Unnecessary sign



  • Found this the other day driving around town. Not really a WTF, just seems unnecessary.



  •  So that's what all those colored lights on the streets are for... and I was wondering why everyone was honking at me.



  • Yeah I've seen more of this kind of shit creeping in on UK roads too. Most of them leave me thinking along the lines of "if you didn't realise that already, WTF are you doing driving? And you probably can't read anyway."
    One of my favourites (paraphrasing from memory) was along the lines of "do not proceed when barrier is down" right in front of a fucking great barrier arm across the road. "REALLY? SO I'M NOT ON A HOLLYWOOD STUNT SET!?". [/rant]



  • @Zagyg said:

    Yeah I've seen more of this kind of shit creeping in on UK roads too
    Well, to be honest the UK has a tendency to warn people a lot. Look left/right, mind the gap, etc. It was quite weird when I visited. I was more used to my watch-where-you're-going-or-lose-a-limb culture.



  • We could do with a load of those in London at cyclist eye-level. They seem to be the only ones who haven't worked out that red means stop...



  • @moogal said:

    We could do with a load of those in
    London at cyclist eye-level. They seem to be the only ones who haven't
    worked out that red means stop...

    When riding a road bike with clipless pedals, it takes a bit to get your feet situated; it's much easier to not stop.  I have a tendency to mostly stop 15 feet behind the stoplight or next car and creep forward or ride in circles until it turns green.

    (Or, maybe I just suck...)



  • @moogal said:

    We could do with a load of those in London at cyclist eye-level. They seem to be the only ones who haven't worked out that red means stop...

     

    Indeed. Not to derail the thread, but: I live in Manchester, in the UK and I don't drive, I cycle everywhere. To work, to see friends, or just for fun. And I stick by the rules. And it really really bugs me when cyclists run red lights, or jump up on the pavement, etc. 

     You can't complain about being cut up or run down by cars (which also happens too often, btw) if you don't obey the rules of the road yourself.

     

    EDIT: Nocturnal beat me to the post. I use MTB clipless pedals like these and I've never had a problem. I've used proper cleats a couple of times on the track, but thats not the same, so I couldn't say.

     Also, while we're on the topic, I hate when they mix bike lanes with footpaths. Thats just asking for people to get hurt.



  • TRWTF is that the sign is wrong. You don't wait for green, you wait for red to be gone.

    If the green lights are broken then the traffic-light still functions as normal, it won't go into failure mode until a red light is broken. So you can see a red goto no lights situation on the street, which means "GO GO GO"



    Unless ofcourse, it starts to blink yellow, then it's broken, and you should be careful.



  • @Daid said:

    Unless ofcourse, it starts to blink yellow, then it's broken, and you should be careful.

    Ah, but what if the yellow light is broken? Clearly seeing green is the only way to be sure that running somebody over won't be your fault.



  • I'm guessing that's the same as the "Delayed Green" signs we have around here.  The traffic in the opposite direction gets the green first, usually to allow left turns, while you have to wait a few more seconds at the red.  So the sign is there to say "pay attention to the light and not the cars coming towards you, dumbass."  Obviously it's still unnecessary because 1) you should know to watch the light and 2) if you're not looking at the light, you probably haven't seen the sign, either.  But there is a purpose other than to remind you what the pretty hanging colors mean.

     



  • While not quite as bad as this sign, we have one that says "Left turn must yield on green." or something to that effect near where I work

    To be fair, though, this particular light used to have separate green lights for the east-bound and west-bound traffic (the cross street is one-way south-bound, so this sign is on the west-bound side).



  •  I imagine a better phrasing would have been "No turn on red".  If it's possible to make a normally-legal turn on red at this light, the sign is telling drivers it is not permissible.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

     I imagine a better phrasing would have been "No turn on red".
    I ... I honestly never considered that possibility.  I wonder if that's what they actually meant.

     

    On an semi-related note, I was once a passenger in a car where the driver saw, at a particular four-way intersection, a "No Right On Red" sign.  Thinking he was still perfectly following traffic laws during this brief lapse in brain function, he proceeded to turn left at the red light.



