HR and Vacation



  • @Nelle said:

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    This entire thread's argument is based on Europeans and their perception of us through our media. 
     

     

    FTFY 

     

    It's well known in the US that our media actually hates our country.



  • @ammoQ said:

    Or maybe you think that just because something is stupid and unsustainable, it doesn't happen. As if all people were as intelligent as you are.
     

    If you actually read JCW's argument she did imply the guy was stably over using credit for a long period of time.  Therefore, my argument was that sounds ridiculous and is likely her perception due to her [admitted] bitterness.

     

    Sorry, but once again people are taking the argument off track. 

    Not all (or even that large a percentage) of Americans are living beyond their means in potential credit ruin.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    If you actually read JCW's argument she did imply the guy was stably over using credit for a long period of time.  Therefore, my argument was that sounds ridiculous and is likely her perception due to her [admitted] bitterness.

    Well at least I have to admit that she knows him better than I do. Or you do, for the record.

    Not all (or even that large a percentage) of Americans are living beyond their means in potential credit ruin.

    Agreed. But the subprime crisis actually did happen. And considering the flood of mortgage-spam mails around 2005, it seems likely to me that many lenders didn't care too much about the credit worthiness of the borrowers - they planed to sell the credits to stupid-greedy Swiss, German and American banks anyway.So there were people stupid enough to borrow (though they couldn't afford it) and people stupid enough to buy those mortgage-backed securities. I've read stories about immigrant taxi drivers with a 300K mortgage. Guess they were not as clever as we are.



  • @wooter said:

    I'm betting if you would ask my wife, who's canadian, about job negotiations, she might have something to say as an ex-employment resource specialist.

    What does Canada have to do with the US?

     

    @wooter said:

    Not to mention that any "time off", paid or unpaid, is not paid during the period you have your time off.

    Obviously unpaid time off is never paid, this goes without saying.  Why would paid time off not be paid normally?  Seriously, what the hell are you talking about?

     

    @wooter said:

    Without collective bargaining, there would be no 8 hour workdays in Europe.  There would be no 20 vacation days in Europe.  There would be no 40 hours of work for one week.  What there would be, is what we had around 1850: the aristocratic class had time, the working class had work.

    The aristocracy was not built on capitalism or free markets, it was built on coercion through violence, the same method your government uses to establish mandatory vacation times.

     

    @wooter said:

    Surviving meant for that working class to work 16 hours a day.  Not surprisingly, the same number of hours the US citizen and member of the working class is doing in the US.

    Are you actually implying Americans work 16 hour work days?  Now I know you're just being a flaming retard.

     

    @wooter said:

    Now that's a lot of horsecrap.  So, you are saying that a single mother working 16 hours a day is choosing to be uninsured?  That someone working as a stock refiller at Wal-mart is choosing to be uninsured? Maybe you are talking about the same choice they have to accept or not accept the basic job offer in which the employer draws up the rules, because many people seem eager to fill those spots for the simple reason of survival.

    More of this 16 hour work-week idiocy?  And yes, most people choose to be uninsured.  The really poor get free health insurance, the people who can afford it are expected to buy their own.  It costs about $40 a month for a young, reasonably healthy person to obtain major medical insurance.  Most of these "single mothers" and "stock refillers" you are crying about find more than that much to buy cigarettes, beer and cable TV.

     

    @wooter said:

    Which, by your logic, then means that 50% of the working class can just drop dead on the spot?  Because they choose to have crappy skills?

    What the fuck are you talking about?  I was correcting your idiotic "you only make what your employer wants to pay you" statement.  Who said anything about the working class dropping dead?

     

    @wooter said:

    If US citizens make 33% more, I start to wonder where all that money goes.  In all aspects, Dutch  citizens enjoy a higher standard living than US citizens.

    There is no "if", US citizens do make more.  And no, you do not enjoy a higher standard of living.  At this point, I'm assuming your public education system is so shitty that you probably only have textbooks from the 19th century.  Next you'll be complaining about the dastardly Spanish and their plan to conquer the world.

     

    @wooter said:

    It amazes me how ignorant you are about your own country.

    I'm not ignorant of my own country, you are ignorant of my country you dipshit.  You also seem to be ignorant of your country's place in the world as well.

     

    @wooter said:

    But I digress, this is exactly the reason why the US and its citizens will keep doing wrong what they were doing wrong before.

    This isn't digression.  Stop using words you don't know the meanings of.

     

    @wooter said:

    Let's just say, I enjoy living in a country where I can live and develop my life without a credit card.

