Facebook posting tomorrow






  • @forresto said:


    Um, have you ever heard of timezones?



  • @Flatline said:

    Um, have you ever heard of timezones?
     

    That... doesn't make the thing any less silly.



  • @dhromed said:

    @Flatline said:

    Um, have you ever heard of timezones?
     

    That... doesn't make the thing any less silly.

    It doesn't? To pick a US-centric example, if it's 8PM PST it's 1AM PST THE NEXT DAY which is technically tomorrow. I think it's purely the use of the word 'tomorrow' which is throwing people, if it simply showed tomorrow's date no-one would blink even though both are correct.



  • @Flatline said:

    It doesn't? To pick a US-centric example, if it's 8PM PST it's 1AM PST THE NEXT DAY which is technically tomorrow. I think it's purely the use of the word 'tomorrow' which is throwing people, if it simply showed tomorrow's date no-one would blink even though both are correct.
    WTF? The website is recording the time the message was posted, and it's taking the viewer's timezone into account (how else can it know that this message was posted "tomorrow"?). In the viewer's timezone, that message was not posted in the future. Timezones are just representations of absolute time; they don't represent time travel. The software takes the viewer's timezone into account but doesn't translate the time to the local time it should be. This is utter fail, and so are you for not seeing that.



  • @Flatline said:

    @forresto said:


    Um, have you ever heard of timezones?
    Maybe, but it seems odd for it to require the user to be aware of the poster's timezone and do mental math to figure out when it was posted, especially as most of the times posted in FB are relative, as in "3 hours ago", "17 minutes ago" or "Yesterday." They picked an odd way to change their preferred style; if that is what really happened.


    Now, about that "I dealt with my first whole chicken today..." bit...



  • @Welbog said:

    Timezones are just representations of absolute time; they don't represent time travel.

    Oh really?  So how do you explain my crossing the time zone boarder then calling my before-I'd-set-off self to remind me to bring my phone?



  • @Zagyg said:

    @Welbog said:

    Timezones are just representations of absolute time; they don't represent time travel.

    Oh really?  So how do you explain my crossing the time zone boarder then calling my before-I'd-set-off self to remind me to bring my phone?

    I don't have an explanation for that yet.  But when I do, I'll fly west until I'm able to call you 10 minutes ago and give it to you.


  • @Welbog said:

    In the viewer's timezone, that message was not posted in the future. Timezones are just representations of absolute time; they don't represent time travel. The software takes the viewer's timezone into account but doesn't translate the time to the local time it should be. This is utter fail, and so are you for not seeing that.

    Sadly, I have had to explain many, many times to people that timezones do not represent time travel.

     

    TRWTF is timezones -- just get rid of the fucking things and switch to one global time.  Fuck.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    TRWTF is timezones -- just get rid of the fucking things and switch to one global time.  Fuck.

    Yes; stop the earth's damn permanent turning thing. Just stop it when the sun is over America or Asia! Then, in every spot in the world, it's always the same time-of-day! You don't need to specify latitude then, either, just say "I'm at 4am."



  • @derula said:

    @morbiuswilters said:
    TRWTF is timezones -- just get rid of the fucking things and switch to one global time.  Fuck.

    Yes; stop the earth's damn permanent turning thing. Just stop it when the sun is over America or Asia! Then, in every spot in the world, it's always the same time-of-day! You don't need to specify latitude then, either, just say "I'm at 4am."

    Why would it matter what time it is with a global timezone?   The only difference is that sunrise and sunset would happen at different times depending where you are.  But there's no real benefit to having the sun always come up at approximately the same numerical hour everywhere on Earth, whereas there is a benefit to just having a single time everywhere.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    Why would it matter what time it is with a global timezone?   The only difference is that sunrise and sunset would happen at different times depending where you are.  But there's no real benefit to having the sun always come up at approximately the same numerical hour everywhere on Earth, whereas there is a benefit to just having a single time everywhere.

    Of course you're right, I was just babbling bullshit like ever. But I think there will be many pussies (especially in Germany) who would not want to have the day starting at 15:00 (3 pm) and ending at 3:00 (er... 3 am). Probably it would result in a time system which applies almost everywhere, except in those countries which's inhabitants would have actually sort of profited from it and brought up the whole thing in the first place, too.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    just get rid of the fucking things and switch to one global time.