  • @moogal said:

    We could do with a load of those in London at cyclist eye-level. They seem to be the only ones who haven't worked out that red means stop...

     

    It's just a tendency when you're as maneuverable as a cyclist. Here in Holland (cmiiw, but I think it is the #1 bicycle country)  its more often that cyclists don't stop for red lights than they do. Unless there is either visible police writing tickets or a really dangerous crossing.

     

    And what's with the blabbering about strapless paddles? just push the brakes and put your feet on the ground



  • @powerlord said:

    While not quite as bad as this sign, we have one that says "Left turn must yield on green." or something to that effect near where I work

    To be fair, though, this particular light used to have separate green lights for the east-bound and west-bound traffic (the cross street is one-way south-bound, so this sign is on the west-bound side).

     

    That makes sense if it used to have separate greens.  And even if it didn't, you'd be amazed how many people ignore right-of-way and just turn left immediately.

    In my city there's a T-intersection where we have two lanes ending at the cross street.  Both lanes can turn left, and the rightmost one also allows right turns.  So here's the weird part: right turns are not permitted on red, but the left arrows frequently turn green while the right one is still red.  I have yet to figure out the circumstance under which a left turn is safe but a right turn isn't.

    As usual, the Real WTF is how so many amazingly bad drivers manage to get licenses.



  • @powerlord said:

    While not quite as bad as this sign, we have one that says "Left turn must yield on green." or something to that effect near where I work

    The sign's telling you that this light does not have a dedicated left turn cycle, so when the left-turn light is green, oncoming traffic also has a green light.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

     I imagine a better phrasing would have been "No turn on red".  If it's possible to make a normally-legal turn on red at this light, the sign is telling drivers it is not permissible.

     

    Aren't "No turn on red" signs usually on the corner (like a stop sign, or possibly on the traffic pole on the far corner if there's one) rather than hanging?  I'm not saying it's impossible that both the position and the wording are non-standard, it just seems less likely.



  • I've seen a "no left turn on red light" sign once. Since we drive on the right here, I can't imagine what purpose that sign could possibly serve other than to restate what should be plainly obvious.





  •  I don't get it.  How is it unnecessary?  Seems to me it is banning left/right turns on red (whichever it is that you are allowed in your jurisdiction).  Although, normally the sign would say "NO (RIGHT|LEFT) TURNS ON RED", or, for where I am, a right arrow with a stop light on red below it and an international "no" symbol crossing them out.

     Of course, if you can't turn left OR right on red, then it's unnecessary.  Since most of the english speaking world that regularly uses this type of intersection allows one of these turns on red, you really need to tell us.



  • @dtech said:

    @moogal said:

    We could do with a load of those in London at cyclist eye-level. They seem to be the only ones who haven't worked out that red means stop...

     

    It's just a tendency when you're as maneuverable as a cyclist. Here in Holland (cmiiw, but I think it is the #1 bicycle country)  its more often that cyclists don't stop for red lights than they do. Unless there is either visible police writing tickets or a really dangerous crossing.

     

    And what's with the blabbering about strapless paddles? just push the brakes and put your feet on the ground

    The wooden shoes must make pedaling difficult.



  • @lolwtf said:

    I've seen a "no left turn on red light" sign once. Since we drive on the right here, I can't imagine what purpose that sign could possibly serve other than to restate what should be plainly obvious.
     

    In some places it is legal to make a left turn on red if you are turning from a one way street to a one way street.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    @lolwtf said:

    I've seen a "no left turn on red light" sign once. Since we drive on the right here, I can't imagine what purpose that sign could possibly serve other than to restate what should be plainly obvious.
     

    In some places it is legal to make a left turn on red if you are turning from a one way street to a one way street.

    In fact, it is my understanding that is true most places in the US, which do not have 'no turn on red' or 'no left turn on red' signs up.0

    Of course, that seems to be beyond about 2/3 of the drivers in this town, despite the fact most of them are pathologically impatient.  I've even seen an individual "patiently" wait through a red light he could've legally turned (left -the only way he could go) on, and then peeled out when the light turned green, such that he fishtailed for the roughly 150 feet1 until the next cop...  It'd be nice if more of the morons got tickets, but that was a fun one to watch.