    You can develop your life just fine without a credit card here.  However, there can also be plenty of advantages to credit if it is used intelligently.  I'd ask you to stop spouting bullshit, but I get the feeling that you'd be completely silent then.  Wait, that wouldn't be so bad after all... 



  • @tster said:

    3.  It is not Communism that you are refering to Morbius, it is Socialism.

    Socialism is Communism Lite.  Obviously Communism is such a massive failure that the only way to make it work is to tack bits of it on to a successful market economy.  That's what Socialism is, don't buy into the newspeak.  Communism is the worst idea anybody has ever had.  It has destroyed more lives than any other single ideology in the history of man.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    @tster said:

    3.  It is not Communism that you are refering to Morbius, it is Socialism.

    Socialism is Communism Lite.  Obviously Communism is such a massive failure that the only way to make it work is to tack bits of it on to a successful market economy.  That's what Socialism is, don't buy into the newspeak.  Communism is the worst idea anybody has ever had.  It has destroyed more lives than any other single ideology in the history of man.

     

    I hope you know that I am about the most right wing person on the internet.  I love free markets in every way and hate communism and socialism in every way.  What I was trying to say was that Communism is a form of government while Socialism is an economic system.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    Socialism is Communism Lite.

    No it's not. 

    @morbiuswilters said:
    It has destroyed more lives than any other single ideology in the history of man.
     

    Not really ... Christianity still leeds since it had a good head start ...

     



  • @Nelle said:

    @morbiuswilters said:
    It has destroyed more lives than any other single ideology in the history of man.
     

    Not really ... Christianity still leeds since it had a good head start ... 

     

     proof or get the fuck out.  Here is the number of people communism has killed.

    http://www.digitalsurvivors.com/archives/communistbodycount.php

     



  • @tster said:

    I hope you know that I am about the most right wing person on the internet.  I love free markets in every way and hate communism and socialism in every way.  What I was trying to say was that Communism is a form of government while Socialism is an economic system.

    I understand that, but they are both forms of government imposition on the economy.  The only difference is that Socialism cannot be as far-reaching as Communism because it would fail utterly, so it has to be attached to a market economy it can feed off of. 



  • @tster said:

    proof or get the fuck out.  Here is the number of people communism has killed.

    http://www.digitalsurvivors.com/archives/communistbodycount.php

     

    Thanks for some backup.  I knew it was ~150 million, but didn't have a link handy. 



  •  here is a link that flat out says that communism killed more than christianity.  http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newscholars.com%2Fpapers%2FKilling%2C%20Christianity%2C%20and%20Atheism.pdf&ei=dGNiSJzbBJagebHtwM0E&usg=AFQjCNHu6oUTsjkJExCr4dhaKGYGdpBzyQ&sig2=9QlayCpWkjA8d9ri-JoM3g

     

    Seriously, I'm an atheist, but I get tired of people going around saying christianity has killed more people than <insert whatever it is they like>...  Seriously, unless you have some proof, just shut your fucking mouth and stop spewing bullshit.



  • @tster said:

    Seriously, I'm an atheist, but I get tired of people
     

    Indeed, I could be defined as an Atheist as well, but I am ashamed these days to put that label on myself anymore, with all the retards out there who call themselves the same thing and spout serious nonsense.



  •  morbiuswilters,

    Regarding our 19th century textbooks you claim we have...

    Regarding our lower standards of living you claim we have...

    There is only one ignorant flaming moron, and that is you.

    But I enjoy a good ignorant American moron who still thinks he is living in the country of the free (where any border passing is costing you an extra hour, a frisk and leaving your fingerprints). They make the best laughing stock 😃

    In the end, it is not me who has to worry about a credit report, lack of holidays or being afraid to lose my job if I would fall ill - if I was still an employee.  But the hefty increase in my paycheck as a freelancer makes up for that.

     



  • @wooter said:

    But I enjoy a good ignorant American moron who still thinks he is living in the country of the free (where any border passing is costing you an extra hour, a frisk and leaving your fingerprints).
     

    Wow. You really have been mislead.

    I have done plenty of travelling outside of the country, and I don't get bothered coming or going.

     

    Maybe you should actually do some research and know what you are talking about before spouting crap on the internet?

    @wooter said:

    it is not me who has to worry about a credit report,

    Nor do we.

    @wooter said:

    lack of holidays

    I get lots of paid holidays, I don't understand your point.

    @wooter said:

    being afraid to lose my job if I would fall ill

    If I fall ill, my health insurance pays for my treatment, and my job is guaranteed. Sorry, you lose.

