Italian ATM BSOD



  •  Yet another BSOD on an Italian ATM (Bancomat):

    http://www.lecceprima.it/articolo.asp?articolo=10226



  • What has windows in it is bound to crash. I fear the day we will buy cars with windows in them. Then a BSOD will be a true BSOD, when your brakes stop working.

     



  • @Kurgan said:

    What has windows in it is bound to crash. I fear the day we will buy cars with windows in them. Then a BSOD will be a true BSOD, when your brakes stop working.
    Oh could you stop being a slashdot-style poster (thedailywtf troll)? You're not going to get praise nor discourse like that.



  • Sorry,  I did not mean to be "the usual windows basher".

     I am a Linux sysadmin, and to tell you the truth, I don't like windows very much. Anyway, I think Windows has its place, that is on desktop computers. (I mean windows XP, since Vista sucks royally. In my opinion, of course). I also think that it's quite stupid (imho) to use Windows in ATM machines or in some other embedded or higly specialized devices that had a perfeclty working software before someone decied that they could look better with colour displays and animations and so on. I also don't like the idea to have my in-car computer (hopefully not the engine control system) crash every now and then thus forcing me to stop and restart the car to clear the error.



  • Yesterday I saw what should be a list of movies schedules showing a Win2000 login dialog.

    I didn't think it was worth taking a picture, though.



  • I also don't like the idea to have my in-car computer (hopefully not the engine control system) crash every now and then thus forcing me to stop and restart the car to clear the error.

    As opposed to Linux, where you have to recompile the engine.



  • 99% of all BSOD errors can be traced to dodgy hardware, mostly dodgy ram.

    Sure it was a big joke back in 1995 about Windows BSOD'ing constantly, but since win2k this simply isn't the case anymore.

    Hell, at least Windows has the decency to stop when something goes wrong rather than Linux approach of 'bugger it, carry on anyway' and then you realise that you have massive systemwide file corruption.



  • @Sunstorm said:

    As opposed to Linux, where you have to recompile the engine.

    So if I change a few constants in the headers, I can get a bigger engine by just recompiling? Sign me up!

     



  • @Kurgan said:

    What has windows in it is bound to crash. I fear the day we will buy cars with windows in them. Then a BSOD will be a true BSOD, when your brakes stop working.

     

     

    Any decent engineer computerizing a car would have the brakes lock in the event of a BSOD.

    Same way train cars brakes lock if the air pressure is lost either from malfunction or decouple.



  • @snoofle said:

    So if I change a few constants in the headers, I can get a bigger engine by just recompiling? Sign me up!

     

    No, that would be like getting a faster CPU on a desktop.

    More like you're going through a car wash and when you're supposed to shift into neutral, you realize that the "N" isn't there, so you try to install kneutral but are subsequently informed that you need libshifter1.2.4.0341 and a kernel with mod_idle support for that, so you then have to take the car apart and rebuild it on the spot with 30 angry motorists all waiting behind you and honking their horns and possibly discharging small arms.



  • @wybl said:

    @Kurgan said:

    What has windows in it is bound to crash. I fear the day we will buy cars with windows in them. Then a BSOD will be a true BSOD, when your brakes stop working.
    Oh could you stop being a slashdot-style poster (thedailywtf troll)? You're not going to get praise nor discourse like that.

     

    Agreed.  Kurgan -- There is nothing orginal or clever or intelligent about an "M$ suckz!" post.  At least the regular trolls here have a lot of creativity, I'll give them that, so if you do want to troll here at least put some effort into it.



  • @Kurgan said:

    What has windows in it is bound to crash. I fear the day we will buy cars with windows in them. Then a BSOD will be a true BSOD, when your brakes stop working.

     

     

    I haven't had a BSOD since I use XP, and I collect a lot of crappy and shaddy software on my cheap ass computer.  

    Sorry dude, but that statement use to be funny/true like 8 years ago. 

