What next? Flex or Ajax?



  • Background: 

    for the past 5 years I had worked in a small design company as a web developer-designer-bunch-o-stuffer..
    I was the only one writting code around, I mainly used PHP-MySql-Actionscript 2.0 and actually did some complex applications at some points, but the last few years I was doing online catalogs, and my job consisted on skinning a "catalog management system" I had developed, creating the Tables on MySql and configuring two or three files, and on a fun day, I could do a flash banner. 

    So it got to a point were all I did was reuse stuff I had already done. With very little time to learn new things besides polishing my PHP and MySql knowledege. 

    Present: 

    Now I'm at a new job, mid size Advertising Company, expanding it's "Digital Department", meaning that although there are a few designers that know html and basic Flash, they need to be able to offer more advanced stuff to their customers, so I got hired to be the "coder" around here.

    Although I'm more of a fan of elegant CSS simple Web 1.0 sites that works and looks nice, this company wants to go the "Flashy Way" and I also feel I need to learn new things, and in this new job I have the time and motivation to do it.  So it's time for me to upgrade my resume. 

    I have been thinking about AJAX and FLEX...

    Assuming that I will only have time and money to learn one of them... which do you think will be a better choice to learn right now? any other options?

     

     

     

     



  • I'm not sure what's to "learn" about AJAX. It's not a product, just a concept that should take about 30 minutes to fully understand. You can knock out a demo using any server side scripting language (which you already know) and a trivial amount of JavaScript in an hour or two. Now, if you aren't familiar with JavaScript, then that would be my choice for spending time on. Javascript libraries like scriptaculous  are very impressive and understanding how they work, how to use them and how to do these things yourself complements the server-side processing. AJAX itself is trivial though.

    That leaves Flex as the only real option. I'm not very impressed by the demo apps that Adobe links to on their product page, they all seem kinda sluggish and it looks like it's just more "crap" piled on top of flash. That may be useful though if you work with ActionScript anyways. 

    That's my two euro-cent. Since I try to stay far away from web development though, take anything I said with a good amount of salt :)

     

     

     



  •  

    So my choices are Javascript vs MXML+ActionScript 3.

    Let's assume that in a very near future my new job is willing to pay for a good course for me. 

    I have to choose one and only one course.. these are the options:

    - "Using Javascript for enhancing enterprisey web browser based applications"
    - "Learn Flex and make cooler websites than your competition"

    Which would be best to have in my resume?
    Which
    would help me be a better developer? (read as: clean up my general
    coding skills, knowledge portability to other future languages and
    technologies, etc...)
    Which would most likely be around in a few years?

    FWIW
    Most likely I'll get my hands dirty on both... I'm just trying to
    listen to opinions on where to put most of my inmediate available time.



  • @fatdog said:

    I have to choose one and only one course.. these are the options:

    - "Using Javascript for enhancing enterprisey web browser based applications"
    - "Learn Flex and make cooler websites than your competition"

    Javascript's more widely used, and subsequently more in demand. Further, who cares about Flex?



  •  @bstorer said:

    Javascript's more widely used, and subsequently more in demand. Further, who cares about Flex?

    flaming or ?

    Its apples and oranges:

    Flex is more of a framework, Javascript is just a programming language ..

    ActionScript vs. Javascript is a proper comparison.

    or

    Prototype + Scriptaculous + PutSomeAjaxFrameworkForYourFavouriteServersideScriptingLanguage vs. Flex

    Dojo vs. Flex

    etc.

    And I would choose Flex ... It has many builtin components, and there are plenty of free widgets online. It simply offers more bling for less work ...

    Additional plus for Flex - you can build desktop apps with it as well ....

     

     

     



  • @Nelle said:

    flaming or ?
     

    I don't think so. It was my reaction as well. 

    @Nelle said:

    Its apples and oranges:

    It's not a comparison at all, it's a question of knowledge of which is more useful. The original question was AJAX or FLEX, which has now become JavaScript or FLEX.

     



  • @Nandurius said:

    It's not a comparison at all, it's a question of knowledge of which is more useful.
     

    You mean like :

    PHP or STL ?

    Rails or Python ?

    C# or Debian ?




  • @Nelle said:

    Its apples and oranges:

    Flex is more of a framework, Javascript is just a programming language ..

