Stupid Secretary WTF



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    Writing "See ID" is not valid and requesting photo ID is pretty useless because any crook will just refuse to provide it.  I suppose you can catch the dumber ones that way or possibly scare them enough they slip up, but it's not that useful to make it optional because anyone who provides ID is legit so you're only asking the honest people to do more work.
     

    There is no advantage to signing the card. Yes the merchant agreement requires this, but this is not law. 

    As for someone who refuses to show ID for a card, you may not refuse them service based on that, but I never had to. I never had a single one try and finish the transaction. If they did insist on completing the transaction, any reasonable suspicion is cause to report them to security/police. The police can verify way more than you can. Is it possible you might hassle a customer? Sure. But it is the right thing to do. There is no reason why someone using their own credit card should feel violated or anything else and not provide ID when using their card. So I would say the odds are in your favor.

    It IS illegal however to write down any info from that ID... just as an FYI.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    There is no advantage to signing the card. Yes the merchant agreement requires this, but this is not law.

    True, I suppose you could just refuse to complete the transaction if the merchant required a signature on the card.  That has to odd effect of punishing the merchants who attempt to follow the rules, though. My signature is just a scribble anyway and is easily forged (assuming anyone even tried to verify it, which never happens) so I don't worry too much about keeping it a secret.  Without the card itself, my signature isn't worth much and I don't let that out of my sight.

     

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    If they did insist on completing the transaction, any reasonable suspicion is cause to report them to security/police.

    Store security can't do squat, though.  Anytime they try to stop me and ask for a receipt I just say "sorry, I'm in a hurry" and go on my way.  Police might intervene but I bet just as many would tell you to take it up with the credit card company.  Besides, if I was trying to commit fraud I'd be gone for the police would even get near the store.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    That has to odd effect of punishing the merchants who attempt to follow the rules, though.
     

    They are not my rules, and I do not agree with them. They fly in the face of common sense. If a vendor does not want to understand that, I have no plan on doing business with them.

    @morbiuswilters said:

    My signature is just a scribble anyway and is easily forged

    I agree, and so is mine. But I expect them to ask for ID if my card says See ID. Not everyone does, but at least it is (slightly) increasing the odds. Again, I cannot identify any advantage to signing the card.

    @morbiuswilters said:

    Store security can't do squat, though.

    They can detain you for the police, and record your license plate and have you pulled over if there is a reason.

    @morbiuswilters said:

    Besides, if I was trying to commit fraud I'd be gone for the police would even get near the store.

    As long as you as a merchant did your due diligence, and everything in your power was done to prevent the fraud (the police report is a great record) then you are in good shape. If you don't you can be accused of conspiracy to commit fraud, or at least simply not paid.

     



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    They are not my rules, and I do not agree with them. They fly in the face of common sense. If a vendor does not want to understand that, I have no plan on doing business with them.

    True, but I meant more the unintended side effect of rewarding the merchants who don't even follow the rules.  I'm sure some of the merchants are smarter and are requesting ID but most are probably just too ineffectual to even verify the signature.  My experience has almost uniformly been the latter so it seems odd to reward that sort of behavior, sort of a greater of two evils kind of thing.

     

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Again, I cannot identify any advantage to signing the card.

    There really isn't any for the consumer.  I don't really care either way, but it's actually got me thinking that maybe I should wipe my signature off of my cards..

     

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    They can detain you for the police, and record your license plate and have you pulled over if there is a reason.

    Bah, they can't arrest you and if they try to detain you just threaten to sue.  Most of the larger retailers have store policies that forbid their security people from even trying to stop a thief or following them out of the store. 

     

     



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    True, but I meant more the unintended side effect of rewarding the merchants who don't even follow the rules. 
     

    If I have SEE ID on my card, and someone doesn't check my ID I will often (to the embarassment of any company present of course) ask them how they know that is my card. I have nothing to hide after all, and a lot of people are just embarrassed enough or annoyed enough where they might check next time.

    @morbiuswilters said:

    Bah, they can't arrest you and if they try to detain you just threaten to sue.  Most of the larger retailers have store policies that forbid their security people from even trying to stop a thief or following them out of the store. 

    If you DID do something wrong and you flee the scene, it can heighten your charges. Also, the security team will usually just call the police with your description and license plate number. The cops have every right to check you out, specifically if the store has reason to believe (witness or video) that you may have committed a crime.