    @wooter said:

    But the hefty increase in my paycheck as a freelancer makes up for that.

    In other words: "Unemployed."

    Have fun when YOU get sick and you cannot find work, and can't make money. I know I am not worried for me, but you seem to have a whole lot to worry about.



  • @wooter said:

    But I enjoy a good ignorant American moron who still thinks he is living in the country of the free (where any border passing is costing you an extra hour, a frisk and leaving your fingerprints). They make the best laughing stock 😃
    Where do you get this stuff? I happened to reenter the US on Monday after a short vacation. All they do is check my passport and my customs declaration, just like any other country.



  • @bstorer said:

    [Where do you get this stuff? I happened to reenter the US on Monday after a short vacation. All they do is check my passport and my customs declaration, just like any other country.

    Were you entering on a US or Foreign passport? Because customs and immigration has taken a liking to fingerprinting non-residents.

    In fact when they started doing so Brazil implemented a matching policy of finger printing US citizens arriving in that country. It managed to piss off quite a few US tourists until they were told what the US was doing at its border crossings. I think the Brazilians also made a big show of finger printing the planes pilot as well.



  • @OzPeter said:

    Were you entering on a US or Foreign passport? Because customs and immigration has taken a liking to fingerprinting non-residents.
    US passport, of course. Fingerprinting non-residents is a different matter entirely. wooter's statement was that he "enjoy[s] a good ignorant American moron who still thinks he is living in the country of the free (where any border passing is costing you an extra hour, a frisk and leaving your fingerprints)." Such a statement is patently false, and clearly demonstrates his ignorance on the United States.
    @OzPeter said:
    In fact when they started doing so Brazil implemented a matching policy of finger printing US citizens arriving in that country. It managed to piss off quite a few US tourists until they were told what the US was doing at its border crossings. I think the Brazilians also made a big show of finger printing the planes pilot as well.
    I find such a retaliation amusing and encourage it whole-heartedly. It speaks to the child in me.



  • @OzPeter said:

    Because customs and immigration has taken a liking to fingerprinting non-residents.
     

    As they should. We need to protect our borders, after all.




  • @tster said:

    Here is the number of people communism has killed.
     

    From your article :

    "The following estimates represent citizens killed or starved to death
    by their own Communist governments since 1918. These numbers do not
    include war dead. The governments are sorted by body count (highest to
    lowest)."

    So start with :

    then go to :

    oh i almost forgot : http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquista ...there you can find some further 50 milion souls saved ...

    Your article further states that the deaths are responsibility of the comunist goverments. In the same way, all deaths in prisons in the middle ages, as well as deaths of hunger could be attributed to the christian rulers who ruled the lands at the time ... and since the original article includes a whopping 38000000 people died of famine, which was contributed to the chinese goverment, then you can take a look at :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Irish_Famine

    after you are done adding, please take into account the population of the world then and now ...  

    and i even don't give a shit about religion or communism, but i find it quite amusing to see the reactions of americans to the word communism ... probably remnants of the media campaigns from the cold war ... 




  • @Nelle said:

    Your article further states that the deaths are responsibility of the comunist goverments. In the same way, all deaths in prisons in the middle ages, as well as deaths of hunger could be attributed to the christian rulers who ruled the lands at the time ... and since the original article includes a whopping 38000000 people died of famine, which was contributed to the chinese goverment, then you can take a look at :
     

    The deaths in Communist countries were not accidental, there is no comparing it that way.  The famine in China did not have to happen, it was forced the leaders.  In fact, I know of no famine in human history that was not caused by bullshit political interference with the economy. 

     

    @Nelle said:

    and i even don't give a shit about religion or communism, but i find it quite amusing to see the reactions of americans to the word communism ... probably remnants of the media campaigns from the cold war ... 

    So I guess you think it's amusing to watch Jews react to the word Nazi, eh?  Communism has killed far more people than Facism.  It has nothing to do with propaganda, we aren't a nation of brainwashed morons who believe whatever the TV tells them, unlike Europe.



  • @bstorer said:

    wooter's statement was that he "enjoy[s] a good ignorant American moron who still thinks he is living in the country of the free (where any border passing is costing you an extra hour, a frisk and leaving your fingerprints)." Such a statement is patently false, and clearly demonstrates his ignorance on the United States.

    From wooters perspective on US immigration of being a non-US resident, I totally understand where he is coming from. From my own experiences of entering the US on non-resident visas over a decade dealing with US immigration you can come out feeling dirty and violated - let alone a good hour spent waiting in the queue (as experienced as LAX) before you even get to the interrogation (although I think the worst experience I witnessed was a UK customs official at Manchester dealing with an asian man who did understand English all too well - it was painful to watch. The best experience I had was flirting with this hot chick at the customs desk in Moscow!).