    Not really. We're not comparing them in terms of, say, which is better to design a website. He asked which is better to learn from a job-seeker's point-of-view. The answer to that is clearly Javascript. It's not unlike asking, "I want to build web sites: which is better to learn, HTML or 18th Century British literature?" Sure, the latter is a much bigger subject than the former, but that's not what we're evaluating.



  • @bstorer said:

    Not really. We're not comparing them in terms of, say, which is better to design a website. He asked which is better to learn from a job-seeker's point-of-view.
     

    ok agreed

    @bstorer said:

    The answer to that is clearly Javascript.

    IMHO not...

    lets say you have someone applying at your firm and the resume says he knows Javascript ... ok nice ... they know how to use document.write ? or DOM ? or they can make nice rollovers with onmouseover ? open popups with window.open ? it all falls under the category of javascript ... and everybody knows javascript ... 12yearolds who sit down and build "yet another javascript clock" are quite proud of it and would say they know javascript ... people who use scriptaculous say they know javascript and they might have NO idea what they are doing (you can only copy paste examples and get cool results) ...  people who used lightbox write in their resumes that "they have used javascript extensively in the past" ...

    lets say an average JS programmer goes to a job interview and the company says : "oh I see you rated your javascript knowledge with 10. thats nice because we use dojo extensively in our current project." ... the javascript knowledge alone brings little when looking for a job ... and as someone already mentioned ajax can be picked up in a couple of hours ...

    therefore if i was hiring people, i would prefer someone who already spent some time (so i do not have to pay for this time) learning flex, even if he is not familiar with prototype or scriptaculous or dojo or insert whatever you are currently using  ...




  • @Nelle said:

    it all falls under the category of javascript ... and everybody knows javascript ... 12yearolds who sit down and build "yet another javascript clock" are quite proud of it and would say they know javascript

    And there are tons of people out there who say they know C++. That's why we have interviews: to weed out the guys who know how write a Hello World application from those who can actually make use of multiple inheritance. You can put whatever the hell you want on your resume (Hell, mine says I know LISP, and I haven't used it in probably 5 years); it's up to the interviewer to make sure you actually do.


    @Nelle said:
    therefore if i was hiring people, i would prefer someone who already spent some time (so i do not have to pay for this time) learning flex, even if he is not familiar with prototype or scriptaculous or dojo or insert whatever you are currently using  ...

    Only if your shop uses Flex, and most don't. If I'm hiring, I don't care whether a candidate knows anything about J2EE, because we don't use it.



  • @bstorer said:

    Only if your shop uses Flex, and most don't. If I'm hiring, I don't care whether a candidate knows anything about J2EE, because we don't use it.
     

    It should not be so specific.

    If your shop does Java, then J2EE could be a benefit. You never know
    if some project might require it. Of course if you do C++ then any Java (including J2EE)
    knowledge is totaly useless and I would not care if the candidate knew
    that. However if the candidate used boost that should be a positive thing even if the shop does not use it.

    For arguments sake lets say a shop does webapps in .NET and for the upcoming project they need a GUI programmer.  They would of course prefer someone who had experience with Atlas, but should equaly consider applicants with extensive knowledge in Flex. Simply because the applicant could, in the design phase, say for a certain module "I've already done something similar in Flex. It's really easy." and they could do that module in Flex. Any framework can be easily learned and considering it is a .NET shop, there are certainly enough people who can help the new guy pick it up.

    I'm just considering the entire shop as a knowledge repository. If it is already .NET shop, the amount of new knoledge added by the new employee is so small that it can be even ignored. You can't use this guy for anything else than to ease up the load on the existing workers. On the other hand if the shop has only some small or no Flex experience, then the shop knowledge increaese is significant. The new guy brings fresh ideas, new angles and new ways to solve some problems.

    Finally, if you use MVC or if you simply design your app properly, it is of small importance whether the GUI is flex, dhtml or java applet.

    Now the question is only whether the majority of bosses in webdevel companies shares your view or mine :)

    ps. I did a quick search for the  "Adobe Flex Developer" and "Javascript Developer" on some job search site (simplyhired - first poped up on gooogle) and there were 15 Flex and 20 Javascript job offers. Which is no significant difference considering that most Javascript jobs require knowledge of different frameworks (so it is really xx dojo jobs, xx pure javascript/dhtml, xx Ajax etc.) and all Flex jobs require you know only one thing - Flex :)



  • @Nelle said:

    If your shop does Java, then J2EE could be a benefit.

