The wrong thing to say



  • Some time back, I worked for a large company (now defunct). It was your basic IT department of about 150 people organized into groups of ~10, all on a big open cubicle farm on one floor. Every barrel has it's bad apple. Ours would routinely view kiddie porn - during work hours. He would occasionally leave the images up on the screen when he walked away.

    Finally, someone got offended enough to say something to HR. HR had "the talk" with him. A few weeks later, he did it again. The same person was offended, again, and complained to HR, again. The same person from HR had "the next talk" with him. A few weeks later he did it yet again. The same person made a much more formal complaint to HR. The head of HR told his #1 to sit down with everyone in IT, 5 at a time, with their immediate boss and their boss, and lay down the law.

    Personally, I think they were excessively tolerant to this point.

    Ok, so it's time for me and 4 of my peers, and 2 levels of management to go sit in a conference room and get yelled at. And yell she (HR #1) did. For 45 continuous minutes. "You people have no morals. You people don't obey the rules. You people..." I had zoned out, but had finally had it, and fired back: "WE aren't the ones doing it! You are preaching to the choir. You know who did it - just fire him!" She fired back "But you people are downloading an unhealthy amount of kiddie porn..."

    I knew what she meant, but before I could think, I fired back, on auto-pilot: "So what does the company consider a healthy amount of kiddie porn?" I knew it was wrong as I started saying it, but it was like watching a train wreck as it happens - you just can't stop.

    Both of my bosses just slapped their hands on their faces.

    The HR #1 was tongue-tied.

    Later that day, I got, shall we say, "talked to" by both bosses, about the intricacies of knowing when to keep my mouth shut, but off the record they thought it was the best line ever.



  • A healthy amount of kiddie porn is like, two pictures of 16-17 year olds, or one picture of 13-15 year olds per day. I'm sure MPS has a table worked up.



  • @bstorer said:

    I'm sure MPS has a table worked up.
     

    Tables are for noobs. I am all about the database.

     

     

    Wait.. What?



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Tables are for noobs. I am all about the database.

    Liar! You e-mailed it to me. It was an Excel spreadsheet.



    Not like I followed it or anything..



  • @AbbydonKrafts said:

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:
    Tables are for noobs. I am all about the database.

    Liar! You e-mailed it to me. It was an Excel spreadsheet.



    Not like I followed it or anything..

     

    It was an export.... and it has nothing to do with furries, so you can't use it for anything anyway.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    It was an export....

    Oh.. well, then.

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    it has nothing to do with furries, so you can't use it for anything anyway.

    But I can pretend they're real, can't I?



  • @snoofle said:

    people..." I had zoned out, but had finally had it, and fired back: "WE aren't the ones doing it! You are preaching to the choir. You know who did it - just fire him!" She fired back "But you people are downloading an unhealthy amount of kiddie porn..."

    I knew what she meant, but before I could think, I fired back

    I'm not sure I know what she meant, unless by "you people" she meant "that guy, so we're going to punish everybody" which still evades your point.  Typical brainless HR android?



  • @snoofle said:

    "WE aren't the ones doing it! You are preaching to the choir. You know who did it - just fire him!"

    Just fire him? Shouldn't they also be notifying the police?



  •  @SuperousOxide said:

    @snoofle said:
    "WE aren't the ones doing it! You are preaching to the choir. You know who did it - just fire him!"

    Just fire him? Shouldn't they also be notifying the police?

    And admit that they'd been turning a blind eye to employees surfing child porn? More people would go to jail than just the employee.

    You don't want to get involved in this kind of crap. Unfortunately, the laws of the land make it nearly impossible to safely report child porn without getting in trouble yourself. So most of it goes unreported. 



  • I don't believe it.

     



  • @Rootbeer said:

    I don't believe it.

     

    Thanks for that. 

    Maybe you meant: "Pics! Or it didnt happen!"?



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    @bstorer said:

    I'm sure MPS has a table worked up.
     

    Tables are for noobs. I am all about the database.

     

     

    I thought we were supposed to use CSS to replace tables ...



