Italian ATM BSOD



  • @astonerbum said:

    @Kurgan said:

    Sorry,  I did not mean to be "the usual windows basher".

     I am a Linux sysadmin, and to tell you the truth, I don't like windows very much.


    Give my wife a linux box (pre installed) and have her install some wierd program... it won't happen. Not without her bitching at me as to where is her windows and why the hell did I install linux on her computer.
     

    Oh please. That's because she is used to Windows, yes. If you wife had been using Linux for years and you gave her Windows (which she has never used) she will bitch too. It's not an argument against Linux - but it IS an argument against "Everybody should switch to Linux!". I run Ubuntu on my laptop. All the time. I love it, never had any problems with it whatsoever. But I won't convince my mom to use Ubuntu because she is used to Windows now and it would be too much work to teach her to use Linux. And not because Linux is too difficult (not for what she uses her computer for anyway, e-mail, word processing and surfing the web) but because she's already confused when her Outlook shortcut moves one place to the right on her desktop. Seriously. That's also the reason I dread the day she'll have to use Vista - it's different and therefor BAD, in her eyes. 

     So for me and my laptop, Ubuntu is superior to Windows (I'm talking XP here, have only played around with Vista for a few hours), mostly because many laptop manufacturers do some truly idiotic things. On my Acer laptop with an ATI Mobility card, I can't install the ATI drivers (Setup wizard says I don't have any ATI hardware, manual install bluescreens). I *have* to install the drivers Acer provides, which are out of date - and this is after a fresh install of Windows.

     But lets face it, for most people (especially if they are computer illeterate) change is bad because it confuses them, not because what they are changing too is bad. I believe this is also one of the reasons why Vista was received so badly - sure, it may not be a shiny gem of an OS, but I can't believe it's as bad as many people make it out to be. But it is different...



  • @danixdefcon5 said:

    @Kurgan said:

    What has windows in it is bound to crash. I fear the day we will buy cars with windows in them. Then a BSOD will be a true BSOD, when your brakes stop working.

    I kind of agree with that, I definitely don't like this latest trend of putting Windows into ATMs (or any other "critical" device, like life support systems) even when it is forbidden by the EULA. I've already seen once the dangers of this stupid idea: some weird crash on an ATM ended up serving the Windows NT Desktop to one very confused user. Thanks to this, the ATM ate his bankcard, as the app didn't recognize the card was in already! (it could be a security feature, though.)

    However, I don't think Linux is the solution for these things. Or Mac OS X. What these embedded devices need are, well, embedded OS or a good RTOS to boot with. These OS are less error-prone, and pretty adequate for any ATM function.

     

     

    Very true - these devices are prime target for a real embedded RTOS, such as windriver, vxworks, express logic, greenhills, qnx, enea and so on.

    Sadly this design route is said to be 'expensive' since you need to buy the RTOS, static checkers and unit test tools..... i believe the embedded win or embedded linux route passes the costs on to the banks - when they fail.

     



  • @snoofle said:

    @Sunstorm said:

    As opposed to Linux, where you have to recompile the engine.

    So if I change a few constants in the headers, I can get a bigger engine by just recompiling? Sign me up!


     

    You also have to carry around the compiler tools, run time librarys, source code and some manuals to recompile in the trunk for every journey....... and the manafacturer has to deal with the users who have recompiled in the highway and failed.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    @jay019 said:

    If they are installing from the repo then there will never be any lib dependencies problems. Ever.

    Wrong.  Lib problems crop up all the time when you install or update packages that need to update libraries as well.  When the libraries are updated other binaries linked against them can start having problems unless you update them as well.  Of course, there may not be newer versions to update to or you may not want to use the newer versions or the new versions might introduce lib updates of their own which start an avalanche of dependencies.

     No problems, I'll give you a call next time I have lib dependanciy problems. Just dont hold your breath.

     @morbiuswilters said:

    @jay019 said:

    Also, if Linux is so much harder to use than windows then how the feck can a retard like me manage so well with it? If anyone one finds linux hard (specially those claiming to be computer literate) then they must have some serious mental health issues that need to be sorted. Seriously youd have to be a special kind of retard to have problems with linux that you couldnt fix.

    Nominated for stupidest statement of 2008.  Seriously, Linux is definitely no easier than Windows.  Just because you got dual-boot Ubuntu installed a week ago and haven't really messed with it does not make you some kind of expert on Linux.  I don't dispute that nowadays it is pretty easy to get Linux up and running and to use it for simple web browsing (so long as you don't require wireless).  However, doing things more sophisticated than this requires screwing around with cranky packages, poor driver support, byzantine config files and lib hell.  Binary Linux distros are guaranteed to become crufty and broken over time because of how linking is handled on Linux.  Windows can have these problems as well, but it has generally improved since the Win95 days and with Vista I just haven't seen the DLL hell that I experienced before.

     Firstly, since when did I claim to be some kind of Linux expert? I'll state it again, I am a retard! If I can use Linux with no problems then it is beyond me how people can have problems just installing it.

    Since when was 2 years a week? And what makes you think I dual boot? Get real! You make so many assumpions of me without checking the facts.