    No, then knowledge of Java (a pretty mandatory prerequisite for J2EE) would be a benefit. J2EE still wouldn't factor into the equation.


    @Nelle said:
    You never know if some project might require it.

    You base most of your argument on this. I'm not sure how things work at your office, but around here, projects don't just leap up out of the blue. We don't spin some big wheel with a bunch of different technologies on it to decide what platform to develop to.


    @Nelle said:
    Of course if you do C++ then any Java (including J2EE) knowledge is totaly useless and I would not care if the candidate knew that.

    Now we're getting somewhere.


    @Nelle said:
    However if the candidate used boost that should be a positive thing even if the shop does not use it.

    WHY? If we don't use it, why do I care that the candidate knows it? It's of no value to us. We don't look at resumes and go, "Oh, this fellow knows COBOL. We don't use COBOL, but that's a plus anyway!" If we use COBOL, then we'd expect people who know COBOL. If we decided to develop something in COBOL, we'd go out and get people who know COBOL. Sure, it's a bonus if someone on staff already knows it, but by that token we should consider it an advantage if an applicant knows how to maintain a 1968 Cadillac Coupe de Ville. What if we have to repair one someday?!


    @Nelle said:
    I'm just considering the entire shop as a knowledge repository. If it is already .NET shop, the amount of new knoledge added by the new employee is so small that it can be even ignored.

    That's the stupidest thing I've read yet today -- although it's still early, maybe you'll outdo this later. Now we should be ignoring a developer's .NET knowledge in a .NET shop? Companies don't hire because they keep their own fork of Wikipedia and need someone to fill in the pages on Animal Husbandry. Can you guess why they hire?@Nelle said:

    You can't use this guy for anything else than to ease up the load on the existing workers.

    Hooray! You figured it out! Maybe there's hope for you yet.


    @Nelle said:
    On the other hand if the shop has only some small or no Flex experience, then the shop knowledge increaese is significant. The new guy brings fresh ideas, new angles and new ways to solve some problems.

    Fuck. Seems I spoke too soon.

    You don't hire new guys to bring fresh ideas or angles. You hire them because you have more work than people. Some companies hire for other reasons: slipping release date, the applicant is the owner's nephew, unspent budget, etc. But fresh ideas really aren't one of them. I'm starting to wonder if you've ever worked as a software developer, let alone been part of the hiring process.


    @Nelle said:
    Finally, if you use MVC or if you simply design your app properly, it is of small importance whether the GUI is flex, dhtml or java applet.

    Except for the part where you have to code it. But I'm sure that's just a minor part of the process.


    @Nelle said:
    Now the question is only whether the majority of bosses in webdevel companies shares your view or mine :)

    This is a question you actually need to ask? Do you even know that the real world exists?


    @Nelle said:
    ps. I did a quick search for the  "Adobe Flex Developer" and "Javascript Developer" on some job search site (simplyhired - first poped up on gooogle) and there were 15 Flex and 20 Javascript job offers.

    Anyone responding to an ad for "Javascript Developer" deserves what they get. No worthwhile job has ever been billed as "Javascript developer". Try looking for ones that require, say, a minimum of 2 years of Javascript experience. Those will vastly outweigh the number for Flex.



  • @bstorer said:

    You don't hire new guys to bring fresh ideas or angles. You hire them because you have more work than people. Some companies hire for other reasons: slipping release date, the applicant is the owner's nephew, unspent budget, etc. But fresh ideas really aren't one of them.

     

    Oh, of course companies sometimes hire new guys to help them move to a new direction. Consider this not-so-uncommon scenario: The whole company is running on an obsolete development platform, say VB6. They know they must switch to a newer platform sooner or later, but of course they also have to maintain the cash cow, a VB6 program. So they can try to retrain their staff to VB.net (C#, Java, whatever), but chances are that this will be a difficult transition without the help of an experienced VB.net (resp. C#, Java) developer. Someone who really knows how to do that kind of stuff. So they hire an experienced VB.net (...) developer to lead the transition.



  • @ammoQ said:

    So they can try to retrain their staff

    Or they do like my employer. They expect us to learn in our personal time -- with the implied threat of something bad happening if we don't keep moving forward. But, at the same time, we are not allowed to create anything that hasn't already been paid for by a client. FREAKS



    By the way.. that's how it went at all 3 software shops I've worked for. Two of them were public with my current one being international. So this isn't a mom-and-pop deal I'm talking about.