     




  • @fatdog said:

    @Kurgan said:

    What has windows in it is bound to crash. I fear the day we will buy cars with windows in them. Then a BSOD will be a true BSOD, when your brakes stop working.

     

     

    I haven't had a BSOD since I use XP, and I collect a lot of crappy and shaddy software on my cheap ass computer.  

    Sorry dude, but that statement use to be funny/true like 8 years ago. 

     

     

    I agree, Windows works just fine so long as you aren't one of those guys who has to constantly try to fuck with it.  I use mine to surf the web, play games, do some work and program and I have no problems either.  When you add shady/unstable hardware or software to the mix you start to get the problems others talk about.  



  • @Aaron said:

    No, that would be like getting a faster CPU on a desktop.

    More like you're going through a car wash and when you're supposed to shift into neutral, you realize that the "N" isn't there, so you try to install kneutral but are subsequently informed that you need libshifter1.2.4.0341 and a kernel with mod_idle support for that, so you then have to take the car apart and rebuild it on the spot with 30 angry motorists all waiting behind you and honking their horns and possibly discharging small arms.

     

    Now that is funny, and perfectly surmises my one complaint with linux.



  • @Master Chief said:

    Any decent engineer computerizing a car would have the brakes lock in the event of a BSOD.

    You
    must be nucking futs, or maybe this is just some strange new usage of
    the word "decent" of which I was not formerly aware.  Slamming the
    brakes full on at a random time without notice is an insanely dangerous
    thing to do.  Do you drive at all?  Do you understand how the
    car manages to go round corners?  Have you ever heard of
    tailgating?

    Any actually decent engineer would make the whole thing fall back to manual control in the event of a failure.

    @Master Chief said:

    Same way train cars brakes lock if the air pressure is lost either from malfunction or decouple.

    Trains
    operate in a massively simplified environment as compared to cars: no
    steering, only stop/go, and no two are ever allowed near each other on
    the same bit of track at the same time.  That's a guaranteed safe
    situation in which to put the brakes on.  It is entirely
    inappropriate as a guideline for considering how to design
    safety-critical systems in a car.



  • @Kurgan said:

    Sorry,  I did not mean to be "the usual windows basher".

     I am a Linux sysadmin, and to tell you the truth, I don't like windows very much.


    For that comment I oughta hit you.

    Windows sucks, yes, but as a user-friendly-ish and necessary evil it is good.

    Give my wife a linux box (pre installed) and have her install some wierd program... it won't happen. Not without her bitching at me as to where is her windows and why the hell did I install linux on her computer.

    Windows belongs in one place, on the HOME computer. However I find it funny that it is used all over the place. I am surprised my GPS does not BSOD all the time since it runs embedded windows (Megellen, they suck donkey balls).

    O and I tried so many times to set up linux at home, and even our system admins don't do that, they use macs, CAZ LINUX IS TOO MUCH OF A PAIN IN THE ASS TO MAINTAIN FOR HOME USE.



  •  



  • @astonerbum said:

    Windows sucks, yes, but as a user-friendly-ish and necessary evil it is good.

    Give my wife a linux box (pre installed) and have her install some wierd program... it won't happen. Not without her bitching at me as to where is her windows and why the hell did I install linux on her computer.

    Windows belongs in one place, on the HOME computer. However I find it funny that it is used all over the place. I am surprised my GPS does not BSOD all the time since it runs embedded windows (Megellen, they suck donkey balls).

    O and I tried so many times to set up linux at home, and even our system admins don't do that, they use macs, CAZ LINUX IS TOO MUCH OF A PAIN IN THE ASS TO MAINTAIN FOR HOME USE.

    "Caz" is not a word.  "Cuz" isn't either, but at least I understand why someone would be lazy enough to write it.  Stop using made-up words.  Also, you sound pretty much computer illiterate.  You couldn't set up Linux at home and you complain about Windows in embedded environments?  Do you have any idea what you are talking about?  Windows is fine in embedded environments that don't have extremely specific needs (which Linux wouldn't be able to meet either).