    0 But check your local laws before blindly following the advice on someone on the Internet, who may not know the laws where you live, and possibly might not be entirely honest, either.  And I seem to recall hearing there is at least one state where left turns on red are never legal.

    1 For the curious, the intersection in question is technically a U-turn lane - but it counts, as there's only one way one can enter it, and the "2-way" street is divided by about 40 feet of median.  About 20 feet beyond the intersection, the median narrows; both directions nose together and dip about 15', to have about 3' separation (most of which is concrete) as they go under a cross street.  On the other side, they again separate.  Access to the cross street is by straight on-ramps/off-ramps where the road curves.  The cop was just pulling on to the on-ramp for that direction when the idiot got his green light.  I'm sure he would've stopped fishtailing sooner if the road was straighter there.



  • @cconroy said:

    Aren't "No turn on red" signs usually on the corner (like a stop sign, or possibly on the traffic pole on the far corner if there's one) rather than hanging?  I'm not saying it's impossible that both the position and the wording are non-standard, it just seems less likely.

    I feel the need to point out that if one is non-standard, it's likely that they either do not feel compelled to follow standards, or do not know what the standards are. As such, it's probably more likely that it would be both non-standard wording and non-standard placement.

    Back to your first question, though - I've seen them all over the place.  Including, at one intersection in Indiana, behind a much larger sign which explained where the various state highways went.  (This was, technically, in the 'stop sign' position you mentioned, but due to the occlusion, it was only visible if one was stopped just over the stop line.)

    Driving around the Massachusetts, I've seen 'no turn on red' signs almost every other conceivable location for these signs to be hidden.  Of course, signage there was always bad enough there one almost wondered if maybe the state not only had the cows lay out the roads, but also hired them to put up the road signs.



  • @Carnildo said:

    @powerlord said:
    While not quite as bad as this sign, we have one that says "Left turn must yield on green." or something to that effect near where I work

    The sign's telling you that this light does not have a dedicated left turn cycle, so when the left-turn light is green, oncoming traffic also has a green light.

    I've actually seen it in an intersection with a dedicated arrow, in the sense you're using.  There, the additional meaning it conveys is, "Yes, it's legal to turn on green, even without an arrow." Of course, that intersection was busy enough that said additional meaning was only useful late at night/early in the morning (and then, it was *really* useful, because the arrow didn't even bother...)



  • @Spectre said:

    @Daid said:
    Unless ofcourse, it starts to blink yellow, then it's broken, and you should be careful.

    Ah, but what if the yellow light is broken? Clearly seeing green is the only way to be sure that running somebody over won't be your fault.

    If it's in a 'fault' state because of a broken red light then all yellow lights will blink, chances of all yellows being broken is very slim.



  • @Daid said:

    @Spectre said:
    @Daid said:
    Unless ofcourse, it starts to blink yellow, then it's broken, and you should be careful.

    Ah, but what if the yellow light is broken? Clearly seeing green is the only way to be sure that running somebody over won't be your fault.

    If it's in a 'fault' state because of a broken red light then all yellow lights will blink, chances of all yellows being broken is very slim.
     

    Are you saying that in your area when a red globe blows it puts the entire signals into flashing amber mode?

    Around here it is simply ignored. Many signals are being replaced with LED lights now anyway, which are brighter and more reliable than the incandescent bulbs.



  • @nocturnal said:

    When riding a road bike with clipless pedals, it takes a bit to get your feet situated; it's much easier to not stop.
     

    I don't understand. Define "situated".


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @dhromed said:

    @nocturnal said:

    When riding a road bike with clipless pedals, it takes a bit to get your feet situated; it's much easier to not stop.
     

    I don't understand. Define "situated".

    It would appear they're talking about those small pedals which come with a pair of footware with the shape of the pedal moulded into the sole, thus:


     i.e. totally unsuitable for most riding that involves stopping and starting, like urban traffic for example.



  • @Daid said:

    If it's in a 'fault' state because of a broken red light then all yellow lights will blink, chances of all yellows being broken is very slim.

