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  •  TRWTF is that somebody didn't read this article: http://anandtech.com/casecoolingpsus/showdoc.aspx?i=3413 before buying a power supply.

     

    Either that or your computer has 4 hard drives, 4 processors, and 4 video cards.



  • A 1kW power-supply? Was it for a 1970s mainframe?



  •  I'm holding out for the 1.21 jiggawatt power supply myself.



  • @nocturnal said:

     TRWTF is that somebody didn't read this article: http://anandtech.com/casecoolingpsus/showdoc.aspx?i=3413 before buying a power supply.

    Either that or your computer has 4 hard drives, 4 processors, and 4 video cards.

    If it'll make you better, I didn't buy the power supply - I was just perusing preconfigured systems, and this one happened to have a rebate, so I clicked through just to see what the deal was (I hate to pay a higher price just to have to apply to get a rebate - can't they just give you the damn discount at purchase!)



  • @Vanders said:

    A 1kW power-supply? Was it for a 1970s mainframe?

    Actually, it was for a CyberPowerPC top-o-the-line box: here; it includes TWO 1000W supplies.  



  • @snoofle said:

    I hate to pay a higher price just to have to apply to get a rebate - can't they just give you the damn discount at purchase!
     

     

    A lot of people don't actually mail the rebate in, anyways.  Therefore, they're getting people to buy at a higher price then what's advertised.



  • @snoofle said:

    I hate to pay a higher price just to have to apply to get a rebate - can't they just give you the damn discount at purchase!
    I purchased a monitor that had $60 in rebates ... $20 from the manufacturer and $40 from the retailer (Best Buy).  I also purchased the extended warranty.  Good thing, too, because it broke twice (well, the original and the first replacement broke).

    When I brought it back for the first warranty claim, they told me that since my $40 rebate from BB hadn't come back yet, I wouldn't have to pay it back.  If it had come, it would have cost me $40 to claim my warranty. 

    "Thank you for purchasing this equipment, here's the money we promised you as an incentive for purchasing it.  What?  It broke and needs to be replaced?  We're going to need that incentive money back."

    WTF?!?!

    EDIT:  sorry if I've posted this story before



  • @snoofle said:

    CyberPowerPC top-o-the-line box: here; it includes TWO 1000W supplies
     

    Oh I see. It's "Xtreme" and has blue cold-cathode lighting. Now it suddenly all makes sense.

    Are certain gamers becoming the audiophile equivalents of the computing world, I wonder?



  •  @Vanders said:

    @snoofle said:

    CyberPowerPC top-o-the-line box: here; it includes TWO 1000W supplies
     

    Oh I see. It's "Xtreme" and has blue cold-cathode lighting. Now it suddenly all makes sense.

    Are certain gamers becoming the audiophile equivalents of the computing world, I wonder?

    Hm. A 1000W PSU might actually work for me if I ever get to build that big badass 8-disk RAID array I'm supposed to be able to build. My 550W PSU currently feeds the graphics accel card (geForce 7600GT) and 4 HDD's. Used to be 5, but one of 'em crashed ... literally. Fell 1m down and ... something inside broke.

    Anyway, even with the 550W PSU, some of my friends are wary about it being able to keep up with my HDD power requirements. Now 1000W... maybe a 10-disk RAID tower? 20? How much would that PSU take?



  • @nocturnal said:

     TRWTF is that somebody didn't read this article: http://anandtech.com/casecoolingpsus/showdoc.aspx?i=3413 before buying a power supply.

     

    Either that or your computer has 4 hard drives, 4 processors, and 4 video cards.

    If you're using active cooling (phase-change or Peltier), a kilowatt power supply is essential. Similarly, if you've got more than about ten hard drives, a kilowatt power supply can handle the start-up power draw (but you should be using a controller card that does staggered start-up instead).



  •  1 KILOWATT?  What are you powering dual flux capacitors so you can go back in time and forward at the same time?