  •  I sometimes use Linux, but I never had to "build it from scratch". Especially in the last 2 or 3 years setting up Linux was easy and very little time-consuming for me. I use "Ubuntu" now, which is pretty easy to use for starters. Of course your wife would have problems installing some app on Linux if she's used to Windows. But the same applies the other way round. Actually, it's quite easy. Most Linux distributions come with important applications preinstalled. If you need more apps, you just open the distro's package manager and select them, then wait for them to be downloaded and installed.

     Compare to: Open browser, search for download of windows app, download the file, start the installation. Linux seems somewhat easier, especially for computer illiterates.

    Linux systems can be a bitch. For example, as soon as an application is not listed in the distro's package repositories, prepare for a lot of work

    Linux and Windows have their pros and cons, but I usually boot up Windows.



  • @Kurgan said:

    What has windows in it is bound to crash. I fear the day we will buy cars with windows in them. Then a BSOD will be a true BSOD, when your brakes stop working.

     

     

    Awesome! I always love it when new posters let us know right off the bat that reading their posts will be a waste of time. It saves me having to wade through them to find out slowly.

    Thanks - I appreciate your saving me some time! 



  • @Juifeng said:

    Linux seems somewhat easier, especially for computer illiterates.
    As much as I'd like that, it's not. Well, for some people it is, up until the point where it breaks. And when it does, both are a pain, but I guess a complete newbie would find fixing, or at least finding someone who can fix his Windows box way easier.



  • @Master Chief said:

    Any decent engineer computerizing a car would have the brakes lock in the event of a BSOD.

    Oh, yeah, that's going to be really helpful on the motorway in heavy traffic. Personally, I'd vote with a manual backup system that kicks in automatically if the onboard computer goes down. I doubt we'll be seeing full drive-by-wire on a commercial basis any time soon though.



  • @DaveK said:

    @Master Chief said:

    Same way train cars brakes lock if the air pressure is lost either from malfunction or decouple.

    Trains
    operate in a massively simplified environment as compared to cars: no
    steering, only stop/go, and no two are ever allowed near each other on
    the same bit of track at the same time.  That's a guaranteed safe
    situation in which to put the brakes on.  It is entirely
    inappropriate as a guideline for considering how to design
    safety-critical systems in a car.

     

    Wow, you might want to let the semi trailer manufacturers know that their braking systems are completely inappropriate for the road.  The safety system for them has always been to engage the brakes when there is no air pressure in the system.



  • @Meep3d said:

    Hell, at least Windows has the decency to stop when something goes wrong rather than Linux approach of 'bugger it, carry on anyway' and then you realise that you have massive systemwide file corruption.

    Can you please explain what you're talking about? What kind of situations would you like Linux to handle better where it doesn't already throw a kernel panic or emergency remount the filesystem read-only?



  • @Maciej said:

    Can you please explain what you're talking about? What kind of situations would you like Linux to handle better where it doesn't already throw a kernel panic or emergency remount the filesystem read-only?

    OOM. 



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    "Caz" is not a word.  "Cuz" isn't either, but at least I understand why someone would be lazy enough to write it.  Stop using made-up words.  Also, you sound pretty much computer illiterate.  You couldn't set up Linux at home and you complain about Windows in embedded environments?  Do you have any idea what you are talking about?  Windows is fine in embedded environments that don't have extremely specific needs (which Linux wouldn't be able to meet either).

    1. I can make up any words I choose. So STFU.
    2. Magellan annoys the fuck out of me when it decides that I am driving in the middle of the Atlantic ocean and refuses to find my actual coordinates until i bang it around for about 2 hrs.
    3. I don't think windows is appropriate for environments with specific needs. Magellan is NOT a general purpose computer. Many environments running windows would benefit from linux, like NYC MTA vending machines, because they won't crash often. This also includes the commercial monitors in elevators which crash every other day by BSOD, and ATM machines in CITIBANK.
    4. I like that descriptive picture of linux... And that should be attached every time anyone argues linux is l33t h4x0rs!