  •  Downloading kiddie porn is a crime. The first thought should not be to call HR, but the police. Then you can let the police tell HR. (If you are worried about what that might do to the reputation of the company, imagine what we think of your company now.)

    If a co-worker knifed somebody, would you tell HR? Geez... 



  • @R.Flowers said:

    If a co-worker knifed somebody, would you tell HR? Geez... 
     

    Depends on my opinion of the person who is laying on the carpet bleeding... I might just tell the janitor.



  • @R.Flowers said:

    If a co-worker knifed somebody, would you tell HR? Geez...

    Looking at kiddie porn is the same as knifing someone these days? My, how priorities change...

    Just to clarify, my point is that these aren't comparable crimes.



  • You're not from around here, are you?



  • @fbjon said:

    my point is that these aren't comparable crimes.

    Fun fact: They're both IlLegal.



  • @Lingerance said:

    @fbjon said:
    my point is that these aren't comparable crimes.

    Fun fact: They're both IlLegal.
     

    Think that might be why he called them 'crimes'?



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Think that might be why he called them 'crimes'?

    If someone stabbed someone else would you report it?

    If someone stole a wallet would you report it?

    If someone ran over another person would you report it?

    You are at the very least morally (and frequently legally) obligated to report crimes you are witness to and if possible help out the victim. It doesn't matter how severe the crime is, it's still illegal and should have been reported.



  • @Lingerance said:

    It doesn't matter how severe the crime is, it's still illegal and should have been reported.

    Perhaps, but your argument above was that it was illegal. Which the person you were quoting clearly was aware of.

    That was NOT his argument. I despise pedophiles as much as the next guy, but I do agree with him that crimes are not of equivalent rank/importance.

     

    Just because you are shocked by how awful pedophilia is (who isn't) doesn't mean you should blindy defend against an argument that wasn't made.



  • @MasterAsshat said:

    Filed under: Fun Fact: Speeding is illegal too and it is not as serious as murder

    Really???  I guess I shouldn't have murdered that cop who was trying to write me a speeding ticket then...  Damn. 



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    I do agree with him that crimes are not of equivalent rank/importance.
    A more apt analogy would have been. . . ?



  • @Lingerance said:

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:
    I do agree with him that crimes are not of equivalent rank/importance.
    A more apt analogy would have been. . . ?
     

    Someone viewing child porn on a computer is not posing any immediate threat to another person['s life].

    Stabbing someone would be.

     

    Remind me again how they are the same?



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Remind me again how they are the same?
    They aren't, we are all aware of that, however you have yet to respond with a more suitable analogy.



  • @Lingerance said:

    you have yet to respond with a more suitable analogy.
     

    I don't feel the need to. I have made my point, and you have not.



  • @snoofle said:

    I fired back, on auto-pilot: "So what does the company consider a healthy amount of kiddie porn?"
     

    I know it's already been said, but that line is fucking hilarious.

    Brilliant, in the non-Paula way.



  • I can understand the corporate aversion to getting the police involved, at all levels.

    But I can't imagine that there's an HR department anywhere in the civilized world, no matter how incompetent, that would not terminate an employee immediately upon catching them viewing child pornography.  The risk to the company's reputation and general well-being is far too great to consider looking the other way.

     



  • The situation will yield itself when the FBI finds out that the child pornography is being viewed from their ip.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    I don't feel the need to. I have made my point, and you have not.
    Really? The point of the argument was that the statement "Would you have reported it if it was a knifing?" was somehow fallacious because knifing (assault) is not as sever as possession of child porn. My argument was that the knifing argument was quite on the mark and as you have refused to provide evidence otherwise, my argument is valid.



  • @Lingerance said:

    If someone stabbed someone else would you report it?

    If someone stole a wallet would you report it?

    If someone ran over another person would you report it?

    If someone downloaded pirated movies would you report it?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Tatiano said:

    If someone downloaded pirated movies would you report it?
    To the BOFH so he could inject kiddie porn into the movies.



  • @snoofle said:

    Ours would routinely view kiddie porn - during work hours. He would occasionally leave the images up on the screen when he walked away.
     

    WTF#1

    @snoofle said:

    Finally, someone got offended enough to say something to HR.