    That's a recipe for disaster - flashing yellow has a valid meaning (there are even assemblies that contain only a flashing yellow for one direction and a flashing red for the other direction, but normal lights will go into this mode at night), and it means that the other direction has flashing red and you have the right of way. Giving both sides flashing yellow will cause a crash. Are you sure you didn't just make this up?



  • @PJH said:

    It would appear they're talking about those small pedals which come with a pair of footware with the shape of the pedal moulded into the sole, i.e. totally unsuitable for most riding that involves stopping and starting, like urban traffic for example.

    I was unaware these items existed.

    You have averted a snide comment pertaining to the OP's total lack of bicycle skill, when it might in fact very well exceed my own.



  • @PJH said:

    Shoe with pedal

    Needs more screws.



  • @Spectre said:

    Needs more screws.
     

    That's what your mom said last night.



  • @Random832 said:

    That's a recipe for disaster - flashing yellow has a valid meaning (there are even assemblies that contain only a flashing yellow for one direction and a flashing red for the other direction, but normal lights will go into this mode at night), and it means that the other direction has flashing red and you have the right of way. Giving both sides flashing yellow will cause a crash. Are you sure you didn't just make this up?
     

     I'm pretty sure he's trolling. He stated that a "No Light" condition should be treated the same as a "Green", as it must mean the Green light is burned out. A power outage would also produce a "No Light" condition, just to show one example of where this assumption is false. You showed another- a flashing yellow to one street should be a flashing red to the other.

     Everywhere I've lived, the law is to treat a traffic light displaying no lights as a 4 way stop, unless a police officer is directing traffic.



  • @cconroy said:

    @Justice said:

    Filed under: and then a step to the right, It's just a jump to the left

     

    Filed under: Fail, tag, ordering

     

    Yeah, pretty much.  I tried to fix it but it kept resetting to this order.  I blame the forum software.



  • @lolwtf said:

    I've seen a "no left turn on red light" sign once. Since we drive on the right here, I can't imagine what purpose that sign could possibly serve other than to restate what should be plainly obvious.

    A left turn on red is legal in some places, if you're turning on to a one-way street (where you can't make a right turn) or the other side of a divided highway.



  • @tgape said:

    I feel the need to point out that if one is non-standard, it's likely that they either do not feel compelled to follow standards, or do not know what the standards are. As such, it's probably more likely that it would be both non-standard wording and non-standard placement.

    A quick Internet search indicates the sign is most likely from Pennsylvania, a state that seems to love bad signage as much as Mass.

     

    @tgape said:

    Driving around the Massachusetts, I've seen 'no turn on red' signs almost every other conceivable location for these signs to be hidden.

    There's your problem: never pay attention to signage in Mass.  It just exists to confound non-Massholes.

     

    @tgape said:

    Of course, signage there was always bad enough there one almost wondered if maybe the state not only had the cows lay out the roads, but also hired them to put up the road signs.

    The "cow path" thing is actually a myth.  The roads and signage were actually created by sadists (see also: rotaries).  Road and signage construction is simply a way for the Mafia/unions/Democrats to launder money.  Any actual construction or work by state employees is incidental and is grounds for termination and permanent relegation to the welfare rolls.



  • @Random832 said:

    flashing yellow has a valid meaning
    and that meaning is "Proceed with caution." Although some intersections are configured to revert at night to uncontrolled in the manner you describe, at most intersections a fault with the control computer will cause it to give all directions flashing yellow, which drivers interpret as "go when no one else is going." If there's other traffic, generally normal stop sign rules apply, as though the signal was flashing red or completely out. In my experience though lamp faults do not cause a signal to revert to flashing yellow unless both all the green lamps and all the red lamps for a direction have failed.

    [edit]At intersections where one direction is flashing red and the other direction is flashing yellow, the people with the flashing yellow have right of way and can go, but should be prepared to stop at any time. The flashing red means "stop, then proceed with caution" as though it was a stop sign.



  • Was that picture taken in Syracuse, NY?  The buildings look familiar.



  • @bluephoenixalpha said:

    Was that picture taken in Syracuse, NY?  The buildings look familiar.

    Yes, it was. Good eye!

     



  • @Random832 said:

    That's a recipe for disaster - flashing yellow has a valid meaning (...), and it means that the other direction has flashing red and you have the right of way. Giving both sides flashing yellow will cause a crash.
     