  • @Suburban_Decay said:

    @DaveK said:

    @Master Chief said:

    Same way train cars brakes lock if the air pressure is lost either from malfunction or decouple.

    Trains
    operate in a massively simplified environment as compared to cars: no
    steering, only stop/go, and no two are ever allowed near each other on
    the same bit of track at the same time.  That's a guaranteed safe
    situation in which to put the brakes on.  It is entirely
    inappropriate as a guideline for considering how to design
    safety-critical systems in a car.

     

    Wow, you might want to let the semi trailer manufacturers know that their braking systems are completely inappropriate for the road.  The safety system for them has always been to engage the brakes when there is no air pressure in the system.

    That's not the same situation at all. When the air pressure fails in a trailer, there is already a mechanical failure of some type -- it is reasonable to presume that some sort of catastrophe has already happened, and putting the brakes on may reduce the speed at which it continues. (At the very least, it reduces the amount of energy which is going to go into any potential collision.) A computer crash is not necessarily related to any kind of mechanical failure, so the assumption would be unwarranted, and putting on the brakes would be more likely to cause an accident than to make anything better.

    Furthermore, a trailer does not (usually) contain anyone capable of controlling the vehicle and making an intelligent decision about whether or not the brakes should be turned on, so there's a reason for a single state to be chosen. A computerized car, though, would have someone inside who could react appropriately, so there's no need to have the brakes get locked into one position.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    @Maciej said:

    Can you please explain what you're talking about? What kind of situations would you like Linux to handle better where it doesn't already throw a kernel panic or emergency remount the filesystem read-only?

    OOM. 

     

    So when you can't answer a simple question, your Transendental Meditation chant makes it all go away, huh?

     

     

    (Yes, I did figure out OOM in under a minute... 🙂 )

     



  • @astonerbum said:

    1) I can make up any words I choose. So STFU.

    It makes you sound retarded.

     

    @astonerbum said:

    3) I don't think windows is appropriate for environments with specific needs. Magellan is NOT a general purpose computer. Many environments running windows would benefit from linux, like NYC MTA vending machines, because they won't crash often. This also includes the commercial monitors in elevators which crash every other day by BSOD, and ATM machines in CITIBANK.

    Linux is no more suitable for embedded environments than Windows and both are quite stable if set up right with good hardware and software.

     

    @astonerbum said:

    4) I like that descriptive picture of linux... And that should be attached every time anyone argues linux is l33t h4x0rs!

    WTF are you talking about?  Ugh.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    Linux is no more suitable for embedded environments than Windows and both are quite stable if set up right with good hardware and software.
    Windows is overkill for many embedded situations, especially those where no GUI is necessary.  You're never going to see one of these running windows.

    Don't get me wrong -- I totally understand the drive for choosing windows in these situations.  Commodity hardware, commodity software, commodity developers.  You can farm the programming out to India at $4/hour.  Or have your nephew do it.  If you want to build a custom kiosk, embedded windows is a damn cheap way to do it.  And so often, for better or worse, price is the only deciding factor.



  • @Meep3d said:

    99% of all BSOD errors can be traced to dodgy hardware, mostly dodgy ram.
     

    Have you seen or got a pointer to an actual statistic or survey that shows this?  I know that most of the BSoDs that I run into happen not because the hardware is faulty but because the drivers are incompetently coded.



    Case in point: I once installed Agnitum Outpost on a laptop
    machine.  It immediately (before the install had even completed,
    fer jeebus' sake!) went into an endless BSoD-reboot-BSoD-reboot loop.

    The
    reason?  I'd been doing kernel-mode driver development on the
    machine, so I had configured all the driver verifier settings (well,
    not the resource-exhaustion ones, just the sanity and safety
    checks).  The Agnitum Outpost network driver was reusing
    (non-paged, IIRC) kernel pool memory after having freed it.