    Or, at the very least, stop fucking around with the clocks twice a year* to try and "gain more light" or whatever feeble excuse is cited these days.

    I recall a few years back trying to explain to someone that they didn't in reality "gain" or "lose" an hour when that happened - ie the flow of time didn't rupture and spew in or suck out an hour to accommodate human foibles.

    * If your country/state/region, like mine, follows this moronic practice



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    Why would it matter what time it is with a global timezone?   The only difference is that sunrise and sunset would happen at different times depending where you are.  But there's no real benefit to having the sun always come up at approximately the same numerical hour everywhere on Earth, whereas there is a benefit to just having a single time everywhere.
    Exactly. And instead of the daylight-savings-time nonsense, you just shift the working hours of everyone twice a year.

    NB: not being sarcastic. 



  • @Flatline said:

     Um, have you ever heard of timezones?

    The function that prints this time string is mixing timezones the wrong way. It could print time in the poster's timezone (then Today, Tomorrow, Yesterday doesn't make any sense for the reader and should not be used), or convert it to the reader's timezone, then it can use those words. Looks like it converts to the day by using the poster's timezone, then prints the relative day by using the reader's timezone current day.



  • My reaction:

    1. WTF?
    2. Oh.
    3. Wait, WTF? 



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    But there's no real benefit to having the sun always come up at
    approximately the same numerical hour everywhere on Earth, whereas
    there is a benefit to just having a single time everywhere.

    Eh? Of course there is. Time defines people's rhythm. 3am is ALWAYS "in the dead of night", not maybe "time for the first coffee" if you happen to be in Montana. If I fly to Australia (half way round the world) I'll have a jetlag, no matter what they call their time. However, I will know people there get up around 7am like I do at home, which makes it easier for me to adjust. Similarly, it's a lot easier and certainly more natural to remember "it's 3pm and I'm calling Hong Kong. Wait, it's eleven over there" than remembering "it's UTC xxx now, so in Hong Kong that's... eh... wait... is that day or night now?".Soon as everyone shares the same time you'll start to forget; now at least we have a mental jog nagging us about how to remember times aren't universal.

    A single time, on the other hand, brings no advantages I can think of right now. But undoubtedly there are some; I'd love to hear them...



  • @Welbog said:

    The website is recording the time the message was posted, and it's taking the viewer's timezone into account (how else can it know that this message was posted "tomorrow"?)
     

     Did some digging into how Facebook does things when we were hitting the "how do we deal with timezones" thing here.  I know that events of facebook have no concept of timezones.  If I create one here in Texas, say its at 3:00 tommorrow.  My friend in California looks at that same event, he also sees it as 3:00 tommorrow.  Maybe they're doing the same thing for feed activity?

     Still a WTF to do that though (in the case of recent activity).  Store a UTC timestamp on every activity, measure that against current UTC time according to the server.  Stuff like this would happen if and only if the servers' clocks were out of sync with each other.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    TRWTF is timezones -- just get rid of the fucking things and switch to one global time.
     

    We do have a global time... UTC. Facebook just doesn't seem to use it.  Neither does email for that matter.  I'm used to getting emails "tomorrow" from people in Australia and China.



  • @alegr said:

    @Flatline said:

     Um, have you ever heard of timezones?

    The function that prints this time string is mixing timezones the wrong way. It could print time in the poster's timezone (then Today, Tomorrow, Yesterday doesn't make any sense for the reader and should not be used), or convert it to the reader's timezone, then it can use those words. Looks like it converts to the day by using the poster's timezone, then prints the relative day by using the reader's timezone current day.

     

    I was both the poster and reader for that, and had just posted the comment.  Tomorrow.  WTF?



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    But there's no real benefit to having the sun always come up at approximately the same numerical hour everywhere on Earth, whereas there is a benefit to just having a single time everywhere.
    On the contrary.  With timezones, you can make a few assumptions: anywhere you are in the U.S., you can expect that your average retail business will be open from somewhere around 9 am to 5 pm, that people will eat lunch around noon, and that The Daily Show will run at 11 PM.