    As to land of the free etc that could also be up for debate in some respects if you compare the (sweeping generalisation) liberalism of Europe with the (sweeping generalisation) conservatism of the US. It astounded me a few years ago that there were parts of SW VA that still had laws on the books against dancing in public. So it is hard to reconcile the US political freedom with the huge number of laws enacted to ensure you maintain the "correct" societal behaviour.



  • @Nelle said:

    @tster said:

    Here is the number of people communism has killed.
     

    From your article :

    "The following estimates represent citizens killed or starved to death
    by their own Communist governments since 1918. These numbers do not
    include war dead. The governments are sorted by body count (highest to
    lowest)."

    So start with :

    then go to :

    oh i almost forgot : http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquista ...there you can find some further 50 milion souls saved ...

    Your article further states that the deaths are responsibility of the comunist goverments. In the same way, all deaths in prisons in the middle ages, as well as deaths of hunger could be attributed to the christian rulers who ruled the lands at the time ... and since the original article includes a whopping 38000000 people died of famine, which was contributed to the chinese goverment, then you can take a look at :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Irish_Famine

    after you are done adding, please take into account the population of the world then and now ...  

    and i even don't give a shit about religion or communism, but i find it quite amusing to see the reactions of americans to the word communism ... probably remnants of the media campaigns from the cold war ... 

     

    I count famine caused by the chinese and soviet governments because it was famine caused by communism.  By following communism and adhering to it, those famines were created.  The Irish Potato Famine was caused (believe it or not) by the failing of the potato crop due to a disease.  Christianty is not responsible for the failure of the potato crop.  Communism was responsible for the lack of food in China and Russia.  

    Also, conquistadors were after gold.  Futhermore, it's hard to claim thatthe deaths by disease caused by christian settlers in the Americas are the responsability of Christianity itself.  If it weren't for Christianity, those people would still have gone there, and they would have carried the same disease.  



  • @OzPeter said:

    As to land of the free etc that could also be up for debate in some respects if you compare the (sweeping generalisation) liberalism of Europe with the (sweeping generalisation) conservatism of the US. It astounded me a few years ago that there were parts of SW VA that still had laws on the books against dancing in public. So it is hard to reconcile the US political freedom with the huge number of laws enacted to ensure you maintain the "correct" societal behaviour.

     

    citing old laws that are unenforced (and are unenforcable because they violate our own Constitution) is a pretty poor argument to say that we are not free. 



  • @OzPeter said:

    I totally understand where he is coming from
     

    Apparently not, because he specifically said Americans get hassled at the borders. So you clearly do not understand the argument.

    @OzPeter said:

    (sweeping generalisation) liberalism of Europe with the (sweeping generalisation) conservatism of the US

    You mean like how here our citizens who prove themselves qualified are allowed to own weapons, and in most of Europe you can't? Like the UK trying to ban kitchen knives you mean?

    C'mon now, I think you are talking out of your ass again.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    C'mon now, I think you are talking out of your ass again.

    Oh you seem to be lost, this the argumentative forum. I think you want the children's section down the hallway. Thats where you'll find the rest of the kiddies playing personal abuse games.



  • @OzPeter said:

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:
    C'mon now, I think you are talking out of your ass again.

    Oh you seem to be lost, this the argumentative forum. I think you want the children's section down the hallway. Thats where you'll find the rest of the kiddies playing personal abuse games.
     

    I'm sorry that you can't take someone calling you out for posting stupid ass comments.  Honestly, if you can't handle someone making a point and then telling you to stop posting your unbased opinions as some kind of fact, then don't bother posting.



  • @tster said:

    The Irish Potato Famine was caused (believe it or not) by the failing of the potato crop due to a disease.

    Not directly, believe it or not.  It was mostly caused by the British taking control of most of Ireland's farmland.  Absentee landlords maintained massive estates and paid the Irish very little to farm them.  Despite several years of potato crop losses, Ireland had net exports of food during the entire "famine".  This means that even while people were starving, food was being grown and shipped to England for sale.  The English landowners profited the entire time.  On top of this were a number of mercantilist laws meant to protect the profits of the British at the expense of her colonies, including Ireland.  Just like the famines in Communist China, those in Ireland were the direct result of government meddling in the market and restrictive laws that took economic decisions out of the hands of the "ignorant Irish" and put them into the hands of the "enlightened English government".  Sounds kind of like something our Dutch friends would approve of, hmm?