     My 9 hard drive, dual P4 XEON box (that's like 4 CPUs) which requires TWELVE extra pins of 12 volt power, with 3 TV tuner MPEG encoders, 2 extra HD controller cards, etc, etc uses a whopping 310 watts PEAK, 200 watts average according to my power meter.  And that's on the AC input, so it's OUTPUTTING less than that.  There is just no way you need that much PSU.  And if you did, consider this:  To squeeze those 1000 watts OUT of the PSU, you'll need to put in 1200 - 1500 watts INTO the PSU

     That means, legally, you require a DEDICATED circuit for the computer.  It is drawing as much power as your toaster.  Unlike your toaster, it will require a 14 AWG cable since it is continually drawing that much power for days on end.  Your plug will heat up.  I might even suggest a locking plug, since you can get some nice arcs from that kind of load if the plug comes loose.  You ever plugged two toasters into the same outlet outside your kitchen (where your outlets might be wired for both phases)?  You see how long it took to trip your breaker?  Yeah...  That's this power supply and why you would require a dedicated circuit for the machine.  Look for an older home with an Air Conditioner outlet (not 220 volt, though!) and plug it in there, or use a T-Outlet (20 Amps rather than 15 Amps) if you plan to plug a monitor in as well...  Don't even think of placing a 1000 Watt PSU on a power bar, BTW, most of them are cheaply wired with 16 or 18 AWG wire.  If you don't find the power bar getting warm, you'll be lucky and just pop the fuse/breaker on it.   This PSU will require being plugged into a wall outlet directly, with the power cable that came with the 20 cu ft. copier your office threw out 10 years ago.

     An 80% efficient (about average, it could be much less efficient, though) 1000 watt PSU is costing you ~$2 a day to run, if you're actually using the 1000 watts it can put out, or about $700 a year!

     Now, if we're talking Chinese watts... well, sure, that's really a rebadged 180 watt PSU (seen that with 400 watt PSUs that weighed less than a cheap paperback novel at my store).  Personally, I buy quality brands that don't pull the BS card on me...



  • @danixdefcon5 said:

    Anyway, even with the 550W PSU, some of my friends are wary about it being able to keep up with my HDD power requirements. Now 1000W... maybe a 10-disk RAID tower? 20? How much would that PSU take?
     

    Each hard drive will take about 10 watts (check the specs from the manufacturer, 10 watts is usual).  1000 watts will power 100 HDDs, assuming nothing else is attached.  It will power 90 HDDs and a wimpy computer.  Or about 70 HDDs and a top of the line computer.  This is assuming staggered spinup, which with that many HDDs you would for sure use.  Without it,  I would feel pretty safe with 2 - 3 dozen HDDs in the same machine with that PSU.



  • @danixdefcon5 said:

    A 1000W PSU might actually work for me if I ever get to build that big badass 8-disk RAID array I'm supposed to be able to build.
    I was running 11 disks storage "server" off a 650W PSU without problems (without even staggered spinup). The 24 drive case that replaced it has 2 900W PSUs (redundant, so a single PSU should handle the load), and supports 2 Xeon CPUs (though it does have staggered spinup for drives), so IMHO the only reason you'd ever want a 1kW PSU is if you'd put 4 of the highest end graphic cards in your box (but if you really want to do that, you've got other problems).@shepd said:
    That means, legally, you require a DEDICATED circuit for the computer. It is drawing as much power as your toaster.
    The outlets here are rated for 16A, and plugs are rated for 10-12A continuous use (with peaks at 14-16A), so there shouldn't be problems below 2000W (of course, assuming the circuit breaker isn't rated for less, which it almost always is).



  •  @shepd said:

     That means, legally, you require a DEDICATED circuit for the computer.  It is drawing as much power as your toaster.  Unlike your toaster, it will require a 14 AWG cable since it is continually drawing that much power for days on end.  Your plug will heat up.  I might even suggest a locking plug, since you can get some nice arcs from that kind of load if the plug comes loose.  You ever plugged two toasters into the same outlet outside your kitchen (where your outlets might be wired for both phases)?  You see how long it took to trip your breaker?  Yeah...  That's this power supply and why you would require a dedicated circuit for the machine.  Look for an older home with an Air Conditioner outlet (not 220 volt, though!) and plug it in there, or use a T-Outlet (20 Amps rather than 15 Amps) if you plan to plug a monitor in as well...  Don't even think of placing a 1000 Watt PSU on a power bar, BTW, most of them are cheaply wired with 16 or 18 AWG wire.  If you don't find the power bar getting warm, you'll be lucky and just pop the fuse/breaker on it.   This PSU will require being plugged into a wall outlet directly, with the power cable that came with the 20 cu ft. copier your office threw out 10 years ago.

    Depending on the toaster, this PSU might be drawing more.  Wikipedia places the low end toasters at 600 watts.