    Were we to adopt UTC globally, Californian businesses would open around 17:00, and we'd eat lunch around 20:00, while New Yorkers would open up shop at around 14:00 and break for lunch around 17:00. It'd make things a little tougher on travelers.

    Timezones make it easier for people to talk about time in the context of the average daily routine.  Even in this modern world, average human behavior is closely linked to the position of the sun in the sky. With timezones, you might ask, "What time is it in Japan?  3 AM?  Oh, I'd better not call then, Takahashi is probably sleeping!".  Without timezones, we instead are left constantly asking "It's 17:00, what time does the sun rise over Japan?".

    Now, for worldwide shared services like the internet, and people who cross timezone boundaries multiple times per day -- pilots, millitary personel, etc. -- timezones are only a hinderence.  But for the average person, who crosses timezone borders no a few times a year, timezones are a handy tool for simplifying communication.

    So, in short, to say that timezones have "no real benefit" is simply false. Whether that benefit outweighs the benefit of a global time is definitely debatable, however.



  • I'd support a stretchy clock that realigns itself with sunrise and sunset every day.  Instead of 24 time zones, every lat/lon would be its own time zone.



  • @skippy said:

    We do have a global time... UTC. Facebook just doesn't seem to use it.  Neither does email for that matter.  I'm used to getting emails "tomorrow" from people in Australia and China.
    The Date field in e-mails actually contains the timezone information, but it's up to the client how the time is displayed to you - some clients even let you choose between displaying the sender's local time without the timezone, or translating the time to your zone.



  • @Zagyg said:

    I recall a few years back trying to explain to someone that they didn't in reality "gain" or "lose" an hour when that happened - ie the flow of time didn't rupture and spew in or suck out an hour to accommodate human foibles.

    * If your country/state/region, like mine, follows this moronic practice

    A couple of weeks before the most recent switch from DST to standard time in the U.S., someone asked me, in all seriousness, whether the Earth stopped turning for an hour during the changeover. I was not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.

    My main reason for disliking DST is the headaches caused when governments decide to move that changeover dates. When we rolled out a patch that was supposed to fix this to all of our executives' Blackberries, it broke all of them completely, causing much anger and confusion. Not to mention the fact that all of our Lotus Notes* calendar entries for that period were unreliable and the fact that my cell phone would randomly flip back and forth between EDT and EST during the period between the old changeover date and the new changeover date — a problem that recurred during the next two changeovers as well.

     

    * which is, indeed, The Real WTF




  • @Zagyg said:

    @morbiuswilters said:

    just get rid of the fucking things and switch to one global time.

    Or, at the very least, stop fucking around with the clocks twice a year* to try and "gain more light" or whatever feeble excuse is cited these days.

    I recall a few years back trying to explain to someone that they didn't in reality "gain" or "lose" an hour when that happened - ie the flow of time didn't rupture and spew in or suck out an hour to accommodate human foibles.

    * If your country/state/region, like mine, follows this moronic practice

    Get rid of daylight savings?  No way!  In autumn, when the clocks go back, you get an extra hour to lie in bed!  And in spring, when the clocks go forward, and you forget to set yours, you also get an extra hour to lie in bed!  It's a win-win!


  • @Monomelodies said:

    Eh? Of course there is. Time defines people's rhythm. 3am is ALWAYS "in the dead of night", not maybe "time for the first coffee" if you happen to be in Montana. If I fly to Australia (half way round the world) I'll have a jetlag, no matter what they call their time. However, I will know people there get up around 7am like I do at home, which makes it easier for me to adjust. Similarly, it's a lot easier and certainly more natural to remember "it's 3pm and I'm calling Hong Kong. Wait, it's eleven over there" than remembering "it's UTC xxx now, so in Hong Kong that's... eh... wait... is that day or night now?".Soon as everyone shares the same time you'll start to forget; now at least we have a mental jog nagging us about how to remember times aren't universal.

    This is the ridiculous.  Time is an arbitrary number.  Knowing that HK is "X hours off" does nothing more than knowing, uh, when it's night here it's day there and vice versa.  FFS, that's far, far simpler.

     

    @Monomelodies said:

    A single time, on the other hand, brings no advantages I can think of right now. But undoubtedly there are some; I'd love to hear them...