  • @wooter said:

    The reality is: US citizens are only free in deciding wheither they want to play ball by the rules defined by their employers, or be poor schmucks.

     <hints id="hah_hints"></hints>
    What about the freedom to choose to work for another employer - or be self-employed?  Or start your own business?

    And if you don't possess the physical or mental capacity to do any of those things, then what right do you have to complain, let alone demand more?

    It's not as though 6 mandatory vacation weeks changes this situation, either.  If you want 46 weeks of vacation per year in Germany, you still have to negotiate for them before you sign any contract.

    Employment and the compensation therein is not a god-given right.  It's merely a contract between two parties, and like any other contract, it's your own responsibility if you sign an unfair contract without reading it or negotiating first. 



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    You mean like how here our citizens who prove themselves qualified are allowed to own weapons, and in most of Europe you can't? Like the UK trying to ban kitchen knives you mean?

     

    I don't know the gun laws in the UK, but I'm sure that guns can be legaly owned in most European countries. For my own country, I can say for sure that it's possible to legaly own guns. You might argue that some kinds of guns (i.e. semiautomatic rifles and pump action shotguns) are not legal here, but there are enough other guns one can legaly own.



  • @Aaron said:

    Employment and the compensation therein is not a god-given right.  It's merely a contract between two parties, and like any other contract, it's your own responsibility if you sign an unfair contract without reading it or negotiating first. 
     

    If you consider the European history of the 19th century, and compare that to the American history of that time, you will probably realize why Europeans put more emphasis on mandatory vacation, maximum work times etc. It's because in the second half of the 19th century, workers were completely exploitet by employers. They couldn't negotiate a better contract or work for another company under better terms. And since the situation was also seen as a race between nations - who will lead in industrialisation - politicans did all they could to keep workers as cheap and busy as possible. E.g. German politicans says: If we allow our workers to form unions so they have a better stand in negotiations, England will win. In terms of work conditions and wages, it was clearly the worst race to the bottom one can image. That was the time when Karl Marx wrote "Das Kapital". For several reasons, I don't think it was that bad in the US, but feel free to correct me.

    And trust me, absolutely nobody here wants to get rid of those mandatory vacation days, not even the federation of employers. Of course one is always free to become self-employed and work as much as he wants to... In my country, it's relatively easy to work self-employed in a pseudo-employed way (so you work for only one "customer", who gives you a place in his office etc.) but the same is not true in all European countries, e.g. definitely not in Germany.



  • @ammoQ said:

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    You mean like how here our citizens who prove themselves qualified are allowed to own weapons, and in most of Europe you can't? Like the UK trying to ban kitchen knives you mean?

     

    I don't know the gun laws in the UK, but I'm sure that guns can be legaly owned in most European countries. For my own country, I can say for sure that it's possible to legaly own guns. You might argue that some kinds of guns (i.e. semiautomatic rifles and pump action shotguns) are not legal here, but there are enough other guns one can legaly own.

     

    I am aware. This was an attempt to use more faulty logic like "Americans are not free because there is some old, unenforceable law on the books somewhere in VA.".

    I guess it worked.



  • Oh well. I do like your ideas of "free will" and "freedom of choice", but as my wife puts it "how can you talk about free will or free choice if the only job openings for employment resource specialists include a maximum of 10 paid holidays, and a maximum of 5 sick days?".  Once they unionized to negiotiate better terms - because individual negiotiations did not work - the whole staff got laid off and their employment resource center closed down.

    Sure it is no hot job in IT, but many people in North-America have not gotten the chance to even get a decent enough credit rating to pay for decent schooling so thay they can change their lifes for the better, and then brag on the internet about freedom of choice, what a slackers the working class are and how it is their free will to live on the verge of bankrupcy.

    As for you thinking I'm unemployed... I'll chalk that up next to your delusions that education, healthcare and the general standard of living are below the US.  I don't expect you to realise that by acting as a typical American ignorant prick, you are only enforcing the stereotype.  I mean, from a safe distance, deranged patriotism is quite funny :).