  • @ammoQ said:

    So they hire an experienced VB.net (...) developer to lead the transition.

    But you aren't just bringing them in because you need fresh ideas. You don't hire a Ruby developer to work on your C++ app because he'll "shake things up" with his ideas about duck typing and closures. You hire a Ruby developer because you need to something done in Ruby. You do it because you have a plan that involves a new technology, and you need people schooled in said technology.



  • @Nelle said:

    C# or Debian ?
    WTFAYBBO?



  • @belgariontheking said:

    @Nelle said:

    C# or Debian ?
    WTFAYBBO?

     

    I tried to read through his post, but I got the distinct impression that it was made by one of those buzzword-gibberish-generators you can find all over the internet.



  • My two cents here. I would say that ajax is clunky and is much more limited than Flex. True, flex apps do seem a bit slow as well, but there's a huge amount of functionality that you're getting that you don't get with ajax. Ajax is not a component library, Flex is. There's all kinds of high end libraries for image processing, networking (ok the networking is fairly weak, but it's there), filters, etc. It's just a much more mature and well designed technology. Plus you don't have to deal with the soul-deadening cross browser issues. 



  • @bstorer said:

    @Nelle said:
    However if the candidate used boost that should be a positive thing even if the shop does not use it.

    WHY?

     

    WHY NOT ?

    it is not so far fetched that a c++ shop will use boost someday ...

    @bstorer said:

    Now we should be ignoring a developer's .NET knowledge in a .NET shop?

    Have I really wrote such an idiotic thing ?

    Sorry, what I really mean is this :

    There are two candidates applying for a position in a .NET shop :

    1. knows .NET, worked with Atlas, has 2 years exp. as "Javascript developer"

    2. knows .NET, worked with Flex

    Neither is the CEOs nephew.

    .NET exp/knowledge approx. same

    What you are saying is that the 2nd one should be automatically discarded. IMHO not.

    @bstorer said:

    You don't hire new guys to bring fresh ideas or angles.

    The companies are hiring, like you said, because they are shorthanded on
    projects, but it depends at which stage are these projects.

    If the project is still in the planning phase, you know that it will be .NET on Windows server etc, but whether you will use Atlas, Flex, Silverlight etc. is still open.

    Moreover, the company may decide to do a minor part of the project that is not so significant in flex, just to test technology and see how it fits with their system.  I have seen it happen a lot of times.

    @bstorer said:

    I'm starting to wonder if you've ever worked as a software developer, let alone been part of the hiring process.

    sorry I have to dissappoint you. yes.




  • just @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    @belgariontheking said:

    @Nelle said:

    C# or Debian ?
    WTFAYBBO?

     

    I tried to read through his post, but I got the distinct impression that it was made by one of those buzzword-gibberish-generators you can find all over the internet.

    Just wanted to say that you can't compare Javascript and Flex. Perhaps I've streched it too far.



  • @Nelle said:

    Perhaps I've streched it too far.
     

    Not sure 'stretching' is the problem.



  • @Nelle said:

    WHY NOT ?

    it is not so far fetched that a c++ shop will use boost someday ...

    Sure it is. If a company is an entrenched C++ shop, it probably already has general-purpose libraries in place. Why would they swap them out later? Besides, how many shops are actually using Boost anyway? I don't know of any myself.


    @Nelle said:
    Have I really wrote such an idiotic thing?

    'Fraid so.


    @Nelle said:
    What you are saying is that the 2nd one should be automatically discarded.

    No, it isn't at all what I'm saying. The .NET experience is what matters. I care very little about one's other knowledge. Sure, knowing another language or platform helps establish experience in the field and demonstrates an adaptability, but they mean fuck-all about .NET.


    @Nelle said:
    If the project is still in the planning phase, you know that it will be .NET on Windows server etc, but whether you will use Atlas, Flex, Silverlight etc. is still open.

    So what? Do you think I'm going to design my projects based upon the candidates? Fuck that, if it's my job to pick the system to use, I'm picking the best one for the job at hand, and then we can hire to meet it. It's one thing to be hiring the system architect, it's another to be hiring a coder.