    Other than dramatically simplifying dealing with time?  Isn't that enough, FFS?  I bet you think 0-based indexes are sensible, too.



  • @ender said:

    @skippy said:
    We do have a global time... UTC. Facebook just doesn't seem to use it.  Neither does email for that matter.  I'm used to getting emails "tomorrow" from people in Australia and China.
    The Date field in e-mails actually contains the timezone information, but it's up to the client how the time is displayed to you - some clients even let you choose between displaying the sender's local time without the timezone, or translating the time to your zone.

    And the date field can just be forged, which is quite common for spammers. 



  • @alegr said:

    @Flatline said:

     Um, have you ever heard of timezones?

    The function that prints this time string is mixing timezones the wrong way. It could print time in the poster's timezone (then Today, Tomorrow, Yesterday doesn't make any sense for the reader and should not be used), or convert it to the reader's timezone, then it can use those words. Looks like it converts to the day by using the poster's timezone, then prints the relative day by using the reader's timezone current day.

    Nah. The poster's Flux Capacitor was malfunctioning, and sent his post to the past!


  • @Someone You Know said:

    @Zagyg said:

    I recall a few years back trying to explain to someone that they didn't in reality "gain" or "lose" an hour when that happened - ie the flow of time didn't rupture and spew in or suck out an hour to accommodate human foibles.

    * If your country/state/region, like mine, follows this moronic practice

    A couple of weeks before the most recent switch from DST to standard time in the U.S., someone asked me, in all seriousness, whether the Earth stopped turning for an hour during the changeover. I was not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.

    My main reason for disliking DST is the headaches caused when governments decide to move that changeover dates. When we rolled out a patch that was supposed to fix this to all of our executives' Blackberries, it broke all of them completely, causing much anger and confusion. Not to mention the fact that all of our Lotus Notes* calendar entries for that period were unreliable and the fact that my cell phone would randomly flip back and forth between EDT and EST during the period between the old changeover date and the new changeover date — a problem that recurred during the next two changeovers as well.

     

    * which is, indeed, The Real WTF

    Here in Mexico, DST doesn't do jack s#!t with "extended daylight time" at all. Half the country is inside the Tropical band, which means that daylight exposure time changes are almost non-existant. However, we got stuck with DST in 1997, and the only real reason for doing this was to keep in sync with the US.

    And the aforementioned DST change (thanks to the idiot soon to leave office in the White House) didn't affect us ... except that some jackass had set up all our Solaris servers to the US Locale instead of Mexico ... so we had to re-configure about 100+ servers to Mexico's timezone because of an IT WTF (setting stuff to the US) and a Bush WTF (changing DST).

    I'm pretty sure a whole bunch of both US and Mexico IT workers hate Bush's guts just because of that retarded DST affair.



  • @derula said:

    But I think there will be many pussies (especially in Germany) who would not want to have the day starting at 15:00 (3 pm) and ending at 3:00 (er... 3 am).

    In Germany, the times would change by one hour. CET is right next to UTC, which already is the standard reference time on Earth. Since everyone who uses non-local time already works with UTC that's what we'd use if everyone decided to abandon local time. Well, either that or those silly Swatch Beats.

    As someone who certainly wouldn't mind having everything shifted by one hour if it meant that we could get rid of people assuming anyone outside their time zone cares about their local time (cf. the catastrophic Firefox 3 launch) takes breath I'd certainly welcome UTC for everyone.



  • @merreborn said:

    Timezones make it easier for people to talk about time in the context of the average daily routine.  Even in this modern world, average human behavior is closely linked to the position of the sun in the sky. With timezones, you might ask, "What time is it in Japan?  3 AM?  Oh, I'd better not call then, Takahashi is probably sleeping!".  Without timezones, we instead are left constantly asking "It's 17:00, what time does the sun rise over Japan?".

    If that's true, then why do our UK developers always call me at 4AM to ask me stupid network config questions "before I go home for the night"?

    <font color="#FFFFFF" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" size=1>(Yes, I know the real reason.  It's also why I'm confident none of the UK developers who do this to me will be able to read this text.)</font>



  • @tgape said:

    @merreborn said:

    Timezones make it easier for people to talk about time in the context of the average daily routine.  Even in this modern world, average human behavior is closely linked to the position of the sun in the sky. With timezones, you might ask, "What time is it in Japan?  3 AM?  Oh, I'd better not call then, Takahashi is probably sleeping!".  Without timezones, we instead are left constantly asking "It's 17:00, what time does the sun rise over Japan?".