  • @wooter said:

    Oh well. I do like your ideas of "free will" and "freedom of choice", but as my wife puts it "how can you talk about free will or free choice if the only job openings for employment resource specialists include a maximum of 10 paid holidays, and a maximum of 5 sick days?".  Once they unionized to negiotiate better terms - because individual negiotiations did not work - the whole staff got laid off and their employment resource center closed down.
    Damn you, laissez-faire economics! Your centuries of successful results are merely a fluke! We better government-mandate higher amounts of leave, because there will be no negative repercussions of such a move whatsoever! What could possibly go wrong?
    @wooter said:
    Sure it is no hot job in IT, but many people in North-America have not gotten the chance to even get a decent enough credit rating to pay for decent schooling so thay they can change their lifes for the better, and then brag on the internet about freedom of choice, what a slackers the working class are and how it is their free will to live on the verge of bankrupcy.
    I don't know what you're talking about here. Do you even know? What is clear is that you don't understand credit ratings, socioeconomics, the US education system, or the economic status of the United States. But other than that, great point.



  • @ammoQ said:

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    You mean like how here our citizens who prove themselves qualified are allowed to own weapons, and in most of Europe you can't? Like the UK trying to ban kitchen knives you mean?

     

    I don't know the gun laws in the UK, but I'm sure that guns can be legaly owned in most European countries. For my own country, I can say for sure that it's possible to legaly own guns. You might argue that some kinds of guns (i.e. semiautomatic rifles and pump action shotguns) are not legal here, but there are enough other guns one can legaly own.

     

    why the fuck can't you own a pump action shotgun?  It's the single best type of gun for home defense.  No other gun even comes close.



  •  

    @wooter said:

    Oh well. I do like your ideas of "free will" and "freedom of choice", but as my wife puts it "how can you talk about free will or free choice if the only job openings for employment resource specialists include a maximum of 10 paid holidays, and a maximum of 5 sick days?".  Once they unionized to negiotiate better terms - because individual negiotiations did not work - the whole staff got laid off and their employment resource center closed down.


    Don't you think that might be because they are all whiny and don't deserve the jobs as much as other qualified people that are happy with a normal amount of vacation?
    Seriously, this is pretty stupid, but I cannot figure out why the hell you posted this. What does this have to do with anything?
    So your wife is not very bright or talented and works a menial job. She gets compensated in a menial way. She should learn to be a more valuable asset to someone, and she might be able to negotiate. This is the point of what morb has been saying. You and your wife should be entitled to nothing. You should have to work for what you think you deserve.

    @wooter said:
    Sure it is no hot job in IT, but many people in North-America have not gotten the chance to even get a decent enough credit rating to pay for decent schooling so thay they can change their lifes for the better, and then brag on the internet about freedom of choice, what a slackers the working class are and how it is their free will to live on the verge of bankrupcy.


    WTF are you even talking about? Did you eat extra retard pills this morning? Maybe it is just your failure to quote properly, but I have no idea WTF you are talking about here.
    I cannot figure out for the life of me what you are trying to say or how this has anything to do with what is being argued in this thread.

    @wooter said:
    As for you thinking I'm unemployed... I'll chalk that up next to your delusions that education, healthcare and the general standard of living are below the US.  I don't expect you to realise that by acting as a typical American ignorant prick, you are only enforcing the stereotype.  I mean, from a safe distance, deranged patriotism is quite funny :).

    Actually, you are the one spreading the anti-American FUD here. Why don't you stop being the typical ignorant European with his head up his ass. If you don't like America[ns] so much, how about you stay in your little country and fight for your right to take month long vacations?

    You came here spouting nonsense, and this post is another example. Seriously, go find something else to do.



  • @tster said:

    why the fuck can't you own a pump action shotgun?  It's the single best type of gun for home defense.  No other gun even comes close.
     

    Because Europeans find them 'scary'. Anything they deem 'scary' they just ban.



  • @tster said:

    why the fuck can't you own a pump action shotgun?  It's the single best type of gun for home defense.  No other gun even comes close.
     

    It was legal for many years, but it was forbidden when it became the favorite weapon for some kind criminals (mostly organized crime). AFAIK there were about 0 cases of a pumpgun actually used for home defense in Austria, but several cases of murder. The decission to ban the pumpguns was not undisputed, though, many owners asked "why do i have to give it away when i did nothing wrong?"



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Because Europeans find them 'scary'. Anything they deem 'scary' they just ban.

    Of course some Americans finding dancing scary and banning that would never happen. Nah never could.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Because Europeans find them 'scary'. Anything they deem 'scary' they just ban.
     

    Well, some countries are known to start a war when they find something 'scary'.



  • @ammoQ said:

    Well, some countries are known to start a war when they find something 'scary'.
     

    That is a shitty excuse for what your region did.



  • @OzPeter said:

    Of course some Americans finding dancing scary and banning that would never happen. Nah never could.
     