    On the topic of high-power devices, I have a 2000 kVA UPS in my living room.  This translates to something like 1500 watts.  The thing came with its own power cord rated for 16 A (we have a 230 volt system in Finland).  Its rated max current is 12 A, which I assume is when it's under full load and charging its batteries at the same time.  At least it hasn't blown the 10 A circuit breaker yet (I should ask about getting the breaker and possibly wiring replaced with 16 A rated stuff).  On a typical day, the five or so computers (some of them are my roommate's) and their monitors keep the UPS at 50-60% load, but during a LAN party around 90% is common.  I even spotted a 104% load once (accompanied with a warning light and an audible alarm), at which point I promptly shut off some unnecessary hardware.



  • @Vanders said:

    @snoofle said:
    CyberPowerPC top-o-the-line box: here; it includes TWO 1000W supplies
    Oh I see. It's "Xtreme" and has blue cold-cathode lighting. Now it suddenly all makes sense.Are certain gamers becoming the audiophile equivalents of the computing world, I wonder?
    What? get a PC without a fancy case? How are you going to impress the ladies?



  • @shepd said:

    To squeeze those 1000 watts OUT of the PSU, you'll need to put in 1200 - 1500 watts INTO the PSU

     That means, legally, you require a DEDICATED circuit for the computer.

     

    What crappy circuits do you have? Here every point can deliver 2400W. That's 240V at 10A, with (usually) 16A on each circuit. My air conditioner has a 15A socket on a separate circuit with its own breaker. The place I used to get coffee has a 20A socket for their cappucino machine (4800W)!

    @shepd said:

    It is drawing as much power as your toaster.

    I just had a look at my toaster: it takes 1700W. I guess your toaster isn't very good? :)

    @shepd said:

    Look for an older home with an Air Conditioner outlet (not 220 volt, though!)

    Running it off 220V is a good idea if it is available: double the voltage means half the current, and it's current that causes conductors to heat up. Many PSUs have the 110/220V switch, so just set it.



  • Actually, I'm curious... If you have a power supply rated for n watts, does it always draw n watts, or is the draw proportional to the load it is feeding?

    If it's the latter case, then a power supply wouldn't draw (much) more than the system was actually using, regardless of its maximum capacity.

    Does anyone know?

     

     



  • @snoofle said:

    Actually, I'm curious... If you have a power supply rated for n watts, does it always draw n watts, or is the draw proportional to the load it is feeding?

    If it's the latter case, then a power supply wouldn't draw (much) more than the system was actually using, regardless of its maximum capacity.

    Does anyone know?

     

    It draws the actual amount of power consumed, divided by the PSU's efficiency.  However, as pointed out in the article linked in the first reply, the optimal efficiency is reached somewhere around 50-75% load.  So with a 200 watt setup, a 300 watt PSU might draw 230 watts (87% eff), while a 1000 watt one might draw 280 watts or more (71% eff).  These values are probably exaggerated a bit but you get the idea.



  • @snoofle said:

    Actually, I'm curious... If you have a power supply rated for n watts, does it always draw n watts, or is the draw proportional to the load it is feeding?
    Power supply draws as much as needed. Also, higher rated power supplies are usually more efficient, so a higher rated power supply will draw less than a lower rated power supply at the same load.



  •  @Carnildo said:

    @nocturnal said:

     TRWTF is that somebody didn't read this article: http://anandtech.com/casecoolingpsus/showdoc.aspx?i=3413 before buying a power supply.

     

    Either that or your computer has 4 hard drives, 4 processors, and 4 video cards.

    If you're using active cooling (phase-change or Peltier), a kilowatt power supply is essential. Similarly, if you've got more than about ten hard drives, a kilowatt power supply can handle the start-up power draw (but you should be using a controller card that does staggered start-up instead).

     On the contrary;  If you have active cooling you absolutely need to have it on a seperate supply.  You have to start the active cooling prior to starting the PC to avoid condensation problems, so it has to be on it's own supply.  I'd recommend a switched 12V only power supply.




  • @tdb said:

    On the topic of high-power devices, I have a 2000 kVA UPS in my living room.  This translates to something like 1500 watts.

    2000 kVA? Wouldn't that be 1500 kW???



  • @danixdefcon5 said:

    @tdb said:

    On the topic of high-power devices, I have a 2000 kVA UPS in my living room.  This translates to something like 1500 watts.

    2000 kVA? Wouldn't that be 1500 kW???

     

    Bleh, 2000 VA of course.  Which is 2 kVA, or around 1.5 kW.   A 1.5 megawatt UPS would be quite something.  I once calculated that a typical 8-story apartment flat (such as the one I live in) takes on the order of 100 kW total.