    Again with the wireless, I use wirless as my only means of conecting to the net. In fact, before I wiped the windows off my laptop I had enourmous difficulty getting windows to connect to my router using wireless. Isnt windows supposed to be super easy, yet it couldnt even connect to my router. WTF? Install linux and within three minutes of booting for the first time its connected and running without a hitch.

    In fact, simple things like using bluetooth to connect to my phone was a hell of a lot easier than it would have been under windows, and again I know this because I tried using bluetooth under windows and it balked and had a hissy fit, I mena cmon man its not like I expected it to do much more than, well er work! Again on linux within a few minutes of first booting after the install I was able to send a new ringtone to my phone via bluetooth without having to install any silly software like Bluesoleil or whatever that crap on the "driver" disk was.

    Anyway, what other assumptions are you going to make of me?

     @morbiuswilters said:


    On a side note, please spell check before you post.  Your numerous spelling mistakes (not to mention grammatical ones) makes reading your post difficult.  Not that there was a lot worth responding to, but if you expect people to take the time to listen to you, please have the courtesy of using proper English.  Thanks.

     

    Man, I already told you I am retarded and now you expect proper spelling and engrish, Jees!

     



  • @jay019 said:

    Firstly, since when did I claim to be some kind of Linux expert? I'll state it again, I am a retard! If I can use Linux with no problems then it is beyond me how people can have problems just installing it.

    Since when was 2 years a week? And what makes you think I dual boot? Get real! You make so many assumpions of me without checking the facts.

    Again with the wireless, I use wirless as my only means of conecting to the net. In fact, before I wiped the windows off my laptop I had enourmous difficulty getting windows to connect to my router using wireless. Isnt windows supposed to be super easy, yet it couldnt even connect to my router. WTF? Install linux and within three minutes of booting for the first time its connected and running without a hitch.

    In fact, simple things like using bluetooth to connect to my phone was a hell of a lot easier than it would have been under windows, and again I know this because I tried using bluetooth under windows and it balked and had a hissy fit, I mena cmon man its not like I expected it to do much more than, well er work! Again on linux within a few minutes of first booting after the install I was able to send a new ringtone to my phone via bluetooth without having to install any silly software like Bluesoleil or whatever that crap on the "driver" disk was.

    Anyway, what other assumptions are you going to make of me?

    I have a lot of trouble buying your story.  Even if you were lucky enough to have bluetooth and wifi hardware that was supported on Linux, I sincerely doubt it wouldn't be easily supported on Windows as well.  Unlike you, I am a Linux expert and I can assure you that in my long time of working with many different Windows and Linux systems that the Linux systems are almost always more difficult to get hardware working with.  Additionally, the Linux systems develop "cracks" sooner than the Windows systems.  Regardless, I don't figure there's much point in going on about this.  Either you had a rare experience where Windows was more screwy than Linux or you are just BSing me.  If Linux really is easier than Windows for you, that's great, but you are definitely in the minority on that one.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    I have a lot of trouble buying your story.  Even if you were lucky enough to have bluetooth and wifi hardware that was supported on Linux, I sincerely doubt it wouldn't be easily supported on Windows as well.  Unlike you, I am a Linux expert and I can assure you that in my long time of working with many different Windows and Linux systems that the Linux systems are almost always more difficult to get hardware working with.  Additionally, the Linux systems develop "cracks" sooner than the Windows systems.  Regardless, I don't figure there's much point in going on about this.  Either you had a rare experience where Windows was more screwy than Linux or you are just BSing me.  If Linux really is easier than Windows for you, that's great, but you are definitely in the minority on that one.

     

    OK, you dont have to believe me, whatever, but my story is a true one. Do you need video evidence or something? *rollseyes*

    The wireless hardware was supported on Windows (Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG) but connecting using WPA2 was a nightmare. The bluetooth dongle was a dodgy cheap $8 love you long time special. Plug it in on Windows and it required installing drivers and software which crashed and burned. Then to actually send something to the phone required opening the BlueSoleil and hoping that it would work. Plug it in on Linux, choose "Send To" from the context menu, select the phone and bingo it works, no messing around. Hell, in Linux I can even browse the phone by typing "obex:///" into the address bar of the file manager.

     Maybe I did have a rare experience? I do however doubt that I am the only person who installed Linux onto a toshiba satellite and had it work OOTB with no problems.



  • @jay019 said:

    The bluetooth dongle was a dodgy cheap $8 love you long time special. Plug it in on Windows and it required installing drivers and software which crashed and burned.
     

    @jay019 said:

    I must admit I am not using cheap shitty hardware and expecting miracles from it, maybe thats half the problem?

    I see a [i]little[/i] inconsistency here...

    It also works the other way around: shitty hardware is less likely to work well on windows...



  • @dtech said:

    @jay019 said:

    The bluetooth dongle was a dodgy cheap $8 love you long time special. Plug it in on Windows and it required installing drivers and software which crashed and burned.
     

    @jay019 said:

    I must admit I am not using cheap shitty hardware and expecting miracles from it, maybe thats half the problem?