    That's right. It couldn't. We have this thing called the constitution that protects us from this.



  • @ammoQ said:

    If you consider the European history of the 19th century, and compare that to the American history of that time, you will probably realize why Europeans put more emphasis on mandatory vacation, maximum work times etc. It's because in the second half of the 19th century, workers were completely exploitet by employers. They couldn't negotiate a better contract or work for another company under better terms.

    The history of workers being exploited in many countries is indisputable.  However, you're committing a post-hoc fallacy here assuming that government-mandated vacation time was the fix, or even part of it.

    The 19th century was the end of a transition from older political and economic systems (generally feudalism and mercantilism) to newer ones (democracy and open markets).  Beforehand, there simply weren't many jobs to be had, because the economic systems in place at the time coupled with very limited protection of private property didn't allow new jobs to be created.  It was only natural that landowners and employers exploited the workers because workers were in abundance and desirable jobs were not.

    What really made the most difference for workers was the industrial revolution and explosion of the job market.  It was the ability of the common worker to simply find a new job.  That finally forced employers to start competing for labour resources and offering more attractive compensation.  America had similar growing pains, but perhaps not as many, precisely because it was quicker to give individuals the necessary freedoms.

    There's a valid argument to be made that unions also played some part in this as well.  Politically, however, this is almost the exact opposite of mandatory time-off.  Protecting the rights of individuals to form unions is part of democratic capitalism; it delivers a freedom, not a guarantee, and places no resource demands on anyone else.  Guaranteed vacation minimums was a socialist element that somehow got stapled onto the bill, and because people like vacation (duh), they also like to give it the most credit.

    And trust me, absolutely nobody here wants to get rid of those mandatory vacation days, not even the federation of employers.

     <hints id="hah_hints"></hints>
    The fact that people don't want to get rid of them is kind of a red herring.  Of course people don't want to get rid of their vacation days.  However, I personally know a few Europeans (from Sweden, Italy, UK) who moved to the US or Canada and, after spending a few months here, agreed that it made a lot more sense not to mandate such a high amount (although of course they missed their long vacations).  And I don't know that many Europeans, so I'd have to assume they're a reasonably representative sample and that it's not just the law of averages at work.

    Not to mention that French citizens bitch about their crazy labour laws all the time.  I'm not sure if I've heard vacation days mentioned independently in the various tirades, but you can usually find a reference in there somewhere. 



  • @tster said:

    why the fuck can't you own a pump action shotgun?  It's the single best type of gun for home defense.  No other gun even comes close.

     <hints id="hah_hints"></hints>
    I'm curious (not arguing) - why is it so much better than a simple handgun?



  • @Aaron said:

    I'm curious (not arguing) - why is it so much better than a simple handgun?
     

    • Easier to aim in the dark (doesn't demand quite as fine accuracy).
    • Great stopping power.
    • Less penetration (less chance of killing a loved one through a wall).
    • Easy to mount a light to.
    • Can also be used in a hand to hand way, used as a club or other weapon. This provides less than lethal options if needed.
    • Typically cheaper.
    • As far as the pump action, it is more reliable than a semi auto and typically holds more backup rounds than a single/double shot.

     

    FYI: Usually home defense experts recommend a .410 pump action. It is deemed 'ideal' for all the various issues that come to play in home defense.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    @OzPeter said:

    Of course some Americans finding dancing scary and banning that would never happen. Nah never could.
     

    That's right. It couldn't. We have this thing called the constitution that protects us from this.

    Thats OK .. you keep believing that and everything will be all OK for you.

    [snigger]



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    @Aaron said:

    I'm curious (not arguing) - why is it so much better than a simple handgun?
     

    • Easier to aim in the dark (doesn't demand quite as fine accuracy).
    • Great stopping power.
    • Less penetration (less chance of killing a loved one through a wall).
    • Easy to mount a light to.
    • Can also be used in a hand to hand way, used as a club or other weapon. This provides less than lethal options if needed.
    • Typically cheaper.
    • As far as the pump action, it is more reliable than a semi auto and typically holds more backup rounds than a single/double shot.

     

    FYI: Usually home defense experts recommend a .410 pump action. It is deemed 'ideal' for all the various issues that come to play in home defense.

     

    Another reason a pump shotgun is better than a semi automatic shotgun is that it makes a loud, distinct sound that can be heard outside the room.  Most criminals will be familiar with this noise and will not wait around to see if it actually is someone about to shoot them.



  • @OzPeter said:

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    @OzPeter said:

    Of course some Americans finding dancing scary and banning that would never happen. Nah never could.
     