    WTF#2 - "Finally?" How much kiddie porn do you have to see before you get offended?

    @snoofle said:

    HR had "the talk" with him. A few weeks later, he did it again.

    WTF#3 - HR not firing him immediately. Under my employment contract (which is pretty standard), there are at least three different ways I could be fired immediately for looking at kiddie porn - breaching the policy about viewing porn at work, engaging in sexual harrassment (which includes displaying sexually graphic material), or engaging in criminal activity.

    WTF#4 - No-one calling the Police for something that was clearly not an accident or a one-off incident.

    @snoofle said:

    The same person was offended, again, and complained to HR, again. ... A few weeks later he did it yet again. The same person made a much more formal complaint to HR.

    WTF#5 - Only one person who was offended by kiddie porn, or only one person who was willing to say anything about it.

    WTF#6 - Not calling the police when this is not just a pattern of behaviour but a [i]documented[/i] pattern of behaviour.

    @snoofle said:

    The head of HR told his #1 to sit down with everyone in IT, 5 at a time, with their immediate boss and their boss, and lay down the law.

    WTF#6 - Telling all the people who aren't looking at kiddie porn how bad they are to do it. (I'm assuming that "laying down the law" is "stop looking at kiddie porn" not "don't let people who look at kiddie porn get away with it", which would be a bigger WTF.)

    WTF#7 - Not firing the guy after three warnings.

    WTF#8 - Still not calling the Police.

    @snoofle said:

    And yell she (HR #1) did. For 45 continuous minutes. "You people have no morals. You people don't obey the rules. You people..." I had zoned out, but had finally had it, and fired back: "WE aren't the ones doing it! You are preaching to the choir. You know who did it - just fire him!"

    WTF#9 - HR yelling at people. They're supposed to be a bit more professional about that.

    WTF#10 - Good response, but you're far more patient than I am, I'd be asking the question long before then. And if it goes on... hmmm, isn't publicly accusing someone of looking at kiddie porn, without any evidence, grounds for slander?

    @snoofle said:

    Later that day, I got, shall we say, "talked to" by both bosses, about the intricacies of knowing when to keep my mouth shut, but off the record they thought it was the best line ever.

    WTF#11 - A department full of managers that are (a) too gutless to report or act on a known problem employee, (b) too gutless to talk to HR about how ridiculous their plan of action is, (c) sufficiently gutless that they have to confront [i]you[/i] for your "inappropriate" behaviour.

    @snoofle said:

    large company (now defunct)

    With a WTF per paragraph rating above 1, I'm not in the least surprised.

     



  • WTF #12: Vista.



    Wait, what were we talking about?



  • @Tatiano said:

    If someone downloaded pirated movies would you report it?
    If they had no intention of buying it, yes.



  • @Lingerance said:

    @Tatiano said:
    If someone downloaded pirated movies would you report it?
    If they had no intention of buying it, yes.
     

    So kiddie porn's cool as long as you intend to delete it and don't show it to anyone else?



  • @sootzoo said:

    So kiddie porn's cool as long as you intend to delete it and don't show it to anyone else?

    I fail to see how that relates, trying something before buying it (especially when buying it can often be annoying difficult) is quite different from possessing child porn. The former stems from my lack of interest in actually watching TV (I want to watch my shows when I want to watch them, not when someone else decides it's a good time for that show to air), the other stems from a psychological problem. Furthermore your example differs from that fact as generally people who pirate will hoard and share their collection rather than delete it.



  • @bstorer said:

    A healthy amount of kiddie porn is like, two pictures of 16-17 year olds, or one picture of 13-15 year olds per day. I'm sure MPS has a table worked up.
     

    [img]http://www.zweg.com/dump/photo/stop.jpg[/img] 



  • @SuperousOxide said:

    Just fire him? Shouldn't they also be notifying the police?
     

    I don't know the legal situation in your country, but here in Austria there are specific requirements for pics etc. to qualify as child pornography. So it's possible that someone downloads pictures that are certainly not acceptable for the company, but not explicit enough to constitute a crime.



  • @Tuuli Mustasydan said:

    @bstorer said:

    A healthy amount of kiddie porn is like, two pictures of 16-17 year olds, or one picture of 13-15 year olds per day. I'm sure MPS has a table worked up.
     