    In my state (and possibly the rest of the country) a flash amber light is the same as no lights, which is the same as an "uncontrolled" intersection: give way to the right (remember we drive on the left) as if all entrances to the intersection had a "Give Way" sign.



  • I'll give you an unnecessary sign!



  • @Zemm said:

    @Random832 said:

    That's a recipe for disaster - flashing yellow has a valid meaning (...), and it means that the other direction has flashing red and you have the right of way. Giving both sides flashing yellow will cause a crash.
     

    In my state (and possibly the rest of the country) a flash amber light is the same as no lights, which is the same as an "uncontrolled" intersection: give way to the right (remember we drive on the left) as if all entrances to the intersection had a "Give Way" sign.

    Where are you, Australia? Anyway, in the US:

    Flashing signal indications shall have the following meanings:

    1. Flashing yellow—When a yellow lens is illuminated with rapid intermittent flashes, vehicular traffic is permitted to proceed through the intersection or past such signal indication only with caution.

    So I was technically wrong, but it's really a question of which is a more accurate description of what drivers actually do. And given that 99.999% of the time flashing yellow means the other direction has flashing red, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what will happen. And so here in the US, if the intersection is not working, and red lights are not available in all four directions, all lights go OFF and you're supposed to treat it as a four-way stop sign - which, for those of you in countries that don't have them (I was surprised to find out this is mostly a north american thing) means that everyone has to stop before crossing, and people go in the order of when they stopped. The case where two people stop simultaneously is not covered by the rules* but in practice is usually resolved by eye contact / whoever takes their foot off the brake first.



    Incidentally, you must be from Australia, New Zealand, or Singapore, because those are the only country with the oddball rule that you give way to the right when you drive on the left. In other countries, if you drive on the right you give way to the right, and if you drive on the left you give way to the left. Except when entering a roundabout. The vienna convention actually says that all countries that drive on the right give way to the right, though countries that drive on the left can choose either way. The aforementioned countries chose... poorly.


    * Some states say that if multiple cars stop at the same time the one on the right has priority, but this rule fails to cover the case where four cars stop at the same time, or when the two are directly across from one another.



  • @Random832 said:

    Incidentally, you must be from Australia, New Zealand, or Singapore, because those are the only country with the oddball rule that you give way to the right when you drive on the left.

    Note to self: never visit Australia, New Zealand, or Singapore.  If visiting Australia or New Zealand is unavoidable, stick to public transportation.



  • @Random832 said:

    Incidentally, you must be from Australia, New Zealand, or Singapore, because those are the only country with the oddball rule that you give way to the right when you drive on the left. In other countries, if you drive on the right you give way to the right, and if you drive on the left you give way to the left.
     

    Yes I'm from Australia. It's now winter and I was considering going to the beach today. I love a Queensland winter, it was bright and sunny all day today. :D

    Giving way to the right does seem natural (like driving on the left) but then I'm used to it. :) There is an intersection near my house with a two stop signs and a give way sign: The people coming into the Give Way sign need to give way to me, even though I'm entering into a Stop sign. (The only difference between Give Way and Stop signs is you must stop at a Stop sign)

    I did recently have a two week holiday in Japan and didn't get into any driving accidents (There's a photo of my 200cm (6-7) frame crammed behind the wheel of a small Japanese car). Probably because the highest speed limit I saw anywhere was 60km/hr, and the people are very courteous. Japan's intersections have a single horizontal traffic light for each direction, which is hard to see and if a bulb blows there's no backup. (Most intersections (with traffic lights) in Australia have 5+ signals in each direction.) Also the Japanese have signs that look like Give Way (Upside-down triangle) but
    near the end of the trip my sister tells me the writing says "Stop" - Whoops!

    Oh, there was a power outage the other day and there was chaos in the major intersection  near my work. We called the police to come out and direct traffic before there was an accident. They arrived just as the power was restored, 90 mins later...

    @Random832 said:

    Except when entering a roundabout

     So you reckon this exception is ok? ;-) When entering a roundabout here you still give way to the right so at least the rules are more consistent.