    Not
    only does this prove that the code was buggy and shambolic; it also
    demonstrates that the developers either weren't aware of or just didn't
    bother to follow the most basic professional standards in their
    development and release process.  You have to wonder about someone
    doing windows kernel-mode driver development who hasn't heard of driver
    verifier - what else don't they know about?



  • @astonerbum said:

    Windows sucks, yes, but as a user-friendly-ish and necessary evil it is good.
    Give my wife a linux box (pre installed) and have her install some wierd program... it won't happen. Not without her bitching at me as to where is her windows and why the hell did I install linux on her computer.

     

     

    Man, I just don't give my wife and kids Administrator privileges. That's enough to stop crap.



  • @snoofle said:

    So if I change a few constants in the headers, I can get a bigger engine by just recompiling? Sign me up!

     

    I want a Linux penis



  • @astonerbum said:

    LINUX IS TOO MUCH OF A PAIN IN THE ASS TO MAINTAIN FOR HOME USE.

     

     

    No it isn't. You just think it's complicated because you've never bothered to try. My mother first used a computer a few years ago when I gave her one for her 65th birthday. It runs Linux and the only problems she's had are things like where to click in Gmail to create a new email and how to copy and paste text from a web page into email.

    I happen to think that maintaining a Linux system is a lot easier than maintaining a Windows system. For starters, all software on your system is kept up-to-date by a single software management system so you never have to intall new versions separately, thus perhaps missing important updates. Secondly, you can use the same software management system to search for and install new software so you don't have to search Google and risk installing something infected with spyware or doesn't work with your OS version. Third, you can upgrade your whole system in the background while you use it.

    As a bonus, you also don't have to worry about installing and keeping up to date your anti-virus, anti-spyware, and firewall software.



  • @shakin said:

    As a bonus, you also don't have to worry about installing and keeping up to date your anti-virus, anti-spyware, and firewall software.

    You know, one of these days security by obscurity is going to stop working for Linux, and it is going to be messy.



  • @Suburban_Decay said:

    Wow, you might want to let the semi trailer manufacturers know that
    their braking systems are completely inappropriate for the road. 
    The safety system for them has always been to engage the brakes when
    there is no air pressure in the system.
     

    Yeh,
    but when there's no air in the trailer's system, it's because the cab's
    come uncoupled.  There's no point in taking any steps to preserve
    control and manoeuverability (sp?) when there's no driver!



  • @Kurgan said:

    What has windows in it is bound to crash. I fear the day we will buy cars with windows in them. Then a BSOD will be a true BSOD, when your brakes stop working.

    I kind of agree with that, I definitely don't like this latest trend of putting Windows into ATMs (or any other "critical" device, like life support systems) even when it is forbidden by the EULA. I've already seen once the dangers of this stupid idea: some weird crash on an ATM ended up serving the Windows NT Desktop to one very confused user. Thanks to this, the ATM ate his bankcard, as the app didn't recognize the card was in already! (it could be a security feature, though.)

    However, I don't think Linux is the solution for these things. Or Mac OS X. What these embedded devices need are, well, embedded OS or a good RTOS to boot with. These OS are less error-prone, and pretty adequate for any ATM function.



  • @danixdefcon5 said:

    However, I don't think Linux is the solution for these things. Or Mac OS X. What these embedded devices need are, well, embedded OS or a good RTOS to boot with. These OS are less error-prone, and pretty adequate for any ATM function.
     

    You mean like Windows Embedded?



  • Installing software on Windows:

    1. Search Internet for desired program.
    2. Close popups.
    3. Download installer.
    4. Read ridiculously long EULA.
    5. Sign away your soul.
    6. Begin installation.
    7. Delete desktop, Start menu, and quick launch icons that the installer added without asking.
    8. Run spyware removal program to get rid of all the extra shit bundled with the program.



      Installing software on Ubuntu:
    9. Go to Applications, System, Add/Remove.
    10. Find desired program by typing one or two related words in the search box.
    11. Check box and click Apply.