    It's [url=http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SURT2000XLI]this device[/url] in case anyone is interested.



  • @Zemm said:

    What crappy circuits do you have? Here every point can deliver 2400W. That's 240V at 10A, with (usually) 16A on each circuit. My air conditioner has a 15A socket on a separate circuit with its own breaker. The place I used to get coffee has a 20A socket for their cappucino machine (4800W)!

    Well, all standard outlets are 15 Amp @ 120 Volts in North America (and many other parts of the world).  Our 15 A breakers therefore trip at 1875 watts (they usually trip at slightly higher than their rated current, if the current is constant).  Good design calls for a maximum constant current of about 1500 watts (although 1875 watts is allowed).  Higher current "standard" outlets are T-slots, which are 20 A @ 120 Volts, however, in a house you will only find them in very modern kitchens (older kitchens used a duplex outlet, fed with a common neutral, with a split hot, one phase for the top outlet, one for the bottom, 15 Amps per outlet.  Kirchoff's law explains why this is not only safe, but more efficient.)

    In most houses here, you will only find two other outlets other than NEMA 5-15 (15 A) and 5-20R (20 A).  Those would be the 14-30 (30A @ 120V/240 V) for a dryer, and 14-50 (50A @ 120V/240 V) for a stove.  Nothing else fits there unless you wire a new end on your cord, which is not suggested, since some of these outlets lack separate grounding.

    In some rare houses you might find a 6-15R (15A @ 240V) for an old, HUGE window AC or a 6-30R (15A @ 240V) for an arc welder.  You'd probably have to visit over 100 homes here before you found one of these, though.

    HTH!




  • @Zemm said:

      Kirchoff's law explains why this is not only safe, but more efficient.)

     

     

    No he doesn't



  • @tdb said:

    On the topic of high-power devices, I have a 2000 kVA UPS in my living room.  This translates to something like 1500 watts.  The thing came with its own power cord rated for 16 A (we have a 230 volt system in Finland).  Its rated max current is 12 A, which I assume is when it's under full load and charging its batteries at the same time.  At least it hasn't blown the 10 A circuit breaker yet (I should ask about getting the breaker and possibly wiring replaced with 16 A rated stuff).  On a typical day, the five or so computers (some of them are my roommate's) and their monitors keep the UPS at 50-60% load, but during a LAN party around 90% is common.  I even spotted a 104% load once (accompanied with a warning light and an audible alarm), at which point I promptly shut off some unnecessary hardware.

    Mui.

    I have a 3 kVA UPS under my bed (why? Dunno, perhaps I should plug my microwave oven into it). I have managed to blow (German, badly earthed) circuit breakers with it before, but it has run just fine (lightly loaded) on a normal Finnish 10A socket.




  • @Helix said:

    No he doesn't
     

    Yes, he does. With two phases, where each is 180 degrees out of phase from the other (normal for all two phase circuits), if we had two 15 A loads, both attached to neutral, each attached to the opposite phase) we have 15 A entering the first load with with -15 A opposing itfrom the other load.  This leaves the neutral carrying 0 A, effectively creating a single wire circuit for each load.  This, of course, halves the resistance of the wire, creating a more efficient circuit.  For unbalanced loads, the neutral carries the unbalanced current.  If the second load is removed, the 15 Amps now flows through the neutral to complete the circuit.  Safe and efficient.

     In some countries, similar wire-saving techniques are used, but in a much more dangerous fashion, such as with ring circuits.



  • @shepd said:

    @Helix said:

    No he doesn't
     

    Yes, he does. With two phases, where each is 180 degrees out of phase from the other (normal for all two phase circuits), if we had two 15 A loads, both attached to neutral, each attached to the opposite phase) we have 15 A entering the first load with with -15 A opposing itfrom the other load.  This leaves the neutral carrying 0 A, effectively creating a single wire circuit for each load.  This, of course, halves the resistance of the wire, creating a more efficient circuit.  For unbalanced loads, the neutral carries the unbalanced current.  If the second load is removed, the 15 Amps now flows through the neutral to complete the circuit.  Safe and efficient.

     In some countries, similar wire-saving techniques are used, but in a much more dangerous fashion, such as with ring circuits.