    @Nelle said:
    Moreover, the company may decide to do a minor part of the project that is not so significant in flex, just to test technology and see how it fits with their system.  I have seen it happen a lot of times.

    Did I wander into some alternate dimension wherein debates are won by stating the biggest non sequitur? Because in that case, monkeys don't like cheese because it doesn't grow in the jungle.

    How the fuck is this a justification for picking Flex over Javacript?!? They could just as easily be doing it in Javascript. In fact, considering how wide-spread Javascript is, it's more likely they'll do it in Javascript.

    @Nelle said:
    sorry I have to dissappoint you. yes.

    May ammoQ have mercy on your company.



  • So... What should I do? AJAX, FLEX? 

    Now seriously, besides
    the job market aspects of my question and how cool my resume will
    look with some technology with an X in it's name.. 

    Skill-knowledege-make-me-a-better-coder-wise, which could be of more help?

    I know I can use either (or both) and just implement widgets, and libraries, etc, for years, without learning much.
    But
    I want to use this opportunity to go a step further and actually learn
    more and become a better coder. Otherwise I could just go around
    hacking stuff, and making them work "good enough" to collect a
    paycheck.

     



  • @fatdog said:

    Now seriously, besides
    the job market aspects of my question and how cool my resume will
    look with some technology with an X in it's name.. 
     

    Then do both. Flex is just a massive Flash-based framework on top of some client-server communication methods that boil down to "Ajax". Think of Flex as a ready-built "thingie", and Ajax as the screws holding it together. 

    If I were doing hiring, I'd be more interested in someone who knows the nuts and bolts of something, as well as the something itself, than someone who just knows the something. It's the difference between hiring Joe Anybody who's got a driver's license, and hiring Joe Mechanic, who's got his driver's license but can also fix the truck when it breaks down. 



  • @fatdog said:

    Skill-knowledege-make-me-a-better-coder-wise, which could be of more help?
     

     If I may invoke the tired-old php stereotype: anything is better than php. Of course, moving to JavaScript can hardly be considered a 'step up', as far as programming languages go. Both PHP and JavaScript applications seem to be developed at random, rarely using any obvious methodolgy, often times written by people without a good understanding of what's going on. The whole environment is really a breeding ground for WTFs.

    Out of curiosity, how do you currently develop? Are you using a debugger to track down problems? What kind of testing/verification are you doing? IMO neither JS nor PHP encourage either, with the code being interpreted either on the server or a web browser, and only rarely in a development environment (even there I'm not so sure.)

    I don't see FLEX doing anything to make you a better coder. (Keep in mind that I haven't used it myself, I'm just going by what I've seen looking at Adobe's site for a few minuted.) It seems to be a great tool to quickly throw together a gui-type thing in flash. I don't see Adobe being very interested in showing off the underlying technologies though, with them selling Flex as a product and all.

    Depending on how much of the underlying code you actually work with, you may pick up a lot of useful knowledge from the way that FLEX was written. Simply using it and connecting various pre-made components is probably only mildly interesting.

    If you are after improving coding skills, then the best choice for that might actually be a more 'traditional' environment, such as C# (with ASP?) or Java (with one of the various web frameworks.)

    When used right, I'm sure you can learn quite a bit developing javascript code as well, but it requires a lot more concentration to stay away from the typical problems and "shortcuts". 



  • @bstorer said:

    If a company is an entrenched C++ shop, it probably already has general-purpose libraries in place. Why would they swap them out later?
     

    outdated... no support... library developer just died... there are some things in boost not available in their g-p libs...their libs are slower/more complicated...

    @bstorer said:

    The .NET experience is what matters. I care very little about one's other knowledge.

    your loss.

    @bstorer said:

    Do you think I'm going to design my projects based upon the candidates?

    no

    @bstorer said:

    Fuck that, if it's my job to pick the system to use, I'm picking the best one for the job at hand, and then we can hire to meet it.
     

    what pink world are you living in ? do you really believe that with one tool only you can solve all problems in one project or that you can pick the best tool for the job ? true if your project is a 12 pages site for a local dentist. sorry but that sounds a bit too arogant.

    on the interview:

    you: "so lets say you have
    to implement something like this blah blah... it has the following
    functionality blah blah... how would you proceeed? what would be your estimate?"