      Installing software on Ubuntu when you know its name:
    12. sudo apt-get install (name of program)



      Yep, Linux sure is hard.


  • @shakin said:

    No it isn't. You just think it's complicated because you've never bothered to try. My mother first used a computer a few years ago when I gave her one for her 65th birthday. It runs Linux and the only problems she's had are things like where to click in Gmail to create a new email and how to copy and paste text from a web page into email.

    I happen to think that maintaining a Linux system is a lot easier than maintaining a Windows system. For starters, all software on your system is kept up-to-date by a single software management system so you never have to intall new versions separately, thus perhaps missing important updates. Secondly, you can use the same software management system to search for and install new software so you don't have to search Google and risk installing something infected with spyware or doesn't work with your OS version. Third, you can upgrade your whole system in the background while you use it.

    As a bonus, you also don't have to worry about installing and keeping up to date your anti-virus, anti-spyware, and firewall software.

    Which is great, until somebody wants to play a game they bought or use a program that doesn't run on Linux.  Also, when Linux breaks it breaks hard and can be a total PITA.  I've never found Windows that hard to maintain and with some very simple instructions even n00bs can avoid viruses and other problems.  Linux doesn't need anti-virus/spyware software because almost nobody is going to waste the time writing a virus for it.  If they did, your mother's computer is going to be toast as soon as they get her to view their site or download their software.  Thinking that Linux can become a mainstream desktop OS is really absurd.



  • @lolwtf said:

    Installing software on Windows:

    1. Search Internet for desired program.
    2. Close popups.
    3. Download installer.
    4. Read ridiculously long EULA.
    5. Sign away your soul.
    6. Begin installation.
    7. Delete desktop, Start menu, and quick launch icons that the installer added without asking.
    8. Run spyware removal program to get rid of all the extra shit bundled with the program.

    Numbers 2, 4, 5 and 7 are not real steps.  Number 8 only applies if you are using crappy freeware without checking if it is malware first, so you get what you deserve.

     

    @lolwtf said:

    Installing software on Ubuntu:
  • Go to Applications, System, Add/Remove.
  • Find desired program by typing one or two related words in the search box.
  • Check box and click Apply.
  • Which is great, until you need one of the numerous apps that have no Linux equivalent.  Then you are boned.  Oh, and of course you didn't mention what happens when lib dependencies get screwed up or your Ubuntu installation gets old enough that the core libs are too old to work with new packages.  Then you are boned again.  Binary Linux packages tend to be the most brittle things on the planet.

     

    Installing software on Linux is immensely more difficult than on Windows, period.  I've watched many people who are quite computer literate fumble with Ubuntu's graphical software installer, trying to figure out what apps they need and desperately trying to get wifi to work on their laptop.  I've never watched someone have an easy experience with Linux.  I'm sick of people arguing this point.  It's got to be one of the most insane things I've ever heard and it is so deeply dishonest.  The fact is, keeping a Linux system running is not an easy task and Linux is not a mainstream OS.  Yes, we know you just downloaded Ubuntu and installed it on a second partition so you can dual-boot and you are really pumped that you are using Linux, but you need to be truthful here.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    Oh, and of course you didn't mention what happens when lib dependencies get screwed up or your Ubuntu installation gets old enough that the core libs are too old to work with new packages.  Then you are boned again.  Binary Linux packages tend to be the most brittle things on the planet.

     

    If they are installing from the repo then there will never be any lib dependencies problems. Ever. I have even installed packages for a later version of ubuntu and had no problems. If you get dependency problems installing from Synaptic, apt-get or Add/Remove programs then you are definately doing it wrong.

     

    @morbiuswilters said:

    Installing software on Linux is immensely more difficult than on Windows, period.  I've watched many people who are quite computer literate fumble with Ubuntu's graphical software installer, trying to figure out what apps they need and desperately trying to get wifi to work on their laptop.  I've never watched someone have an easy experience with Linux.  I'm sick of people arguing this point.  It's got to be one of the most insane things I've ever heard and it is so deeply dishonest.  The fact is, keeping a Linux system running is not an easy task and Linux is not a mainstream OS. 