    Thinking you are a tough guy fighting the system when someone just wants to check your receipt is kind of dumb if you ask me. Although I agree it should only be used if there is suspicion, not on every customer.

     



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    If I have SEE ID on my card, and someone doesn't check my ID I will often (to the embarassment of any company present of course) ask them how they know that is my card. I have nothing to hide after all, and a lot of people are just embarrassed enough or annoyed enough where they might check next time.

    That would make sense, then.

     

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Thinking you are a tough guy fighting the system when someone just wants to check your receipt is kind of dumb if you ask me. Although I agree it should only be used if there is suspicion, not on every customer.

    I don't think I'm a tough guy "fighting the system" but I don't have time for high-school dropout rent-a-cops who hassle me for no reason.  Everytime I've ignored them, told them I was in a hurry or even told them to fuck off and call the cops if they think I did something illegal, they were just conducting random searches and I'll be damned if I go along with that.  I am all for being co-operative with the police assuming they aren't trying to violate my basic rights and I'm not some anti-authority loony, I just hate power-trip people who treat my privacy like it is a privilege they are allowing me to have rather than a right that I will kill and die for. 



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    I don't think I'm a tough guy "fighting the system" but I don't have time for high-school dropout rent-a-cops who hassle me for no reason.

    I dislike being treated like a criminal by these guys. But I'm mostly annoyed when there are huge lines at the checkout, but the store still insists on wasting 2 employees. 1 checking bags that have just been carried away from the counter, and 1 telling everyone who enters "Welcome to Walmart". I don't want to be welcomed to walmart, I want someone to come over here and take my damn money.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    I don't think I'm a tough guy "fighting the system" but I don't have time for high-school dropout rent-a-cops who hassle me for no reason.  Everytime I've ignored them, told them I was in a hurry or even told them to fuck off and call the cops if they think I did something illegal, they were just conducting random searches and I'll be damned if I go along with that.  I am all for being co-operative with the police assuming they aren't trying to violate my basic rights and I'm not some anti-authority loony, I just hate power-trip people who treat my privacy like it is a privilege they are allowing me to have rather than a right that I will kill and die for. 
     

    The alternative attitude is "What is it costing me to let them look at my receipt?". That is my attitude. Who cares? Saying it violates your rights and freedom is a bit ridiculous. If they are going to make me stand in a 10 minute line to do it or require a strip search, then no, fuck them. But if I walk towards the door and there is an employee who asks if he can see my receipt, then I have no problem with that. It takes me 1 minute or less, tops.

    Having that kind of 'fuck off' attitude towards an employee (who is likely not the one who made the decision to check receipts in the first place) is pretty rude and snobbish.

    If I were the owner/manager of the store and I saw you treat my employee like that you would be promptly asked not to return to my store, and arrested upon being recognized for trespassing.

    Remember, that rent a cop is just trying to make a living too, and he isn't asking for your receipt because he is on a power trip, but more likely because it is store policy. If you feel like it is wrong, don't do business there and/or write a letter to the policy makers. 

    There is no reason to act that way towards someone who is just doing their job. In fact, if I were in a position where I had to be a rent a cop at a store, and you treated me like that, I would likely chase you down in the parking lot and beat the living shit out of you for it. Job and law be damned, because no one deserves to get treated like that when they are just doing their job.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    The alternative attitude is "What is it costing me to let them look at my receipt?". That is my attitude. Who cares?

    My time and patience.

     

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Saying it violates your rights and freedom is a bit ridiculous.

    It doesn't violate my legal rights to ask to see a receipt but it pisses me off to be randomly asked when there is no reason for them to believe I have committed a crime.

     

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Having that kind of 'fuck off' attitude towards an employee (who is likely not the one who made the decision to check receipts in the first place) is pretty rude and snobbish.

    I generally just pretend I don't hear or shout something like "No, sorry" or "In a real hurry today friend!"  I'd say the majority of people I see just ignore them when they ask for receipts and the employee hardly seems to care at all.  I've had a few security officers who acted rudely to me initially and I gave them the "no way" or "call the police if you think I broke the law" attitude.

     

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    If I were the owner/manager of the store and I saw you treat my employee like that you would be promptly asked not to return to my store, and arrested upon being recognized for trespassing.

    If you asked me to leave for ignoring or blowing-off random search requests, I would not want to do business with you further.  I would understand if I had truly acted like a jerk, but I never utilize first strike behavior when dealing with a courteous employee, I only retaliate when I am treated rudely.