    If that's true, then why do our UK developers always call me at 4AM to ask me stupid network config questions "before I go home for the night"?

    <font color="#ffffff" size="1">(Yes, I know the real reason.  It's also why I'm confident none of the UK developers who do this to me will be able to read this text.)</font>

     

    They probably mean before "they" go home for the night.  If "I go home" is a direct quote, then they are most certainly talking about themselves.



  • @danixdefcon5 said:

    And the aforementioned DST change (thanks to the idiot soon to leave office in the White House)...

    Since your not form the US, I'll forgive your ignorance, but that was done by a bill which according to the constitution must be brought up in the Congress and passed by both houses before it is signed by the president.  Not that this should stop you from using it as a reason to hate Bush, hell, other people are blaming hurricanes on Bush so I suppose your argument is golden next to that.



  • @tgape said:

     

    <font size="1" color="#ffffff">(Yes, I know the real reason.  It's also why I'm confident none of the UK developers who do this to me will be able to read this text.)</font>

    I would have missed it but I have a habit of highlighting whatever I'm reading and I let the mouse cursor stray a little bit.



  • @Zagyg said:

    Oh really?  So how do you explain my crossing the time zone boarder then calling my before-I'd-set-off self to remind me to bring my phone?

     

    How did you call your past self if neither of you have phones?



  • @savar said:

    How did you call your past self if neither of you have phones?

    Nah, I did have my phone because I called myself to remind myself to bring it.



  •  What about those of us on the 28 hour day?



  • Hah! Trying to evade the XKCD ban by linking to something other than the comic! I see what you did there!



  • @forresto said:

    I'd support a stretchy clock

     

    Here ya go:

    stretchy clocks



  • @Someone You Know said:

    A couple of weeks before the most recent switch from DST to standard time in the U.S., someone asked me, in all seriousness, whether the Earth stopped turning for an hour during the changeover. I was not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.

    You are also not able to rightly apprehend a golden opportunity for a wind-up when it presents itself!

     A couple of weeks before the most recent switch from DST to standard
    time in the U.S., someone asked me, in all seriousness, whether the
    Earth stopped turning for an hour during the changeover.  I immediately replied "Yes, of couse.  They have a set of giant retro rockets mounted all round the equator, and they fire them for a while to stop the Earth turning for an hour."

    FTFY.

     



  • @tster said:

    @tgape said:

    @merreborn said:

    Timezones make it easier for people to talk about time in the context of the average daily routine.  Even in this modern world, average human behavior is closely linked to the position of the sun in the sky. With timezones, you might ask, "What time is it in Japan?  3 AM?  Oh, I'd better not call then, Takahashi is probably sleeping!".  Without timezones, we instead are left constantly asking "It's 17:00, what time does the sun rise over Japan?".

    If that's true, then why do our UK developers always call me at 4AM to ask me stupid network config questions "before I go home for the night"?

    <font color="#ffffff" size="1">(Yes, I know the real reason.  It's also why I'm confident none of the UK developers who do this to me will be able to read this text.)</font>

     

    They probably mean before "they" go home for the night.  If "I go home" is a direct quote, then they are most certainly talking about themselves.

    Did you read the entire text? Even the hidden easter egg? ;)

    <font color="#ffffff" size="1">Nice one, tgape! </font>



  • @Zagyg said:

    @savar said:

    How did you call your past self if neither of you have phones?

    Nah, I did have my phone because I called myself to remind myself to bring it.

    Oh no! You have caused a level 8 timewave! Time-space is ripping itself to shreds! What have you done?!?!


  • @morbiuswilters said:

    Sadly, I have had to explain many, many times to people that timezones do not represent time travel.
    Have you explained it to Superman yet?



  • @danixdefcon5 said:

    @tster said:

    @tgape said:

    @merreborn said:

    Timezones make it easier for people to talk about time in the context of the average daily routine.  Even in this modern world, average human behavior is closely linked to the position of the sun in the sky. With timezones, you might ask, "What time is it in Japan?  3 AM?  Oh, I'd better not call then, Takahashi is probably sleeping!".  Without timezones, we instead are left constantly asking "It's 17:00, what time does the sun rise over Japan?".