    #1 : "5 mdays"

    #2 : "3 mdays"

    you (at #2): "hmm that sounds impossible"

    #2: "well there is a flex component that i can use to ..." 

    you (yelling) : "Fuck that, if it's my job to pick the system to use, I'm picking the best one for the job at hand. i don't care if you know flex. i already chose javascript as the best tool for the job. fuck off. aaaargh." (machine-gun fire)

    i'm not saying php, ruby and python should be mixed in one project. but i see no obstacle in doing some modules in js, others in flex and maybe even leaving one module in the project to test something that i haven't used before. 

    @bstorer said:

    How the fuck is this a justification for picking Flex over Javacript?!?

    that was wayy off topic. back on-topic flex vs js: 

    - flex has built-in components that are in many ways better than some custom component you may develop in js. example: make something in js similar to the gridview component in flex. it is not impossible, but it can be done faster in flex.

    - so far everything i developed in js had to be tested in several browsers to make sure it is compatible with them: IE 6/7, Safari on Mac, Firefox, Opera etc. flex apps are 100% cross-browser compatible, look the same, behave nicely on all browsers. 

    - it is supported by adobe. they already poured milions in it, they are not going to let it die. updates, help, knowledgebase etc.

    - it is possible to write desktop apps with flex 

    i'm not saying flex is gods given solution to all gui problems, but from personal experience a lot of things are done faster and easier in flex and require less testing because of the cross browser compatibility.

    and no, i'm not an adobe fanboy. i just happen to use both technologies evry day.



  • @fatdog said:

    Skill-knowledege-make-me-a-better-coder-wise, which could be of more help?
     

    @fatdog said:

    But
    I want to use this opportunity to go a step further and actually learn
    more and become a better coder. Otherwise I could just go around
    hacking stuff, and making them work "good enough" to collect a
    paycheck.

     Flex.



  • @Nelle said:

    TL;DNR
    Waiting for an intelligent person to respond.  cue pstorer.



  • @Nelle said:

    outdated... no support... library developer just died... there are some things in boost not available in their g-p libs...their libs are slower/more complicated...

    Nelle, that sound you hear is the bottom of the barrel being scratched repeatedly. Those things just don't happen that often, especially when you're working with an existing code base.


    @Nelle said:

    @bstorer said:

    The .NET experience is what matters. I care very little about one's other knowledge.

    your loss.

    Not if I'm hiring them to develop in .NET. You're welcome to hire all the animal husbandry experts your heart desires, but I know people who can do what I hire them to do. Is this a complex concept? Am I being too obtuse? Help me out here, I don't understand why you can't wrap your head around such a simple rule of business.


    @Nelle said:
    what pink world are you living in ?

    I'm not even sure what this means. Is this supposed to be sexual? Are you calling me a commie pinko?


    @Nelle said:
    do you really believe that with one tool only you can solve all problems in one project

    Depends how you define "tool." If you mean a single piece of technology, such as MySQL, then no. If you mean an entire stack, like LAMP, then yes.


    @Nelle said:
    or that you can pick the best tool for the job ? true if your project is a 12 pages site for a local dentist. sorry but that sounds a bit too arogant.

    It's what they pay me to do. If my employers determine that I can't, they'll likely reassign me. But that hasn't happened yet, so yes, I do think that. Do you think picking a development stack is challenging? There's a lot of research to do, but it's not rocket science.


    @Nelle said:

    you: "so lets say you have
    to implement something like this blah blah... it has the following
    functionality blah blah... how would you proceeed? what would be your estimate?"

    #1 : "5 mdays"

    #2 : "3 mdays"

    you (at #2): "hmm that sounds impossible"

    #2: "well there is a flex component that i can use to ..." 

    you (yelling) : "Fuck that, if it's my job to pick the system to use, I'm picking the best one for the job at hand. i don't care if you know flex. i already chose javascript as the best tool for the job. fuck off. aaaargh." (machine-gun fire)

    This is a lovely play. I enjoy any point made in play form, as evidenced by my posting history. But let's highlight the problem by taking this discussion into a conference room with a group of C# developers:


    Me: So we need this system to do X, Y, and Z. How long do we think it'll take to implement?

    #1: Well, in C#, I can do X in 3 days, Y in 5, and Z in 1, so 9 days.

    #2: Well, in Ruby, I can do X in 2 days, Y in 4, and Z in 4, so 10 days. Of course, I could also do the whole thing in C# in 9 days, too.

