Web developer vs software developer



  • I am a software engineer and working on mostly my project in java basically all projects are Window based but some of project i m handling are web based...and the most thing that i am also working in PHP.so what do you think what is in me a software developer or a web developer...i need to judge myself... 



  • Um... a software developer with some experience in developing web application software?



  • Consider these questions:

    • Do I think that appearance is more important than an application that is useful
    • Have I ever asked an online forum "I have check box.  How to get into database?  Plz send d codz"
    • What's a data model?  I don't need one if it looks pretty, right?
    • I don't think you need anything more than XML to store stuff
    • I am confident constructing SQL at the client side and passing it back to the server
    • Javascript means I can stop crap getting to my back end
    • MySQL Teh rox
    • I have a stupid goatee
    • I think it's great to have menus poping up all over the place making my users throw the mouse around like a mad thing. 
    • Keyboard entry should be illegal - it gets in the way of my really clever transition effects.  I don't care if it's unusable
    • You can never have too many different kinds of date controls.  Typing in dd/mm/yyyy means I don't get to show off my 733t javascript skilz
    • I get all excited when I achieve something that non-web applications have taken for granted for years (e.g. a drop down list connected to a text edit box, a rich text editor etc.)
    • I have designed a user interface whos use is completely different to everything else in the known universe.  Ha!  totally unique!  I don't care though - it's bound to be better than anything else anyone has ever thought of.
    • Stateless stuff rox.  Gotta be stateless to be Enterprizey! However I will write a billion lines of code in order to maintain state throughout the use of my application.
    • Layers.  Can't have enough layers.
    • I don't think anyone should have the name O'Brien, O'Riely etc.  If I ever find that cunt Bobby O' Drop Tables I'll kill the fucker.
    • I will take the credit for any web application even though all the clever stuff is in the back end
    • Timeouts are a "security feature".  Nothing to do with statelessness. Ahem.
    • My site is so important you have to log on.
    • I don't have a conflict writing the same thing 85 different times for different browsers and then claim to be platform independent out of the box.
    • Everything is a string.
    • I must change my development methodology/code library/framework every 2 months so I am incapable of actually building anything with any degree of stability
    • I do not need to understand data, databases, data integrity, transactions or consistentcey.  Look!  The little icon whirls round and the page doesn't even refresh after you press the button!!!111oneone!  Please do not press the button twice though.
    • I live in 'web time'.  Gimmie a screen over a well thought out requirement any time and give it to me NOW!!
    • My talents are misunderstood by LoztInSpace

    If you agree with/answered yes to any of the above then you are a web developer.

     



  • @LoztInSpace said:

    If you agree with/answered yes to any of the above then you are a web developer.

    Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute or are you just going to projectile vomit bullshit all over the forum?  My guess is that most web developers are probably a hell of a lot smarter than you are.  I'm sure I am. 



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    [Complaints about some 'tard spouting crap]
     

    To be fair, the distinction between web developer and software developer is a pretty silly one to make. Web developers develop software, so by definition all web developers are software developers. Unless we're talking about web designers, but then the OP should have stated that.

    I guess LoztInSpace thinks that the things you write in PHP, ASP, et cetera aren't software.



  • Not so.  I do appreciate that it is all software.  From what I have seen though, it has often (but not exclusively) been developed to a lower standard than I find acceptable by people who don't always know better.

    See also a large, but not exclusive, number of VB apps.



  • @LoztInSpace said:

    From what I have seen though, it has often (but not exclusively) been developed to a lower standard than I find acceptable by people who don't always know better.

    Bad software never happened before the web!

     

    So, um, are you admitting your list was stupid?  Did I win? 



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    Bad software never happened before the web!

    No:

    @LoztInSpace said:

    See also a large, but not exclusive, number of VB apps

    So do you think my list is stupid because nothing on it is remotely true or something?



  • @LoztInSpace said:

    So do you think my list is stupid because nothing on it is remotely true or something?

    Yeah, that would be it.  I know there are bad web developers, but there are bad developers all over.  The fact that you seem to think web developers are all morons and the fact that you keep ignorantly bashing MySQL lead me to believe you are just being a dick. 



  • @LoztInSpace said:

    @morbiuswilters said:

    Bad software never happened before the web!

    No:

    @LoztInSpace said:

    See also a large, but not exclusive, number of VB apps

    So do you think my list is stupid because nothing on it is remotely true or something?

     

    Do you think that there is not a large portion of apps written in pascal, c, c++, c#, Java, etc that aren't huge piles of WTFery?



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Do you think that there is not a large portion of apps written in pascal, c, c++, c#, Java, etc that aren't huge piles of WTFery?

    I'm absolutely not claiming that web (or vb) is the only source of crap. Web stuff just happens to be the current focus of my frustrations these days because everything seems to be trivialised.