    If that's true, then why do our UK developers always call me at 4AM to ask me stupid network config questions "before I go home for the night"?

    <font size="1" color="#ffffff">(Yes, I know the real reason.  It's also why I'm confident none of the UK developers who do this to me will be able to read this text.)</font>

     

    They probably mean before "they" go home for the night.  If "I go home" is a direct quote, then they are most certainly talking about themselves.

    Did you read the entire text? Even the hidden easter egg? ;)

    <font size="1" color="#ffffff">Nice one, tgape! </font>

    No.  He must be british.


  • @DaveK said:

    @Someone You Know said:

    A couple of weeks before the most recent switch from DST to standard time in the U.S., someone asked me, in all seriousness, whether the Earth stopped turning for an hour during the changeover. I was not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.

    You are also not able to rightly apprehend a golden opportunity for a wind-up when it presents itself!

     A couple of weeks before the most recent switch from DST to standard
    time in the U.S., someone asked me, in all seriousness, whether the
    Earth stopped turning for an hour during the changeover.  I immediately replied "Yes, of couse.  They have a set of giant retro rockets mounted all round the equator, and they fire them for a while to stop the Earth turning for an hour."

    FTFY.

     

    But that wouldn't have played to this person's illusions. She actually thought the Earth would stop on its own for an hour without any intervention, and that DST was something we had invented as a reaction to this behavior in order to keep our clocks set properly. This concept baffled me to the point where I could no longer form coherent thoughts well enough to "wind her up", as you put it.



  •  Are you e-tarded? 0 indices do make sense, if they don't to you, something is wrong with you. And a universal time? Sure defy the rest of the world that has common sense to rely on knowing that 3 am means the same thing as 3 am anywhere else... Do whatever you want, but don't try to justify stupidity... Please... I beg you...



  • @DaveK said:

    @Someone You Know said:

    I was not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.

    You are also not able to rightly apprehend a golden opportunity for a wind-up when it presents itself!

    What's really sad is nobody seems to have recognized that awesome Babbage quote =(



  • @too_many_usernames said:

    What's really sad is nobody seems to have recognized that awesome Babbage quote =(

    On the contrary; I'd be surprised if most folks here didn't know it, especially as it's the header of another popular Computer Stupidities site, there just didn't seem to be much point in commenting on it.



  • @destriaero said:

     Are you e-tarded? 0 indices do make sense, if they don't to you, something is wrong with you.
    Sweet, this argument again!  We haven't had it in weeks.  Also, you lose a lot of credibility when you use a word like "e-tarded" unironically.



  • @destriaero said:

    0 indices do make sense, if they don't to you, something is wrong with you.

    No, they do not.  Starting counting from zero is counter-intuitive and retarded.  "I have 20 items, numbered 0 through 19" is way sillier than "I have 20 items, numbered 1 through 20."

     

    @destriaero said:

    Sure defy the rest of the world that has common sense to rely on knowing that 3 am means the same thing as 3 am anywhere else...

    What does this even mean?  3am in New York is not the same as 3am in Melbourne.  Why would having the periods of light and dark vaguely, sorta line up with an arbitrary numbering scheme?  "Well, in most places the sun comes up between 5am and 9am and sets between 4pm and 10pm.  Of course, that's not always the case, depending on where you are."  How is that even useful information?  Not having to calculate timezone offsets (including retarded shit like Venezuela's half-hour offset -- I'm looking at you fatdog) would make life a lot fucking simpler.

     

    @destriaero said:

    Do whatever you want

    Well, I want to force everyone to a unified timezone and make 1-based indexing mandatory, using iron-fisted tactics if necessary.  So now that I have your permission to proceed: accept the unified timezone and 1-based indexing or live out the rest of your days in a dank cell somewhere.

     

    @destriaero said:

    but don't try to justify stupidity... Please... I beg you...

    I take umbrage at that.  I never once tried to justify your existence and if you recall, I actually voted to take care of you with retroactive abortion, but was defeated by a slim Defeatocrat majority.


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