    #3: Well, in Flex, I can do X in 1 day, Y in 8, and Z in 2, so 11 days. Of course, I could also do the whole thing in C# in 9 days, too.

    Me: So that means we can do X in 1 day in Flex, Y in 4 days in Ruby, and Z in 1 day in C#, so we'll be done in 6 days!

    6 days later

    Frankestein's monster we have created: RAAAA!!! GOOD LUCK MAINTAINING ME, FUCKERS! NOW YOU NEED DEVELOPERS WITH THREE SKILLSETS!

    Me: Oh, no! That didn't turn out well at all! Thanks for your useless fucking advice, Nelle!

    @Nelle said:

    i'm not saying flex is gods given solution to all gui problems, but from personal experience a lot of things are done faster and easier in flex and require less testing because of the cross browser compatibility.

    and no, i'm not an adobe fanboy. i just happen to use both technologies evry day.

    Here's a fact: I often develop in Ruby here. I do it because it's faster than developing in C#, or Java, or COBOL. But I don't think that does me any good if I were to leave here. Do you know why? Because other than a small RoR market, Ruby's really not in demand. Same with Flex. It may be the mother fucking bee's knees, but nobody uses it, so it's not a good career decision. Now, if you can provide evidence that it will be an in-demand career somewhere down the road, that's a different story. But thus far, it's just not viable.



  • @bstorer said:

    Now, if you can provide evidence that it will be an in-demand career somewhere down the road, that's a different story. But thus far, it's just not viable.

    In defense of Flex, the OP did mention that

    1. He's working for a digital media / advertising company
    2. They need him to do online flash stuff

    In light of that, it may very well come down to "build this site according to the designers specs in flash", and he'll either have to mess with his own widgets, buttons, tools and create a home-grown mess of components that may be losely shared between projects, or he can use flash components, which will come in handy especially when the client/designer wants a whole site done in flash. Yes, it's awful, but he's being hired for his technical knowledge not to design work. So he may as well use the least painful tool.

    How useful/interesting that is, and how much of that is actually transferable is another matter. If you're happy with flash as a long-term platform, figure out Flex. If you want to broaden your horizon, I'd look elsewhere for inspiration (JS, C#, Java etc.) If time permits, do both.. Flex to make flash less painful, "X" to enhance your skill set.



  • @bstorer said:

    I often develop in Ruby here. I do it because it's faster than developing in C#, or Java, or COBOL
    That's all well and good but why not go with something elegant like CF?  Or an easy bake oven?



  • @bstorer said:

    I'm not even sure what this means. Is this supposed to be sexual? Are you calling me a commie pinko?
     

    sorry, lost in translation. i'm not a native speaker. 

    but i've heard something like "looking at the world through pink coloured glasses" in English as well ?

    @Nelle said:

    @bstorer said:
    6 days later
    Frankestein's monster we have created: RAAAA!!! GOOD LUCK MAINTAINING ME, FUCKERS! NOW YOU NEED DEVELOPERS WITH THREE SKILLSETS!

    Me: Oh, no! That didn't turn out well at all! Thanks for your useless fucking advice, Nelle!

    Well I did say in a previous post:

    @Nelle said:

    i'm not saying php, ruby and python should be mixed in one project.

    And besides Flex is not a serverside thing. You can not mix it like that. 

    so your conference room example boils down to either

    ruby + Ajax & Flex

    or

    C# + Ajax & Flex 

    But I have to admit that you have a point there. If you use both DHTML/AJAX and Flex in one project, then you really do need developers with more than one skillset.

    However I don't think it is a big problem. In my company there are already 4 developers (including me) with both Flex and DHTML/JS/Ajax knowledge and I do not believe we are the only ones in the world.

     



  • @Nelle said:

    but i've heard something like "looking at the world through pink coloured glasses" in English as well ?
     

     ROSE colored glassed.

    @Nelle said:

    there are already 4 website designers (including me) with both Flex and DHTML/JS/Ajax knowledge

    FTFY.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

     ROSE colored glassed.
     

    thx

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    @Nelle said:

    there are already 4 website designers (including me) with both Flex and DHTML/JS/Ajax knowledge

    FTFY.

    not really. we're all developers programming in CF or .NET. Flex is just an extra thing.

    our designers work with photoshop.