     

    Why is the "wirless doesnt work" argument bandied around so much? I am yet to have trouble with my wireless (which worked OOTB by the way) so I just can not understand why people are having so many problems wih it. I must admit I am not using cheap shitty hardware and expecting miracles from it, maybe thats half the problem?

     

    Also, if Linux is so much harder to use than windows then how the feck can a retard like me manage so well with it? If anyone one finds linux hard (specially those claiming to be computer literate) then they must have some serious mental health issues that need to be sorted. Seriously youd have to be a special kind of retard to have problems with linux that you couldnt fix.

     



  • @jay019 said:

    Why is the "wireless doesn't work" argument bandied around so much? I am yet to have trouble with my wireless (which worked OOTB by the way) so I just can not understand why people are having so many problems with it. I must admit I am not using cheap shitty hardware and expecting miracles from it, maybe thats half the problem?
    I know, right? I keep telling this to all those clueless morons criticising my software, too poor to get proper hardware themselves. It's 2008 for heaven's sake, O(n^3) that works on my machine ought to be enough for anyone!

    @jay019 said:

    Seriously, you'd have to be a special kind of retard to have problems with linux that you couldn't fix.
    Yeah, really, what are these dolts thinking? How hard is it to invest a few hours each day to become computer literate? Always complaining about just wanting computers to make their jobs easier, never bothering to invest some time. Goddamn slackers.

    And good riddance, I say! Such a great OS deserves better users.



  • @Jeff S said:

    You mean like Windows Embedded?
    Windows Embedded is pretty much just XP Pro with an official way to remove components like nLite does.



  • @jay019 said:

    If they are installing from the repo then there will never be any lib dependencies problems. Ever.

    That would hold true if you kept every old version of a library in your /lib, however occasionally the package maintainers overlook a specific library as a requirement and said library doesn't get installed, resulting in DLL Hell. Also certain package managers presume that when you upgrade a package you don't want it's dependencies upgraded at the same time (eg: pacman).
    @jay019 said:
    Why is the "wirless doesnt work" argument bandied around so much? I am yet to have trouble with my wireless (which worked OOTB by the way) so I just can not understand why people are having so many problems wih it.

    Same boat as Windows installs, if the disc/kernel includes your drivers everything is peachy, however a large number of drivers require special attention to get working.



  • @wybl said:

    @jay019 said:
    Why is the "wireless doesn't work" argument bandied around
    so much? I am yet to have trouble with my wireless (which worked OOTB by the
    way) so I just can not understand why people are having so many problems with
    it. I must admit I am not using cheap shitty hardware and expecting miracles
    from it, maybe thats half the problem?
    I know, right? I keep telling
    this to all those clueless morons criticising my software, too poor to get
    proper hardware themselves.

    After all, who the failure uses wireless? Only lazy bums who can't be bothered to plug the wires properly. I don't have wireless, why should you?



  • @shakin said:

    @astonerbum said:

    LINUX IS TOO MUCH OF A PAIN IN THE ASS TO MAINTAIN FOR HOME USE.

     

     

    No it isn't. You just think it's complicated because you've never bothered to try. My mother first used a computer a few years ago when I gave her one for her 65th birthday. It runs Linux and the only problems she's had are things like where to click in Gmail to create a new email and how to copy and paste text from a web page into email.

    I happen to think that maintaining a Linux system is a lot easier than maintaining a Windows system. For starters, all software on your system is kept up-to-date by a single software management system so you never have to intall new versions separately, thus perhaps missing important updates. Secondly, you can use the same software management system to search for and install new software so you don't have to search Google and risk installing something infected with spyware or doesn't work with your OS version. Third, you can upgrade your whole system in the background while you use it.

    As a bonus, you also don't have to worry about installing and keeping up to date your anti-virus, anti-spyware, and firewall software.