     



  • @Zemm said:

    There is an intersection near my house with a two stop signs and a give way sign: The people coming into the Give Way sign need to give way to me, even though I'm entering into a Stop sign. (The only difference between Give Way and Stop signs is you must stop at a Stop sign)

    Here, the "Yield" sign (looks the same as your Give Way sign) means yield to other traffic in all directions. The same is true for a stop sign, with (again) the only difference being that you have to stop. Except for a four-way* stop, which has the rules I explained before about who goes in what order. Also - with your rules don't you have to give way to the right, then, whether or not you have a sign? Because if you don't, the vehicle to your right (even if it has a sign) can't know that you don't have a sign, and therefore will be expecting you to give way.

    Also the Japanese have signs that look like Give Way (Upside-down triangle) but near the end of the trip my sister tells me the writing says "Stop" - Whoops!

    This is why in every other country it's an octagonal sign - and in most countries in Europe the writing says STOP in english (though in north america it'll be in spanish or bilingual english/french as appropriate) - "the same everywhere" being prioritized over being in the country's native language.

    Oh, there was a power outage the other day and there was chaos in the major intersection near my work. We called the police to come out and direct traffic before there was an accident. They arrived just as the power was restored, 90 mins later...

    See, this is why in the US they turn off all the lights for all failure modes - that way people know what to do and it doesn't matter why it's not working. The four-way-stop rule (and ad-hoc technically-illegal expedients for major intersections like "two or three rows of cars that were stopped from one direction get to go at once instead of everyone going one at a time") is something everyone's more or less on the same page about, so while it's definitely slow (especially if you're waiting to make a left turn), there's not really chaos, risk of accidents, or an urgent need for the police to show up to tell everyone where to go.

    So you reckon this exception is ok? ;-) When entering a roundabout here you still give way to the right so at least the rules are more consistent.

    Well, here in the US roundabouts (rare as they are) have yield signs, which as i said always mean you yield to all incoming traffic. (which just happens to be coming from the left). It's a different kind of consistency. The "yield to the right" rule is almost never actually used - it's only theoretically present on intersections where there are no signs. Most intersections either have a stop sign for one direction (the lower-priority road) or a four-way-stop.

    As a parting shot, I would note that your rules are no better than ours at determining what should happen if vehicles arrive at the intersection from all four directions simultaneously

    *Note the same rules apply to a "3-way" or "all-way" stop at an intersection with a different number of directions. Note that The sign always explicitly states this with an additional plate, so you don't have to look at the back of everyone else's signs for the other direction to figure out what kind of stop it is



  • I looked it up and you're wrong. A give way sign does indeed mean you give way to traffic coming from all directions - no signs at all on an intersection means you give way to the right only. I was amused at page 20 (21 of the PDF) - here in the US, crossing the equivalent painted area is illegal, so no-one would bother writing specific give way rules for it (since anyone who's breaking a traffic law is at fault in a crash, that's all that needs to be said)



  • @Random832 said:

    See, this is why in the US they turn off all the lights for all failure modes
    That must be your specific DOT. I've lived in Colorado, Kansas, Virginia, DC, Maryland, and Florida, and when there's a failure but the signal still receives power, all directions receive flashing yellow, at all the out-of-service intersections I've seen in all those states.



  • @TwelveBaud said:

    @Random832 said:

    See, this is why in the US they turn off all the lights for all failure modes
    That must be your specific DOT. I've lived in Colorado, Kansas, Virginia, DC, Maryland, and Florida, and when there's a failure but the signal still receives power, all directions receive flashing yellow, at all the out-of-service intersections I've seen in all those states.

    Maybe it's just that all the failures i've ever seen have been power failures.



  • In Baltimore, the failure mode is different for different intersections. Some are wired to give flashing yellow to main arteries and flashing red to side streets.

    There's also an intersection in Towson (I think the corner of Virginia and whatever Towsontown Blvd. becomes on the east side of York Rd.) that is uncontrolled. It's also on the route to bypass the traffic circle and get into the mall parking lot or the Towson Circle parking lot. That intersection sucks.

    I recently moved to Seattle; I love what they do on the curb to mark whether you can stop there. Red means no, yellow means for a short period of time, white means yes. Excellent system.


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