    I didn't realise web developers were so sensitive.  Should have guessed seeing as they're so good with colours.



  • @LoztInSpace said:

    I didn't realise web developers were so sensitive.
     

    I am not a 'web developer'.

    @LoztInSpace said:

    Should have guessed seeing as they're so good with colours.

    This is pretty lame trolling.



  • @LoztInSpace said:

    Web stuff just happens to be the current focus of my frustrations these days because everything seems to be trivialised.

    You can talk about it if you like. Trivialised in what way? You mean Bad Stuff judged not so bad "because it's web"?



  • @LoztInSpace said:

    Have I ever asked an online forum "I have check box.  How to get into database?  Plz send d codz"
     

    I'm a web app developer mostly, and I applaud LoztInSpace's list, especially the above line which was lulz producing. The insuffereable comments by Morbius show again his lack of a sense of humor and lack of experience. Anyone remotely intelligent working in the web application domain knows two things: 

    1. web application development can be as complex as any other type of development

    2. web application development has more lightweights, scripters, and talentless hacks than any other form of developement. 



  • @LoztInSpace said:

    <long list>

     I found it quite funny, actually.



  • @LoztInSpace said:

    Consider these questions:

    <long list of WTFness in webdevs>

    If you agree with/answered yes to any of the above then you are a Web 2.0 developer.

    FTFY.

    I also found this list funny. It isn't "teh web developer bible" but you've got to admit that many of those WTFs are common among "I R makin' web apps!" kiddies who just follow trends with disregard to "bloated" stuff like security, transactions, data integrity or even MVC models.



  • @chebrock said:

    The insuffereable comments by Morbius show again his lack of a sense of humor and lack of experience.

    My lack of experience?  You're the one who has never worked on a project more complicated than a form that sends off an email.

     

    @chebrock said:

    1. web application development can be as complex as any other type of development

    Yes, my point exactly.  It was LIS who stated otherwise.  Score 1 point for me.

     

    @chebrock said:

    2. web application development has more lightweights, scripters, and talentless hacks than any other form of developement. 

    Talentless hacks?  Don't be so hard on yourself, everyone has to start somewhere.  Your "somewhere" just happens to be significantly lower than mine.  Regardless, I don't think most web developers are as untalented as you seem to think, but you have more experience with the bottom of the well than I.  Thus, 1 point for you. 



  • @dhromed said:

    @LoztInSpace said:

    Web stuff just happens to be the current focus of my frustrations these days because everything seems to be trivialised.

    You can talk about it if you like. Trivialised in what way? You mean Bad Stuff judged not so bad "because it's web"?

    Yeah - that kind of thing.  Also things like overlooking the importance & complexity of intricate back end and buisness processes becuse certain elements can't see past the real issues, preferring instead to concentrate on whether the (completely wrong) output should be in blue or green.

    To be honest, the devs I work with right now are all way above most of the things I listed.  Most of it was inspired either from other places or stuff I've seen on various forums (including this one).  But hey - why let that get in the way of a good rant?



  • Let me just say that I think the list was funny.  But back to the OP...

    @rajdeep said:

    I am a software engineer and working on mostly my project in java basically all projects are Window based but some of project i m handling are web based...and the most thing that i am also working in PHP.so what do you think what is in me a software developer or a web developer...i need to judge myself... 

     

    Why can't you be both?  Also, work on sentence construction; this post was hard to take seriously.



  • @rajdeep said:

    a software developer or a web developer...
     

    Just add some skills in developing distributed applications and call yourself an Enterprise Applications Developer!



  • @chebrock said:

    @LoztInSpace said:

    Have I ever asked an online forum "I have check box.  How to get into database?  Plz send d codz"
     

    I'm a web app developer mostly, and I applaud LoztInSpace's list, especially the above line which was lulz producing. .....

    You'll like this then:  http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=107946

     



  • @LoztInSpace said:

    @chebrock said:

    @LoztInSpace said:

    Have I ever asked an online forum "I have check box.  How to get into database?  Plz send d codz"
     

    I'm a web app developer mostly, and I applaud LoztInSpace's list, especially the above line which was lulz producing. .....

    You'll like this then:  http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=107946

     

     I think I sprained my skull trying to interpret that mess.



  • @jpaull said:

    @LoztInSpace said:

    You'll like this then:  http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=107946

     I think I sprained my skull trying to interpret that mess.

    I think that was something like "Plz send me teh DB, codez... oh hell, do the app for me!"

    I love his answer on why he chose SQL server ... someone has an SQL Server so that's the solution. Ok, at least he didn't go for Access!



  • As a web developer, I find that list absolutely idiotic. Just because it may be true for you, or your friends, or the people you've worked with, doesn't mean the rest of us don't actually know what we're talking about.

