! It's the Ribbons!!! Ribbons are hardz and complicated!!!

 

^ this. What is so damned difficult about the ribbon?

[bob171123]

Here, restore the menu to the same old tired way you're used to using. Pin it on your taskbar and forgot the start menu orb ever existed. Yeah, it doesn't give you the option to use it that way out of the box. Big fucking deal. If you went and searched for it instead of bitching you would have found it. Have a nice fucking day.

[bob171123]

Here is how you can make the taskbar buttons more like they were in previous versions, here's how to add the 'Run' shortcut to the start menu, and here's how to get the quick launch toolbar from XP. I'll post links to more guides on how to revert the look and function of Win7 to WinXP as I find them.

[tdb]

@bob171123 said:

@tdb said:

I've had the misfortune of knowing people that apparently can't
grasp the simplest forms of logic - for them, using a computer program
consists of memorizing the menu item labels or toolbar icons. Reorder
the menus and they're hopelessly lost. Put them in front of different
language version of the program and they can't find anything from the
menus. Change the icon theme and they'll spend minutes looking for a
toolbar button. Even the ribbon will probably be way too complex for
them to achieve maximum performance - an even simpler toolbar with only
the buttons they need would be better.

No, they grasp logic. In fact, I'd argue they grasp it better than you, since they eventually expect something to be a certain way, and stop dedicating resources to re-learning it every time. These are the kinds of shortcuts you need to be productive. Logic will not make you prodcutive. It will make you correct, but not productive. Plus, I assure you that once users do find the buttons they need on that complex toolbar, all other buttons will simply be white noise, until they find that they need another button and memorize its position on the toolbar. They'll memorize the toolbar and leave it at that.

Well yes, they get the job done. Much like calculating values with a pocket calculator and entering them in a spreadsheet does indeed get the correct values appear in the cells. Or pressing return until you get a new page in a word processor. There are people who do these things, you know.

@bob171123 said:

@tdb said:

I like to use keyboard shortcuts and only touch the mouse when I'm doing something that really benefits from it. I like Vim better than Emacs because its shortcuts require less keypresses. My mind can hold together the details of very complex tasks, as long as there's some sort of logic in it. when using graphical programs, I generally hide all toolbars and menu bars I don't absolutely need to maximize my working area. The ribbon would likely cause little if any difference to my performance, since I wouldn't use it. However, take my keyboard shortcuts away, and performance will plummet.

 You proved my point and contradicted yourself in the same post. If someone scrambled the keys on your keyboard, you would be hopelessly lost, for who knows how long, where a normal person would gripe at first, then learn the new layout and move on from there.

Scrambling the shortcuts would amount to removing them for a while, which I already admitted would destroy my performance. Switching the keyboard layout would effectively lock me out of my computer since I couldn't type my password anymore - unless I was already in, in which case I'd just change the layout back. If some prankster decided to take off the keycaps and scramble them, it'd take maybe half an hour to fix, but on the other hand I could just get an unscrambled keyboard and fix the scrambled one at my leisure.

[bob171123]

I don't care what they do with their calculators or with their word processors, you ridiculed them for remembering a simple shortcut to their useful commands, and then you try to inflate your ego yet again by citing other stupid things you perceive the general population does on a regular basis. Also, what sort of 'simplest form of logic' are they failing to grasp when they do these things? Can you rigorously define what your 'simplest form of logic' is, with no room for interpretation?

[tdb]

@bob171123 said:

I don't care what they do with their calculators or with their word processors, you ridiculed them for remembering a simple shortcut to their useful commands, and then you try to inflate your ego yet again by citing other stupid things you perceive the general population does on a regular basis. Also, what sort of 'simplest form of logic' are they failing to grasp when they do these things? Can you rigorously define what your 'simplest form of logic' is, with no room for interpretation?

All right, I see that was a bad choice of words on my part. What I meant is that these users have no clue what they are doing - they want to get a sum of a series of numbers but don't know how a spreadsheet works, so they do it the only way they know. And yes, I realize these users are a minority, just as much as the power users.

Anyway, we're getting way off the point, which was that different types of UIs are suitable for different types of people.

[belgariontheking]

@scgtrp said:

those of us who don't like it are still forced into the new way.

Well I thought you were full of shit on this, so I tried to figure out how to switch it back to winxp mode, but I couldn't find it.  So I guess you are stuck with the better way.  Poor you.