    That's right. It couldn't. We have this thing called the constitution that protects us from this.

    Thats OK .. you keep believing that and everything will be all OK for you.

    [snigger]

     

    you're kind of a dumbass.  The constitution has successfuly defended people burning our own flag.  I don't think it's going to fail to protect people dancing in the street.  Here's the text:

    "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech..."



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    @Aaron said:

    I'm curious (not arguing) - why is it so much better than a simple handgun?
     

    • Easier to aim in the dark (doesn't demand quite as fine accuracy).
    • Great stopping power.
    • Less penetration (less chance of killing a loved one through a wall).
    • Easy to mount a light to.
    • Can also be used in a hand to hand way, used as a club or other weapon. This provides less than lethal options if needed.
    • Typically cheaper.
    • As far as the pump action, it is more reliable than a semi auto and typically holds more backup rounds than a single/double shot.

     

    FYI: Usually home defense experts recommend a .410 pump action. It is deemed 'ideal' for all the various issues that come to play in home defense.

    You forgot:

    • It only takes one shot with a shotgun to kill a zombie, but usually 2 or 3 from a handgun.
    • If you happen to be stuck in a rural barn during the Zombie Apocalypse, it's way easier to find shotgun shells than handgun rounds inside the owner's home.  Just keep in mind that even if you are positive you saw him die in a tractor accident, he may be hiding in the poorly-lit corner of the basement/cellar/crawlspace where the ammunition is located.
    • WIth a pump-action you can do that cool one-handed thing to cycle through the magazine which is totally badass and worth it, even if it slows down your rate of zombie-killing. 

     

    Also, I figure I might as well be the first to say it:  Next you'll be wanting an ICBM or a free ride in a military tank for home defense.



  • @Aaron said:

    @ammoQ said:

    If you consider the European history of the 19th century, and compare that to the American history of that time, you will probably realize why Europeans put more emphasis on mandatory vacation, maximum work times etc. It's because in the second half of the 19th century, workers were completely exploitet by employers. They couldn't negotiate a better contract or work for another company under better terms.

    The history of workers being exploited in many countries is indisputable.  However, you're committing a post-hoc fallacy here assuming that government-mandated vacation time was the fix, or even part of it.

    The 19th century was the end of a transition from older political and economic systems (generally feudalism and mercantilism) to newer ones (democracy and open markets).  Beforehand, there simply weren't many jobs to be had, because the economic systems in place at the time coupled with very limited protection of private property didn't allow new jobs to be created.  It was only natural that landowners and employers exploited the workers because workers were in abundance and desirable jobs were not.

    What really made the most difference for workers was the industrial revolution and explosion of the job market.  It was the ability of the common worker to simply find a new job.  That finally forced employers to start competing for labour resources and offering more attractive compensation.  America had similar growing pains, but perhaps not as many, precisely because it was quicker to give individuals the necessary freedoms.

    There's a valid argument to be made that unions also played some part in this as well.  Politically, however, this is almost the exact opposite of mandatory time-off.  Protecting the rights of individuals to form unions is part of democratic capitalism; it delivers a freedom, not a guarantee, and places no resource demands on anyone else.  Guaranteed vacation minimums was a socialist element that somehow got stapled onto the bill, and because people like vacation (duh), they also like to give it the most credit.

    And trust me, absolutely nobody here wants to get rid of those mandatory vacation days, not even the federation of employers.

     
    The fact that people don't want to get rid of them is kind of a red herring.  Of course people don't want to get rid of their vacation days.  However, I personally know a few Europeans (from Sweden, Italy, UK) who moved to the US or Canada and, after spending a few months here, agreed that it made a lot more sense not to mandate such a high amount (although of course they missed their long vacations).  And I don't know that many Europeans, so I'd have to assume they're a reasonably representative sample and that it's not just the law of averages at work.

    Not to mention that French citizens bitch about their crazy labour laws all the time.  I'm not sure if I've heard vacation days mentioned independently in the various tirades, but you can usually find a reference in there somewhere. 

    I'm starting to like the cut of this "Aaron" fellow's jib.  He comes in explains all the boring parts, leaving me free to mock people.  Stop by the IRC channel sometime... I might have some programming tasks you can complete for me.



  • @tster said:

    you're kind of a dumbass.  The constitution has successfuly defended people burning our own flag.  I don't think it's going to fail to protect people dancing in the street.  Here's the text:

    "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech..."

    Ah yeah, sure. So you mean this shouldn't be even happening, should it?

    Or the whole "flag in the street" thing in Atlanta...


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