     

     What an ass around hat way of looking at things

    1. These are not two phase, it is a single phase.  Perhaps when you were typing '180 degrees out' you may have realised that it is one 240v phase, with a split to create  'natural'

    2. Large appliances, such as cooking equipment, are connected across the two live conductors and operate at 240 V, requiring less current than would be needed if the appliances were designed for 120 V operation.

    3. "This, of course, halves the resistance of the wire" Resistance of the wire will not change - it is an characteristic of the wire conductor materials in it's construction and the length of conductor.  Unless you change the length or material it is made of, the cable resistance will not spontaneously change.  Since the split phase system now have double the potential available, current demand can be reduced (as per point 2).  Reducing current demand allows a  reduction in cable power losses.  Kirchhoff laws do not explain the reason why we have power losses, please go back to school and revise 'Ohms Law'  and Electrical Power.  You will then find that the power drop across a cable is proportional to the square of the current.

    4. Please define ‘safe and efficient’ – efficient for who?  Cost or power efficient? Safe is a very relative term




  • @Helix said:


    @Zemm said:

      Kirchoff's law explains why this is not only safe, but more efficient.)

     

     

    No he doesn't

     



  •  1.  They are two separate phases.  It is defined in the CODE (I own a copy of it  -- I was an electrician) for crying out loud.  If you want to fight the world, you'd better start with the government.  And the code is written by engineers, and then interpreted by legal.  Trust me, the engineers wrote that they are separate phases.  You can call it split phase, but you can clearly see I'm from North America.  Here we call this two phase.  Wikipedia agrees.

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_phase

    Of course, in North America we still call BX cabling "BX" (not "AC") and loomex "loomex", not "NMD90".

    2.   Yes, this is true.  The only cooking equipment hooked up to 240 volts in a home in North America is the range.  Period.  You won't find anything else.  So, to make it more efficient, you can use your fancy-dandy-new-speak "split phase" power to reduce the wiring.

     3.   I didn't say "per foot" as you are assuming.  If there are 2 ohms resistance in a 100 ft wire and you only use 50 ft of wire, you'd halved the resistance.

    "Unless you change the length or material it is made of" -- Which we ARE.  Read my post and learn.

    "Since the split phase system now have double the potential available, current demand can be reduced (as per point 2)."  You really don't want to apply double the potention to a 120 VAC appliance.

    "Reducing current demand allows a  reduction in cable power losses." -- Sure, but how are we reducing current demand?  You plug two toasters into this outlet, each uses 10 Amps.  One is using +10 A, the other -10 A.  It's still 20 A as far as the appliances are concerned.

     "Kirchhoff laws do not explain the reason why we have power losses,
    please go back to school and revise 'Ohms Law'  and Electrical Power." -- You better tell the Queen that, as the electrican study manuals were actually approved by HM.  Seriously.  I have one.  You can be assured her scientific advisors are smarter than you and I.

     "You will then find that the power drop across a cable is proportional to the square of the current."  -- No shit, sherlock.

     4.  Efficient:  Less power wasted to heat.  If you reduce the amount of current in one half of the circuit to zero, you now can subtract how much heat was wasted there.

    Safe:  It isn't dangerous, like a ring circuit is, if your goal is to reduce the amount of copper used.

     Efficient:  For the homeowner and the installer and the power company, and hell, everyone else.

    Safe:  Safe for the homeowner, possibly for the power company.  Maybe the the electrician.

    Would you like me to refer you to the documentation you clearly don't have on being an electrician?  I can cite you the government approved study books, which are still used to this day, if you'd like.

     By the way, in our classes we had exactly the same people as you in there who fought this concept tooth and nail, until the teacher demonstrated it.  They didn't want to believe you could power two 120 VAC appliances this way without having current flowing in the neutral.  I think some of them still don't believe it -- they are the ones wiring T-Slots in today's kitchens, I bet.

    So, feel free to disagree with me.  I have several textbooks written by PhDs in EE that say you're wrong.  I will not discuss this topic further.  Feel free to reply, and feel free to continue to believe you are right when you're wrong.  My parting words are:  Pick up an electrical textbook (NOT a EET textbook, but an actual textbook used by Electricians, the way the concepts are applied, while equivalent scientifically, are world's apart), open it, understand it.  May I suggest the ones I link below.  HAND.

    http://books.google.ca/books?id=77e0fYn_Fv0C&pg=PA297&dq=kirchoff's+law+phase&sig=ACfU3U3rZs3KAsFu0DHUjH-pQ-mZPD_Nfg#PPA77,M1

    http://books.google.ca/books?id=60k0Q9tpmKYC&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=electrical+wiring+residential&source=web&ots=vHn4YLQCpf&sig=LrI76SBQ6KSzXv5WKfsoeyfebYM&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA130,M1



  • @shepd said:

    @Zemm said:

    What crappy circuits do you have? Here every point can deliver 2400W. That's 240V at 10A, with (usually) 16A on each circuit. My air conditioner has a 15A socket on a separate circuit with its own breaker. The place I used to get coffee has a 20A socket for their cappucino machine (4800W)!