     



  • @Nelle said:

    we're all developers programming in CF.
    How elegant.



  • @Nelle said:

    not really. we're all developers programming in CF or .NET. Flex is just an extra thing.

    Suddenly it's all so clear!



  •  @bstorer said:

    Suddenly it's all so clear!

    ?? 



  • @Nelle said:

     @bstorer said:

    Suddenly it's all so clear!

    ?? 

     

    Let me clue you in: Hi Russ!



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Let me clue you in: Hi Russ!
     

    c'mon, there are idiots working with every language/framework out there ... if it weren't so, this site would not exist ...

     



  • @Nelle said:

     @bstorer said:

    Suddenly it's all so clear!

    ?? 

    !!



  • @Nelle said:

    c'mon, there are idiots working with every language/framework out there ... if it weren't so, this site would not exist ...
     

    The difference is that I don't see many idiots coming around spamming our forum with the wonders of PHP or .NET.

    Those language/frameworks speak for themselves. Apparently CF/Flex need people to spam forums to double their user numbers.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Those language/frameworks speak for themselves. Apparently CF/Flex need people to spam forums to double their user numbers.
     

    They don't speak for themselves.  People complain but on these forums everyone has a stroke if you insult VB, even though its the worst language in history.

    CF is an embarrasment too, don't lump it in with flex which is fairly interesting, and is not just a language or a web middleware. they are not related.



  • @chebrock said:

    They don't speak for themselves.  People complain
     

    You obviously didn't comprehend what I wrote. I was arguing against the blind spamming of CF and flex, despite any intelligent argument. You seem to be arguing that every language has bad developers and WTFs. Not sure where you got that from.

    As for your insulting of VB, the reason trolls like you who make uninformed statements about VB[.NET] and get flamed is that many people here make their living off writing good, quality VB code. 

     

    The argument is that Nelle is blatantly spamming pro-%language% and not listening to the well reasoned argument being made against him.



  • @chebrock said:

    People complain but on these forums everyone has a stroke if you insult VB, even though its the worst language in history.

    Congratulations on discrediting yourself yet again. It makes our jobs that much easier.



  • @bstorer said:

    Congratulations on discrediting yourself yet again. It makes our jobs that much easier.
     

    The delicious irony of someone who considers utf-8 obscure calling VB a bad language...

    The language doesn't make bad code, bad programmers make bad code.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    The language doesn't make bad code, bad programmers like chebrock make bad code.
    FTFY



  • So... are you guys saying I should go learn FLEX?



  • @fatdog said:

    So... are you guys saying I should go learn FLEX?

     

    Sure. It is not the 'worst language ever' so it must be ok.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Sure. It is not the 'worst language ever' so it must be ok.

     

    Ja, well that was not a serious question, it was a (not so good) attempt of doing some comedy on my part.

    Anyway
    I have been snooping around with Flex builder trial, the adobe site,
    documentation, examples.. and well to be honest I'm not impressed of
    what I've seen around.
    I'm not impressed with most of the AJAX I've seen around either.. 

    I mean I can see some of uses for both technologies, but I found that a lot of the Flex or Ajax stuff I
    see around are completely unnecessary. For example, I know a drag n
    drop shopping cart it's pretty cool, but budgetwise most of my clients
    will be ok with a simple ADD TO CART button.

    I also dislike the abuse of the ajax preloaders, which seems being delayed on purpose just to say "look I'm a cool web 2.0 site".

    I also found that flex apps or widgets are kind of slower and heavier to load than similar Javascript based ones, and in these parts of the world most people don't get more than lousy
    crappy nominal 1024 ADSL.

    I fear that Flex and Ajax will start (or already did?) a new wave of "flashy" sites, like in the 90's when every client I had wanted me to build their entire site in flash, with intro and music and "you know... make it very cool, very modern"... 

    I think I'm going to go indepth first with the javascript way, and take it slow with ActionScript 3 and Flex.

    But now I'm tempted to just grab widgets and hack them when I need them...
    and spend my free time reading funny troll's posts on the internet
    instead of learning.



  • @fatdog said:

    I mean I can see some of uses for both technologies, but I found that a lot of the Flex or Ajax stuff I see around are completely unnecessary.

    Welcome to Web 2.0! It's like Web 1.0, but flashier!


Log in to reply
 

Looks like your connection to What the Daily WTF? was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.