     

    • Do I think that appearance is more important than an application that is useful - useful applications are of course desired. But when your client will not sign off and let you start coding until you agree to implement x stupid features, you don't get a choice.
    • Have I ever asked an online forum "I have check box.  How to get into database?  Plz send d codz" - Speak for yourself, maybe.
    • What's a data model?  I don't need one if it looks pretty, right? - Again, speak for yourself.
    • I don't think you need anything more than XML to store stuff - After you just mentioned databases two points above? What?
    • I am confident constructing SQL at the client side and passing it back to the server - You might like giving people all the tools necessary to destroy into your database, but I don't.
    • Javascript means I can stop crap getting to my back end - Some of us are smart enough to realize that people disable Javascript. You don't sound like you fit into that category.
    • MySQL Teh rox - I like it and use it.
    • I have a stupid goatee - I'm female and no I don't. Neither do any of the male developers I work with.
    • I think it's great to have menus poping up all over the place making my users throw the mouse around like a mad thing. - what?
    • Keyboard entry should be illegal - it gets in the way of my really clever transition effects.  I don't care if it's unusable -again, what?
    • You can never have too many different kinds of date controls.  Typing in dd/mm/yyyy means I don't get to show off my 733t javascript skilz - You use the date controls your client signs off on. Usually this takes the form of dropdown boxes, like 99.9999% of the websites on the internet.
    • I get all excited when I achieve something that non-web applications have taken for granted for years (e.g. a drop down list connected to a text edit box, a rich text editor etc.) - satisfied yes. Excited no.
    • I have designed a user interface whos use is completely different to everything else in the known universe.  Ha!  totally unique!  I don't care though - it's bound to be better than anything else anyone has ever thought of. - Designers don't generally develop, so I have no idea why this fits into a 'web developer' category.
    • Stateless stuff rox.  Gotta be stateless to be Enterprizey! However I will write a billion lines of code in order to maintain state throughout the use of my application. - that and most web development languages generally ARE stateless....
    • Layers.  Can't have enough layers. - what?
    • I don't think anyone should have the name O'Brien, O'Riely etc.  If I ever find that cunt Bobby O' Drop Tables I'll kill the fucker. - just because you don't know how to escape your strings...
    • I will take the credit for any web application even though all the clever stuff is in the back end - who said the web developer didn't do the back end? o.O
    • Timeouts are a "security feature".  Nothing to do with statelessness. Ahem. - For a lot of financial sites, they are a security feature.
    • My site is so important you have to log on. - When you're dealing with credit card information, yes.
    • I don't have a conflict writing the same thing 85 different times for different browsers and then claim to be platform independent out of the box. - what?
    • Everything is a string. - No.
    • I must change my development methodology/code library/framework every 2 months so I am incapable of actually building anything with any degree of stability - only if you suck.
    • I do not need to understand data, databases, data integrity, transactions or consistentcey.  Look!  The little icon whirls round and the page doesn't even refresh after you press the button!!!111oneone!  Please do not press the button twice though. - only if you suck.
    • I live in 'web time'.  Gimmie a screen over a well thought out requirement any time and give it to me NOW!! - I'd rather build a HTML page to a screenshot that the client has approved, rather than getting a wall of text on what the client wants on the page and then having to redo it later when they don't like the look of it.
    • My talents are misunderstood by LoztInSpace - obviously, because I have talents and you appear not to.

     



  • @chebrock said:

    web application development has more lightweights, scripters, and talentless hacks than any other form of developement. 
     

    I think that's the main issue with this debate; people are interpreting and/or using the term "web developer" in this thread to represent a "web scripter" (or a "web designer").

    A web developer is just as much a developer/programmer as any other programmer. Think of someone who writes lots of ASP.NET; they are writing a lot of server-side code with classes, inheritance, interfaces, data-binding, event handling, templates, controls, strongly-typed pre-compiled code, and so on.  That sounds like a developer to me.

    But then there are web scripter/designers; that's a different story.  And there's nothing wrong with a web scripter at all and certainly no shame in being one; they just don't have the formal developer's training and probably the only programming languge they've ever used is javascript.  Often they counter-act that with a great knowledge of the subtleties of HTML/CSS/Javascript from experience, along with great visual design skills and talent and experience with tools like Photoshop/Illustrator/Flash/etc far beyond what the average programmer can do.

    Think of it this way:  A web developer might make fun of the code a web scripter writes, but a web scripter would also make fun of the graphics/UI/layout/design that a web developer would create.

    And, by the way, I consider myself a web developer; my background and training is all purely programming, not design or usability.  I try to do design things here and there, and it's often OK (I guess) but certainly not original, catchy, creative or clever in any way.  very plain vanilla boring stuff.  