    I've been setting one up for YEARS. Tried Free BSD, Mandriva, Fedora, Ubuntu... With ubuntu its not that terrible but doing anything remotely non-standard like getting my sound card to work (sound blaster) takes hours to get working. I just don't have the time to fiddle with it so damn much.

    Ubuntu I got working pretty well now, but god forbid I need to install something thats weird in some way. It'll take another few hrs to configure.

    Don't blame people saying that "if you try it you will see that your argument is invalid", people who complain about linux complain because its a pain in the fucking ass when they tried it.

    Now to give linux credit, it crashes VERY infrequently... Ok by very infrequently I mean my latest installation of ubuntu never crashed on me.



  • @jay019 said:

    If they are installing from the repo then there will never be any lib dependencies problems. Ever.

    Wrong.  Lib problems crop up all the time when you install or update packages that need to update libraries as well.  When the libraries are updated other binaries linked against them can start having problems unless you update them as well.  Of course, there may not be newer versions to update to or you may not want to use the newer versions or the new versions might introduce lib updates of their own which start an avalanche of dependencies.

     

    @jay019 said:

    Why is the "wirless doesnt work" argument bandied around so much? I am yet to have trouble with my wireless (which worked OOTB by the way) so I just can not understand why people are having so many problems wih it. I must admit I am not using cheap shitty hardware and expecting miracles from it, maybe thats half the problem?

    Wireless has so many problems on Linux because most of the popular wifi cards don't have Linux drivers.  This is well known.  It has nothing to do with cheap, shitty hardware and everything to do with a lack of good driver support on Linux.

     

    @jay019 said:

    Also, if Linux is so much harder to use than windows then how the feck can a retard like me manage so well with it? If anyone one finds linux hard (specially those claiming to be computer literate) then they must have some serious mental health issues that need to be sorted. Seriously youd have to be a special kind of retard to have problems with linux that you couldnt fix.

    Nominated for stupidest statement of 2008.  Seriously, Linux is definitely no easier than Windows.  Just because you got dual-boot Ubuntu installed a week ago and haven't really messed with it does not make you some kind of expert on Linux.  I don't dispute that nowadays it is pretty easy to get Linux up and running and to use it for simple web browsing (so long as you don't require wireless).  However, doing things more sophisticated than this requires screwing around with cranky packages, poor driver support, byzantine config files and lib hell.  Binary Linux distros are guaranteed to become crufty and broken over time because of how linking is handled on Linux.  Windows can have these problems as well, but it has generally improved since the Win95 days and with Vista I just haven't seen the DLL hell that I experienced before.

     

    On a side note, please spell check before you post.  Your numerous spelling mistakes (not to mention grammatical ones) makes reading your post difficult.  Not that there was a lot worth responding to, but if you expect people to take the time to listen to you, please have the courtesy of using proper English.  Thanks.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    @jay019 said:

    Why is the "wirless doesnt work" argument bandied around so much? I am yet to have trouble with my wireless (which worked OOTB by the way) so I just can not understand why people are having so many problems wih it. I must admit I am not using cheap shitty hardware and expecting miracles from it, maybe thats half the problem?

    Wireless has so many problems on Linux because most of the popular wifi cards don't have Linux drivers.  This is well known.  It has nothing to do with cheap, shitty hardware and everything to do with a lack of good driver support on Linux.

     

    Of course this is not 100% the fault of linux. But you can't really expect a organisation that tries to make profit (commonly known as business)  to support an OS that has +- 1,5% market share, especially when the costs are large such as in driver development. 

    Furthermore, the lack of a uniform way of doing something (eg. WZC for wireless in XP) , which is almost the nature of linux and other OS products, makes development even more difficult.



  • @astonerbum said:

    ... LINUX IS TOO MUCH OF A PAIN IN THE ASS TO MAINTAIN FOR HOME USE.

    The wife and I both eventually decided that that's true of Windows, too. It's required for our jobs, but just not worth the trouble at home.


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