    <snip picture of cameltoe>

    Tuuli, I'm going to just skip asking why you posted that horrendous picture and just give you the sticker.



  • @belgariontheking said:

    <snip picture of cameltoe>
     

    Cameltoe?  What cameltoe?  Seems like maybe you're the one who needs a stcker.  Or maybe you're just such a pervert that you completely missed the giant STOP sign that takes up most of the picture.

     



  • @Tuuli Mustasydan said:

    Cameltoe?  What cameltoe?

    Cameltoe



  • @Tuuli Mustasydan said:

    Cameltoe?  What cameltoe?  Seems like maybe you're the one who needs a stcker.  Or maybe you're just such a pervert that you completely missed the giant STOP sign that takes up most of the picture.
    Do you not understand how that was 100% not the point?  Why do you need to post a big huge picture just to say stop.  Why can't you just say "stop?"  And why should we listen to you when you say it? 



  • @belgariontheking said:

    Tuuli, I'm going to just skip asking why you posted that horrendous picture and just give you the sticker.

    That is the greatest thing ever.  God bless you, BTK. 



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    @belgariontheking said:

    Tuuli, I'm going to just skip asking why you posted that horrendous picture and just give you the sticker.

    That is the greatest thing ever.  God bless you, BTK. 

    I look forward to the day, not too far in the future, where we can have entire conversations on this forum using only various Zazzle products.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Someone viewing child porn on a computer is not posing any immediate threat to another person['s life].

    Stabbing someone would be.

    Remind me again how they are the same?

     

    Isn't that childs life in danger because of the people that have a need to watch

    such crap?

     



  • @oipoistar said:

    childs life in danger because of the people that have a need to watch

    such crap?

     

    At least it's a fair assumption that demand causes supply, so children get abused to create the stuff those sickos watch. 



  • @Weng said:

    @Tatiano said:
    If someone downloaded pirated movies would you report it?
    To the BOFH so he could inject kiddie porn into the movies.

     IT Crowd, Anti piracy ad

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d82Lq2rVB_4

     

     



  • @ammoQ said:

    @oipoistar said:

    childs life in danger because of the people that have a need to watch

    such crap?

     

    At least it's a fair assumption that demand causes supply, so children get abused to create the stuff those sickos watch. 

     

    The original argument is that stabbing someone is as serious a crime (to report and defend against) as a stabbing/murder.

    Kiddie porn is awful as we all know, it affects children in bad ways. But it is not a direct 1:1 relationship. If you watch a piece of kiddie porn, you are not taking/risking taking a life. 

    If you stab someone, you definitely are.

    They are certainly not in the same class of crimes. 

    That isn't to say that I don't think the punishment for pedophilia should be worse, but they are simply not the same. Lingerance just couldn't get his head around this, and now I am being quoted out of context to further that mistaken stance.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    That isn't to say that I don't think the punishment for pedophilia should be worse, but they are simply not the same.

    Actually the punishment for possession of child porn is worse than stabbing, unless the victim happens to die within a year of the stabbing IIRC. Also both are considered to be serious crimes with punishments that last longer than a decade in most cases.
    @MasterPlanSoftware said:
    now I am being quoted out of context to further that mistaken stance.

    I presume you're talking about my signature. If you'd like I'll remove it, I just found it humorous as you haven't used that handle in a long time and so the bot remembered "you" last when someone impersonated you a day prior. I would've done the same thing were it someone else who I used the seen command on.



  • @Lingerance said:

    Actually the punishment for possession of child porn is worse than stabbing, unless the victim happens to die within a year of the stabbing IIRC. Also both are considered to be serious crimes with punishments that last longer than a decade in most cases.
     

    YOU STILL HAVE NOT WRAPPED YOUR HEAD AROUND THE ARGUMENT I AM MAKING.

    Jesus, you really cannot read or something in this thread.

    @Lingerance said:

    I presume you're talking about my signature.

    No, not at all, I couldn't care any less about that. But once again, your failure to read anything but the last post in the thread has made you miss the point of my argument.

     


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