     

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Remember, that rent a cop is just trying to make a living too, and he isn't asking for your receipt because he is on a power trip, but more likely because it is store policy. If you feel like it is wrong, don't do business there and/or write a letter to the policy makers.

    Some are on a power-trip some aren't.  Generally you can tell the difference in attitude and I just give the polite brush-off to the people who are just doing their job, reserving the harder tone for the obnoxious ones.  I certainly don't think most cops or security people are bad people who want to hassle me, but if you have never been hassled then you are lucky.

     

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    There is no reason to act that way towards someone who is just doing their job. In fact, if I were in a position where I had to be a rent a cop at a store, and you treated me like that, I would likely chase you down in the parking lot and beat the living shit out of you for it. Job and law be damned, because no one deserves to get treated like that when they are just doing their job.

    Bad idea, you never know who is armed and you should assume someone who is antagonistic to you won't be afraid to stick a knife in you.

     

    I never meant to imply I thought it was a good idea to actively treat a person who is just doing their job like shit.  I just dislike the annoying random searches and ignore them.  I have been stopped before because my phone fell out of my pocket onto a table at a store and I picked it up and put it back in.  I was approached 10 feet out the door by a man who asked what I had in my pocket.  I asked him why he wanted to know and he said he was with security and had seen me put something into my pocket.  In this case, I knew he was right to have his suspicions and I showed him I hadn't taken anything and he happily went about his business.  Now if he had just stopped me and wanted me to show him what was in my pockets without there being any reasonable justification for doing so, I'd tell him no and walk away.  At that point he may call the cops but most of the time the power-trip guys just go find someone else to hassle.  If he was rude to me, I'd be rude back and if he decided to throw a punch I'd be plenty sure to let him get the first one in before attempting to defend myself.  Whether I get my ass kicked by him or not, I'd press charges and file a suit immediately.



  • @SomebodyElse said:

    @morbiuswilters said:

    @Noser said:

    Card-signing isn't primarily an ID check. The card company tells vendors to insist on the signature because signing the card indicates acceptance of the cardholder contract. Without a signature attesting to the contract, you could theoretically make a legal claim that you never agreed to the interest rate/penalty structure/etc. of the card.

    If you are in the U.S., you are wrong wrong wrong.  Card-signing is an ID check.  In fact, the signature on the back is the only ID check required by law.  They can't even require you to produce a driver's license if you don't want to, so long as the card is signed.  Signing up for the card in the first place is acceptance of the card-holder contract and signing the receipt is acceptance of the charges.  The only reason the signature is required on the card is because it is the only form of ID required to use a credit card.  And, no, you cannot make a legal claim that you didn't "accept the contract" if you signed up for the card in the first fucking place.  That is just idiotic.

     I don't know what you are talking about. Look on the back of most credit cards in your wallet. Mine all state that the card is not valid unless signed, and most also state that by signing you agree to all rules and regulations issued by the card issuer.

     

     

     

    So if I don't sign my card and then use my card number on the internet I am not responsible for paying?? BRILLANT!! 



  • I don't understand people who argue that not signing a card makes it less prone to theft. If for some reason the thief can't manage to scribble over the "please see id" (and it's not like the scribble has to be readable, as this thread has shown), he'll either use it on the Internet or one of the many self-serve registers.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    Is there any sign of the US going over to Chip'n'pin any time soon, making this whole signature argument redundant? 



  • @poochner said:

    In the "blindly following policy" column, I've had a clerk ask for my photo ID when I was using a card with my photo on the front of it.  They did realize what they had done about the time I pulled my wallet out, at least.
     

     That reminds me of one situation in a German embassy somewhere abroad - I got a new passport, so I handed in my old one (which was duely punched and thus made invalid by the clerk), then he prepared my new one, but refused to hand it out unless I show him some "proof of identity"... luckily I still had my ID-Card to proof the guy in that passport was really me :-)



  • @Cap'n Steve said:

    I don't understand people who argue that not signing a card makes it less prone to theft. If for some reason the thief can't manage to scribble over the "please see id" (and it's not like the scribble has to be readable, as this thread has shown), he'll either use it on the Internet or one of the many self-serve registers.
     

    That is very true. No one said See ID is secure. But signing it serves NO purpose. See ID is one way to help make it slightly more of a hassle in line at a store for an unauthorized user.


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