    Well, all standard outlets are 15 Amp @ 120 Volts in North America (and many other parts of the world).  Our 15 A breakers therefore trip at 1875 watts (they usually trip at slightly higher than their rated current, if the current is constant).  Good design calls for a maximum constant current of about 1500 watts (although 1875 watts is allowed).  Higher current "standard" outlets are T-slots, which are 20 A @ 120 Volts, however, in a house you will only find them in very modern kitchens (older kitchens used a duplex outlet, fed with a common neutral, with a split hot, one phase for the top outlet, one for the bottom, 15 Amps per outlet.  Kirchoff's law explains why this is not only safe, but more efficient.)

    In most houses here, you will only find two other outlets other than NEMA 5-15 (15 A) and 5-20R (20 A).  Those would be the 14-30 (30A @ 120V/240 V) for a dryer, and 14-50 (50A @ 120V/240 V) for a stove.  Nothing else fits there unless you wire a new end on your cord, which is not suggested, since some of these outlets lack separate grounding.

    In some rare houses you might find a 6-15R (15A @ 240V) for an old, HUGE window AC or a 6-30R (15A @ 240V) for an arc welder.  You'd probably have to visit over 100 homes here before you found one of these, though.

    HTH!



    There isn't a circuit in my house less than 20A, and all new wiring I install is 12 ga.  So all the outlets in my house can deliver 2400W.  On is on a 30A breaker and can therefore deliver 3600W (10 ga. wire).

    I want to install 240V outlets for the computer / entertainment center since most computer power supplies are even more efficient at the higher voltage as long as they support it (all Active PFC supplies do). My supply is a 700W energy efficient unit that runs with a 350W load peak, so if I run it off 240V I will hit near 90% efficiency.

    I also have 5 total circuits in the kitchen (1 for A/C, 1 fridge, 1 microwave, 1 range, and 2 appliance outlets on the same circuit.)  On the other hand, there where 3 bedrooms and a bathroom on the same circuit which I'm working on fixing.



  • From the last line of the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_phase :

     "Three-wire, 120/240 volt single phase power used in the USA and Canada
    is sometimes incorrectly called "two-phase". The proper term is split phase or 3-wire single-phase."



  • @shepd said:

    By the way, in our classes we had exactly the same people as you in there who fought this concept tooth and nail, until the teacher demonstrated it.  They didn't want to believe you could power two 120 VAC appliances this way without having current flowing in the neutral.  I think some of them still don't believe it -- they are the ones wiring T-Slots in today's kitchens, I bet.

     

     

    Please feel free to re-read my post, I do not argue about the system working or not. Of course it does, and it's a good engineering solution (mostly caused by the residential voltage standard set at 120v all those years ago).  However you had a very bad explanation of the method used AND  you still have not explained how Kirchhoff laws state that it is a safe and efficient method. 
     
    Since you did not understand it I will repeat:

    What an ass around hat way of looking at things

    i.e You explained it very badly and have concepts mixed.

    In fact to prove it is so mixed I will take your Wikipedia web link about two phase systems and quote:

    Wikipedia - "Two circuits were used, with voltage phases differing by 90 degrees"
    shepd - "Yes, he does. With two phases, where each is 180 degrees out of phase from the other (normal for all two phase circuits)"
     
    You have 'Owned' yourself.

    P.S Wikipedia states a split phase system here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase





  •  Read my post again.  I'm not going to add anything except to remind you that saying "two-phase" is an Americanism, as has already been pointed out.  If it's incorrect elsewhere, that's fine with me.  "Lift" is the ass-backwards way to say elevator here, as it doesn't mean elevator at all.  It's a verb, for crying out loud.  I could go on with comparisons for english around the world, but I don't care.  Remain uneducated, it's your personal choice.

    As far as explaining everything, it's done as far as I'm concerned.  You appear to have enough comprehension of english to understand it.  Again, your personal choice if you don't want to exercise it.


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