    I see a little inconsistency here...

    It also works the other way around: shitty hardware is less likely to work well on windows...

     

     

    Fair call.

    But the "cheap shitty hardware" comment was in regards to wireless adapter

    Regardless, the fact remains that in regards to the bluetooth there was no driver installation and it just plain worked in Linux contrary to what everyone else will have you believe.
    In windows it was the software that was the problem not the hardware. In windows, the "everything works" OS, well everything but the bluetooth software that came with the device and the wirless software that couldnt even connect to a router.



  • @jay019 said:

    The wireless hardware was supported on Windows (Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG) but connecting using WPA2 was a nightmare.
     

    I would suspect that is your problem right there.  I have had nothing but problems with Intel PRO/Wireless cards running anything more secure than WEP.  I hate our Dell laptops that come with these compared to those that come with Dell Wireless cards (Broadcom Hardware).  The drivers for these things suck.

     



  • @lpope187 said:

    @jay019 said:

    The wireless hardware was supported on Windows (Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG) but connecting using WPA2 was a nightmare.
     

    I would suspect that is your problem right there.  I have had nothing but problems with Intel PRO/Wireless cards running anything more secure than WEP.  I hate our Dell laptops that come with these compared to those that come with Dell Wireless cards (Broadcom Hardware).  The drivers for these things suck.

     

    Well its not a problem at all since deleting windows and installing Linux fixed all my problems almost instantly.



  • @lpope187 said:

    I would suspect that is your problem right there.  I have had nothing but problems with Intel PRO/Wireless cards running anything more secure than WEP.  I hate our Dell laptops that come with these compared to those that come with Dell Wireless cards (Broadcom Hardware).  The drivers for these things suck.
    That's weird - I never had any problems with Intel cards (from 2100 through 2915, 3945 to 4965, both with drivers supplied by laptop manufacturer and with Intel's own drivers), but I had countless trouble with Broadcom cards (though still less than with Cisco - why the hell do you need to register to be able to download a driver for that POS 802.11b card that actually works)?



  • @jay019 said:

    OK, you dont have to believe me, whatever, but my story is a true one. Do you need video evidence or something? *rollseyes*

    The wireless hardware was supported on Windows (Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG) but connecting using WPA2 was a nightmare. The bluetooth dongle was a dodgy cheap $8 love you long time special. Plug it in on Windows and it required installing drivers and software which crashed and burned. Then to actually send something to the phone required opening the BlueSoleil and hoping that it would work. Plug it in on Linux, choose "Send To" from the context menu, select the phone and bingo it works, no messing around. Hell, in Linux I can even browse the phone by typing "obex:///" into the address bar of the file manager.

     Maybe I did have a rare experience? I do however doubt that I am the only person who installed Linux onto a toshiba satellite and had it work OOTB with no problems.

    Like I said, I don't really care if you are telling the truth or not.  However, your claims are the exception to the rule and not indicative of what most people should expect.  So your broad claims that "Windows is so much better" and "Anyone who has trouble with Linux is a retard" are misleading bullshit. 



  • @Jeff S said:

    @danixdefcon5 said:

    However, I don't think Linux is the solution for these things. Or Mac OS X. What these embedded devices need are, well, embedded OS or a good RTOS to boot with. These OS are less error-prone, and pretty adequate for any ATM function.
     

    You mean like Windows Embedded?

     

    Just like Windows Embedded



  •  Just wanted to share a Windows/Linux experience. I bought a cheap digital tv card (DVB-S) a few months ago and wanted to get it to work on Windows, since that's the OS I use most of the time. I installed apps and drivers from the supplied CD and was happy to watch TV after a few minutes. A few minutes later, I encountered a BSOD. The same thing happened over and over again. I figured it had to do with those drivers and searched for updates on the net and learned that the BSOD appeared because of a certain Windows update, and removing that update would solve the problem. Since I've installed SP3 just the day before, there was no way to easily remove the update

    I gave up on the driver and played around with an alternative driver that exists for my hardware, but I had no luck getting it to work.

     So I decided to give Ubuntu a try. I read up on Linux tv card drivers and software and it seemed like a driver for my hardware was automatically loaded and it was already ready to use without me interacting. That's great, I thought, and decided to install "MythTV" to watch TV. Installation was easy, however, configuration was not. I needed a command line tool to scan for available channels and then import it's output to MythTV, check a dozen settings, etc. Since I am not familiar with all those TV settings and options and MythTV usage kind of confused me, it took me a few hours of work to get it to function properly. At least there were no BSODs (and no kernel panics, either).

    So yeah, I use Linux for watching TV now. Still no way to watch "windows" TV for me.



  • @Juifeng said:

    I thought, and decided to install "MythTV" to watch TV. Installation was easy, however, configuration was not

    Although I realize you seem to have it working now, I would suggest that kdetv is also viable (aside from recent versions seeming to ask you if you want to scan for channels every time I use it, they won't if you actually let if finish a scan). In my experience it doesn't require advanced setup as MythTV does, VLC can also read from my WinTV card (I found it to be buggy in this regard though) as do most other media players if I recall correctly.


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