    Of course, then you have the rare individual who is a talented programmer and a great graphic/UI/layout designer, but that's probably the exception more than the rule.   It's very hard to be an expert in everything, it's tough to focus competently on a wide variety of roles in excel in them all.

     



  • @Becky said:

    As a web developer .... blah blah blah

    You wrote loads of stuff but completely overlooked the entire reason for my post existing in the first place, misinterpreted any attributation of the qualities listed and failed to address any of the issues I was trying to highlight with anything approaching a respectable retort, mostly missing the point completely.

    Way to go to prove my point.  Lots of content but essentially shallow and trivial.  Well done!

    </div class="total spastic"> 

     



  • @LoztInSpace said:

    You wrote loads of stuff but completely overlooked the entire reason for my post existing in the first place, misinterpreted any attributation of the qualities listed and failed to address any of the issues I was trying to highlight with anything approaching a respectable retort, mostly missing the point completely.

    Way to go to prove my point.  Lots of content but essentially shallow and trivial.  Well done!

    </div class="total spastic"> 

     

     

    Perhaps her point was simply that a web developer would not  answer yes to any of those questions or agree with those points.  That is, she is a web developer, and she demonstrated that she doesn't agree with your points, so what does that make her in your mind ???

    Again, you are thinking of a web designer or a web scripter when you made your lists, not a web developer.  Saying that a web developer for some reason cannot be a strong programmer is completely wrong.




  • @Jeff S said:

    Perhaps her point was simply that a web developer would not  answer yes to any of those questions or agree with those points.

     

    Oh please.  She's missed the point - anyone can see that.

    @Jeff S said:

    Again, you are thinking of a web designer or a web scripter when you made your lists, not a web developer.  Saying that a web developer for some reason cannot be a strong programmer is completely wrong.

    Chebrock summed it up very well a few posts back.

    @Chebrock said:

     

    1. web application development can be as complex as any other type of development

    2. web application development has more lightweights, scripters, and talentless hacks than any other form of developement. 

    Becky's post does not defend the web developers' corner very well.



  • @LoztInSpace said:

    @Becky said:

    As a web developer .... blah blah blah

    You wrote loads of stuff but completely overlooked the entire reason for my post existing in the first place, misinterpreted any attributation of the qualities listed and failed to address any of the issues I was trying to highlight with anything approaching a respectable retort, mostly missing the point completely.

    Way to go to prove my point.  Lots of content but essentially shallow and trivial.  Well done!

    </div class="total spastic"> 

     

     

    Becky obviously didn't take your post as humor (which it was).  However, this reply is just fucking stupid.  Why not just say, "look, I was joking and generalizing.  Obviously some web devs are good, but many exhibit the characteristics in my post."  Instead you come back and tell her basically that her post was so stupid that she's obviously a stupid web developer.  Great logic.



  • I didn't take it as humour because it wasn't funny. It's that simple.



  • @Becky said:

    I didn't take it as humour because it wasn't funny. It's that simple.

    I didn't think it was all that funny either.  I also think there was an arrogant aspect to it that seemed flamebaitish.  However, it's not really worth arguing or worrying about.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    @Becky said:

    I didn't take it as humour because it wasn't funny. It's that simple.

    I didn't think it was all that funny either.  I also think there was an arrogant aspect to it that seemed flamebaitish.  However, it's not really worth arguing or worrying about.

     

    For fuck's sake people.  Just because you don't find something funny doesn't mean that it wasn't humor.

     

    Becky,

    You need to work on your empathy.  Try and understand other people's feelings and their view of the world.

     

    Morbius,

    You know many lawyers love and tell lawyer jokes.  Just because you make a joke about something doesn't mean you hate those things.  Shit, he might be a web-developer and was poking fun at the stereotype.



  • @tster said:

    Morbius,

    You know many lawyers love and tell lawyer jokes.  Just because you make a joke about something doesn't mean you hate those things.  Shit, he might be a web-developer and was poking fun at the stereotype.

    Not likely, seeing as he posted some other misinformed and flamebaitish stuff in another thread at the same time.  He also argued fairly strongly that he believed web developers were generally bad. 



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    @tster said:

    Morbius,

    You know many lawyers love and tell lawyer jokes.  Just because you make a joke about something doesn't mean you hate those things.  Shit, he might be a web-developer and was poking fun at the stereotype.

    Not likely, seeing as he posted some other misinformed and flamebaitish stuff in another thread at the same time.  He also argued fairly strongly that he believed web developers were generally bad. 

     

    hmmm, I guess I didn't read that.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    My lack of experience?  You're the one who has never worked on a project more complicated than a form that sends off an email.

     

    You know how to do that? Plz send teh codez!

     

    PS - I actually found the list quite funny (I do web and app dev).


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